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[Varche]

We have done that many miles since January1st that we had a routine service , gearbox oil change and new discs fitted by a VW dealer.

Today we were belting down the motorway towards Le Mans doing 130 km an hour when the car developed an enormous vibration which I thought was coming from the front left of our Golf.

Got off the motorway and limped (20kmh) to a nearby VW dealer. Problem was Front wheel only held on by one bolt, rest were loose including the locking wheel nut. Wheel fubar.

JIT gets us one for tomorrow for 776 euros all in. What a bargain that is....😖. At least we’re still alive 🙂

No internet access at dealer. Mobile phone coverage rubbish. Amazingly got a Bergerie organised (despite le mans) tomorrow nights hotel changed from tonights.

Taxi cost 62 euros for 20 km of single track roads to lovely accommodation, and the same back to civilisation tomorrow......Will he come back in the morning for us?  Can we afford it if he does....?

Sitting writing this having a good laugh trying to cook microwave meals without a microwave. How do you know ? The place is very nice barn conversion. First course is porc in caramel and rice which I have enhanced by burning it in the pan. Second course is emince de poulet with sarladaises potatoes. Roughly translated as burnt mince with sardonic potatoes.

Back to the stealer tomorrow. Who is going to pay for all of this?

[STEMO]

It could have been worse.....much worse, but I feel your pain.

[STEMO]

Where was the first VW dealer?

[Varche]

Back in UK.

[STEMO]

Back in UK.

Name and shame, needs a good bollocking.

[Lizzie Zoom]

You have had a lucky escape there Varche

As soon as you can put everything in writing to that VW dealer and claim all costs, plus an amount of compensation  that reflects the how it has affected you putting all your lives at extreme risk. I would also recommend sending copies of all confirmatory documents from the emergency garage and any pictures you have.

Once allowing a reasonable time for them to reply, as you must state in your letter, if they do not provide an apology and acceptance to pay you the value of the claim, send them a letter of Intent to take legal action.

Now I recognise Spanish Consumer Law may have it differences compared to the UK version of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, so perhaps a consultation with the internet about your laws in this respect, or with the Spanish equivilant of the Citizens Advice Burea, then after that with a solicitor who obviously will charge, but they can add that to your claim for damages

[Lizzie Zoom]

Just seen your post confirming it was a UK VW dealer involved, so that makes your claim much simpler if you decide on that legal route

[dave the builder]

Glad your ok
very odd, garges in the uk tend to tighten wheel nuts up to 1,000,000 Nm as a general rule of thumb 
hopefully you will be reimbursed the cost of the wheel,
I doubt they will pay for the burnt microwave tv meals though 

Back in UK.

Name and shame, needs a good bollocking.

you can't name and shame until the mater is resolved
public forum on the interweb 

[STEMO]

Glad your ok
very odd, garges in the uk tend to tighten wheel nuts up to 1,000,000 Nm as a general rule of thumb 
hopefully you will be reimbursed the cost of the wheel,
I doubt they will pay for the burnt microwave tv meals though 

Back in UK.

Name and shame, needs a good bollocking.

you can't name and shame until the mater is resolved
public forum on the interweb 

What's wrong with mother? Why does she need resolving? 

[STEMO]

And of course you can name and shame, dealers up and down the country get hammered on here.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Back in UK.

Name and shame, needs a good bollocking.putting out of business.

Fixed. 

[Varche]

Not going to name dealer.

We are going to keep the rim as evidence. Going to get the French dealer to check other wheels are torqued up. We have photos taken on our phone by dealer of the knackered bolts and rim.

We will of course take it up with the UK dealer. It is only reasonable and fair for them to respond.

[dave the builder]

Glad your ok
very odd, garges in the uk tend to tighten wheel nuts up to 1,000,000 Nm as a general rule of thumb 
hopefully you will be reimbursed the cost of the wheel,
I doubt they will pay for the burnt microwave tv meals though 

Back in UK.

Name and shame, needs a good bollocking.

you can't name and shame until the mater is resolved
public forum on the interweb 

What's wrong with mother? Why does she need resolving? 

she never typed enough Ts
I name and shame my finger , in it's defense , due to persistent rain, I've not done the "pointing" I intended to do on a wall, so it's out of practice   

[dave the builder]

If you paid by credit card , you can look at charge back (section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act) 

[Varche]

Mm good point but we paid by visa debit.

How far can you reasonably travel before bolts come loose if they weren't tightened to correct torque? Is it to do with high speed?

[dave the builder]

Mr google said "Automobile clubs recommend checking the seating of the nuts after 50 to 100 kilometres and retightening them whenever necessary. The reason for this is that the wheel bolts can loosen over time, meaning the wheel is no longer seated as tightly as it should be."
did VW inform you of this ? is it in the small print on the receipt 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Jeez sounds like you were lucky not to perform a multiple pirouette down the autoroute!   

Hope you enjoyed your 'microwave' meals! 

[Entwood]

Check your paperwork before you start any legal proceedings .... 

I have just had all four tyres changed and it clearly says on the invoice, and it has been highlighted in luminous yellow marker .. "Check wheelnut torque after 50 miles" ...

If your paperwork has anything along those lines your claim will be dismissed instantly......  however ..... if there is nothing to tell you to check them, it reinforces your claim  ... 

[Nick W]

Check your paperwork before you start any legal proceedings .... 

I have just had all four tyres changed and it clearly says on the invoice, and it has been highlighted in luminous yellow marker .. "Check wheelnut torque after 50 miles" ...

If your paperwork has anything along those lines your claim will be dismissed instantly......  however ..... if there is nothing to tell you to check them, it reinforces your claim  ... 

Every business that removes wheels for any reason whatsoever will state on the invoice that you need to check the wheelnuts after x miles. Not that any customer ever does. And even if you did, how would you prove it?


