Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LC0112G]

I'm not sure that I understood much of that, LCO112G!

I'm just trying to explain why finding and prosecuting may not be as trivial as some appear to think it is.

Regarding your reference to "proper" policing, TG, I certainly would have welcomed that approach a few years back when stopped by an UNMARKED traffic car half-way down the M3 at about 3 AM on a clear, dry and virtually empty Motorway for exceeding the speed limit.
He got me on Vascar and would not listed to reason, probably visualising the cash benefit to their Christmas fund?
My point is that it was a first offence with NO safety issues, so a warning/reprimand would have sufficed: instead of which, I got a Court appearance, fined £150 and they looked after my licence for me for 6 months.

Huh? You got a 6 month ban for a first offence? I can only assume that the speed was well into 3 figures. Unlikely any copper is going to let you off with that, I've heard of many cases where the copper has said something like "we clocked you at 105, but I'm only going to report you for 98" - that is usually enough to avoid a ban and 'only' get 6 pints as a warning. Vascar means he timed you between 2 point on the road that are a known distance apart. If used properly it's plenty accurate - so he probably had you banged to rights. Neither the police nor DVLA can ban you from driving - only a court can do that. So if the offence is serious enough to possibly warrant a ban, then you end up in court.

Speaking of safety issues, isn't the Police's Prime Directive prevention before prosecution?
Clearly marked police vehicles and gerrd traps/cameras would go a long way to helping achieve this aim.

It's not something I'm minded to believe. They are there to protect the public safety by enforcing the laws of the land and gathering evidence to place before a court when these laws are broken. The education/prevention argument is used to try and persuade the public that they aren't after YOU.

[Marks DTM Calib]

I find this whole incident very disappointing, the fact that the driver did this, the van owner is known and there is bound to be paper work and other details (the goods must have been collected and dropped off somewhere plus the insurance claim!) and yet, nothing can be done shows a very sad state of affairs!

[geoffr70]

STEMO, how naive of you: they only bother to use technology chase motorists for revenue collection - anything else involves too much work (sorry Jason)!

Ron.

I'm in agreement with you on this Ron. Years ago I had the misfortune of being a police type person. I've worked as and with many different types of police in 3 continents, and the longer I did the worse I thought of it. Any interest in fairness and justice seemed to easily give way to the selfish and lazy whims of the officer, many of whom were also terribly incompetent, so even if they had the integrity to attempt to do the job properly, it didn't matter because they made a pig's ear of it anyway.

There have been many incidents, both minor and serious and everywhere in between in many different contexts over a long period of time, and still on going, where me, my family or friends have made complaints to police, who haven't lifted a finger to take any action. One even tried to lie to us to avoid doing an investigation. It becomes apparent when you call 999 that they are not interested; the control room operators seem to try to divert and distract you, that's even if they answer at all (yes that has happened - in the early hours so presumably they were asleep). A few years ago I apprehended a burglar and restrained him on the ground (I was faster than fat plod), when the person was calm and compliant and face down on hard tarmac, the chasing policeman ran and did a two footed stamp on his head - judging by the noise it made it was lucky there wasn't brains all over the road.

Anyway, of course years ago I came to my senses and left. It's at the point now where I doubt I'd even ring the police for assistance as it would be worse than doing nothing.

[Entwood]

Given that this thread has rapidly turned into a "have a go at the police" thread, it is hardly surprising jason has had enough and left.

There are a several thousand police members out there, doing their best, every single day. When they get shot protecting us there is a huge outswell of support and calls for them to be armed etc etc.

When they catch someone else breaking the law they have "done their job" well, when they attend collisions and save lives, or put their own lives at risk, they are the "good guys"

When they do the job they are paid for, enforcing the laws that WE have broken .. they are slammed and ridiculed as "cash collectors"  ...  somewhat hypocritical methinks ??

The Police collect no cash .. the courts do.

If you don't break the law... you don't get caught/ fined ... dead simple really, even an OOF member should be able to understand that simple fact.

