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[STEMO]

Some interesting charts here. Only guesswork though, no matter how factual they might appear:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5747104

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Romour has it that slim Phil is going to give diesel a 'bit of a kicking' in his speech.

[Viral_Jim]

1p/litre has been mooted.

I'll have to see if the Mrs has a spare 65p a week she can lend me.   

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

1p/litre has been mooted.

I'll have to see if the Mrs has a spare 65p a week she can lend me.   

Thin end of the wedge, Mr Jimmy.

This is just the start.

[Viral_Jim]

I don't doubt it, not for a second. Which is why the Ovlov is the last diesel I will buy. However I suspect direct attacks on cars like mine will be financially immaterial. The Gov't will go after new car sales, and company car drivers.

Too big a hike in fuel duty will put the dampners on our road based economy and over the time horizon of my Volvo ownership (4yrs max), splitting commercial and domestic diesel is unrealistic, and doesn't fit the eco-narrative.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I don't doubt it, not for a second. Which is why the Ovlov is the last diesel I will buy. However I suspect direct attacks on cars like mine will be financially immaterial. The Gov't will go after new car sales, and company car drivers.

Too big a hike in fuel duty will put the dampners on our road based economy and over the time horizon of my Volvo ownership (4yrs max), splitting commercial and domestic diesel is unrealistic, and doesn't fit the eco-narrative.

It will.

Perhaps Elon Musk will convert the haulage industry from derv to electric trucks which can go from 0-60 in 5 seconds.

[Kevin Wood]

I don't doubt it, not for a second. Which is why the Ovlov is the last diesel I will buy. However I suspect direct attacks on cars like mine will be financially immaterial. The Gov't will go after new car sales, and company car drivers.

Too big a hike in fuel duty will put the dampners on our road based economy and over the time horizon of my Volvo ownership (4yrs max), splitting commercial and domestic diesel is unrealistic, and doesn't fit the eco-narrative.

It will.

Perhaps Elon Musk will convert the haulage industry from derv to electric trucks which can go from 0-60 in 5 seconds.

.. and all the lights will go out.

[aaronjb]

.. and all the lights will go out.

Well, that's going to happen anyway when we are driven from reliable, useful fuel sources for power stations like nuclear and on to "renewables" ..

[Viral_Jim]

.. and all the lights will go out.

Well, that's going to happen anyway when we are driven from reliable, useful fuel sources for power stations like nuclear and on to "renewables" ..

Maybe sooner than you think. An extra £100m for "Plug-in car grant" - another scrappage scheme maybe? 

[aaronjb]

.. and all the lights will go out.

Well, that's going to happen anyway when we are driven from reliable, useful fuel sources for power stations like nuclear and on to "renewables" ..

Maybe sooner than you think. An extra £100m for "Plug-in car grant" - another scrappage scheme maybe? 

Indeed - I notice all the plug in points that appeared outside a certain employer; usually populated by large Mercedes "plug in Hybrids" and the Tesla..

[Viral_Jim]

Yup, I reckon that merc can just about make It out of the car park under its own batter power  .

Guy in my team has just picked up a new i3 which you'll probably start to see around

[Kevin Wood]

Yup, I reckon that merc can just about make It out of the car park under its own batter power  .

Guy in my team has just picked up a new i3 which you'll probably start to see around

Yes, seeing quite a few of them. Not sure what to make of them, really - except the standard fit tyres look like space-savers! I'm guessing they don't take well to "spirited" driving? 

[aaronjb]

Yes, seeing quite a few of them. Not sure what to make of them, really - except the standard fit tyres look like space-savers! I'm guessing they don't take well to "spirited" driving? 

Actually felt a lot like driving the (new) MX5..

[Kevin Wood]

Yes, seeing quite a few of them. Not sure what to make of them, really - except the standard fit tyres look like space-savers! I'm guessing they don't take well to "spirited" driving? 

Actually felt a lot like driving the (new) MX5..

In a good way, or a bad way?

[aaronjb]

That depends if you like the new MX5 Very pointy, nimble, decent turn of pace but not going to set the world on fire in terms of outright speed - I imagine the extremely low COG helps (all the batteries live under your feet), and the typically too-firm BMW suspension makes it feel more gokart like.

[iansoutham]

I drive an i3 most days in work.