However, this is one of the reasons to use a dealer, as you get to complain to both the franchise AND the manufacturer. Replacing the wheel with a grovelling apology is cheaper and better for their reputations than arguing. But that's only true when a crash isn't caused by the problem

[Entwood]

Check your paperwork before you start any legal proceedings .... 

I have just had all four tyres changed and it clearly says on the invoice, and it has been highlighted in luminous yellow marker .. "Check wheelnut torque after 50 miles" ...

If your paperwork has anything along those lines your claim will be dismissed instantly......  however ..... if there is nothing to tell you to check them, it reinforces your claim  ... 

Every business that removes wheels for any reason whatsoever will state on the invoice that you need to check the wheelnuts after x miles. Not that any customer ever does. And even if you did, how would you prove it?


However, this is one of the reasons to use a dealer, as you get to complain to both the franchise AND the manufacturer. Replacing the wheel with a grovelling apology is cheaper and better for their reputations than arguing. But that's only true when a crash isn't caused by the problem

Actually, I do, every time.... I also check the wheel nuts on the tin tent before each outing. A decent torque wrench lives in the boot and is well used.. a few seconds to check each wheel may save my life, is the way I look at it.

[Bigron]

I've never been told by any tyre company to check my wheel nuts after X miles - not even kwikshit, who will deny responsibility for anything. However, there is a tyre-cum-breakers near Wareham (Trents) who display large signs with big red letters advising tyre customers to bring the vehicle back after 50 miles to have the wheelnuts checked. This puts the onus on them and not the customer for the safety of the vehicle - which is exactly where it should lie.

Ron.

[LC0112G]

Check your paperwork before you start any legal proceedings .... 

I have just had all four tyres changed and it clearly says on the invoice, and it has been highlighted in luminous yellow marker .. "Check wheelnut torque after 50 miles" ...

If your paperwork has anything along those lines your claim will be dismissed instantly......  however ..... if there is nothing to tell you to check them, it reinforces your claim  ... 

Every business that removes wheels for any reason whatsoever will state on the invoice that you need to check the wheelnuts after x miles. Not that any customer ever does. And even if you did, how would you prove it?


However, this is one of the reasons to use a dealer, as you get to complain to both the franchise AND the manufacturer. Replacing the wheel with a grovelling apology is cheaper and better for their reputations than arguing. But that's only true when a crash isn't caused by the problem

Actually, I do, every time.... I also check the wheel nuts on the tin tent before each outing. A decent torque wrench lives in the boot and is well used.. a few seconds to check each wheel may save my life, is the way I look at it.

So do I. Only ever had one puncture when out and about, but what you really really don't want is to have a puncture and then find out the previous tyre fitters have windy-gunned the bolts up to a squillion Nm and you're on the hard shoulder of a motorway in the dark and pi55ing down with rain trying to get the wretched bolts undone.

Drive home from the tyre place, and then immediately crack off the bolts and re-torque to MY settings. Only takes a few minutes but should I ever have another puncture I then know I can deal with it. Then check the pressures and adjust to what I want. Takes a bit longer if I have to fire up the compressor.

[Varche]

Guilty. For years , the only petson to tighten wheels on our Omegas was me, ditto the Vitara. I even carry the torque wrench around with me.

My bad as do not carry it in the Golf, which doesnt even have a spare wheel or wrench or jack.

Have just asked the dealer for the old rim and wheel bolts. The crucial thing in my mind ( lay awake thinking about it) is was the locking wheel bolt the one that was tight? Will wait andsee how bland the paperwork “report” is. As said earlier, one dealer isnt going to shop another.

Re going back after fifty miles, I will scrutinise our paperwork but how many people have ever heard of a wheel coming loose on a modern car?  I might even translate and ask this dealer if I need to come back after 80km .

Hey ho.

PS microwave dinners can be cooked in a saucepan without causing the diners to be ill next day. My tip is to add a dash of wine to stop them drying out at simmering stage!

[Sir Tigger KC]

So do I. Only ever had one puncture when out and about, but what you really really don't want is to have a puncture and then find out the previous tyre fitters have windy-gunned the bolts up to a squillion Nm and you're on the hard shoulder of a motorway in the dark and pi55ing down with rain trying to get the wretched bolts undone.

Drive home from the tyre place, and then immediately crack off the bolts and re-torque to MY settings. Only takes a few minutes but should I ever have another puncture I then know I can deal with it. Then check the pressures and adjust to what I want. Takes a bit longer if I have to fire up the compressor.

I've just had this issue on the V70.    Bought new tyres last week and went to remove the front wheels at the weekend, got the nearside off with some effort, but was bending my 600mm bar on the other side.  The rear was much the same, so as I've snapped wheel bolts in the past I abandoned the attempt and took it back to the tyre shop yesterday.  He struggled to get them off and when he did looked at me like I was a pussy!   

I think that the threads on the wheel bolts are probably knackered from repeated over tightening, as when I did up the ones I did get off to 110nm they didn't feel tight so nipped them up a bit more.    The tyre shop guy said they do them up to 140nm, but I suspect while you're sat drinking the free coffee and chatting to the attractive young blonde behind the desk, it's windy gun FT! 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Guilty. For years , the only petson to tighten wheels on our Omegas was me, ditto the Vitara. I even carry the torque wrench around with me.

My bad as do not carry it in the Golf, which doesnt even have a spare wheel or wrench or jack.

Have just asked the dealer for the old rim and wheel bolts. The crucial thing in my mind ( lay awake thinking about it) is was the locking wheel bolt the one that was tight? Will wait andsee how bland the paperwork “report” is. As said earlier, one dealer isnt going to shop another.

Re going back after fifty miles, I will scrutinise our paperwork but how many people have ever heard of a wheel coming loose on a modern car?  I might even translate and ask this dealer if I need to come back after 80km .

Hey ho.

PS microwave dinners can be cooked in a saucepan without causing the diners to be ill next day. My tip is to add a dash of wine to stop them drying out at simmering stage!

