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Author Topic: No milk float this  (Read 7689 times)

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terry paget

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No milk float this
« on: 02 September 2019, 16:31:49 »

2.5 petrol manual estate
Early yesterday morning I drove my 20 year old Omega 140 miles at motorway speeds, using lights and heater, and arrived at Enfield with my energy store still 3/4 full. Try that in a battery car.
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #1 on: 02 September 2019, 17:36:36 »

Drove mine Yeovil to Mildenhall (google says 213 miles), then Mildenhall to Waddington (91 miles) then Waddington to Fairford (137 miles) and finally Fairford back to Yeovil (86 miles). Started off with a full tank, and put about 45L in when the low fuel warning lamp came on in Stow-on-the-Wold. Set off at 6am, and home by 7pm. Still got about one third of a tank in it this morning (say 20L).

So around 530 miles - mostly motorway/dual carriageway, and mostly high speed.

One B-52, one C-17, 7 Israeli F-15, 1 Israeli C-130, 9 German Typhoons, 4 Italian Typhoons, a few USAF Tankers, Herks, V-22's and RAF bit's and bobs. Sadly no B-2's though. 

Can't do that in a milk float.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #2 on: 02 September 2019, 17:54:40 »

Well, you could, but you would have stopped for the night. Twice. ;D

My first 3.2 (estate with 70 litre tank, saloon is 65 litres ;)) regularly did Horsham to Potter Heigham and back along with a couple of runs into Norwich or Wroxham on a single tank, typically 380-420 miles of pretty mixed driving :y

Equally, hammer down, and range would be south of 250 miles :-X

For comparison, currently getting 360-390 out of the trolley, (54 litre tank).

Interesting mix of planes there 8)
« Last Edit: 02 September 2019, 17:57:53 by Doctor Gollum »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #3 on: 02 September 2019, 18:20:28 »

Drove mine Yeovil to Mildenhall (google says 213 miles), then Mildenhall to Waddington (91 miles) then Waddington to Fairford (137 miles) and finally Fairford back to Yeovil (86 miles). Started off with a full tank, and put about 45L in when the low fuel warning lamp came on in Stow-on-the-Wold. Set off at 6am, and home by 7pm. Still got about one third of a tank in it this morning (say 20L).

So around 530 miles - mostly motorway/dual carriageway, and mostly high speed.

One B-52, one C-17, 7 Israeli F-15, 1 Israeli C-130, 9 German Typhoons, 4 Italian Typhoons, a few USAF Tankers, Herks, V-22's and RAF bit's and bobs. Sadly no B-2's though. 

Can't do that in a milk float.

You obviously have had a great time! 8) 8) :D :y
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #4 on: 02 September 2019, 19:36:37 »

 550L about 1900ks
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #5 on: 02 September 2019, 21:13:14 »

Drove mine Yeovil to Mildenhall (google says 213 miles), then Mildenhall to Waddington (91 miles) then Waddington to Fairford (137 miles) and finally Fairford back to Yeovil (86 miles). Started off with a full tank, and put about 45L in when the low fuel warning lamp came on in Stow-on-the-Wold. Set off at 6am, and home by 7pm. Still got about one third of a tank in it this morning (say 20L).

So around 530 miles - mostly motorway/dual carriageway, and mostly high speed.

One B-52, one C-17, 7 Israeli F-15, 1 Israeli C-130, 9 German Typhoons, 4 Italian Typhoons, a few USAF Tankers, Herks, V-22's and RAF bit's and bobs. Sadly no B-2's though. 

Can't do that in a milk float.

You obviously have had a great time! 8) 8) :D :y

If you know where to look (and I've given you more than a bit of a clue!) then all the above are visible at locations in the UK for the next couple of weeks. Yes including three B-2's - which I'll have another crack at on Wednesday on my way to the Bristol ABS meet.

Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #6 on: 02 September 2019, 21:31:25 »

Drove mine Yeovil to Mildenhall (google says 213 miles), then Mildenhall to Waddington (91 miles) then Waddington to Fairford (137 miles) and finally Fairford back to Yeovil (86 miles). Started off with a full tank, and put about 45L in when the low fuel warning lamp came on in Stow-on-the-Wold. Set off at 6am, and home by 7pm. Still got about one third of a tank in it this morning (say 20L).

So around 530 miles - mostly motorway/dual carriageway, and mostly high speed.

One B-52, one C-17, 7 Israeli F-15, 1 Israeli C-130, 9 German Typhoons, 4 Italian Typhoons, a few USAF Tankers, Herks, V-22's and RAF bit's and bobs. Sadly no B-2's though. 

Can't do that in a milk float.

You obviously have had a great time! 8) 8) :D :y

If you know where to look (and I've given you more than a bit of a clue!) then all the above are visible at locations in the UK for the next couple of weeks. Yes including three B-2's - which I'll have another crack at on Wednesday on my way to the Bristol ABS meet.

Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

Not even at Fairford where so many go to watch superb aircraft - or at least did when I used to go there with my ex!  :o

 Some great memories! 8) 8) :y
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STEMO

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #7 on: 02 September 2019, 21:49:00 »

2.5 petrol manual estate
Early yesterday morning I drove my 20 year old Omega 140 miles at motorway speeds, using lights and heater, and arrived at Enfield with my energy store still 3/4 full. Try that in a battery car.
I'd have done on 1/8th of a tank. Try that in a petrol.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #8 on: 02 September 2019, 22:58:26 »

..
Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

Yep, this is what I keep saying. In a couple of weeks I've got a similar trip to do - with a 1500 kg glider trailer on the back.