They understeer like mad if you push them and if you turn the TC off (it is hidden in the menus, not a button) it will drift nicely up to the point it feels like it will fall over.

They are the future, whether we like it or not.

[Viral_Jim]

I had one for an hour.

It doesn't drive have it looks it would (thankfully) and was more fun than I thought it would be. Ultimately, ride was too hard and seats not comfortable enough for the daily grind imho.

[Kevin Wood]

I had one for an hour.

It doesn't drive have it looks it would (thankfully) and was more fun than I thought it would be. Ultimately, ride was too hard and seats not comfortable enough for the daily grind imho.

Standard BMW features, then.

I guess they aren't as top-heavy as they look thanks to the batteries. 

[Viral_Jim]

Yup!

If I were picking an electric commuter I'd probably take the ioniq (once the longer rangebone lands in 2018). There were some hard plastics on the door cards, but the standard car has everything I would want (leather and heated rear seats are the only options) and it was very comfortable indeed. New leaf is a good option too, again generous kit and very comfortable.

Once I've moved house I'll be considering electric. My commute will be around 120miles round trip. Meaning I'll be able to charge the car only at work which is free, plus an hour in the morning so it's all pre heated on a cold morning 

The way I worked it out, compared to a diesel doing 48mpg (my Volvo in this case) an electric would be around £90 pcm more over 4 years (approximate duration of the battery/motor warranties) i wouldn't have to service it myself and there are no hidden costs.

As a tool for going to work and back, the arguments are compelling.

[Varche]

Yup!

If I were picking an electric commuter I'd probably take the ioniq (once the longer rangebone lands in 2018). There were some hard plastics on the door cards, but the standard car has everything I would want (leather and heated rear seats are the only options) and it was very comfortable indeed. New leaf is a good option too, again generous kit and very comfortable.

Once I've moved house I'll be considering electric. My commute will be around 120miles round trip. Meaning I'll be able to charge the car only at work which is free, plus an hour in the morning so it's all pre heated on a cold morning 

The way I worked it out, compared to a diesel doing 48mpg (my Volvo in this case) an electric would be around £90 pcm more over 4 years (approximate duration of the battery/motor warranties) i wouldn't have to service it myself and there are no hidden costs.

As a tool for going to work and back, the arguments are compelling.

Therein lies the rub. Once companies realise how much it is costing , it will be pass cost on to their customers or charge their staff.

[Viral_Jim]

Indeed, although at around 3.5p/mile (not including an off-peak rate discount) its not a large cost even if I were to foot the bill myself.

[redelitev6]

We had the Nissan Leaf at work , surprisingly quick off the mark and decent performance but never saw more than 100 miles on the range indicator and winter driving used to suck the power away at a pretty rapid rate

[Doctor Gollum]

Three Leaves at work... charged every couple of days. Their primary redeeming feature is that they save us from ferrying the management around

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I'm old school. I refuse to drive a milk float*.

*I may make an exception for a Tesla P100D

[aaronjb]

Yup, I reckon that merc can just about make It out of the car park under its own batter power  .

Guy in my team has just picked up a new i3 which you'll probably start to see around

Does the reg end "SFE"? If so I'm currently parked three cars away from it ..

[Viral_Jim]

That's the one. Sorry, didn't see you, I was up in the other building (the 60's concrete and asbestos monstrosity)

[aaronjb]

  They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit.. Do you park outside the weird mostly empty warehouse thing (at the corner of the road into Rye Hill House) by any chance? </stalker>

[Kevin Wood]

They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit..

Blimey! Says the man who used to live in Bracknell.

[TheBoy]

Once I've moved house I'll be considering electric. My commute will be around 120miles round trip. Meaning I'll be able to charge the car only at work which is free, plus an hour in the morning so it's all pre heated on a cold morning 

120m range probably won't be achievable every day, and remember every time you take more than 50% from the battery, you kill it's capacity a little.

[Viral_Jim]

They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit.. Do you park outside the weird mostly empty warehouse thing (at the corner of the road into Rye Hill House) by any chance? </stalker>

Used to, yes. I now park on the post-apocalyptic waste ground on the other side of the road 

120m range probably won't be achievable every day, and remember every time you take more than 50% from the battery, you kill it's capacity a little.

