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Author Topic: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?  (Read 5062 times)

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SUPASTU

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Hi,

I have looked around this forum but I don't think my questions have been answered yet - please forgive me if I am wrong!

Has the issue of plugging an aftermarket HU with low voltage pre-outs into the BOSE amp/speaker setup been sorted yet?  I have seen various threads on Audi forums where adapters can be purchased to feed pre-outs into the existing wiring has anything been done for the Vauxhall system?

If not, can the speaker feeds from the BOSE amp be channelled into the high-level inputs of a different amp, which could then be used to drive replacement speakers and a better sub option?  I accept that these feeds will have had their frequency ranges doctored by the amp, but I'm assuming BOSE did a good job with their choice of curves?

Stu


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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #1 on: 17 December 2011, 14:13:07 »

If your going for an aftermarket HU you will have to ditch the Bose amp and speakers and either fit new 4 Ohm speakers or new 4 Ohm Speakers and a new amp.
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Dave DND

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #2 on: 17 December 2011, 14:47:51 »

I think Question 7 on this link should be made into a sticky

http://www.bose.co.uk/GB/en/automotive-systems/f-a-q/?xforce-bypass-dd=1



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Michael2.6

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #3 on: 17 December 2011, 15:01:37 »

cant understand why you want to get rid of the bose sound system

bose is the best

bose system fitted to mercs and BMWs
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Dave DND

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #4 on: 17 December 2011, 15:44:27 »

cant understand why you want to get rid of the bose sound system

bose is the best

bose system fitted to mercs and BMWs

Because unlike the modern BOSE systems fitted to later vehicles, the Omega version was designed and built nearly 20 years ago using paper cone speakers, and whilst a fairly good system in its day, it has been vastly overtaken by modern speaker technology.

Move on.

BTW - never seen BOSE in a Merc or BMW ?
Could be wrong, but I thought they usually use Harmon or Mark levinson as their preferred audio upgrade.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #5 on: 17 December 2011, 15:55:19 »

Never seen Bose in a Merc either, Audi use them though....
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Dave DND

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #6 on: 17 December 2011, 16:09:20 »

Never seen Bose in a Merc either, Audi use them though....

As do Porsche and Honda
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D

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #7 on: 17 December 2011, 16:15:38 »

cant understand why you want to get rid of the bose sound system

bose is the best

bose system fitted to mercs and BMWs

While bose is ok, when compared to the dynaudio setup in Volvos' is when you realise that Bose is quite a few steps behind in sound quality.
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SUPASTU

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #8 on: 17 December 2011, 17:01:20 »

Thanks for the replies shame about the HU issue.

What about connecting the speaker feed from the BOSE amp into the high level inputs of a superior amp and using that to drive replacement speakers?

BOSE did do Mercedes - I owned a E class (1999 W210) with standard Mercedes stereo but sourced from the states a BOSE sub for this model.

See this link for Mercedes models:
http://www.bose.co.uk/GB/en/automotive-systems/automotive-systems/previous-models/mercedes-benz.jsp

My intention was to install it because it was designed to take no space up in the boot, replace the driver and power with a mono amp but because of shipping issues I never got it!!!

A work colleague owns a 2011 Mazda MX5 with Bose and its very good.

My plan (was) to source a high spec Omega estate with Bose and use Alpine up front (my preferred make for many years) and have the HU filter everything under 80htz from going into the BOSE setup, and then install a bigger sub run directly from the HU to deal with 80htz and below (or thereabouts). Just an idea now it seems.

Do any of the Omega BOSE head units run a CD autochanger?  In which case would the xcar link be suitable for getting an ipod to run direct through the HU?

http://www.xcarlink.co.uk/

Thanks for the advice.

Stu

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #9 on: 17 December 2011, 17:47:09 »

Neither Xcarlink, Connects2, Autoleads, Dension, Soundlinx, IQ, Maystar (nor any other manufacturer to my knowledge) have a solution for the Omega, and its unlikely that any manufacturer would invest any time or research into such an old car nowadays.

SUPASTU,

Please read the previous threads on this forum about mixing and matching BOSE stuff, virtually everything has been tries and virtually everything has failed, it is well documented and I must confess to be getting really tired of seeing and answering the same old questions now.

Anything BOSE and anything aftermarket in the Omega simply DO NOT MIX.

Changing any component within the Omega BOSE setup, whether it be the head unit, amp, speakers or wiring, will require THE ENTIRE SYSTEM to be changed, and that will include the head unit, amp, speakers and the wiring.

Now can we pleeeeeeeease move on ?