Have they made a leccy car that's even capable of towing yet? None of the hybrids I considered are (people who tow buy chelsea tractors these days, apparently. Not me!). ::)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #9 on: 03 September 2019, 07:39:02 »

.........................
Yep, this is what I keep saying. In a couple of weeks I've got a similar trip to do - with a 1500 kg glider trailer on the back.

Have they made a leccy car that's even capable of towing yet? None of the hybrids I considered are (people who tow buy chelsea tractors these days, apparently. Not me!). ::)

Tesla Model X SUV.  :y  It has a decent kerb weight as well, but is quite expensive.  :)  Hauling a van/trailer about would seriously hit the range, although it still pulls like a train with a van on the back apparently.  :y
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Marks DTM Calib

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #10 on: 03 September 2019, 07:48:45 »

One B-52, one C-17, 7 Israeli F-15, 1 Israeli C-130, 9 German Typhoons, 4 Italian Typhoons, a few USAF Tankers, Herks, V-22's and RAF bit's and bobs. Sadly no B-2's though. 

Can't do that in a milk float.

Not even at Fairford where so many go to watch superb aircraft - or at least did when I used to go there with my ex!  :o

 Some great memories! 8) 8) :y

You would tick the vast majority of them off at Fairford in recent years, plus of course more of various vintages (Harrier there this year displaying, stealth bomber fly past last year etc etc)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #11 on: 03 September 2019, 08:10:00 »

.........................
Yep, this is what I keep saying. In a couple of weeks I've got a similar trip to do - with a 1500 kg glider trailer on the back.

Have they made a leccy car that's even capable of towing yet? None of the hybrids I considered are (people who tow buy chelsea tractors these days, apparently. Not me!). ::)

Tesla Model X SUV.  :y  It has a decent kerb weight as well, but is quite expensive.  :)  Hauling a van/trailer about would seriously hit the range, although it still pulls like a train with a van on the back apparently.  :y
Not to mention the £130k price tag :o
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aaronjb

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #12 on: 03 September 2019, 09:23:37 »

.........................
Yep, this is what I keep saying. In a couple of weeks I've got a similar trip to do - with a 1500 kg glider trailer on the back.

Have they made a leccy car that's even capable of towing yet? None of the hybrids I considered are (people who tow buy chelsea tractors these days, apparently. Not me!). ::)

Tesla Model X SUV.  :y  It has a decent kerb weight as well, but is quite expensive.  :)  Hauling a van/trailer about would seriously hit the range, although it still pulls like a train with a van on the back apparently.  :y
Not to mention the £130k price tag :o

Pretty comparable to a similarly specced and performant RRS/FF RR/Cayenne/etc, though, I imagine..
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #13 on: 03 September 2019, 09:47:06 »

A quick rummage suggests £84k start, so I guess that by the time you have scatterbombed the option list, you are probably going to be well north of £100k...

That said, second hand you really are at the mercy of the original purchaser... I know of an S320L (£53k) that had pretty much every single option ticked except parking sensors... A £300 saving on a car that ended up at nearly £78k ::)
« Last Edit: 03 September 2019, 09:49:51 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #14 on: 03 September 2019, 12:42:11 »

Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

With a model 3 long range I'd estimate you would need two 20 minute stops  and one 10-15 minutes stop, this would be using superchargers the OP passed on his drive around. You can cut these times nearly in half once the upgraded supercharger network is rolled out over the next 18-24m and I am yet to see anyone queuing at a tesla charging station. So you're looking at adding an hour to what is a pretty rare usage case. In the main I have found that having an EV has cut down the time I spend refuelling, not increased it. 

Mainstream ev's have been in existence less than a decade (my personal definition would be that mainstream ev's started with the nissan leaf in 2010). In that time the range has tripled and performance has gone from a joke to rivalling the quickest mainstream ICE cars. *Ever* is a long time, but I think if you give it 10 years more you'll see 300 real world miles and 250kw charging as standard meaning that journey would involve a couple of 5-10minute quick charges. Its also worth noting that the OP clearly hasn't counted the (apparently) many hours spent maintaining his ICE car, which would not be spent on an EV.

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

Why? My golf is already outdated tech and my daily commute is either 110 or 170 miles round trip and I can guarantee I spend less time refuelling my car than anyone with an ICE vehicle doing the same 12000 miles I've covered since March. I get to work and spend 10-15s plugging it in and maybe 5s plugging it in when I get home at night.

With the latest generation of cars, I could save myself that 10-15s at work, at which point id spend 25-30s a week on refuelling. Even going to a petrol station in the dead of night or early morning (my former preferred time) it took me that long to have my credit card details checked by the self service machine, much less pump the diesel.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #15 on: 03 September 2019, 12:53:19 »

I've looked at buying a Tesla model 3 performance.

The thing that puts me off is that it's an appliance more than it is a car. Yes, it will be nippy but it is without soul. I don't mind my microwave having no soul The same goes for my electric tin opener. I struggle when it comes to a car. :-\

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Nick W

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #16 on: 03 September 2019, 13:00:57 »

I've looked at buying a Tesla model 3 performance.

The thing that puts me off is that it's an appliance more than it is a car. Yes, it will be nippy but it is without soul. I don't mind my microwave having no soul The same goes for my electric tin opener. I struggle when it comes to a car. :-\


Cars are an appliance. We've become so used to them that we have to make up reasons to like spending so much money on them. What you call 'soul' is caused by some major deficiencies in the underlying engineering: noise and vibration. Getting rid of those is one of the better reasons for switching to EVs.


