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Author Topic: Faulty indicator circuit  (Read 3758 times)

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Entwood

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Faulty indicator circuit
« on: 03 October 2016, 17:54:33 »

Front offside indicator has stopped working, getting the typical rapid flashing of the rear one. I've changed the bulb (and the original was still ok anyway), and I've changed the relay, both to no avail. I've also disconnected the whole trailer system to remove it from the equation.

On most cars I'd now be looking at earth connections .. but the omega is a two wire system that disappears into a loom .. to go who knows where ... :(

Only thing I haven't attacked yet is the actual switch, does this actually connect to each lamp assembly as I would expect it to have a common feed to both ?? .. but I'm willing to be told differently !!

Tried to put a meter on the socket but its difficult to get a reading on a rapidly switching system, however comparing the two sides the offside seems to be supplying a much lower voltage than the nearside .. question is why ... :(

Any advice gratefully accepted as I'm a bit stumped now
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zirk

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #1 on: 03 October 2016, 18:01:25 »

Fairly sure its a common feed from the stalk, do the hazards works?

Stupid question I know but did you change the correct Relay.
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Andy H

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #2 on: 03 October 2016, 18:21:04 »

I think that the front and rear indicators alway flash together. If one works then the switch, flasher relay and hazard switch should therefore be OK and you need to be looking for a break in the wiring.
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #3 on: 03 October 2016, 20:24:26 »

Select hazards and offside front still does not work, but all others do, and at "normal" speed. Relay changed is certainly the correct one as if it is not fitted the indicators don't work at all !!

I accept it "might" be a wiring problem but why would that suddenly appear in the middle of a short trip into Gloucester to watch them lose to Bath ?? ! One roundabout it worked .. the next it didn't .... and hasn't ever since ....  :(
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RobG

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #4 on: 03 October 2016, 20:38:13 »

To eliminate grounding fault, run a wire from the ground side of indicator plug direct to negative terminal of battery.
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Bigron

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #5 on: 03 October 2016, 23:01:31 »

Nige, on "hazard" operation, there is sufficent lamp loading to achieve normal flash rate - and isn't it a different relay anyway?
I wonder why you are surprised at the sudden occurence of this fault because that is the way that most faults present themselves: one minute things work, the next minute they don't!
I agree with RobG about running a separate earth return wire, if for no other reason than to eliminate it, but I really feel that the positive feed to the bulb in question is suspect - or the bulb holder itself? Maybe even vibration breaking the feed wire somewhere, which would explain the sudden failure?

Ron.
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #6 on: 04 October 2016, 10:46:20 »

Thanks for the inputs .. keep 'em coming ...

AFAICT the relay is common, as removing it both hazards and normal indicators cease to function.

My confusion is over the fact that I have a small, and obviously insufficient voltage at the bulb, when a broken wire would surely give an "open circuit" ??

However, your comments have triggered a thought process ... and a minor memory .. of advice to "press the hazard switch many times".... if the indicators play up ... this has made no difference but removing the hazard switch stops the indicators working as well .. so the power to the indicators is obviously routed through the hazard switch, perhaps it has failed partially ....  off to the breakers to try and find one... I'll report back later ...if I can't find one then its a new one I guess .. I'll arrange a mortgage somewhere ....  :(
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Bigron

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #7 on: 04 October 2016, 13:09:26 »

When you measured that "small but insufficient voltage", was a bulb in circuit? The reason for the question is because a broken but not completely severed feed wire or dirty contact somewhere could give a high resistance at the fault area, losing most of your feed voltage across it.
Hope it's as simple as that!

Ron.
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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #8 on: 04 October 2016, 13:25:07 »

I once had a relay go bad in an 04 astra. It was one of GMs double jobbies where in the similar astra had 2 single relays

It would work on the right but had hesitant rapid flash on the left
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #9 on: 04 October 2016, 15:38:28 »

Eventually found a Hazard switch in the 4th scrappy I visited .. but it made no difference at all :(

Still not sure about the difference in voltage measured across the plug, so started doing comparisons offside/nearside, results being that the -ve line resistance of the offside plug is 3 times that of the nearside, so a bit of temporary wiring and it worked fine if an additional line was attached to the -ve line at the plug and connected directly to the chassis.

So the "bad earth" idea seems to be correct... well done to those who suggested it some while back !

I have now wired in a semi-permanent "bodge" in order to allow the car to be driven legally, but I'm not happy with it.

