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Author Topic: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.  (Read 5105 times)

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Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« on: 25 August 2017, 06:13:32 »

Car is a 3.2 MV6 Auto Y Reg (Y474UGW) with 182K on the clock.

The failure is a loss of fluid, probably caused by cooking of pads due to it being seized.
The first I knew I had a problem was that the braked felt a little spongy coming through the Derbyshire dales, but I pulled into a petrol station in Buxton, to find smoke coming off the drivers side rear.
Took wheel off to find that there was fluid everywhere.

Now, there's now not much pad left, but the disk looks to have survived, but I am a little confused.

Should the 3.2 MV6 saloon have Solid or Vented rear discs ? It has solid ones now. But maybe it has the wrong ones?

If so how can I check that the caliper is designed for solid or vented - I was thinking that maybe someone swapped the calipers in the past, if not, then it has the wrong discs  :o

I bet there's a whole load of posts about this sort of thing, but I'm posting before I borrow a car to go to work, so no time to search. I need to decide which seal kit I order, or whether to buy a remanufactured caliper ?
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #1 on: 25 August 2017, 06:40:32 »

3.2 should have vented discs on the rear, if not and the calipers haven't been changed as well then the pistons can travel too far.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #2 on: 25 August 2017, 06:51:00 »

So when I go and look, how can I tell which caliper is fitted? It should be as simple as measuring the width of the gap between the 2 inside faces shouldn't it ?

If the pads are very worn, due to some seizing that would explain the fluid loss, but not the obvious overheating (due to something sticking I assume. 
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #3 on: 25 August 2017, 08:51:56 »

You cannot fit non vented calipers on vented disc's.

If it has vented disc's on the back, and is losing fluid, I would assume the seal is gone.

If it has solid rear discs, then the piston has popped out, and you will need new discs (vented).
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #4 on: 25 August 2017, 08:57:12 »

Right ho. I've been out and had a good look. DEFINATELY the Calipers are designed for a vented disc (but it has solid discs and the pad once on the outer piston side has got jammed between disc and caliper, causing the heat, and cooking. and the piston has come out past the seals.


The opposing piston is fine as they designed it so that half the caliper is the same as the solid set up.


It might be that I can get away without new seals. There is a 42 on the caliper which I think refers to the piston diameter?

Having pushed piston back in and put a spacer in, and operated the brakes, it does not seem to leak.

Maybe I should fit new seals.

Anyway I now need to source vented discs and pads and pins and maybe a seal kit.

(and brake cleaner)

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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #5 on: 25 August 2017, 09:31:29 »

Yep, has happened before when solid disks have been incorrectly fitted. Good job you noticed it before the brakes failed completely. :y

Pins and spring clips for the wider vented calipers are almost impossible to find now, and 99% of the time, if you purchase them, what will actually be supplied are the shorter pins for the unvented caliper. I would try to re-use the pins you have.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #6 on: 25 August 2017, 09:58:55 »

Indeed. Lookers Vauxhall liverpool want me to come in and pay before they'll order the discs. and they say pads, pins and seals not stocked anywhere in europe.  :(

I have therefore ordered Pads and discs off Euro car Parts to arrive NEXT thursday (Not stocked in store) and a pin kit and 42 mm seal kit off BIGGRED. I know the pin kit will be too short but They list it as Right for my car so worth the risk?
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #7 on: 25 August 2017, 10:00:34 »

Yep, has happened before when solid disks have been incorrectly fitted. Good job you noticed it before the brakes failed completely. :y



Yeah, just before I drove over the hills past the Cat and Fiddle.  :-[ I got home at stupid o clock as RAC are not erm quick. 2.5 hours to arrive.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #8 on: 25 August 2017, 10:28:37 »

Indeed. Lookers Vauxhall liverpool want me to come in and pay before they'll order the discs. and they say pads, pins and seals not stocked anywhere in europe.  :(

I have therefore ordered Pads and discs off Euro car Parts to arrive NEXT thursday (Not stocked in store) and a pin kit and 42 mm seal kit off BIGGRED. I know the pin kit will be too short but They list it as Right for my car so worth the risk?

Sure they are vented? Had issues before with ECP giving solid discs for rears.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #9 on: 25 August 2017, 10:32:40 »

Yep, has happened before when solid disks have been incorrectly fitted. Good job you noticed it before the brakes failed completely. :y



Yeah, just before I drove over the hills past the Cat and Fiddle.  :-[ I got home at stupid o clock as RAC are not erm quick. 2.5 hours to arrive.
Not the ideal road to suffer a brake failure.  :o
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #10 on: 25 August 2017, 11:17:19 »

Yep, has happened before when solid disks have been incorrectly fitted. Good job you noticed it before the brakes failed completely. :y

Pins and spring clips for the wider vented calipers are almost impossible to find now, and 99% of the time, if you purchase them, what will actually be supplied are the shorter pins for the unvented caliper. I would try to re-use the pins you have.
I have to disagree.