If you frequently do journeys of more than 250(aprox) miles at a time, then an EV probably isn't the best choice. But the occasional trip is doable with some planning. As Jimmy said, that's time that you've gained from other places.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #17 on: 03 September 2019, 13:07:53 »

I've looked at buying a Tesla model 3 performance.

The thing that puts me off is that it's an appliance more than it is a car. Yes, it will be nippy but it is without soul. I don't mind my microwave having no soul The same goes for my electric tin opener. I struggle when it comes to a car. :-\


Cars are an appliance. We've become so used to them that we have to make up reasons to like spending so much money on them. What you call 'soul' is caused by some major deficiencies in the underlying engineering: noise and vibration. Getting rid of those is one of the better reasons for switching to EVs.


If you frequently do journeys of more than 250(aprox) miles at a time, then an EV probably isn't the best choice. But the occasional trip is doable with some planning. As Jimmy said, that's time that you've gained from other places.

From an objective point of view you may be correct regarding 'soul and character'

I suppose the old steam trains had soul and character. I assume the flaws and faults I call soul are not needed in the modern world......  but they make me feel good. :y


 
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Nick W

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #18 on: 03 September 2019, 13:14:43 »


From an objective point of view you may be correct regarding 'soul and character'

I suppose the old steam trains had soul and character. I assume the flaws and faults I call soul are not needed in the modern world......  but they make me feel good. :y


Character, yes that's the appalling inefficiency of a steam engine -  a very low single number that makes the pathetic 20%ish that I/C engines manage look impressive.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #19 on: 03 September 2019, 13:30:49 »

.........................
Yep, this is what I keep saying. In a couple of weeks I've got a similar trip to do - with a 1500 kg glider trailer on the back.

Have they made a leccy car that's even capable of towing yet? None of the hybrids I considered are (people who tow buy chelsea tractors these days, apparently. Not me!). ::)

Tesla Model X SUV.  :y  It has a decent kerb weight as well, but is quite expensive.  :)  Hauling a van/trailer about would seriously hit the range, although it still pulls like a train with a van on the back apparently.  :y
Not to mention the £130k price tag :o

Pretty comparable to a similarly specced and performant RRS/FF RR/Cayenne/etc, though, I imagine..

Much more than in reality, there are not that many comfort options on the Teslas and the audio systems are very poor for segment
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #20 on: 03 September 2019, 13:43:29 »


From an objective point of view you may be correct regarding 'soul and character'

I suppose the old steam trains had soul and character. I assume the flaws and faults I call soul are not needed in the modern world......  but they make me feel good. :y


Character, yes that's the appalling inefficiency of a steam engine -  a very low single number that makes the pathetic 20%ish that I/C engines manage look impressive.



Ah yes.....but what about the sound, the smell, the visual drama of a steam train. :y

What about sex on the London- Scotland sleeper. ;)

Besides......if Lizzie learns you are running down steam trains she'll be slipping a noose around your neck. ::) ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #21 on: 03 September 2019, 13:55:07 »

Ah yes.....but what about the sound, the smell, the visual drama of a steam train. :y

What about sex on the London- Scotland sleeper. ;)

Besides......if Lizzie learns you are running down steam trains she'll be slipping a noose around your neck. ::) ;)


Sound - it's waste noise.
Smell - missed that first time around, would you go around sniffing horse shit?
Visual drama - oooh get you :-*


sex on the Scottish sleeper is like sex after oysters: it's to take your mind off where you're going/just eaten.


I didn't mention trains, you did.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #22 on: 03 September 2019, 13:58:23 »

Ah yes.....but what about the sound, the smell, the visual drama of a steam train. :y

What about sex on the London- Scotland sleeper. ;)

Besides......if Lizzie learns you are running down steam trains she'll be slipping a noose around your neck. ::) ;)


Sound - it's waste noise.
Smell - missed that first time around, would you go around sniffing horse shit?
Visual drama - oooh get you
:-*


sex on the Scottish sleeper is like sex after oysters: it's to take your mind off where you're going/just eaten.


I didn't mention trains, you did.

I get the feeling you are a 'head over heart' type of guy. :) ;).....a pragmatist. :)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #23 on: 03 September 2019, 14:30:48 »


From an objective point of view you may be correct regarding 'soul and character'

I suppose the old steam trains had soul and character. I assume the flaws and faults I call soul are not needed in the modern world......  but they make me feel good. :y


Character, yes that's the appalling inefficiency of a steam engine -  a very low single number that makes the pathetic 20%ish that I/C engines manage look impressive.

Ah, yes, the great Chief Mechanical Engineers, like Churchwood, Collett, Stanier, Gresley, Bullied, Riddles, all spent their lives upping the limits of performance, constantly working on new designs, methods, and manufacture of the basic form which came from the Rocket. Good Welsh steam coal also had it's effect, as opposed to some awful stuff the railways had to put up with, that then initiated another drive to improve the engine itself.

Nothing though could match or exceed the performance, ease of maintenance, and pure comfort for the crews, of the diesels then electrics. ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #24 on: 03 September 2019, 14:34:44 »


From an objective point of view you may be correct regarding 'soul and character'

I suppose the old steam trains had soul and character. I assume the flaws and faults I call soul are not needed in the modern world......  but they make me feel good. :y


Character, yes that's the appalling inefficiency of a steam engine -  a very low single number that makes the pathetic 20%ish that I/C engines manage look impressive.