After all I said about going down the legal route if the VW dealer does not respond satisfactorily within a reasonable time, PROVING that they were negligent and somebody else,like you, has not tampered with the wheel nuts could be a real legal challenge.   Now that would be  a graet challenge for me, but as I have considerable experience in these matters from both sides of the fence, I know the paperwork involved could be extensive and seemingly endless, and not everyones cup of tea, until 'The Win!'

[TheBoy]

I always take the piss out of that Gixer fella as once when working on my car, we both thought the other had torqued the bolts up, and I drove home like I'd stolen it. Only once in Brackley did it start making a funny noise


Varche - every tyre receipt I've had has always had a disclaimer about retorquing in a few miles, as its their get-out-of-jail-free card for just wanking it up on a windy gun

[Lizzie Zoom]

I always take the piss out of that Gixer fella as once when working on my car, we both thought the other had torqued the bolts up, and I drove home like I'd stolen it. Only once in Brackley did it start making a funny noise


Varche - every tyre receipt I've had has always had a disclaimer about retorquing in a few miles, as its their get-out-of-jail-free card for just wanking it up on a windy gun

Yep, and that would be the great legal challenge to overcome if Varche decided to make a claim.

[ronnyd]

I've never been told by any tyre company to check my wheel nuts after X miles - not even kwikshit, who will deny responsibility for anything. However, there is a tyre-cum-breakers near Wareham (Trents) who display large signs with big red letters advising tyre customers to bring the vehicle back after 50 miles to have the wheelnuts checked. This puts the onus on them and not the customer for the safety of the vehicle - which is exactly where it should lie.

Ron.

My local tyre fitter of choice has always had the advisory on the invoice to check the tightness of the nuts/bolts after a few miles and most of the guys also verbally remind the customers as well.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I've never been told by any tyre company to check my wheel nuts after X miles - not even kwikshit, who will deny responsibility for anything. However, there is a tyre-cum-breakers near Wareham (Trents) who display large signs with big red letters advising tyre customers to bring the vehicle back after 50 miles to have the wheelnuts checked. This puts the onus on them and not the customer for the safety of the vehicle - which is exactly where it should lie.

Ron.

My local tyre fitter of choice has always had the advisory on the invoice to check the tightness of the nuts/bolts after a few miles and most of the guys also verbally remind the customers as well.

But I would challenge the legality of that as it is not reasonable, or practical, to expect a member of the public to do that, or remember to get a garage to check them, when, if the tyre fitter was doing his job properly and tightening the bolts correctly for long term use, then it should never be necessary, as, I would submit in legal argument, wheels do not regularly fall off when most motorists never carryout that re-tightening procedure.  It is an unreasonable obligation being placed on the consumer as a "Get out Clause" to inhibit potential legal action against the tyre fitter if anything goes wrong.  Motorists drive regularly 1,000's of miles between tyre changes, often on business, let alone domestic use,  without re-checking those nuts, without any incident transpiring.  That can be evidenced with the testimonies of millions of drivers, but can it be proved that the non-re-tightening of wheel nuts if done after 50 miles, or higher mileages, causes such a massive loss of a wheel, if the tyre fitter did his job correctly in the first instance?  Can that actually be evidenced?

Just my thoughts, which may seem mad to some, but such practices by retailers and suppliers should be legally judged for their reasonableness, and questioned for their practical application, and not just an attempt to avoid legal action when they get it wrong.  In other words nothing should not be questioned in law.

[ronnyd]

I've never been told by any tyre company to check my wheel nuts after X miles - not even kwikshit, who will deny responsibility for anything. However, there is a tyre-cum-breakers near Wareham (Trents) who display large signs with big red letters advising tyre customers to bring the vehicle back after 50 miles to have the wheelnuts checked. This puts the onus on them and not the customer for the safety of the vehicle - which is exactly where it should lie.

Ron.

My local tyre fitter of choice has always had the advisory on the invoice to check the tightness of the nuts/bolts after a few miles and most of the guys also verbally remind the customers as well.

But I would challenge the legality of that as it is not reasonable, or practical, to expect a member of the public to do that, or remember to get a garage to check them, when, if the tyre fitter was doing his job properly and tightening the bolts correctly for long term use, then it should never be necessary, as, I would submit in legal argument, wheels do not regularly fall off when most motorists never carryout that re-tightening procedure.  It is an unreasonable obligation being placed on the consumer as a "Get out Clause" to inhibit potential legal action against the tyre fitter if anything goes wrong.  Motorists drive regularly 1,000's of miles between tyre changes, often on business, let alone domestic use,  without re-checking those nuts, without any incident transpiring.  That can be evidenced with the testimonies of millions of drivers, but can it be proved that the non-re-tightening of wheel nuts if done after 50 miles, or higher mileages, causes such a massive loss of a wheel, if the tyre fitter did his job correctly in the first instance?  Can that actually be evidenced?

Just my thoughts, which may seem mad to some, but such practices by retailers and suppliers should be legally judged for their reasonableness, and questioned for their practical application, and not just an attempt to avoid legal action when they get it wrong.  In other words nothing should not be questioned in law.

It,s surprising how many times that advisory or comments from MOT testers came up that wheel nuts were missing or loose. This was when i was looking for a car to replace the Desmond and was checking the history.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I've never been told by any tyre company to check my wheel nuts after X miles - not even kwikshit, who will deny responsibility for anything. However, there is a tyre-cum-breakers near Wareham (Trents) who display large signs with big red letters advising tyre customers to bring the vehicle back after 50 miles to have the wheelnuts checked. This puts the onus on them and not the customer for the safety of the vehicle - which is exactly where it should lie.

Ron.

My local tyre fitter of choice has always had the advisory on the invoice to check the tightness of the nuts/bolts after a few miles and most of the guys also verbally remind the customers as well.