If I were a betting man, the person who stupidly fitted the solid discs could easily have fitted a solid spring kit, exacerbating the issue.

You have a simple choice to make...

1. Buy vented discs and the individual pins and springs (VX only and about £45 for both sides).

2. Keep your solid discs and buy refurbished solid calipers (vented not available) and buy a new solid pin kit for around £5.

Your choice, but using the car in its current state is criminally stupid, not to mention dangerous.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #11 on: 25 August 2017, 11:37:38 »

Vauxhall dealer says pins no longer available at all in Europe EVER.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #12 on: 25 August 2017, 11:39:20 »

.. but the solid pins wouldn't be long enough to fit the caliper anyway, so the long pins were probably re-used last time.

Depends what's actually fitted to the car, which we don't know. The car is supposed to have vented disks, however, so downgrading it to solid disks is something I'd personally avoid. Although we know it would work, it would certainly be a modification that you'd have to declare to your insurers.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #13 on: 25 August 2017, 11:40:30 »

Podster, I hope you used the ECP 37% off code HOLIDAY37 when you ordered ? if not cancel and reorder
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #14 on: 25 August 2017, 12:36:10 »

If you happen to have a receipt from a garage for fitting the rear brakes, contact a solicitor.  ;)
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #15 on: 25 August 2017, 14:32:02 »

Podster, I hope you used the ECP 37% off code HOLIDAY37 when you ordered ? if not cancel and reorder

I used something that got me £56 off. Never paid full inflated price as EPC or GSF yet.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #16 on: 25 August 2017, 14:36:41 »

Indeed. Lookers Vauxhall liverpool want me to come in and pay before they'll order the discs. and they say pads, pins and seals not stocked anywhere in europe.  :(

I have therefore ordered Pads and discs off Euro car Parts to arrive NEXT thursday (Not stocked in store) and a pin kit and 42 mm seal kit off BIGGRED. I know the pin kit will be too short but They list it as Right for my car so worth the risk?

Sure they are vented? Had issues before with ECP giving solid discs for rears.

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Vauxhall_Omega_3.2_2001/p/car-parts/regular-service/car-service-parts/brake-discs/?104720258&1&6e6187cb18a25dd67f9eac16ebffdd9f667fb49b&000027

 it says they are vented.  So they better had be or I'm going off on a rant.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #17 on: 25 August 2017, 14:40:06 »

Yep, has happened before when solid disks have been incorrectly fitted. Good job you noticed it before the brakes failed completely. :y

Pins and spring clips for the wider vented calipers are almost impossible to find now, and 99% of the time, if you purchase them, what will actually be supplied are the shorter pins for the unvented caliper. I would try to re-use the pins you have.
I have to disagree.

If I were a betting man, the person who stupidly fitted the solid discs could easily have fitted a solid spring kit, exacerbating the issue.

You have a simple choice to make...

1. Buy vented discs and the individual pins and springs (VX only and about £45 for both sides).

2. Keep your solid discs and buy refurbished solid calipers (vented not available) and buy a new solid pin kit for around £5.

Your choice, but using the car in its current state is criminally stupid, not to mention dangerous.

Apart from Length is there any other difference ? I only ask because I have a couple of tool makers I deal with professionally who'd be happy to machine a piece of stainless bar to the right length and diameter if if comes to it. 
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #18 on: 25 August 2017, 14:46:18 »

A length of bar with a split pin through a hole in each end would do the job and be simple to fabricate.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #19 on: 25 August 2017, 14:46:48 »

The pins are a different length but otherwise identical, AFAIK.
The spring clip (the bit that always disintegrates around the rivet) is also a different width (just the central 'vertical' section, IIRC) and can lodge between the pads on a vented setup if the non-vented version is used.

Pins could be machined in short order - IIRC Nick W has posted elsewhere precisely how he'd make a set if you can find it. I can't as my search fu is weak!
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #20 on: 25 August 2017, 21:09:06 »

If the pins are us, and you cannot get a decent s/h set or a new set(wanted ad in relevant section).

Then get a pair of large long split pins, one in from one side, one in from other side, splat ends, then cross lockwire. 

It's a system that was used on girling race calipers for years.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #21 on: 25 August 2017, 23:17:59 »

I have several classic Triumphs from the 60's and 70's, all of which use split pins to retain the front pads along with two spring steel clips not dissimilar to those on the rear pads of the Omega.
Whether the original pins or split pins are used, as long as the correct spring clip is used for the pads in question, I don't see why they shouldn't work.
The split pins in question have a flatter eye which I presume reduces any likelihood of the eye pulling through the hole in the caliper. If they are a comfortable diameter to fit the hole but without being too tight, and cut to the appropriate length with approx 10mm excess to splay over without fouling any other component if it rotates slightly, then I would argue they would be a satisfactory alternative.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #22 on: 28 August 2017, 15:42:35 »

I was expecting the new discs and pads from Euro Car parts to be delivered Thursday, but they came this morning. Padgid and Brembro repectively and on  Saturdayy Biggred delivered the seal kit and pin and spring kit.