Ah yes.....but what about the sound, the smell, the visual drama of a steam train. :y

What about sex on the London- Scotland sleeper. ;)

Besides......if Lizzie learns you are running down steam trains she'll be slipping a noose around your neck. ::) ;)

No I will not as nothing can argue that the steam ENGINES (not trains! ::) ::) :P) had their time, but now the electric train must rule as it is so much more advanced, and besides the modern snowflakes would never work on the footplate of a steam loco on a hot summers day, let alone any other time of our British seasons!  I can say I have for a period of time and actually felt what it was like - beautiful, wonderfull, touching history, but very hot, very dirty and dangerous!! :o :o :D :D ;)

Now, shall I mention HS2 - oh dear I just have!! :P :P :-X :-X ;D ;D ;)
« Last Edit: 03 September 2019, 14:38:08 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #25 on: 03 September 2019, 14:39:00 »

Ah....Steam engine not steam train.

I hang my head in shame, Lizzie. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #26 on: 03 September 2019, 14:45:04 »

Ah....Steam engine not steam train.

I hang my head in shame, Lizzie. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

 ;D ;D ;D :-* :-* ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #27 on: 03 September 2019, 15:07:13 »

Love the design of this. Not around for long though.

https://youtu.be/D3bj47TAYiU
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #28 on: 03 September 2019, 16:23:16 »

Love the design of this. Not around for long though.

https://youtu.be/D3bj47TAYiU

Ah, the Deltic, Class 55, of engines that were powered by this 18 cylinder (won't fit an Omega!! ::) ::) :'() beauty are, thank goodness, still with us in preservation 8) 8) :y

Their sound is so unforgettable, radiating what was then, the extreme power of a diesel loco. :-* :-* :-*

The sound of one remaining class of diesel that I know of (diesel enthusiasts will no doubt correct!) the Class 37 comes close to THAT sound, as I have been fortunate enough to here in Ashford as two of them haul one special wagon holding a nuclear waste flask powering through from Dungeness. You can hear the sound right across town, although it is some time since I last heard them :(

Now I must behave;  I really love steam engines more, but................ ;D ;D ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #29 on: 03 September 2019, 16:40:15 »

Love the design of this. Not around for long though.

https://youtu.be/D3bj47TAYiU

Ah, the Deltic, Class 55, of engines that were powered by this 18 cylinder (won't fit an Omega!! ::) ::) :'() beauty are, thank goodness, still with us in preservation 8) 8) :y

Their sound is so unforgettable, radiating what was then, the extreme power of a diesel loco. :-* :-* :-*

The sound of one remaining class of diesel that I know of (diesel enthusiasts will no doubt correct!) the Class 37 comes close to THAT sound, as I have been fortunate enough to here in Ashford as two of them haul one special wagon holding a nuclear waste flask powering through from Dungeness. You can hear the sound right across town, although it is some time since I last heard them :(

Now I must behave;  I really love steam engines more, but................ ;D ;D ;)


Is that 18 or 36 cylinder?.......as the Deltic has 2 pistons sharing each bore. Weird. And it's a 2 stroke. :o
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #30 on: 03 September 2019, 16:47:28 »

Love the design of this. Not around for long though.

https://youtu.be/D3bj47TAYiU

Ah, the Deltic, Class 55, of engines that were powered by this 18 cylinder (won't fit an Omega!! ::) ::) :'() beauty are, thank goodness, still with us in preservation 8) 8) :y

Their sound is so unforgettable, radiating what was then, the extreme power of a diesel loco. :-* :-* :-*

The sound of one remaining class of diesel that I know of (diesel enthusiasts will no doubt correct!) the Class 37 comes close to THAT sound, as I have been fortunate enough to here in Ashford as two of them haul one special wagon holding a nuclear waste flask powering through from Dungeness. You can hear the sound right across town, although it is some time since I last heard them :(

Now I must behave;  I really love steam engines more, but................ ;D ;D ;)


Is that 18 or 36 cylinder?.......as the Deltic has 2 pistons sharing each bore. Weird. And it's a 2 stroke. :o

I have just double checked and my memory is correct: 18 cylinders.  However, I am not a diesel fan so let those who know them backwards on the OOF explain that one! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #31 on: 03 September 2019, 16:52:30 »

Here you go Lizzie......I expect you'll need to wipe away a tear or two. :y :-* :-* :-*

Nostalgia from 1962.

https://youtu.be/jPUy9a3xi4w
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #32 on: 03 September 2019, 17:07:20 »

Here you go Lizzie......I expect you'll need to wipe away a tear or two. :y :-* :-* :-*

Nostalgia from 1962.

https://youtu.be/jPUy9a3xi4w

Thanks Opti! :-* :-* :-* :y

Yes, as I touched on the conditions for the footplate crew were suddenly improved no end with the introduction of those engines. There was one downside though: no more fry ups of egg and bacon on a shovel - what a loss!! :o :o ;D ;D ;)

PS that film proves that even in 1962 producers could ruin a good presentation by allowing damn music to cover what is the beautiful sound of a working machines.  Shame on them! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #33 on: 03 September 2019, 17:56:07 »

Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

With a model 3 long range I'd estimate you would need two 20 minute stops  and one 10-15 minutes stop, this would be using superchargers the OP passed on his drive around. You can cut these times nearly in half once the upgraded supercharger network is rolled out over the next 18-24m and I am yet to see anyone queuing at a tesla charging station. So you're looking at adding an hour to what is a pretty rare usage case. In the main I have found that having an EV has cut down the time I spend refuelling, not increased it. 