BTW - the BOSE sub in the USA Merc was a "bit of a hybrid" and was no means a full BOSE system like the Omega or other marques. As I recall, it was also such a poor performer that it was not taken up by the European market, who went in a different direction.
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SUPASTU

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #10 on: 17 December 2011, 19:45:33 »

I must confess to be getting really tired of seeing and answering the same old questions now.

Thanks for all the replies and the advice.

Dave - simple solution if your fed up of newbies asking 'old' questions is don't bother to respond if you find it tiresome and just ignore the thread.  Thanks for the warm welcome.

Stu
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #11 on: 18 December 2011, 10:52:04 »

Quote
Dave - simple solution if your fed up of newbies asking 'old' questions is don't bother to respond if you find it tiresome and just ignore the thread.

Amazing, 5th post by a newbie telling me(!) to ignore a thread about car audio !!

Stu - welcome to the forum, no, I really do mean that - and I look forward to some banter over the years.

But, your opening line of "BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?" followed by "I have looked around this forum" does suggest to me that you have not spent much time at all looking. I cant think of any aspect of BOSE connectivity, replacement or upgrade that has not been discussed to death here - you just need to look a little harder.

The forum would be a very dull and boring place if the questions being asked every day were exactly the same, and if that were the case, then people would stop using it.

I will continue to answer questions on car audio, thats why I am on here, its not for the love of the Omega, I`m here to assist those with car audio problems. But like all of the other experts in their own field on this forum, you will get far more help from them if you ask questions that have not already been answered so many times previously in recent posts. If we took your suggestion and simply ignored to respond to questions, then the forum woudl be full of people who needed help and received none.

No, this forum works very well the way it is, and I hope that you join in with us, and whatever your own chosen field of expertese is, that you can also share this knowledge with the other members.

 ;)
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TheBoy

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #12 on: 18 December 2011, 11:02:12 »

Just to confirm what VXL V6 and Dave DND has said, if you want a different HU in your Bose equipped car, you have to remove all the Bose stuff - HU, Amp, speakers etc.

You should be able to reuse the wiring for modest amps.


In addition, the only ways to get iPod audio into a Bose'd Omega is cassette adapters or FM adapters.  No CDC emulators available.


Hope that helps.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #13 on: 18 December 2011, 13:48:14 »

Would it help if I wrote a quick guide to BOSE to add to the FAQ pages, a bit like the CDR ones I did a while ago?

 ???
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #14 on: 18 December 2011, 13:53:49 »

Would it help if I wrote a quick guide to BOSE to add to the FAQ pages, a bit like the CDR ones I did a while ago?

 ???
I've done a quick and dirty sticky in this section, feel free to suggest additions/corrections :y
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Dave DND

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #15 on: 18 December 2011, 14:00:21 »

Would it help if I wrote a quick guide to BOSE to add to the FAQ pages, a bit like the CDR ones I did a while ago?

 ???
I've done a quick and dirty sticky in this section, feel free to suggest additions/corrections :y

How do I get around the 6000 character limit then?
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #16 on: 19 December 2011, 10:38:44 »

dave you seem to know about this subject quiet well, i have my parrot bluetooth car kit to go in my miggie with said bose system, this cuts the sound from stereo and puts the call through car speakers, is this safe considering what im reading on here    adey
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #17 on: 19 December 2011, 10:51:22 »

You may struggle a little with the Parrott kit, as it may not initially work too well with the BOSE.

However, I am aware that there is a little mod that can be done to alter / balance the output of the parrott to work with the BOSE, but I`m afraid that I do not have the specific details of what needs to be done.

Buut don`t worry, I know that there are a few Oofers that have already done this and got it to work quite well, so I would suggest to start a new thread about Parrott and BOSE just in case those in the know overlook it on this thread

 ;)
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #18 on: 19 December 2011, 11:51:29 »

Although you can feed the speaker output of a headunit with BTL output into the Bose amp if you can do the resistor calcs.
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tango

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #19 on: 19 December 2011, 18:56:33 »