True, real world range (i.e. None of that NDEC bobbins) is about 150m. So yes, 120rpund trip won't be achievable all the time, but I figure with a bit of charging at home it will be doable with minimum spend from me. That said, if I end up somewhere with easy lpg access. An omega or v6 vec/signum maybe a good option. I really would like an auto, and comethong with a bit more urgency wouldn't go amiss

[Doctor Gollum]

If you're moving to Cambodia , then lpg is probably out

[tunnie]

They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit.. Do you park outside the weird mostly empty warehouse thing (at the corner of the road into Rye Hill House) by any chance? </stalker>

Used to, yes. I now park on the post-apocalyptic waste ground on the other side of the road 

120m range probably won't be achievable every day, and remember every time you take more than 50% from the battery, you kill it's capacity a little.

True, real world range (i.e. None of that NDEC bobbins) is about 150m. So yes, 120rpund trip won't be achievable all the time, but I figure with a bit of charging at home it will be doable with minimum spend from me. That said, if I end up somewhere with easy lpg access. An omega or v6 vec/signum maybe a good option. I really would like an auto, and comethong with a bit more urgency wouldn't go amiss

Best call i've made in a while was to make my 3.2 auto my commuter, was shattered this morning. Crappy drive too, M25 screwed so through Hounslow it was. I hate driving through it! But auto made it all effortless 

I wish I could delete the fuel computer info though, ignorance would be bliss, 22mpg average less so 

[VXL V6]

They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit.. Do you park outside the weird mostly empty warehouse thing (at the corner of the road into Rye Hill House) by any chance? </stalker>

Used to, yes. I now park on the post-apocalyptic waste ground on the other side of the road 

120m range probably won't be achievable every day, and remember every time you take more than 50% from the battery, you kill it's capacity a little.

True, real world range (i.e. None of that NDEC bobbins) is about 150m. So yes, 120rpund trip won't be achievable all the time, but I figure with a bit of charging at home it will be doable with minimum spend from me. That said, if I end up somewhere with easy lpg access. An omega or v6 vec/signum maybe a good option. I really would like an auto, and comethong with a bit more urgency wouldn't go amiss

Best call i've made in a while was to make my 3.2 auto my commuter, was shattered this morning. Crappy drive too, M25 screwed so through Hounslow it was. I hate driving through it! But auto made it all effortless 

I wish I could delete the fuel computer info though, ignorance would be bliss, 22mpg average less so 

You need to get it LPG'd.... As do I need to do one of mine!

[tunnie]

They're all fairly monstrous, but that one does take the biscuit.. Do you park outside the weird mostly empty warehouse thing (at the corner of the road into Rye Hill House) by any chance? </stalker>

Used to, yes. I now park on the post-apocalyptic waste ground on the other side of the road 

120m range probably won't be achievable every day, and remember every time you take more than 50% from the battery, you kill it's capacity a little.

True, real world range (i.e. None of that NDEC bobbins) is about 150m. So yes, 120rpund trip won't be achievable all the time, but I figure with a bit of charging at home it will be doable with minimum spend from me. That said, if I end up somewhere with easy lpg access. An omega or v6 vec/signum maybe a good option. I really would like an auto, and comethong with a bit more urgency wouldn't go amiss

Best call i've made in a while was to make my 3.2 auto my commuter, was shattered this morning. Crappy drive too, M25 screwed so through Hounslow it was. I hate driving through it! But auto made it all effortless 

I wish I could delete the fuel computer info though, ignorance would be bliss, 22mpg average less so 

You need to get it LPG'd.... As do I need to do one of mine!

I want to, but I still cannot get the numbers to work. Even at a crappy 22mpg, I'm spending around ~£140/m on fuel. So LPG would give me 40% saving = £55 or so in savings.

I think all in to do the conversion would be around £1.2k, once added in all the little odds/sods, fuel back and forth to Brackley and little bits the eBay kits don't have. Plus compensate the time of people who would potentially assist (beers + curry) - then on top the certification.

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Are you on good terms with anyone who runs a restaurant ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-190D-Deisel-1994-One-Owner-No-Reserve-One-owner-Mot-04-18/222731232557?hash=item33dbd0e52d:g:Aq8AAOSwb3laChsA

3 years to earn back the purchase price, but it will probably be worth more in three years time than it is now.
If local fuel supplies are a bit thin on the ground, theres always ebay. 
Its a bit expensive at 35p per litre. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WVO-Waste-or-Used-Vegetable-Oil-20-Litres/162775148019?hash=item25e627a5f3:g:khMAAOSwidlZY8So

[Viral_Jim]

Yeah, lpg payback is long at that cost - may as well not have the bother!