As things stand, that would mean stopping at either South Mimms or Bishops Stortford on the Yeovil->Mildenhall leg. Then I'm in trouble because there aint nuffink on the Mildenhall->Waddo leg, and a diversion to Lemington Spa on the Waddo->Fairford leg. And again nuffink on the Fairford->Yeovil leg.

Mainstream ev's have been in existence less than a decade (my personal definition would be that mainstream ev's started with the nissan leaf in 2010). In that time the range has tripled and performance has gone from a joke to rivalling the quickest mainstream ICE cars. *Ever* is a long time, but I think if you give it 10 years more you'll see 300 real world miles and 250kw charging as standard meaning that journey would involve a couple of 5-10minute quick charges. Its also worth noting that the OP clearly hasn't counted the (apparently) many hours spent maintaining his ICE car, which would not be spent on an EV.

Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

Not sure what you mean about maintaining the car. Is the Tesla not going to need Tyres, Windscreen wiper blades, or occasional spare bulbs? And is it really never going to go wrong so not need maintaining? 

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

Why? My golf is already outdated tech and my daily commute is either 110 or 170 miles round trip and I can guarantee I spend less time refuelling my car than anyone with an ICE vehicle doing the same 12000 miles I've covered since March. I get to work and spend 10-15s plugging it in and maybe 5s plugging it in when I get home at night.

With the latest generation of cars, I could save myself that 10-15s at work, at which point id spend 25-30s a week on refuelling. Even going to a petrol station in the dead of night or early morning (my former preferred time) it took me that long to have my credit card details checked by the self service machine, much less pump the diesel.

Why? Because the fuel distribution network is already in place. There are thousands of petrol stations dotted all around the country, and you have to try fairly hard to get into a situation where you risk running out of petrol because of bad planning (ok I've done it twice :dunce:). In most cars you can get enough petrol in to do 300miles+ in 5 minutes.

Sure you can get stuck behind a queue of duffers in a petrol station and have to wait a few minutes to start filling. Once those duffers have electric cars....

Charging cars at work only works because there are currently sufficient stations where you are. Once there are N+1 cars for N charging points it becomes a game of musical chairs. And assuming the electricity will remain 'free' is spurious. Sooner or later you'll have to start paying for it so the credit card transaction time will be the same. AIUI on the road charging already costs 50%-100% more for using 'their' electricity than your typical home supply should be costing you.

My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #34 on: 03 September 2019, 18:02:25 »

My first 3.2 (estate with 70 litre tank, saloon is 65 litres ;))
You mean 75l, obviously.

My record is 74.5l into one to 2nd click of pump.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #35 on: 03 September 2019, 18:09:06 »

I looked into the leccy car option very seriously.  Fortunately, I have a few family members who work in leccy car design and test, so I know reality, not marketing wank.

I was just over the commute threshold (no charging options at work, or even sufficient parking at the time - thus fast charging every night), the car warranty would outlast the battery pack by a factor of 2.

So I bought a much, much cheaper 6yr old Jaaaaaggg, that's faster, a 500+ mile range without trying, more comfortable, and runs on readily available power.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #37 on: 04 September 2019, 10:38:46 »


Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

The physics is known, but what isn't fully developed (and  probably wont be in our lifetime) is the chemistry and material science that supports it. The physics of burning petrol was known in the early part of last century, but we've still moved from a 4.5L Le Mans engine that develops 110bhp to 2L engines that produce over 400bhp in production trim. Or, to give a more recent example; battery chemistry, and consequently energy density has moved forward enough that there's now a company that will pull the old 24kwh Nissan leaf battery and replace it with a 40kwh one that occupies the same physical space. In less than 10 yrs, Nissan has moved its production batteries from 155wh/kg, to 225wh/kg.

I agree that future EVs will have higher capacity batteries, but they wont necessarily be bigger or heavier.



If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

So what you're saying, with your own example, is that a user would have to travel more than 450 miles in a single day before the ICE car shows any time advantage over the EV? That's about 8-9hrs of driving in the UK, or closer to 10-11 if you were to include rush hour hrs, and at no point, other than a 10 minute fuel stop has the driver needed to stop the vehicle to eat, buy a coffee, pee etc. It strikes me that, your scenario doesn't bear much resemblance to the real world.

Quote
My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.

So in the space of one post your position has gone from 'EV commuting above 100 miles is fantasy' to ' [currently available cars] are good for up to 200miles round trip', quite a different position. And again, talking about a commute of over 200 miles is a very specialist use case, which affects a minuscule amount of the population. Doing over 45,000 miles per year (200 miles x 5 days x 45 weeks) I estimate accounts for about 0.05% of drivers in the uk. So consequently, I would argue that currently available EV's, on a range basis meet the commuting needs of about 99.95% of uk users, i.e. You could drive to work and back, with ample spare range and never have to charge away from home.  :y













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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #38 on: 04 September 2019, 12:38:25 »


Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

The physics is known, but what isn't fully developed (and  probably wont be in our lifetime) is the chemistry and material science that supports it. The physics of burning petrol was known in the early part of last century, but we've still moved from a 4.5L Le Mans engine that develops 110bhp to 2L engines that produce over 400bhp in production trim. Or, to give a more recent example; battery chemistry, and consequently energy density has moved forward enough that there's now a company that will pull the old 24kwh Nissan leaf battery and replace it with a 40kwh one that occupies the same physical space. In less than 10 yrs, Nissan has moved its production batteries from 155wh/kg, to 225wh/kg.