Hi all
just thought ill come in and give my info on this one

first of all if you got a bose system fitted in your car
and you want to just change the headunit, its actually not that difficult.
all you have to do is use the line out on your new aftermarket headunit and connect these to the existing wiring loom on the speaker outs.
to make this simple. youll notice the speaker wires that connect to the headunit have a black sleeve around them, there should be four of these, one four each channel. cut these wires and connect male phono plugs on to these, this will allow you to plug these phonos stright into the back of your new hedunit.
thats it job done
you will lose the diplay and steering controls but thats life.
i had an alpine headunit with 4v preout connected like this and it ran smoothley without any issues

your other option is to chnage the amp ( i would recomend this) as i think the bose amp is shite , not powerful enough,
ive got 2 here if anybody wants them

using the same method as above,use the existing wiring, and convert them into phonos, you can install a new amp in the back
this will make a world of a difference
alot of new amps can run at 2ohms so no issues there
all you need to do is upgrade the power line and give the new amp a better ground


sorry if i havnt been able to expalin it properly but i see your in the midlands
im in birminghma near the swan if you want to pop around i can show you my setup and advise you better
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #20 on: 19 December 2011, 18:59:40 »

tango - I wouldn't recommend anyone uses an aftermarket HU with a Bose amp. Replace amp (and speakers!!) at same time. ie, rip the lot out ;)
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tango

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #21 on: 19 December 2011, 19:27:51 »

ive heard many people say that but ive been using one for a couple of years without any issues
so i dont see why not
what is that makes you not recomend it
its an amp, its got inputs and outputs
and conveniently it has four inputs, so all four channels can be used seperatly
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #22 on: 19 December 2011, 19:38:46 »

ive heard many people say that but ive been using one for a couple of years without any issues
so i dont see why not
what is that makes you not recomend it
its an amp, its got inputs and outputs
and conveniently it has four inputs, so all four channels can be used seperatly
That is precisely why, things are not that simple.

For starters, the Bose amp expects a non-standard voltage level for its inputs.  It also appears to have a non-standard response curve.  Not measured myself, but lead to believe its impedence is non-standard as well.


To take you analogy further, but keeping with bose, a speaker is a speaker, surely? Its got 2 wires, and makes a noise?  But plug a bose speaker into a chav headunit will tune said headunit to channel smoke, due to impedence issues.


Its a simple thing with Omega Bose. Very simple. Either use it in its entirity, or remove it all, entirely :). No halfway house :)

The Bose wiring makes it dead easy to fit a modest amp in place of the Bose amp. Modest amp, mind, as the power feeds aren't suitable for "look at me, I'm a chav" type amps.
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tango

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #23 on: 19 December 2011, 19:52:52 »

whats a non standard curve
and if you havnt tested how can you be so sure
ive tested and used for a couple of years, im a taxi driver, so my speakers get hammered 8 hours a day
this is without issues
the bose amp is no different from a standard amp
other than its inputs are fixed so not variable


and i reckon the only difference betwenn a bose unit and a standard unit is that the bose unit has its internal amplifier disabled, so speaker outs are turned into pre outs
i havnt measured them but i reckon they must be around 2 volt thats pretty much the same as other aftermarket headunits
but i had alpine unit with 4v preout doing a fantastic job
and ive already mentioned that to change the amp you can use the same wiring all you need to do is upgrade the power and ground cables
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #24 on: 19 December 2011, 19:57:37 »

whats a non standard curve
and if you havnt tested how can you be so sure
ive tested and used for a couple of years, im a taxi driver, so my speakers get hammered 8 hours a day
this is without issues
the bose amp is no different from a standard amp
other than its inputs are fixed so not variable
All audio devices expect certain characteristics with varying audio inputs. These are response curves. For example, a vinyl record deck needs a preamp with a RIAA response curve.

I haven't measure the impendence of the amp, other bits I have ;)

And to the last comment about the bose amp being no different...

//Panto mode on
Oh yes it is!

;)

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tango

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #25 on: 19 December 2011, 20:04:00 »

i think we gonna go round in circles

SUPASTU
if your local pop around ill show you my setup
ive got it working in my car and thats proof
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #26 on: 19 December 2011, 20:17:10 »

..........
SUPASTU
 .......
ive got it working in my car and thats proof

If ever you're any where near Paington you'll have to call in on DaveDND & show him where he's been going wrong all these years.  ;) ;) ;)
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #27 on: 19 December 2011, 20:31:38 »

Any modern aftermarket amp that can truly drive 2 ohm speaker loads will deliver enough power into 2 ohms that they will set fire to the cardboard Bose speakers in short order.

Why, oh, why would you invest in a (presumably, decent) head unit and amp and not replace those nasty speakers?

Best just to leave it be or replace the whole system.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #28 on: 19 December 2011, 20:40:24 »

The input to the Bose is a standard flat response for info.

Slightly surprised that a standard RCA out worked as the Bose does expect a slightly odd voltage balanced input.