But I would challenge the legality of that as it is not reasonable, or practical, to expect a member of the public to do that, or remember to get a garage to check them, when, if the tyre fitter was doing his job properly and tightening the bolts correctly for long term use, then it should never be necessary, as, I would submit in legal argument, wheels do not regularly fall off when most motorists never carryout that re-tightening procedure.  It is an unreasonable obligation being placed on the consumer as a "Get out Clause" to inhibit potential legal action against the tyre fitter if anything goes wrong.  Motorists drive regularly 1,000's of miles between tyre changes, often on business, let alone domestic use,  without re-checking those nuts, without any incident transpiring.  That can be evidenced with the testimonies of millions of drivers, but can it be proved that the non-re-tightening of wheel nuts if done after 50 miles, or higher mileages, causes such a massive loss of a wheel, if the tyre fitter did his job correctly in the first instance?  Can that actually be evidenced?

Just my thoughts, which may seem mad to some, but such practices by retailers and suppliers should be legally judged for their reasonableness, and questioned for their practical application, and not just an attempt to avoid legal action when they get it wrong.  In other words nothing should not be questioned in law.

It,s surprising how many times that advisory or comments from MOT testers came up that wheel nuts were missing or loose. This was when i was looking for a car to replace the Desmond and was checking the history.

But with MOT's that would be in the main for private vehicles and ones that do not cover high mileage, and , I suggest, the MOT failures/advisories are often, not always perhaps, for poorly maintained cars, not for ones who in particular have visited a tyre outlet very recently.

I would add that I, and colleagues, in my past extensive national business drove 100's of thousands of miles over months and we often needed new tyres. When they were fitted none of us checked our wheel nuts but I can safely say we all never lost a wheel, and, driving at the speeds we often did, if what the disclaimer states was true to actual practice we should have lost them all the time!

Can you see my logic?  I am very cynical of that disclaimer which I would legally challenge is only there to protect the dealer from legal claims of malpractice when their fitter gets it wrong.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Can you see my logic?  I am very cynical of that disclaimer which I would legally challenge is only there to protect the dealer from legal claims of malpractice when their fitter gets it wrong.

Yes certainly worth getting advice about that, as odds are that it's not worth the paper it's written on if the dealer has be negligent. 

[Varche]

Getting pretty tired now one way and another.

Arrived at stealer this morning . Job complete and I notice one bolt cover missing. Very obvious. However in the ensuing making sure we had asked all the right questions including

Was the locking wheel bolt loose when we arrived. Yes ( i thought it was too as the remover was still in the car)

Do I need to come back and check the torque after 50 mles. No

Were all the other three wheel tight Yes

What the report said. ( predictably not a lot other than wheel was loose on arrival)

So we left without the sodding bolt cover. Unimpressed that they forgot it.

Fifty miles down the road we stopped for a coffee to decide whether to continue or turn around and head back to UK dealer. Decided to continue. Going to ask French dealer to post the cover on.

First bit of decent motorway we get up to 130 kmh and there is a bad vibration. Lessens at 120 or 140.  So is that front wheels out of balance or transmission tatered? The swapped over tyre on new rim was balanced supposedly.

Confidence in the car is fairly low. Ideally I would like to go to yet another VW dealer and get their opinion. Even more expense. I havegot to the point where I am hearing noises and expecting the wheel to come loose again.

If I could just get another identical car , I would. However it was really hard getting this one and we have invested money in it.

Bill for wheel and changing tyre was 830 euros. Now over 1000 euros out of pocket.

Going to ring the UK dealer on Friday.

Managed to get to Angouleme today in what little travelling time was available we have set target of a place near San Sebastion for tomorrow.

[Doctor Gollum]

Check the wheel nuts again. If you find they are loose, call VW immediately.

[Doctor Gollum]

I won't copy LZs essay but I disagree with pretty much all of it.

Firstly, having been in a car that was written off when a rear wheel came off at speed, I would suggest that you heed the advice to get the bolts retorqued at the suggested interval.

If it were a bs money making scheme it wouldn't be enough to make an HGV VOR until it's been done. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Use the wheel brace in the boot to check the wheel nuts periodically and get yourself home! 

Then deal with it in the sunshine! 

[Varche]

Might not be one but will have a look.  Good suggestion.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Might not be one but will have a look.  Good suggestion.

Ah yes you've probably just got a can of goo.....       

If that's the case I'm sure you'll find something suitable in somewhere like Castorama cheaply enough. 

[Doctor Gollum]

Might not be one but will have a look.  Good suggestion.

Ah yes you've probably just got a can of goo.....       

If that's the case I'm sure you'll find something suitable in somewhere like Castorama cheaply enough. 

Giving the bolts a tap with the screw in towing eye will identify the loose ones as they will sound different. 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Might not be one but will have a look.  Good suggestion.

Ah yes you've probably just got a can of goo.....       

If that's the case I'm sure you'll find something suitable in somewhere like Castorama cheaply enough. 

Giving the bolts a tap with the screw in towing eye will identify the loose ones as they will sound different. 

That's a good tip and reminds me of the wheel tappers of old railway days.  Do they still exist for modern rail wheels or is it done using high tech ways?

Who remembers the Wheel Tappers and Shunters Club in black & white tv days?

[Nick W]

I won't copy LZs essay but I disagree with pretty much all of it.

Firstly, having been in a car that was written off when a rear wheel came off at speed, I would suggest that you heed the advice to get the bolts retorqued at the suggested interval.

If it were a bs money making scheme it wouldn't be enough to make an HGV VOR until it's been done. 

I'm with you on every point.


Loose wheels IS a common problem. Sometimes tightening the nuts is enough. Sometimes the wheel and/or hub and nuts are damaged and need to be replaced. Sometimes the wheel comes off, with everything that involves. Every instance of this I've seen or dealt with had recently had the wheel refitted. It got so bad with our turn-of the-century LT vans shedding NSR wheels that we had new wheel bolts fitted to the entire fleet and wouldn't accept vans back that the dealer hadn't roadtested and retightened the bolts. Yes, we paid extra for this. I knew tyre fitters who had experienced this on their own Sprinters(same van with MB engines). The trade joke at the time was to bet on what would fall off first: the NSR wheel or the side door.