I agree that future EVs will have higher capacity batteries, but they wont necessarily be bigger or heavier.

Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

So what you're saying, with your own example, is that a user would have to travel more than 450 miles in a single day before the ICE car shows any time advantage over the EV? That's about 8-9hrs of driving in the UK, or closer to 10-11 if you were to include rush hour hrs, and at no point, other than a 10 minute fuel stop has the driver needed to stop the vehicle to eat, buy a coffee, pee etc. It strikes me that, your scenario doesn't bear much resemblance to the real world.

450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.

You're also assuming that the re-charge point is the same as the driver rest break stop. For me it isn't. I spend all day at the perimeter fence, take a wizz in the bushes if required, and eat my muesli and Tofu burger  ;D from a burger van in the Gen-Pen.  There may be an occasional McDump required, but very-very rarely. None of these places have charging points.

Tonight I'm doing Yeovil->Fairford->Bristol->Fairford->Harwell. None of the places I'm going have on site charging, and that journey isn't possible without a charge somewhere. 

Quote
My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.

So in the space of one post your position has gone from 'EV commuting above 100 miles is fantasy' to ' [currently available cars] are good for up to 200miles round trip', quite a different position. And again, talking about a commute of over 200 miles is a very specialist use case, which affects a minuscule amount of the population. Doing over 45,000 miles per year (200 miles x 5 days x 45 weeks) I estimate accounts for about 0.05% of drivers in the uk. So consequently, I would argue that currently available EV's, on a range basis meet the commuting needs of about 99.95% of uk users, i.e. You could drive to work and back, with ample spare range and never have to charge away from home.  :y

AIUI the figures are that about 80% of journeys are short, and certainly do-able with home charging alone. However, the remaining 20% must therefore be considered 'long' and will require charging somewhere en-route.

100Kw batteries aren't fitted to smaller cars - only the top of the range stuff. They're expensive and heavy. Small cars are typically less than 50Kw, so the range drops from 300+ to 150+, which means the commute drops to less than 75 miles. I was being generous saying 100 miles!  You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2019, 12:40:13 by LC0112G »
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #39 on: 04 September 2019, 12:41:43 »

You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

But Jimmy has a typical eurobox .. and commutes >100miles..
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #40 on: 04 September 2019, 13:31:20 »

You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

But Jimmy has a typical eurobox .. and commutes >100miles..
But you can't compare the fuelling time of an ICE with the act of plugging into a charger, as the actual fuelling time is a lot longer, even if you only ever use a fast charger.

My commute is 25 miles each way, but with no charging facility at work, I would have to charge mine every day in order to guarantee getting home on the second day.

Even the least economical vehicle would last me a week without topping up...

Granted, the saving on cost of electricity goes someway towards offsetting the time cost of charging.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #41 on: 04 September 2019, 13:40:32 »


Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


Says who? There are prototype batteries that exist now which have been shown to deliver over 430wh/kg. Are they within a few percent of the theoretical maximum? Or are you referring to the 255kwh batteries that are already in production. ::)

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/%EF%BB%BFterawatts-solid-state-battery-prototype-achieves-energy-density-of-1122-wh-l/

And yes, I am well aware that prototype and production units are a long way apart, but you assertion that EVs are somehow running close to the theoretical maximum of what a battery can do just doesn't fit with what already exists in the world today, never mind any genuinely new or as-yet-undisclosed innovation, which will come because you have big business investing billions to achieve it.

So, even if we only realise a prototype-to-production shift of a battery that already exists, the 64kwh Kona ev that exists today would become 110kwh, without adding any more weight or volume to the battery pack. That means you would have a small EV, that does well over 400 miles in the real world, and thats just based on what is known to exist today - no leaps in technology required.



450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.


Yes, charging a 90-100kwh ev from flat to full/80% is going to take you about 14hrs, but the only use case where that's an issue is where I empty my 300 mile battery, then get home, and need all the range very early the next day, I think you're down to a tiny percentage of the population where that would present an issue.
 
One thing we can absolutely agree on is that at present, the UK charging infrastructure isn't fit to support mass-use of short range EVs, but no one is expecting it to, in the same way 99.9% of the time no one fills up at motorway services, the need just won't be there.

Taking rapid chargers only (those that are 50kw or above), in the UK there were 300 in 2012, 3400 at the end of 2018, and there 4400 as at today. The network is growing at an increasing rate and there are now more public charge points (fasts + rapids) than there are petrol stations.

100Kw batteries aren't fitted to smaller cars - only the top of the range stuff. They're expensive and heavy. Small cars are typically less than 50Kw, so the range drops from 300+ to 150+, which means the commute drops to less than 75 miles. I was being generous saying 100 miles!  You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

Again, you're not really considering the facts and what's already out there. 60kw+ variants of 'euro boxes' are already here and delivering 250 miles of real world driving, specifically the Kona EV and the Nissan leaf e-plus. The e-golf's replacement is dropping in the new year and will offer 3 variants (broadly) 200, 250 and 300 mile.

My outdated golf is delivering 4.3 miles per kwh as a long term average, so you simply don't need 100kwh packs to hit 300 miles of usable range in a smaller car. I charge at work because its free and its very rare I charge at home (why would I?) meaning my 110 mile commute is handled just fine by my 130 mile(ish) ev. As I've said on here before, I don't drive 'economically' or sit with no air con/heat on or any of that nonsense, I would imagine I could get close to 150 miles in mine, but I'm not that sad.