I, for one, am sorry jason left, although I see why, as his was an interesting and knowledgeable insight in to many of the facets of policing we seldom think about. He will be missed.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

1. I agree with quite a lot of your post Nige.
2. To use the phrase "even an OOF member should be able to understand..." is incredibly condescending, snobbish in fact.
3. You speak as someone who has never exceeded 70mph on UK roads, or knowingly broken any traffic regulations. Is that the case ?
4. I too will miss Jason, for the reasons you mentioned. I'm also a little surprised that his skin is apparently pretty thin.

[btc]

There is an old saying commit the crime get caught do the time or pay the fine

[Bigron]

I didn't realise until today (these posts) that Jason had left.
Whereas I am broadly in agreement with you, Nige, my main grievance is the official hypocracy where speed/safety is concerned and it's a bit disingenuous to say that if you don't speed you will never get fined, etc.
To meet that criterion, you would need to have your nose glued to the speedo permanently - now THAT would be a safety issue!
In my M3 example, If I may refer back to it, I was on a clear road in good visibility and the only other vehicle in sight was this unmarked plod hammering along the motorway behind me and must have been doing a much higher speed before he even saw me. I moved over to let him pass and it was only when he was right behind me that he put the blues on and pulled me over.
Where is the safety issue there? With plod, I would day, as he was just storming along in the hope of catching someone.

I'm afraid LCO112G, you didn't quite take my point regarding the policy of "prevention before prosecution. If "safety" is really the driving force and not revenue generation, then show a presence and people will slow down - the desired result, surely? Sneaky stealth methods can only be for revenue collection.
What other human activity attracts so much police attention and monitoring? To be equivalent in everyday life all citizens would need to wear registration plates and followed wherever they go - don't laugh, the next socialist government could well make it happen!

Jason, if you are still reading these posts, then if anything that I have written has offended you and/or contributed in any way to your leaving, I apologise unreservedly: it was not personal - we all need to let off steam occasionally in this high-pressured world.

Please reconsider your decision to leave,,,,,

Ron.

[Entwood]

1. I agree with quite a lot of your post Nige.
2. To use the phrase "even an OOF member should be able to understand..." is incredibly condescending, snobbish in fact.
3. You speak as someone who has never exceeded 70mph on UK roads, or knowingly broken any traffic regulations. Is that the case ?
4. I too will miss Jason, for the reasons you mentioned. I'm also a little surprised that his skin is apparently pretty thin.

To explain ..

point 2 ... deliberately said given some of the hypocritical comments ...

point 3 .... No .. I do break the limit, and have been caught/done/paid for it. Difference is I KNOW when I'm breaking the limit, and if I get done I accept it, I don't whinge about "cash collectors" .. as they are doing the job of enforcing the law I have just broken.

EDIT

Ron, not wishing to pick an argument, but I'm amazed at the stated requirement to "keep an eye glued on the speedo" to avoid speeding.

My ears/eyes/arse tell me my speed to within a few mph, and if I wish to check it is a millisecond to glance down, same time as it takes to check the rearview mirror, or check that lights are off, or that indicator has cancelled, all require a "glance" at the binnacle. We don't describe THAT as dangerous ..... in fact we seem to require folks to do it more often.

Of course, check a text/answering the phone, changing a CD/radio station, having a drink/eating a sandwich/lighting a fag are all acceptable, but looking at your speedo is deemed "unsafe"

Don't see it myself, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Bigron]

But Nige, in the days of "proper" policing, there was an element of discretion on the part of the officer and prevailing conditions were taken into account; these days the automated detection and persecution are blunt weapons with no selectivity.
Yes, of course I broke the law, but I am of reasonable intelligence and have had many years of safe driving experience so I would NEVER knowingly put myself or others at risk.
Speed limits were set ages ago to take into account the worst possible scenarios and not always applicable.
I have often thought what it would be like to remove speed limits altogether and just prosecute the dangerous/careless/silly behaviour that REALLY compromises road safety, but that would mean real officers doing the job and more patrols, but it ain't ever going to happen - think of all the paperwork instead of just automated NIPs!

Ron.