For me OTOH, at close to £600pcm @22mpg, the payback would be rather sooner 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Yeah, lpg payback is long at that cost - may as well not have the bother!

For me OTOH, at close to £600pcm @22mpg, the payback would be rather sooner 

Christ Jimmy, you must be making a serious dent in the national debt with your contributions to the Treasury. 
In fact you could take up my suggestion to Tunnie, but buy this one instead. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-190D-2-5-AUTOMATIC-62500miles-Leather-A-C-1992/152361514488?hash=item23797435f8:g:R-wAAOSw~G1Z3Scc

[TheBoy]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

[VXL V6]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

What's even worse is I have the kit but I just haven't quite got round to fitting it, I nearly have at least twice but but but.....

[TheBoy]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

What's even worse is I have the kit but I just haven't quite got round to fitting it, I nearly have at least twice but but but.....

Get on with it!

[tunnie]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

Until now, I needed the boot practicality. Many a family trip boot was rammed!

Zafira means no need now.

Might just put the conversation cost into savings for XF-S in a few years.

[tunnie]

Are you on good terms with anyone who runs a restaurant ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-190D-Deisel-1994-One-Owner-No-Reserve-One-owner-Mot-04-18/222731232557?hash=item33dbd0e52d:g:Aq8AAOSwb3laChsA

3 years to earn back the purchase price, but it will probably be worth more in three years time than it is now.
If local fuel supplies are a bit thin on the ground, theres always ebay. 
Its a bit expensive at 35p per litre. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WVO-Waste-or-Used-Vegetable-Oil-20-Litres/162775148019?hash=item25e627a5f3:g:khMAAOSwidlZY8So

Are a few around here... would need to be auto though. Think I would miss 3.2’s grunt!

[Kevin Wood]

Are you on good terms with anyone who runs a restaurant ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-190D-Deisel-1994-One-Owner-No-Reserve-One-owner-Mot-04-18/222731232557?hash=item33dbd0e52d:g:Aq8AAOSwb3laChsA

3 years to earn back the purchase price, but it will probably be worth more in three years time than it is now.
If local fuel supplies are a bit thin on the ground, theres always ebay. 
Its a bit expensive at 35p per litre. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WVO-Waste-or-Used-Vegetable-Oil-20-Litres/162775148019?hash=item25e627a5f3:g:khMAAOSwidlZY8So

Are a few around here... would need to be auto though. Think I would miss 3.2’s grunt!

Yeah - he forgot to mention that it's quicker to walk.

[Doctor Gollum]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

What's even worse is I have the kit but I just haven't quite got round to fitting it, I nearly have at least twice but but but.....

Especially as the front end is pretty much done

[Viral_Jim]

Yeah, lpg payback is long at that cost - may as well not have the bother!

For me OTOH, at close to £600pcm @22mpg, the payback would be rather sooner 

Christ Jimmy, you must be making a serious dent in the national debt with your contributions to the Treasury. 
In fact you could take up my suggestion to Tunnie, but buy this one instead. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-190D-2-5-AUTOMATIC-62500miles-Leather-A-C-1992/152361514488?hash=item23797435f8:g:R-wAAOSw~G1Z3Scc

Ha! As it is, I spend about £80 a week as I achieve about 47mpg week in week out. Hence why I don't entertain anything other than a derv drinker.

[VXL V6]

At £55/m savings, that's just under 2 years pay-back time. 

Had you done it 5 or 6 years ago,

a) the kits were stupidly cheap
b) it would have already paid for itself several times over, and you wouldn't even be mentioning LPG, because you wouldn't care


Not a dig, and don't take as such, as I too regretted not doing mine so much earlier.  I too thought I needed the boot. Reality was, there were always other options for those rare occasions you do.

What's even worse is I have the kit but I just haven't quite got round to fitting it, I nearly have at least twice but but but.....

Especially as the front end is pretty much done

Modified the loom slightly for the front end to allow me to run some of it a slightly different way  In truth it'll probably be fitted on the project car (The black 3.2) so I don't have to take the daily driver off the road and can take my time.