In reality, a 64kwh car, such as those that already exist would be fine for a commute of 100 miles each way - which almost no one does anyway.

But you can't compare the fuelling time of an ICE with the act of plugging into a charger, as the actual fuelling time is a lot longer, even if you only ever use a fast charger.

My commute is 25 miles each way, but with no charging facility at work, I would have to charge mine every day in order to guarantee getting home on the second day.

Even the least economical vehicle would last me a week without topping up...

Granted, the saving on cost of electricity goes someway towards offsetting the time cost of charging.

Why does it matter how long the activity takes if you aren't actively involved in it?

My refuelling time (ie the time out of my day that I spend on recharging my car) is 10-15s, which would be far less if I charged at home and didn't have to get the charge cable out of the boot. The fact that the car is doing something while I'm at work or asleep is not my concern.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2019, 13:43:57 by jimmy944 »
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Nick W

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #42 on: 04 September 2019, 13:50:37 »

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #43 on: 04 September 2019, 14:19:52 »

You can't use the car whilst it is plugged in ;)

Let's say you get home, the car's on 2% and you suddenly remember that you were meant to collect the other half from EMA/grab some bits from B+Q in order to continue a project*

You either wait or take another car. Which defeats the point somewhat.

* just two possible scenarios.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #44 on: 04 September 2019, 16:11:20 »


Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


Says who? There are prototype batteries that exist now which have been shown to deliver over 430wh/kg. Are they within a few percent of the theoretical maximum? Or are you referring to the 255kwh batteries that are already in production. ::)

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/%EF%BB%BFterawatts-solid-state-battery-prototype-achieves-energy-density-of-1122-wh-l/

And yes, I am well aware that prototype and production units are a long way apart, but you assertion that EVs are somehow running close to the theoretical maximum of what a battery can do just doesn't fit with what already exists in the world today, never mind any genuinely new or as-yet-undisclosed innovation, which will come because you have big business investing billions to achieve it.

So, even if we only realise a prototype-to-production shift of a battery that already exists, the 64kwh Kona ev that exists today would become 110kwh, without adding any more weight or volume to the battery pack. That means you would have a small EV, that does well over 400 miles in the real world, and thats just based on what is known to exist today - no leaps in technology required.

Says Physics. Lithium Ion is 100.00–243.06 Wh/Kg, or 250.00–730.56 Wh/L. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density. Tesla apparently claim 247Wh/kg. So the Tesla figures are at/above the theoretical maximum for LiIon. Ok it's Wikipedia vs and marketing claims, but even ignoring the discrepancy there isn't much room for improvement there.

The batteries in the article are claiming 1,122 Wh/L (432 Wh/kg). Ergo they aren't Lithium Ion but the article doesn't say what they are.  Now if you claim to be able to build a battery out of Plutonium or anti matter, then sure you can do better than LiIon. But until the battery tech is disclosed, this battery should be considered vapourware.

And doubling the Kw rating of the battery simply means it either takes twice as long to charge, or you require twice the charge rate to charge it.


450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.


Yes, charging a 90-100kwh ev from flat to full/80% is going to take you about 14hrs, but the only use case where that's an issue is where I empty my 300 mile battery, then get home, and need all the range very early the next day, I think you're down to a tiny percentage of the population where that would present an issue.
 
One thing we can absolutely agree on is that at present, the UK charging infrastructure isn't fit to support mass-use of short range EVs, but no one is expecting it to, in the same way 99.9% of the time no one fills up at motorway services, the need just won't be there.

Taking rapid chargers only (those that are 50kw or above), in the UK there were 300 in 2012, 3400 at the end of 2018, and there 4400 as at today. The network is growing at an increasing rate and there are now more public charge points (fasts + rapids) than there are petrol stations.

A 50Kw charger would take an hour to put 50% charge into a 100Kw battery, and give you perhaps 150 mile range. That's the limiting factor. Sure higher capacity chargers are possible, but until the 'normal' charging capacity is (about) 5 times the battery capacity, it can't compete with fossil fuels for anything more than 300 miles in a day. That's is my point.   

I commute about 25 miles (round trip) each day, so that's easily in EV territory. However, I also do reasonably regular 300-1000 mile trips for both work and leasure. That isn't viable using EV currently, and I doubt it will be before I'm pushing up the daisies.
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #45 on: 04 September 2019, 16:19:41 »

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.

It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall. 
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Nick W

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #46 on: 04 September 2019, 16:26:30 »

It also requires the chargers to be working, which can be a very real problem.


Those are simple issues that can be solved by the application of lots of money. Who provides that cash is another question.


As are the charging rates and life of batteries, and we are well into diminishing returns for any improvements.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #47 on: 04 September 2019, 17:05:52 »

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.

It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall.

best get a gun. :)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #48 on: 04 September 2019, 18:08:22 »


Says Physics. Lithium Ion is 100.00–243.06 Wh/Kg, or 250.00–730.56 Wh/L. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density. Tesla apparently claim 247Wh/kg. So the Tesla figures are at/above the theoretical maximum for LiIon. Ok it's Wikipedia vs and marketing claims, but even ignoring the discrepancy there isn't much room for improvement there.

The batteries in the article are claiming 1,122 Wh/L (432 Wh/kg). Ergo they aren't Lithium Ion but the article doesn't say what they are.  Now if you claim to be able to build a battery out of Plutonium or anti matter, then sure you can do better than LiIon. But until the battery tech is disclosed, this battery should be considered vapourware.