I'd already checked that once I got the piston back into place there was no leakage, so no need for the seal kit.


So The first big headache was getting the handbrake adjuster to adjust (who designed that shit idea ?) to allow the disc to be removed.

Then The Pins WERE definitely wrong. 
As were the spring clips
So I had to use the old parts GRR.


But then I couldn't get it to go back together.  Could I get the pins to line up straight?


Eventually I worked out that the Brembo pads had slots which were about 0.75mm too far one way, so I was forced to get a round needle file out and fettle them. Once that was done, It all went back together right. I bleed that side, adjusted as best I could the hand brake through the little hole in the disc and then moved onto the other side. I got it all back together but realised that I hadn't taken enough off the the slots so one side was binding, so out with the Pads and a bit more fettling. Then bleed that side.


That was quicker and then I went out for a drive.


Seems fine. Handbrake is a bit high for my liking, but I'll let it bed in and have another adjustment next week.


Now to return incorrect parts.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #23 on: 28 August 2017, 17:32:35 »

Which is (one, out of many reasons) why I always use GM pads. £10 a set delivered, albeit with the wrong pins, I fail to see why nobody else does.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #24 on: 29 August 2017, 21:38:38 »

Which is (one, out of many reasons) why I always use GM pads. £10 a set delivered, albeit with the wrong pins, I fail to see why nobody else does.

Vauxall Dealer (Lookers Liverpool) said "NLA" (or was it "NLS" ?) - hence choosing to order off euro crap parts.

Anyway I sent the picture and GM part number from this post http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1821673#new to autovaux, who emailed me back to say they got their supplier to measure the parts and they match the picture, so I have order a set.

A mate also offered to make up a set out of 6mm diameter ground silver steel, if they arrive and they are not right. 
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #25 on: 30 August 2017, 09:08:56 »

who did you send the pictures to? what supplier
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #26 on: 30 August 2017, 09:17:41 »

who did you send the pictures to? what supplier

It's in his post:

Anyway I sent the picture and GM part number from this post http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1821673#new to autovaux, who emailed me back to say they got their supplier to measure the parts and they match the picture, so I have order a set.

http://www.autovaux.co.uk/
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #27 on: 30 August 2017, 10:00:38 »


Anyway I sent the picture and GM part number from this post http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1821673#new to autovaux, who emailed me back to say they got their supplier to measure the parts and they match the picture, so I have order a set.

A mate also offered to make up a set out of 6mm diameter ground silver steel, if they arrive and they are not right.


The originals are only mild steel, so silver steel isn't really necessary. It's not very good in bending either.
Replacement pins to an existing pattern shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes per pin on a lathe to reduce the smaller diameter and turn a groove for the spring clip. Then it's just a matter of forming the other end with a hammer.


I would go with Trev's suggestion of split pins if you can easily find any long enough
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #28 on: 30 August 2017, 17:11:28 »

Vauxall Dealer (Lookers Liverpool) said "NLA" (or was it "NLS" ?) - hence choosing to order off euro crap parts.

That's because a guy not far from here bought up all the stock, and flogs 'em £10 delivered :)
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #29 on: 30 August 2017, 17:34:12 »

I should wake up before posting :y
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #30 on: 02 September 2017, 16:45:38 »

New pins and spring clips arrived.

And they actually fit.

One tip before assembly is to squeeze the split spring at the end of the pin with a pair of pliers because they will never go in otherwise.

Also learnt that I need to assemble without the spring clips, push the pistons right back and check the pads are free to actually move.  The fettling I had done last week was just not quite enough and didn't move freely so the slots on the pads needed just a little extra removing.

I also took the opportunity to change the oil and filter.   
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #31 on: 02 September 2017, 17:39:21 »

Thats very good news. I think many on here will be bying some of them then. From autovaux you say. Do you have a part number to search for. Cheers.
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #32 on: 02 September 2017, 20:26:09 »

Thats very good news. I think many on here will be bying some of them then. From autovaux you say. Do you have a part number to search for. Cheers.

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=127928.msg1821673#new 

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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #33 on: 03 September 2017, 11:53:51 »

do you have a part number for the autovaux items. when you search on their site it always comes up as no parts listed
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #34 on: 03 September 2017, 14:16:08 »

do you have a part number for the autovaux items. when you search on their site it always comes up as no parts listed
You're searching wrong ::)

Look for split pins of around 100mm in length and circa 6mm diameter :y
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Re: Rear Brakes Refurb advice needed.
« Reply #35 on: 03 September 2017, 15:37:45 »

do you have a part number for the autovaux items. when you search on their site it always comes up as no parts listed

I actually got them from a sister company to autovaux


0044 (0)1924 635111
www.genuinepartsearch.co.uk
janet@hscomponents.co.uk
sales@genuinepartsearch.co.uk


 
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