Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lizzie Zoom]

Well, no one has mentioned it yet, but dif you see the ITV's Fighter Pilot: The Real Top Gun?

I found it fascinating.  The training of new fast jet pilots, to experienced pilots learning to fly the F35 Lightening, which gave us some insight into that aircraft. All great stuff!

Just two questions though for people on here who know these things:

What is the big panel that is raised behind the canopy on the F35, that looks like a giant air brake, but I noticed was raised during a traditional, long runway, take off?

Also they quoted a top speed of 1200 mph for the F35, but the old English Electric Lightening could at least do 1300 mph (apparently, but subject to it's "secret" classification). The fastest Mk24 Spitfire in level flight could do 454 mph.  So is that quoted "1200 mph" for the new F35 Lightening purely for the public's ears and is in actual fact a classified far higher speed than that?  For £100 million, in 2019, I would expect the F35 to go a lot faster than the old Lightening!

 

[zirk]

Well, no one has mentioned it yet, but dif you see the ITV's Fighter Pilot: The Real Top Gun?

I found it fascinating.  The training of new fast jet pilots, to experienced pilots learning to fly the F35 Lightening, which gave us some insight into that aircraft. All great stuff!

Just two questions though for people on here who know these things:

What is the big panel that is raised behind the canopy on the F35, that looks like a giant air brake, but I noticed was raised during a traditional, long runway, take off?

Also they quoted a top speed of 1200 mph for the F35, but the old English Electric Lightening could at least do 1300 mph (apparently, but subject to it's "secret" classification). The fastest Mk24 Spitfire in level flight could do 454 mph.  So is that quoted "1200 mph" for the new F35 Lightening purely for the public's ears and is in actual fact a classified far higher speed than that?  For £100 million, in 2019, I would expect the F35 to go a lot faster than the old Lightening!

 

Shoddy Workmanship again, should have been screwed down.

[scimmy_man]

I watched it
I was expecting more "equality" speil for the girl

[Lizzie Zoom]

I watched it
I was expecting more "equality" speil for the girl

It is recognised in 2019 that women can do all these jobs, no more or less than a man can.  So there is no need to "hammer" the equality issue anymore thank goodness

[scimmy_man]

until they have to make a decision at "that time" of month?

[STEMO]

I watched it
I was expecting more "equality" speil for the girl

It is recognised in 2019 that women can do all these jobs, no more or less than a man can.  So there is no need to "hammer" the equality issue anymore thank goodness

Let's see how far she goes. 

[LC0112G]

What is the big panel that is raised behind the canopy on the F35, that looks like a giant air brake, but I noticed was raised during a traditional, long runway, take off?

The big 'lid' covers a large fan which blows downwards in the 'B' version of the F-35 when it wants to hover, or perform a short take off. The take off you saw in he program was not a conventional take off - it was a simulation of a short take off from a carrier, hence some downwards thrust required, thence the doors all open. There are similar barn door openings on the underside of the jet. The fan is positioned just behind the cockpit - the other 'non jump jet' versions of the F-35 (the A and C) have an extra fuel tank here which almost doubles the fuel capacity and therefore range. The fan is coupled to the main engine via a shaft and clutch, but the clutch only engages when the fan doors open. The exhaust nozzle of the jet pipe also pivots downwards. Therefore, when in the hover the jet is balancing on two 'jets' of air, one cold from the fan behind the cockpit, and one (very) hot from the normal tail pipe.

Also they quoted a top speed of 1200 mph for the F35, but the old English Electric Lightening could at least do 1300 mph (apparently, but subject to it's "secret" classification). The fastest Mk24 Spitfire in level flight could do 454 mph.  So is that quoted "1200 mph" for the new F35 Lightening purely for the public's ears and is in actual fact a classified far higher speed than that?  For £100 million, in 2019, I would expect the F35 to go a lot faster than the old Lightening!

 

Top speed is largely irrelevant - it's not an interceptor that needs to race off after a target. It's a (stealth) strike fighter, and in RAF service will (has!) replace(d) the Harrier, Jaguar and Tornado.  There is no real need for speed - you ain't gonna outrun a Mach5 SA300 or SA400 if it manages to get a lock on you so better to sneak in at moderate speed (less infra red signature) and take out the SA300/400 at extreme range. All your weapons and fuel are internal so your radar signature is as low as it could be. Racing in at medium/high level at Mach 2 with external fuel and weapons isn't going to end well for you.

The other problem with going fast is you burn a LOT of fuel in re-heat (afterburner) and that drastically reduces time in the air and range. Many fighter pilots have flown fighters in the past capable of Mach2+, but if you talk to them they very very rarely went supersonic, and almost never went Mach2+. Indeed, many fighters advertised as Mach2+ can only do it 'clean' meaning they aren't able to do it whilst carrying external weapons or fuel/drop tanks. When loaded out with a realistic payload they'll struggle to even go supersonic, particularly at low level. Whereas the F-35 carries all its fuel and weapons internally, so can do the 'book' speed regardless of what it's carrying.

For the RAF/RN, the F-35B will be a mud mover chugging around at medium level tying to avoid detection by anyone and striking it's targets. The Typhoon will be the fancy Dan fighter making sure no enemy fighters get close enough to cause damage. AWACS will hopefully be several hundred miles away detecting hostiles and relaying their position to F35 and Typhoon so they can either decide to engage or employ tactics to avoid. 