Its hard to have a discussion involving hard facts/figures if you aren't specific, you talked about batteries in general, not Li Ion, I'm not arguing that we are at/close to the limit of the wh/kg on production LiIon batteries, but that isn't the only technology out there.  Also, vapourware is hardly a fair term, it isn't theoretical or a concept, its capacity has been independently verified.


And doubling the Kw rating of the battery simply means it either takes twice as long to charge, or you require twice the charge rate to charge it.

A 50Kw charger would take an hour to put 50% charge into a 100Kw battery, and give you perhaps 150 mile range. That's the limiting factor. Sure higher capacity chargers are possible, but until the 'normal' charging capacity is (about) 5 times the battery capacity, it can't compete with fossil fuels for anything more than 300 miles in a day. That's is my point. 

Rapid charging technology is fast approaching or already at that point, as I mentioned before, Tesla are doing the upgrade to 250kw chargers now with an aim of a full roll-out over the next 24m and Ionity have already begun the deployment of 350kw chargers in the UK, with 400 going in over the next 15 months. And as I pointed out 50kw gets you over 200 miles in my eurobox  :y.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/ionity-expand-ev-fast-charger-network-extra-services

Once this kind of tech is rolled out, you'll be seeing 100-150 miles being added in 5-10 minutes. Sure, that's time added to 20% of journeys, but as now, 'fill up' time is basically reduced to nil over the remaining 80% of journeys meaning you spend less time charging overall.



It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall. 

So you assume that at some point in the future, we'll all have EV's, but somehow rapid charging technology and battery capacity will have gone backwards from whats available today? riiight  ::)
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #49 on: 04 September 2019, 21:43:50 »

Its hard to have a discussion involving hard facts/figures if you aren't specific, you talked about batteries in general, not Li Ion, I'm not arguing that we are at/close to the limit of the wh/kg on production LiIon batteries, but that isn't the only technology out there.  Also, vapourware is hardly a fair term, it isn't theoretical or a concept, its capacity has been independently verified.

Granted I wasn't specific about LiIon, but that's what is going to be used for the near future at least (next 5 years), and it's pointless speculating about possible future alternatives till someone actually gets close to marketing it. However, since nuclear powered cars were suggested in the 1950's I'll continue to doubt such tech till it actually makes it to market. There is a suggestion that it's based on Silicon, which has been used before but suffers from longevity problems.

So you assume that at some point in the future, we'll all have EV's, but somehow rapid charging technology and battery capacity will have gone backwards from whats available today? riiight  ::)

No, but once a defacto-standard has been set it's often very difficult to displace it. Take VHS cassettes - inferior to Betamax, but still became a standard, and wasn't displaced till DVD's came out. 50Kw 'rapid chargers' seem to be becoming the same de-facto standard.

Someone also has to pay for the infrastructure. A few 50kW chargers at a single location isn't too difficult. A dozen or more 250-500KW chargers. Hmmm.

There is also little incentive for a charging station to offer rapid charging. If you're 'stuck' there for 30+ minutes then you're very likely to buy a coffee or even have meal. If you're in and out in 10 minutes you won't.  They'll sell you the same amount of leccie regardless of how long it takes. Any 'extras' are extra profit. Given that many petrol stations have already turned into mini-marts where people do a months worth of shopping whilst I'm trying to pay for 70L of unleaded, what makes you think the charging stations want to allow you out quicker?

Anyway - Got my three B-2's at Fairford, plus a bonus C-5M. Currently at the Bristol ABS meet - billy no-mates. M4 is shut and all the roads around the M5/M5/A38 area are jammed solid so no-one else has made it. Either that or they forgot to charge their EV's ;D
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #50 on: 05 September 2019, 13:17:32 »

Finally found out how I can charge an EV at work, I spent ages trawling our Transport/Parking/Car intranet pages finding nothing.

Was then told I need go onto our eMeeting room booking site and select 'Electric Car Charging'. Of course, what a logical place for it.  ;D

Still very tempted if the 3.2 ever blows up, but then again a Jag XJ (308) Supercharged V8 also has an appeal, (seeing as they go for £2-3k on eBay) as I suspect it would be my only chance to own and run a V8.  :)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #51 on: 05 September 2019, 13:38:27 »

You cry about the Omegas thirst ;D

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind  :'(
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #52 on: 05 September 2019, 13:51:33 »

You cry about the Omegas thirst ;D

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind  :'(


.......every cloud. ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #53 on: 05 September 2019, 14:24:54 »

You cry about the Omegas thirst ;D

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind  :'(


.......every cloud. ;)
Well, 300+ bhp and 500+ lb/ft of torque isn't unreasonable...
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #54 on: 05 September 2019, 18:01:19 »

I have to concur with LC that the battery tech is nowhere near viable for modern society outside of the big cities.

Maybe a better batt tech will come along, but despite the occasional claim, there is nothing on the horizon (ie, patented, and being developed to be manufactured).  The Lithium tech - LiO, LiPo, LiFE - remain the current kings, despite their volativity and mediocre durability.  Nothing else looks like it'll be manufacturable in the next 15yrs, minimum.
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aaronjb

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #55 on: 06 September 2019, 09:42:54 »

I have to concur with LC that the battery tech is nowhere near viable for modern society outside of the big cities.

Fortunately, in 20 years, we'll have finished building over everything green and the UK will be one giant city (like Singapore, but bigger) ;D

We'll all also tele-commute full time.




These may all be predictions from 20 years ago, too, and look how that worked out.
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