The smal 1/2" windy guns and wimpy air lines get a bad press; they're less effective than a strong heave on a long breaker bar, but they are faster to use. The tyre company I use only use guns to undo wheel nuts, they nip them up by hand and tighten fully with a torque wrench, which is the correct procedure.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I won't copy LZs essay but I disagree with pretty much all of it.

Firstly, having been in a car that was written off when a rear wheel came off at speed, I would suggest that you heed the advice to get the bolts retorqued at the suggested interval.

If it were a bs money making scheme it wouldn't be enough to make an HGV VOR until it's been done. 

I'm with you on every point.


Loose wheels IS a common problem. Sometimes tightening the nuts is enough. Sometimes the wheel and/or hub and nuts are damaged and need to be replaced. Sometimes the wheel comes off, with everything that involves. Every instance of this I've seen or dealt with had recently had the wheel refitted. It got so bad with our turn-of the-century LT vans shedding NSR wheels that we had new wheel bolts fitted to the entire fleet and wouldn't accept vans back that the dealer hadn't roadtested and retightened the bolts. Yes, we paid extra for this. I knew tyre fitters who had experienced this on their own Sprinters(same van with MB engines). The trade joke at the time was to bet on what would fall off first: the NSR wheel or the side door.


The smal 1/2" windy guns and wimpy air lines get a bad press; they're less effective than a strong heave on a long breaker bar, but they are faster to use. The tyre company I use only use guns to undo wheel nuts, they nip them up by hand and tighten fully with a torque wrench, which is the correct procedure.

But what you is describing is not a problem in checking the wheel nuts after 50 miles of driving after a tyre change, but an inherent problem with a certain type of wheel/bolts on certain vehicles. You are also describing a failure in the quality of wheel fitting or the use of air guns.

I was specifically suggesting that the Tyre fitter Varche dealt with may have been negligent and that the "after 50'mile disclaimer" is only there to inhibit any claims of malpractice.

Of course wheels have come off vehicles, but as you are implying it is not due to the customer not checking the bolts after a tyre change but faults in a) Parts and materials b) Improper or negliant use of tools used in tightening the bolts.

I suggest we are describing between us two separate areas of legal liability

What Varche decides to do though depends on his willingness to start legal action IF the VW dealer does not accept responsibity for what transpired and explains why. By the sounds of it Varche just wants it all to go away and is fed up of the initial incident and what has followed on.  I don't blame him!

Sometimes, don't we know, one thing happening with your car leads on to something else.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Might not be one but will have a look.  Good suggestion.

Ah yes you've probably just got a can of goo.....       

If that's the case I'm sure you'll find something suitable in somewhere like Castorama cheaply enough. 

Giving the bolts a tap with the screw in towing eye will identify the loose ones as they will sound different. 

He'll still need something to tighten up a loose nut or bolt though. 

[Rods2]

Great to see that it is nothing worse than replacement parts as it could have been so much worse.

I generally after assembling anything that involves precise alignment, vibration or heat cycling re-torque the bolts after a week of use as it is not unusual for them to need retightening. Likewise, I check tyre pressures regularly & also increase pressures if I know I will be carrying heavy loads. I know somebody that survived an underinflated disintegrating front tyre at 70mph on a motorway & they described it as being a passenger of fate as they had no control over the outcome, but they fortunately got away with it.

I was discussing safely earlier on Twitter, where as a 16yo, the first week of my electronics apprenticeship at RAE Farnborough was all safety lectures & films about keeping yourself safe & also those around you. Having this dinned it at a young age has made me always instinctively & often unconsciously think about safety as part of planning anything. Using a bench grinder, when sharpening tools, drills etc was an immediate sacking offence if you were caught not wearing safety glasses, where you had your own pair & there was always a pair also hanging from the grinder. The habit still survives as my garage bench grinder always has a pair hung on them, which being next to my pillar drill I always use them with that as well.

A good tip is that if you are working with anything sharp keep you hands behind the sharp end. I can't use kitchen knives without a chopping board, so my hands & fingers are always behind the blade,  unlike my first wife who I would forewarn that I had sharpened the blunt kitchen knives but I could also guarantee she would later be making a dash for our first-aid cupboard for the plasters.

[Sir Tigger KC]

I'm sure that when Varche is struggling in the pissing rain to tighten his nuts with a pair of tweezers on the side of a Spanish motorway somewhere near San Sebastian tomorrow, he'll remember your wife's cut finger and will wonder what the message was!   

[Doctor Gollum]

Again LZ you have completely side stepped the point.

Regardless of who or how or to what vehicle is involved it is the driver's responsibility to check that a) the wheel nuts/bolts are correctly tightened and b) subsequently re checked after a certain period of time/distance has elapsed.

I also have personal experience of having a wheel changed mid way through a day's deliveries only to have to call the fitter back out an hour later to retorque the nuts.

Whilst it is obvious that a detached truck wheel will kill in an instant, don't overlook the fact that a car one will do so just as efficiently.

I am actually surprised that there is no mention of rechecking the wheel nuts in the Omega owners manual. It is included in my Mercedes one.

The reason for rechecking them is simply that the hub temperature has a bearing on the tightness as does vibration and the direction of wheel rotation. This is why hub spinners generally have a reverse thread... Traditional threads will naturally undo if not fully tightened when the hubs are rotated anticlockwise.

As an aside, I have had to refit the side door of several Sprinters (and Transhits) over the years but never the NSR wheel This was undoubtedly due to TNT having an extremely robust wheel nut policy. This has also been the case at every single haulage firm that I have driven for... In fact every firm where I have worked involving vehicles.

Bottom line is that it is ultimately the driver who is responsible.