[Entwood]

But Nige, in the days of "proper" policing, there was an element of discretion on the part of the officer and prevailing conditions were taken into account; these days the automated detection and persecution are blunt weapons with no selectivity.
Yes, of course I broke the law, but I am of reasonable intelligence and have had many years of safe driving experience so I would NEVER knowingly put myself or others at risk.
Speed limits were set ages ago to take into account the worst possible scenarios and not always applicable.
I have often thought what it would be like to remove speed limits altogether and just prosecute the dangerous/careless/silly behaviour that REALLY compromises road safety, but that would mean real officers doing the job and more patrols, but it ain't ever going to happen - think of all the paperwork instead of just automated NIPs!

Ron.

So, would you be happy for an extra 10p on a litre of petrol, or 1% on your income tax, or 5% on your rates, or ..... I could go on but won't ...

It takes money to pay for the extra manpower, money that comes from taxation, you can't have more of one without more of the other... there is no such thing as a free lunch or something for nothing.......

[YZ250]

Given that this thread has rapidly turned into a "have a go at the police" thread, it is hardly surprising jason has had enough and left.
.............................

I agree that it's a shame that Jason felt the need to leave, even though I was one of the posters criticising the police. I won't retract that criticism as I feel they have failed in their duty on several occasions, when we had required their support. It's no secret that I have very little time for them, not because I had broken the law but because I've needed their help when somebody else has. My lack of time for them has nothing to do with motoring either.
1. Attempted burglary on my house, cristal clear CCTV image of the men on my doorstep, phone the police who eventually attend, drink my coffee and eat my biscuits and the end result is zilch, jack, nothing.
2. Girl in street being attacked by recently dumped ex-boyfriend, my son intervenes and pushes the man away, gets hit with an iron bar and the guy runs off. My lad ends up in hospital with stitches and a scar but the police won't visit the guys house that night as 'his mum is a nice lady' (their words not mine) so they won't disturb her until the next morning.    The bar is found in her sons room, with my sons skin and hair still on it, and put in an evidence bag. It is left in a police van on a sweltering hot day, sweats in the polythene bag and goes rusty. It is deemed inadmissable to be used in court so the case is less clear cut.
Add this to the car scenario in this post, so yes, it's fair to say that I have no time for them.

I, for one, am sorry jason left, although I see why, as his was an interesting and knowledgeable insight in to many of the facets of policing we seldom think about. He will be missed.

As said, it's a shame when anybody feels the need to leave. The posts on this thread were from people giving their first hand impressions of what had happened to them. It was not intended as a personal dig at Jason, James or any other serving officer or ex officer.
An article in the paper today says that 84% of police officers are unhappy with the lack of respect they receive from the public. Maybe someone should tell them that this works both ways. Sadly all of the good things that the police do are eradicated by the thoughts of camera vans/police hiding in bushes with speed guns etc. Even though I've been done for speeding, this is not why I have gripes with them, I was guilty as charged and I'll get over it. It's just a shame that this is mostly what the public think of them so they are on a hiding to nothing.

I've said my piece but just to make it clear, this was not a snipe at an individual.

[Bigron]

Nige, as you know I think the world of you - such a lovely man - but please don't get me started on the abuse of our taxation system.
In brief ('cos I might get carried away!), we as motorists pay over £50 thousand million in motoring taxes and receive back only around £4 thousand million in motoring services. The balance is vired off into other things, like the NHS, Education and the like. All worthy causes, of course, but hardly fair or honest.

Ron.

[YZ250]

I've said my piece .....................

 
Oops, I meant peace. Hope Andy doesn't see that. 

[Mr Gav]

My ears/eyes/arse tell me my speed to within a few mph, and if I wish to check it is a millisecond to glance down, same time as it takes to check the rearview mirror, or check that lights are off, or that indicator has cancelled, all require a "glance" at the binnacle. We don't describe THAT as dangerous ..... in fact we seem to require folks to do it more often.

Totally agree with you there Entwood, I can judge my speed within a few mph while driving with the odd cursory glance just to make sure.

[Andy B]

I've said my piece .....................

 
Oops, I meant peace. Hope Andy doesn't see that.