At the end of the day, its only pretty basic audio stuff
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #29 on: 19 December 2011, 21:27:30 »

Is it fair to say, that the best head unit/system for the omega is the standard one?(within the realms of 2011/13/15 etc or whatever)
And that ANY alteration from the complete system will also have a down side, such as loss of basic functions, like check control, bc, or what ever...?

Theres no doubting technology has moved on since the design stage, but that same technology and the ice industry generally has yet to find a way to improve on the system as a whole, without loosing at least part of the functionality. Ie, there are better/newer systems, but none have a remote dash monted display that work in omega, for example.

In short, if there is a system for omega that works better than standard with out loosing functions, then nobody on here knows about it. And no cd70 doesnt count....yet. Apparently.

If there is, then bring it on.... :y
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #30 on: 19 December 2011, 21:41:10 »

Is it fair to say, that the best head unit/system for the omega is the standard one?(within the realms of 2011/13/15 etc or whatever)
And that ANY alteration from the complete system will also have a down side, such as loss of basic functions, like check control, bc, or what ever...?

Theres no doubting technology has moved on since the design stage, but that same technology and the ice industry generally has yet to find a way to improve on the system as a whole, without loosing at least part of the functionality. Ie, there are better/newer systems, but none have a remote dash monted display that work in omega, for example.

In short, if there is a system for omega that works better than standard with out loosing functions, then nobody on here knows about it. And no cd70 doesnt count....yet. Apparently.

If there is, then bring it on.... :y
And that would require loosing the Bose amp/speakers (but maybe possible to use another amp?)
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #31 on: 19 December 2011, 21:46:07 »

The input to the Bose is a standard flat response for info.
Hmmm, when a ccr600 or a non bose aware ccr2006 is fitted to bose amp, you have to adjust the tone controls as you adjust the volume.  Which would imply, to my simple mind, the response of the non bose HU (or bose aware in non bose mode) is different to bose HU (in bose mode)....
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #32 on: 19 December 2011, 21:47:33 »

SUPASTU
if your local pop around ill show you my setup
ive got it working in my car and thats proof
SUPASTU, if you want to replace the HU, I'd do it correctly, and fit a modest amp in place of the bose one, and some decent quality speakers.

:)
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Dave DND

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #33 on: 20 December 2011, 08:26:32 »

There will always be those that come on here saying that they have done it. I could probably run the engine on two star fuel, but just because you can, does not mean that you should.

The Alpine head unit with 4v preouts would probably fire the BOSE amp up and run it, but as the protection circuit of the head unit is being bypassed running the pre-outs, you have no safeguard in place. You would still have low end volume issues, although the 4V is unlikely to overdrive the BOSE amp. However, you are also feeding in a +ve and -Ve signal to the amp instead of a balanced line input that it is looking for. Yes, its probably running, but if you look at the characteristics of what is going on, that system is so strained, you are just lucky something has not gone pop.

Ok, you have been running it in a taxi all day - so what? I have dedicated car audio engineers spread over 7 repair benches that have been repairing these for 19 years where people don`t listen to what we are saying - not quite sure what your point is? Oh well, more money for me I suppose in repair charges.



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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #34 on: 20 December 2011, 08:44:15 »

The input to the Bose is a standard flat response for info.
Hmmm, when a ccr600 or a non bose aware ccr2006 is fitted to bose amp, you have to adjust the tone controls as you adjust the volume.  Which would imply, to my simple mind, the response of the non bose HU (or bose aware in non bose mode) is different to bose HU (in bose mode)....

Good observation TB, and you are indeed correct. It is not just the output level that is attenuated, but the output dynamic frequency range is also altered when a head unit is programmed into BOSE mode, so yes, you can indeed actually play around with the volume by altering the tone controls.

 ;)
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #35 on: 20 December 2011, 08:47:14 »

The input to the Bose is a standard flat response for info.
Hmmm, when a ccr600 or a non bose aware ccr2006 is fitted to bose amp, you have to adjust the tone controls as you adjust the volume.  Which would imply, to my simple mind, the response of the non bose HU (or bose aware in non bose mode) is different to bose HU (in bose mode)....

There is a curve within the amp (plus filtering to support the bass speaker install and remove the lowe frequencies from the door units) but, this is basicaly how Bose do pretty much all thier speaker setups.

I would infer its this that you are seeing and is related more to the minimal volume control you get using such a setup.

I have a few Bose amps in the garage, I will crack one open and do some measurements, I will also do a frequency plot using a test disc to.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #36 on: 20 December 2011, 08:48:24 »

I just love this comment from the Taxi driver

Quote
i think we gonna go round in circles

 ;D
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #37 on: 20 December 2011, 08:49:58 »

Quote
I have a few Bose amps in the garage, I will crack one open and do some measurements, I will also do a frequency plot using a test disc to.