[Rods2]

I'm sure that when Varche is struggling in the pissing rain to tighten his nuts with a pair of tweezers on the side of a Spanish motorway somewhere near San Sebastian tomorrow, he'll remember your wife's cut finger and will wonder what the message was!   

Good that Varche's wife in the future can have a cut finger & talk about it. I can create a very, very long list of those that have died far too young, especially in my teens as a biker, to not appreciate and be very happy that Brian & his wife have thankfully got away with it.

Now is not a good time to lecture me on accidents or death as a 80yo BA retired ground crew neighbour died last week over tripping over a Hoover lead. As a widower he used to go for his daily two pints, at our local social club but didn't turn up for several days. The bar steward went round to his house, reluctantly went into the house through his unlocked backdoor out of concern and found him with a congealed bloodied head where he had hit it followed by multiple strokes, where he was too paralysed on one side to get up and as he tried had wrapped himself more and more around the lead. Where he had laid for a few days on his side he had a black no-circulation  arm which was not pretty. Frimley Park hospital said he would not last the weekend & he didn't. There is no good way to go but this was pretty horrendous & as is along with too many RTA bits of friends in cars or stroon down the road from bikes, not to mention the severely brain damaged, wheel chair bound crippled survivors that I've also known.

[Varche]

Day 42

Cannot sleep for talk of death and tightening nuts with tweezers. 

[Bigron]

Some time ago when I was foolish enough to go to Kqikshit for a tyre (good price at the time), I had to insist that they did NOT use a winmdy gun to tighten the wheelnuts, but use a torque spanner. Having found one, they were at a loss to know which setting to use; I had to tell them that needed to be 110nm!

Ron.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Again LZ you have completely side stepped the point.

Regardless of who or how or to what vehicle is involved it is the driver's responsibility to check that a) the wheel nuts/bolts are correctly tightened and b) subsequently re checked after a certain period of time/distance has elapsed.

I also have personal experience of having a wheel changed mid way through a day's deliveries only to have to call the fitter back out an hour later to retorque the nuts.

Whilst it is obvious that a detached truck wheel will kill in an instant, don't overlook the fact that a car one will do so just as efficiently.

I am actually surprised that there is no mention of rechecking the wheel nuts in the Omega owners manual. It is included in my Mercedes one.

The reason for rechecking them is simply that the hub temperature has a bearing on the tightness as does vibration and the direction of wheel rotation. This is why hub spinners generally have a reverse thread... Traditional threads will naturally undo if not fully tightened when the hubs are rotated anticlockwise.

As an aside, I have had to refit the side door of several Sprinters (and Transhits) over the years but never the NSR wheel This was undoubtedly due to TNT having an extremely robust wheel nut policy. This has also been the case at every single haulage firm that I have driven for... In fact every firm where I have worked involving vehicles.

Bottom line is that it is ultimately the driver who is responsible.

No, I am just looking at it, and what happened to Varche in his particular case from a differellnt legal angle DG

I do understand completely what you are saying and agree completely that a mechanic /technician, or whatever the person is who works on your motor vehicle is called, in a professional capacity or an unpaid one, can and do get things seriously wrong and can make errors - be negligent - that cause very real problems for the driver. But to rigidly claim it is always the drivers responsibity to check what that mechanic has done is simply wrong.

Example for my legal argument;  a heavy, 25 tonne 4 axle truck fully loaded with building aggregate ran out of control down a steep hill in Bath after the brakes failed and, tragically killed a grandmother,,and worse still, a 4 year old girl, along with two others in a car, overturning and demolishing walls to end up on it's side:'(

A subsequent investigation by various official departments concluded that the brakes were badly maintained and failed due to criminal negligence by the chief mechanic and the owner of the haulage firm who, it was fully proved, was totally aware of a practice to cut corners on the maintenance of the HGV's.

A court case followed and, recently, the chief mechanic and the haulage company's owner were convicted of manslaughter and imprisioned.  The driver of the truck was CLEARED of all responsibility by the court.

So, no, the driver is NOT always responsible for checking what a mechanic has done with his vehicle, as Varche was not responsible legally for the damage caused to his vehicle, and the threat to his and his passenger's lives by the negligence of the tyre fitter.

I rest my case M'Lord.

I rest

[tidla]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

[Entwood]

Having had all 4 tyres changed, today I reached 50 miles, so "torque checked" all 4 wheels at 120Nm as the book says ... interestingly, 3 out of 4 wheels showed exectly zero movement as expected, on the 4th wheel 3 of the 5 bolts moved about 10 degrees before the torque wrench set ... so they will be rechecked in another 50 miles...   The tin tent was also checked... no movement ... 

[Doctor Gollum]

Having had all 4 tyres changed, today I reached 50 miles, so "torque checked" all 4 wheels at 120Nm as the book says ... interestingly, 3 out of 4 wheels showed exectly zero movement as expected, on the 4th wheel 3 of the 5 bolts moved about 10 degrees before the torque wrench set ... so they will be rechecked in another 50 miles...   The tin tent was also checked... no movement ... 

QED

[BazaJT]

Holding my hands up here I have never re-checked the tightness of wheel nuts/bolts on any car I've ever owned.Not once have I had a wheel wobble or fall off

[Lizzie Zoom]

Holding my hands up here I have never re-checked the tightness of wheel nuts/bolts on any car I've ever owned.Not once have I had a wheel wobble or fall off

That is it Baza. There are two lines of thought on this thread. One is yours that is the same as mine, our experiences do not suggest this is a general problem, but one maybe due completely to the negligence of the tyre fitter and/or the materials used. As I stated before, but I do not know if you can say the same, I and my business colleagues did 100's of thousands of miles in relatively short periods of time, and like me clocked up 1,000,000 miles, often at high speeds. They and I NEVER experienced a wheel coming off, or anything like it. I was never aware of anyone else having that problem either. Like you I have NEVER checked my wheel bolts.