[LC0112G]

Or a picture paints a thousand words ...



https://www.icas.org/media/pdf/ICAS%20Congress%20General%20Lectures/2016/2016%20Innovation%20award%20LiftSystemTalk.pdf

[Lizzie Zoom]

I watched it
I was expecting more "equality" speil for the girl

It is recognised in 2019 that women can do all these jobs, no more or less than a man can.  So there is no need to "hammer" the equality issue anymore thank goodness

Let's see how far she goes. 

There is already 7 other female pilots in the military, with some more with the airlines

Seeing that many brave ATA WOMEN flew WW2 warplanes to their new bases in the UK, and even more than that, a female force of Soviet Union pilots, of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment, known as Nachthexen, or “night witches", due to the strange noise their early bombers made, dropping 23,000 tons of bombs on Nazi targets during 30,000 missions during WW2, it should not be questioned about women flying aircraft into battle.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Or a picture paints a thousand words ...



https://www.icas.org/media/pdf/ICAS%20Congress%20General%20Lectures/2016/2016%20Innovation%20award%20LiftSystemTalk.pdf

Thanks LC0112G

So does that flap, exposing the vertical lift fan, being open aid forward flight take off?

It certainly was shown open when it appeared an F35 was taking off in the traditional manner, as indeed one is shown doing so at the end of your link.

[LC0112G]

Or a picture paints a thousand words ...



https://www.icas.org/media/pdf/ICAS%20Congress%20General%20Lectures/2016/2016%20Innovation%20award%20LiftSystemTalk.pdf

Thanks LC0112G

So does that flap, exposing the vertical lift fan, being open aid forward flight take off?

It certainly was shown open when it appeared an F35 was taking off in the traditional manner.

I've no doubt the bin lid has a effect on short take offs, and the flight control computer probably takes it into account, but I doubt it's actually considered an aerodynamic surface providing much lift.

The bin lid is not opened for a normal conventional take off, but such a take off would take several thousand feet of runway.

The short take off that you saw in the program just takes a few hundred feet  - enough to get off the deck of a carrier without requiring a catapult - with or without a ski-jump. The give away is the huge plume of spray as he took off from a wet runway. That's caused by the downwards facing lift fan blow-drying the runway for them :-) If the bin lid were shut it wouldn't disappear into a cloud of steam like that.

[LC0112G]

There is already 7 other female pilots in the military, with some more with the airlines

Seeing that many brave ATA WOMEN flew WW2 warplanes to their new bases in the UK, and even more than that, a female force of Soviet Union pilots, of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment, known as Nachthexen, or “night witches", due to the strange noise their early bombers made, dropping 23,000 tons of bombs on Nazi targets during 30,000 missions during WW2, it should not be questioned about women flying aircraft into battle.

So what happened to the first female Red Arrows pilot 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Or a picture paints a thousand words ...



https://www.icas.org/media/pdf/ICAS%20Congress%20General%20Lectures/2016/2016%20Innovation%20award%20LiftSystemTalk.pdf

Thanks LC0112G

So does that flap, exposing the vertical lift fan, being open aid forward flight take off?

It certainly was shown open when it appeared an F35 was taking off in the traditional manner.

I've no doubt the bin lid has a effect on short take offs, and the flight control computer probably takes it into account, but I doubt it's actually considered an aerodynamic surface providing much lift.

The bin lid is not opened for a normal conventional take off, but such a take off would take several thousand feet of runway.

The short take off that you saw in the program just takes a few hundred feet  - enough to get off the deck of a carrier without requiring a catapult - with or without a ski-jump. The give away is the huge plume of spray as he took off from a wet runway. That's caused by the downwards facing lift fan drying the runway for them :-) If the bin lid were shut it wouldn't disappear into a cloud of steam like that.

Thanks for clarifying that

I knew you would know the answer

How about the speed question?

[Lizzie Zoom]

There is already 7 other female pilots in the military, with some more with the airlines

Seeing that many brave ATA WOMEN flew WW2 warplanes to their new bases in the UK, and even more than that, a female force of Soviet Union pilots, of the 588th Night Bomber Regiment, known as Nachthexen, or “night witches", due to the strange noise their early bombers made, dropping 23,000 tons of bombs on Nazi targets during 30,000 missions during WW2, it should not be questioned about women flying aircraft into battle.

So what happened to the first female Red Arrows pilot 

Like with many male RAF pilots, she could not cut it at that level in air display mode, in tight formations, for entertainment purposes only.  Come the need to enter into full combat women will perform or not to the same degree as male pilots will perform or not.  That is just a fact of life with flying regardless of gender

[LC0112G]

How about the speed question?

The top speed will be classified, but it just doesn't matter for the role the F-35 plays. It's fast enough for what it needs to do. I would be amazed if its anywhere close to being as quick as a clean Lightning. Why do you think it matters?

And even if it did matter, you'd have to specify at what altitude. F-15 is/was Mach 2.5 at about 40K feet, but not once you put external weapons and tanks on it.  Concorde was Mach 2 at 50-60K feet. SR71 saw Mach 3+ at 80K feet. The upper atmosphere isn't where you're going to find F-35's operating.

None of that is relevant to a Strike Fighter which typically operates 10K feet and below. There isn't much that is Mach 2 below 10K feet, and certainly not once you hang bombs, missiles and fuel tanks on it. F-111 was supposedly Mach 1.2 at treetop level and was generally considered the fastest down in the weeds.

At 10K feet I'd expect the F35 to hold it's own against any comparible aircraft. Remember, everything is internal on an F-35, whereas weapons are generally external on everything else. The Lightning won't be doing Mach 2 at 10K feet carrying two 1000lb bombs for 500 miles :-)