[Doctor Gollum]

Ah, OK

Still not sure what a comethong is though

[ronnyd]

Reports around this evening that we have agreed a 57 billion "divorce" settlement.  Anyone else heard this?

[Doctor Gollum]

Reports around this evening that we have agreed a 57 billion "divorce" settlement.  Anyone else heard this?

Dismissed with a hefty dose of avian bacon

The upper and lower numbers change with each news bulletin 

[Sir Tigger KC]

There's alot of speculation in the press because none of them know for sure what's going on. 

The Guardian is reporting that the UK has agreed a gross figure of £89 billion, but The Express say Mrs May will reject a demand for £55 billion and is preparing to walk away! 

[Entwood]

Not one of the mainstream TV news outlets evens mentions it at the moment .. ... so ... make of that what you wish .. but seems the "written" press has, once again, gone for "making" news headlines rather than "reporting" the news that is actually happening ..

[Varche]

That is one of my gripes with uk tv. The News hardly ever reports news but spends ages speculating. Gone are the days of  the News being just honest facts. Ican hear Laura Kuensberg rehearsing her spiel already

My gut feeling is no matter how much Britain offers it will never be enough.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Are you on good terms with anyone who runs a restaurant ?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-190D-Deisel-1994-One-Owner-No-Reserve-One-owner-Mot-04-18/222731232557?hash=item33dbd0e52d:g:Aq8AAOSwb3laChsA

3 years to earn back the purchase price, but it will probably be worth more in three years time than it is now.
If local fuel supplies are a bit thin on the ground, theres always ebay. 
Its a bit expensive at 35p per litre. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WVO-Waste-or-Used-Vegetable-Oil-20-Litres/162775148019?hash=item25e627a5f3:g:khMAAOSwidlZY8So

Are a few around here... would need to be auto though. Think I would miss 3.2’s grunt!

Yeah - he forgot to mention that it's quicker to walk.

Its quite fun in its own peculiar way tbh. They handle quite well, so the trick is to get up to speed and just keep your right foot planted no matter what.
My 17 mile commute takes the same time whether I use the 190 or the 3.2. 
Autos are more common than manuals btw. Its unbelievably cheap motoring, with the added benefit of a decent owners forum.

[Varche]

So we wake up to a media frenzy of speculation ( no facts) that we have agreed a divorce bill maybe as high as 100 billion euros.! Some speculation that it is gross or net! Does that mean we have to pay tax too on it?

If we end upwith a no deal because of say No agreement on Irish border or over trade it is to be hoped that the up to 100 billion deal can be negated.

Also interesting was the report that said it was impossible to put an actual figure on the UK liabilities as no one knows. Deja Vu methinks.

I wonder if weak and wobbly will hold a press conference soon?

[Sir Tigger KC]

I doubt that we'll ever know exactly how much the divorce bill will be. 

[Varche]

I doubt that we'll ever know exactly how much the divorce bill will be. 

Well 5 billion will go straight to Hungary. They consume their development grants(our money) faster than they can be sent!!

[Kevin Wood]

Ah, OK

Still not sure what a comethong is though

Doesn't sound like you want to, TBH.

[TheBoy]

Laura Kuensberg

Now that's a depressing fugly that needs smacking in the face with a cricket bat...   ...only somebody clearly already has.


I bet even Lord Opti wouldn't shag it, and we know how unfussy he is

[STEMO]

I’m sure we’ll come to an agreement over money, but I just can’t see how we’re going to solve the Irish border problems.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

What problems ? All interested parties want it to remain an open border so it shouldn't be much of a problem.
Hand them an agreement which says something like - "The UK Govt. will commit to keeping the border open on the proviso that the Dublin Govt. take responsibility to prevent illegal immigration at the border, to prevent terrorists popping over the border to commit atrocities as they used to, and to prevent the smuggling problem from becoming much more severe than it always has been.
If the Dublin Govt. fails in its undertaking in these matters, the UK Govt. reserves the right to take measures to protect the UK and its citizens".
There ya go.Job done. 
Its actually a red herring. The EU are using it as a shit stirrer to create a problem among the disagreeing parties in the UK, and Dublin are more than willing to help, as it not only helps the EU cause, but gives them a glimmer of hope of driving a wedge between Norn Irn and Great Britain. An opportunity that they will never turn down.
The veiled treat of the issue derailing "the peace process" and thus returning to the murder and maiming of the past is nothing short of sick, and those in Brussels, Dublin, Belfast and Westminster who are indulging in it should be ashamed of themselves, except they are the kind of worthless specimens who are beyond shame.
Whatever the outcome, it wont affect the "peace process", for the same reasons the process came about in the first place.