Now the second line of thought, which I would be a fool to ignore, claims that this is a common problem if you do not check your wheel bolts after a tyre change, or as a matter of routine. However, there seems to be a suggestion that those examples are of situations where the materials - the bolts- used are sub-standard, the air guns used have not, for whatever reason worked correctly, or simply down to negligent actions by the mechanic or fitter involved.

I have of course been coming at this from the legal angle for the benefit of Varche's case and making the point that if the driver is not the one to fit the wheel and a third party is, especially a professional and supposedly competent person to undertake such work, then the legal responisibilty for any misfortunes that arise is with them.  It is not REASONABLE for a driver, such as an 80 year old or indeed of any age, to be expected to have the ability or indeed knowledge to undertake checks after someone who is meant to be qualified to undertake such work, and receives reward for doing so, has done so. Any disclaimer by the garage is therefore subject to legal challenge.
 

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

[dave the builder]

This thread reminds me of the POS picasso clutch issue about a year ago (discussed on OOF)
I remember there being warnings on the clutch cowboys invoice about returning @ 500 miles to have the clutch checked and again @ 1500 IIRC
Fortunately ,for the case , the gearbox parted company with the engine  within the 500 miles and was returned, it went back twice  for them to fix ,this was due to missing bolts,clearly not tightened or not fitted .due to the lack of earth path via the gearbox to the starter motor, it also fried all the ECU loom etc effectively writing off the car.I had to take photos and get an engineer's report
 after months,lots of emails,phone calls etc and legal threats , the matter got resolved,
because the £760 bill for the work had been paid by credit card, the credit card company refunded the bill, plus £1000 to find a replacement vehicle, plus £500 for expenses for hire car,etc etc plus we kept the picasso and scrapped it (another £160 for the kitty) ,they then pursued the case themselves .probably got more as a final settlement  who knows, I was just happy to get rid of the POS picasso and draw a line under it all .
I'm not a fan of buying anything on credit ,however, paying for a bill for services with a credit card, then paying in full the credit card balance at the end of the month ,paid off well in this case.
I had good evidence, photographs ,engineers report, the damaged car etc ,and could have pursued the case via small claims and I expected to win, BUT was happy to let the credit card company factor the debt and deal with it ,because it takes a lot of time/hassle to  deal with .

In Mr Varche's case, I'd hope to be refunded the cost of replacement wheel,tyre, hub and wheel nuts and fitting , plus a token gesture (say £50  ) and leave it at that.

[Lizzie Zoom]

This thread reminds me of the POS picasso clutch issue about a year ago (discussed on OOF)
I remember there being warnings on the clutch cowboys invoice about returning @ 500 miles to have the clutch checked and again @ 1500 IIRC
Fortunately ,for the case , the gearbox parted company with the engine  within the 500 miles and was returned, it went back twice  for them to fix ,this was due to missing bolts,clearly not tightened or not fitted .due to the lack of earth path via the gearbox to the starter motor, it also fried all the ECU loom etc effectively writing off the car.I had to take photos and get an engineer's report
 after months,lots of emails,phone calls etc and legal threats , the matter got resolved,
because the £760 bill for the work had been paid by credit card, the credit card company refunded the bill, plus £1000 to find a replacement vehicle, plus £500 for expenses for hire car,etc etc plus we kept the picasso and scrapped it (another £160 for the kitty) ,they then pursued the case themselves .probably got more as a final settlement  who knows, I was just happy to get rid of the POS picasso and draw a line under it all .
I'm not a fan of buying anything on credit ,however, paying for a bill for services with a credit card, then paying in full the credit card balance at the end of the month ,paid off well in this case.
I had good evidence, photographs ,engineers report, the damaged car etc ,and could have pursued the case via small claims and I expected to win, BUT was happy to let the credit card company factor the debt and deal with it ,because it takes a lot of time/hassle to  deal with .

In Mr Varche's case, I'd hope to be refunded the cost of replacement wheel,tyre, hub and wheel nuts and fitting , plus a token gesture (say £50  ) and leave it at that.

Indeed don't Dave, that should be the satisfactory conclusion and no doubt Varche is pushing for that.

However, we all know what the motor industry is like, even and especially with main dealers. Therefore Varche may have to resort to my favourite starter for ten, The Consumer Rights Act 2015

[Doctor Gollum]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion.

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained...

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept

[Rods2]

Good luck to all of you that feel lucky that your unchecked wheel nuts are tight and for those not so cool unlucky cats trying to use their tenth life:

I was standing at the pearly gate to learn my fate,

I told St Peter I was going at a rate as I was late.

As he pointed down at the fire,

I told him it wasn't my fault I lost the wheel and tyre.

He point down again and said I don't care,

I said, it was the tyre fitters fault and that's not fair.

A frown on his face and a take him down yell,

It no longer matters, that this didn't end well.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion.

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained...

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept

Sorry, but explain how even an experienced HGV mechanic ( the one who 'maintained' that was one of those), that I do give all due respect to, be an expert in law?

In addition when has ignorance or young age stopped a full prosecution when others have been killed with a conviction and heavy penalty when that person has been a driver, especially of an HGV that carries additional responsibility ?

[Doctor Gollum]

That you ask the question suggests that you believe all mechanics to be corrupt or inept. Or both. And I am angry that you would even deign to suggest either even if Tilda doesn't take offense. 

There was nothing to suggest the the truck in Bath had had any actual maintenance or actually been inspected by a qualified mechanic... Let alone undergone a six weekly inspection in accordance with VOSA/DfT and Operator licensing requirements.

Oh, and the 20 year old driver was found not guilty by a jury, not the judge and had he had a bit more self respect he could have refused to drive the truck which he knew to be defective and would have prevented him from ever being involved.

Of course, being a legal expert you would already know all of that.

By the way, here's a link to the reporting of the verdict...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bath-tipper-truck-crash-mitzi-steady-haulage-lorry-out-of-control-hill-somerset-matthew-gordon-a7550526.html

[Entwood]

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle

Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion.