Pretty sure we have some test data here we did years ago if you want me to forward it over
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #38 on: 20 December 2011, 09:19:53 »

Oh, and just another one to throw into the discussion -

BOSE systems from different Marques are also not interchangeable. For instance, a Honda BOSE head unit will not run the Omega BOSE system. The systems really were designed specifically for a single vehicle type.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #39 on: 20 December 2011, 14:07:11 »

I just love this comment from the Taxi driver

Quote
i think we gonna go round in circles

 ;D


see its funny when someone suggests something out of the norm on here, everyone wants to have a go
dave you sell car audio stuff and maybe have a lot of knowledge in it and other members on here respect that fact
i also have a lot of respect for people who have knowledge and experience
i am 34 years old
yes i drive a taxi
but i have a lot of knowledge when it comes to car audio
ive been installing car audio since i was 16 and have yet to opps up
and for the record you must have heard of bass-junkies in wolverhamton
i ran their shop in birmingham for a short while until i got bored of working for someone
i aint no noob and i have previously said i have vast experience in car audio
i have won bass competions and do car audio as a hobby
just cuz i dont come on here often dont mean i chat poo

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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #40 on: 20 December 2011, 14:57:14 »

Tango,

Sorry mate, but I thought it funny that a Taxi driver should comment about going around in circles.

And for the record, I never questioned you car audio knowlegde or background - if you have competed in the Bass competitions then you will have been aware of us also - From when we assisted with the feature on C4 Big Breakfast that ran for months to starting the Loud! Association - and the first car in the world to get a pure "flat 40" was one of ours - you will understand the level of knowledge required to get that - Bass Junkies? hell, we even did your repairs for many years !!

However, knowledge gained from playing around installing a few large systems, or even running a large shop is very different to running a warranty repair centre on behalf of the manufacturers, and when I say that BOSE should not be connected to aftermarket systems, it is based on the knowledge and experience of what can and does go wrong.

Even the manufacturers (BOSE) say that it should not be done - and yet, you appear to know more than the people who designed the system in the first place and still reckon it can be done. Amongst others, we are also Philips trained and I know EXACTLY what the BOSE specs are for the OEM configured head units, but I am not permitted to disclose any technical or confidential data on a public forum- so I will simply say:

Sorry, but you are wrong.

And this is not the place to argue or fall out over it
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #41 on: 20 December 2011, 17:32:57 »

actually to avoid muddying the waters ,   i'm taking this point out of the public eye.....   


« Last Edit: 20 December 2011, 17:48:53 by MaxV6 »
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #42 on: 20 December 2011, 18:06:02 »

actually to avoid muddying the waters ,   i'm taking this point out of the public eye.....

I`ll get back to you on that one, once I have consulted my book of words . . .

But yes, we are trying to reach a solution also.
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Re: BOSE questions - I don't think these have been answered yet?
« Reply #43 on: 22 December 2011, 16:30:34 »

whats a non standard curve
and if you havnt tested how can you be so sure
ive tested and used for a couple of years, im a taxi driver, so my speakers get hammered 8 hours a day
this is without issues
the bose amp is no different from a standard amp
other than its inputs are fixed so not variable


and i reckon the only difference betwenn a bose unit and a standard unit is that the bose unit has its internal amplifier disabled, so speaker outs are turned into pre outs
i havnt measured them but i reckon they must be around 2 volt thats pretty much the same as other aftermarket headunits
but i had alpine unit with 4v preout doing a fantastic job
and ive already mentioned that to change the amp you can use the same wiring all you need to do is upgrade the power and ground cables

Been mentioned on here plenty of times, big differences between Bose Amps, HU's and aftermarket stuff.

Bose HU output level is reduced true but not to Line Level standards, for starters the Bose HU output is Balanced at low impedance, unlike Aftermarket HU with Line Level, Unbalanced outputs to drive Amps, same again the other way round the Bose Amp input is expecting a Balanced Signal with a lower impedance for it to drive.

Forgetting voltage for the time bring, miss matching impedance and un / balanced i/o can make a variety of frequency response errors, Head Room and Dynamic Range will probably go out the window and quiescent background noise being pumped up or down like a yoyo, not to mention what the Hardware is trying to cope with, your maybe get sound through it but not totally convinced it will sound like it should, IMHO.

Chris.       
« Last Edit: 22 December 2011, 16:45:06 by zirk »
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