Haynes wiring diagrams show line 438 as the -ve line but gives no indication of where this attaches to any "earth" point on the chassis, or if it continues within a loom right back to the battery terminal. The fact I get a high resistance seems to indicate to me that there is no "break" in the line, but probably EITHER a loose connection or a corroded terminal somewhere.

As it is unlikely, IMHO, that Vx would give a dedicated earth point to a single bulb, the question is, what else is trying to earth via the same point, and so might also fail ?? or try and "back feed" through the indicator -ve up to my "bodged" earth point ?? which could overload the indicator wiring ??

Does anyone have any idea where the "earth" point for the indicator wire might be found ??
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Bigron

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #10 on: 04 October 2016, 16:45:01 »

I'm not sure that you need to worry too much about shared earths, Nige: critical components like ECUs will have their own dedicated earth return and non-critical items such as other bulbs will possibly show such "sharing" by having their light output modulated in sync. with the flasher - we've all been behind vehicles like that!
Check by leaving the flasher on and turning sidelights, stop lights etc., on in turn?
If no interaction, I feel that your unofficial Engineered solution might as well be permanent!

Ron.
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #11 on: 04 October 2016, 21:14:15 »

I'm not sure that you need to worry too much about shared earths, Nige: critical components like ECUs will have their own dedicated earth return and non-critical items such as other bulbs will possibly show such "sharing" by having their light output modulated in sync. with the flasher - we've all been behind vehicles like that!
Check by leaving the flasher on and turning sidelights, stop lights etc., on in turn?
If no interaction, I feel that your unofficial Engineered solution might as well be permanent!

Ron.

All done, and the tin-tent hitched up as well .. all appears to be working correctly, I just hope you're right as I can't see any other solution until I learn where the earth point actually is !!
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #12 on: 04 October 2016, 21:49:26 »

On the Br wire on the diagram will be an X followed by a number. This number is the earth point. ;)
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #13 on: 04 October 2016, 22:29:06 »

On the Br wire on the diagram will be an X followed by a number. This number is the earth point. ;)

mmmm .. can't see any such  .. :(  perhaps the Haynes wiring diagrams are "wrong" as they are the older cars.. all I see against track 438 is BR 0.75...... which I guess is the wire gauge. There is a little "1" at the base of the track but that's all.

EDIT:

Been playing with Autodata, and although it does NOT have wiring diagrams for the 3.2 .. on the 2.5 it shows that this light is earthed at "Earth Point 1" which is "Engine Bay, LH inner wing, near battery tray"  I'll have a look see tomorow and see what I can find ...

Thanks for the heads up and the seed of the idea ..  :y :y
« Last Edit: 04 October 2016, 22:48:47 by Entwood »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #14 on: 05 October 2016, 04:17:19 »

Give me 30 mins :y
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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #15 on: 05 October 2016, 04:55:28 »

OK, the 1 identifies the grounding point, in this case Body, Front Left. :y

Which, on the Omega is on the inner wing down from the battery tray...
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #16 on: 05 October 2016, 10:43:37 »

Many thanks for the confirmation .. appreciate it ..... BUT

what the **** are you doing on OOF at 4 o'clock in the morning !  There's a pillow that needs using at that time of day night !
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Bigron

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #17 on: 05 October 2016, 11:05:46 »

I wondered that, too..... :-X

Ron.
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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #18 on: 05 October 2016, 14:29:23 »

Many thanks for the confirmation .. appreciate it ..... BUT

what the **** are you doing on OOF at 4 o'clock in the morning !  There's a pillow that needs using at that time of day night !
Permanent nights :D

Just happenstance that my Omega wiring manual is in the car...
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Entwood

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Re: Faulty indicator circuit
« Reply #19 on: 05 October 2016, 17:13:58 »

Many thanks for the confirmation .. appreciate it ..... BUT

what the **** are you doing on OOF at 4 o'clock in the morning !  There's a pillow that needs using at that time of day night !
Permanent nights :D

Just happenstance that my Omega wiring manual is in the car...

:)

Underneath the battery tray there is certainly an earth stud/bolt with about 7 or 8 brown wires of normal size and what looks like one much bigger cable, as well as what looks like a large capacitor/choke ... with all the other stuff around (including LPG pipes) it is actually quite difficult to see/get to, so it will be another day when more time is available that I take things apart, and the battery out, in order to investigate.

Thanks for the help .. another lesson learned   :y :y
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