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained...

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept

Can I just say, for the sake of extreme clarity, that the 3 nuts on the "bad" wheel were not "loose" as such .. I got about 10 degrees of turn at 120 Nm on my torque wrench .. so at a guess they were probably done up to around 100/110 Nm (?) so might never have moved at all. It might be why many people who don't check the nuts never have a problem, because the nuts are tight "enough" without being to the correct torque.

After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   

[Nick W]

After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   

sums it up nicely.


Checking wheelnuts has been best practice for decades: my grandfather suggested it to me when I started working on cars in 1987, which was 15years after he retired and stopped driving.


When the difference in work between probably good enough and as good as can reasonably be expected  is so small you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.

[Lizzie Zoom]

That you ask the question suggests that you believe all mechanics to be corrupt or inept. Or both. And I am angry that you would even deign to suggest either even if Tilda doesn't take offense.  >

There was nothing to suggest the the truck in Bath had had any actual maintenance or actually been inspected by a qualified mechanic... Let alone undergone a six weekly inspection in accordance with VOSA/DfT and Operator licensing requirements.

Oh, and the 20 year old driver was found not guilty by a jury, not the judge and had he had a bit more self respect he could have refused to drive the truck which he knew to be defective and would have prevented him from ever being involved.

Of course, being a legal expert you would already know all of that.

By the way, here's a link to the reporting of the verdict...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bath-tipper-truck-crash-mitzi-steady-haulage-lorry-out-of-control-hill-somerset-matthew-gordon-a7550526.html

What!!!

Please come on DG, look at how I just stated, after originally talking through the legal approach, that with all respect to Tildaas a mechanic, he is just that and not a lawyer which would be very useful to all of us to explain the legal situation in a case of mechanical failures or wheels falling off.

Where, prey, did I imply that all mechanics are either corrupt or inept? How was insulting Tilda?

No, once again you are for some reason taking umbrage with how I want to approach the Varche situation, and that is THE point of this thread, which has all the way through in my posts been about the legal implication of a mechanic / technician / fitter being neglient, problems with materials / parts or just failing to use tools correctly -( you know, this does happen does it not, or are you claiming that never transpires?! ) and the responsibily of the driver when things go wrong out on the road.

At no stage did I suggest, imply, or actually state that ALL mechanics, or even a high proportion of them are corrupt or inept!!

But hey, let's not miss a chance to be difficult with the only lady on this forum to post!  Like one other person at least on here, you just do not like an opinion that is out of line with yours, whether from a lady or a man.

Come on DG, relax and don't take everything so personally, often reading between the lines things that simply are not there.  This is only a car forum, albeit a great one where we can (should)'be able to express our views without fear or failure

[Sir Tigger KC]

I wonder whether Varche has got home OK without his wheels falling off?      

[Lizzie Zoom]

After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   

sums it up nicely.


Checking wheelnuts has been best practice for decades: my grandfather suggested it to me when I started working on cars in 1987, which was 15years after he retired and stopped driving.


When the difference in work between probably good enough and as good as can reasonably be expected  is so small you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.

Yes you are right, and I must admit throughout my driving life I have never checked the wheel bolts, after even me replacing wheels, so is it stupidity or ignorance?  With me it is propably both!

Although I have always known the vital imortance of tightening bolts to the correct torque around the engine - that was because I was blessed with training from an uncle who,was a chief mechanic back in the day - I do not ever remember anyone saying you MUST keep checking wheel nuts.

Perhaps that was due to the fact I had company maintained cars and just let the professionals look after them (or my husband sometimes!! ) and I just drove them.  Was it also due to those early cars for me having steel wheels, not alloys, so we did not have to think of such things as tightening wheel nuts? I would personally welcome views on that one.

Now we have had this thread I would certainly be stupid not to regularly start to check the wheel nuts!

[TheBoy]

I suspect part of the issue is that dads no longer know how to open the bonnet, and thus never teach their kids.

Take tunnie's mates at work - whom I don't know at all, so making assumptions based on tunnie's age - I would wager none of them know how to do basic maintenance.  I think as millennials go, tunnie is quite unusual in being able to do this.

In fact, taken a step further, as everyone knows, I work "in IT" (whatever the hell that means), and because my generation were playing on their Spectrums and C64s, I reckon in my office only a couple of people could do a basic service.


One of the convoy going over to France was a young, bright teenage lass who had not been driving long.  As we got off the ferry in France, I noticed one tyre was way down on pressure and the 2 fronts were very borderline tread. So as I was putting air in (it was 18psi, car was fully loaded with 3 adults and luggage/booze for 10 days), I asked her what prep she had done. "Kissed the bonnet and tapped the steering wheel" was the reply.

I suspect that car, like so many others, gets a £99 "service"/MOT annually (ie, an oil change), and no other work. 

[ronnyd]

I suspect part of the issue is that dads no longer know how to open the bonnet, and thus never teach their kids.

Take tunnie's mates at work - whom I don't know at all, so making assumptions based on tunnie's age - I would wager none of them know how to do basic maintenance.  I think as millennials go, tunnie is quite unusual in being able to do this.

In fact, taken a step further, as everyone knows, I work "in IT" (whatever the hell that means), and because my generation were playing on their Spectrums and C64s, I reckon in my office only a couple of people could do a basic service.


One of the convoy going over to France was a young, bright teenage lass who had not been driving long.  As we got off the ferry in France, I noticed one tyre was way down on pressure and the 2 fronts were very borderline tread. So as I was putting air in (it was 18psi, car was fully loaded with 3 adults and luggage/booze for 10 days), I asked her what prep she had done. "Kissed the bonnet and tapped the steering wheel" was the reply.

I suspect that car, like so many others, gets a £99 "service"/MOT annually (ie, an oil change), and no other work. 

Got the same sort of reply from one of my granddaughters when i asked her about how she maintains her car. Even worse Quikshite did the MOT.