[STEMO]

I can’t see it, Albs. It’s a foreign country with different language, currency and laws.

[Doctor Gollum]

I can’t see it, Albs. It’s a foreign country with different language, currency and laws.

Like Scotland you mean... 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

It doesn't really have a different language, but I agree its a foreign country and we should have a proper border between it and the UK. However, all the interested parties on all sides of the debate want it to be as close to borderless as possible, so it shouldnt be that difficult to work it out.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I’m sure we’ll come to an agreement over money, but I just can’t see how we’re going to solve the Irish border problems.

It's obvious. Free and frictionless trade. 

Nobody can say what sort of controls are needed at the Irish border until we know what the terms of trade are. The EU and their puppets the Irish government's demand that the border is free and open, before the negotiations move on to trade is completely absurd!! 

Unless of course they have no intention of entering into a comprehensive free trade agreement with the UK, once they've secured the cash, an open border with Ireland and continued jurisdiction of the ECJ!

[STEMO]

I would like to see an open border but, come on, can we really say we can stop anyone who wants to get here from Europe from just walking in?

[STEMO]

I can’t see it, Albs. It’s a foreign country with different language, currency and laws.

Like Scotland you mean... 

Since when was Scotland going to be a member of the EU?

[Rods2]

The government is making a good percentage of the cash conditional on securing a trade deal. We are committed to pay until March 2019 when we leave and also through until 2020 where we agreed the budget until them and will part of a transitional deal. The transitional deal makes sense as long as it doesn't stop us negotiating free trade deals with the rest of the world that are either signed the day after the transitional deal ends or it is already signed and starts then. To me leaving the EU in March 2019 makes sense along with a transitional deal which finalizes many powers and administration which are going to return to us from the EU. This way we should minimise disruption to industry and avoid a short sharp nasty recession. What we need to see is a breakdown of the figures.

As I keep saying where the EU is a protectionist block, stopping cheap goods from the rest of the world, especially those with high import duties and quotas is the EU's problem. We can use pre-registration of goods, ANPR at the border for tracking and random inspections at a customs centre well away from the border for goods imported into NI. People from Europe using the border to enter the UK is a problem, but so is people smuggling through the Channel ports. Soft border or hard border is going to do little to stop farmer Patrick's thriving import-export business where his barn straddles the border. This smuggling helps the peace process as troubles are bad for business. Anyway, the EU is well used to their very porous Eastern European borders with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova, which are used to smuggle money, firearms, cheap counterfeit cigarettes and alcohol, drugs (especially heroin from Afghanistan) and young girils, as slaves, for the West's sex trade.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I would like to see an open border but, come on, can we really say we can stop anyone who wants to get here from Europe from just walking in?

Its inevitable in small numbers. If it became anything more than that the ROI authuorities would have to stop them before they got near the border, like the French should prevent them getting to Calais.
Personally I'm in favour of a hard border, but I imgine I'm in a small minority - as usual. 

[LC0112G]

I would like to see an open border but, come on, can we really say we can stop anyone who wants to get here from Europe from just walking in?

ROI are not in the Schengen Zone. People from mainland Europe (whether EU citizens or from elsewhere) cannot get to Ireland without showing their identity card/passport when boarding the plane/ferry. The number of illegal immigrants into ROI will be vanishingly small, and really of no concern to HMG post BREXIT.

So that leaves people from EU countries traveling to ROI with the intention of then crossing into NI so they can then get a flight/ferry to mainland UK. Why on earth would they do that when there is almost certain to be visa free entry for EU tourists direct into the UK post Brexit anyway? If there isn't visa free entry into the UK for EU tourists, then there won't be visa free entry for UK tourists into Europe. Bognor and Brighton will get quite busy with displaced Brits who can't go to Benidorm for their summer hols.

If ROI were to join Schengen then there might be problems. So any free transit of people across the border has to be matched with a counter agreement that ROI won't join Schengen. Other than that it's all about trade.