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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #30 on: 03 September 2019, 16:47:28 »

Love the design of this. Not around for long though.

https://youtu.be/D3bj47TAYiU

Ah, the Deltic, Class 55, of engines that were powered by this 18 cylinder (won't fit an Omega!! ::) ::) :'() beauty are, thank goodness, still with us in preservation 8) 8) :y

Their sound is so unforgettable, radiating what was then, the extreme power of a diesel loco. :-* :-* :-*

The sound of one remaining class of diesel that I know of (diesel enthusiasts will no doubt correct!) the Class 37 comes close to THAT sound, as I have been fortunate enough to here in Ashford as two of them haul one special wagon holding a nuclear waste flask powering through from Dungeness. You can hear the sound right across town, although it is some time since I last heard them :(

Now I must behave;  I really love steam engines more, but................ ;D ;D ;)


Is that 18 or 36 cylinder?.......as the Deltic has 2 pistons sharing each bore. Weird. And it's a 2 stroke. :o

I have just double checked and my memory is correct: 18 cylinders.  However, I am not a diesel fan so let those who know them backwards on the OOF explain that one! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #31 on: 03 September 2019, 16:52:30 »

Here you go Lizzie......I expect you'll need to wipe away a tear or two. :y :-* :-* :-*

Nostalgia from 1962.

https://youtu.be/jPUy9a3xi4w
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #32 on: 03 September 2019, 17:07:20 »

Here you go Lizzie......I expect you'll need to wipe away a tear or two. :y :-* :-* :-*

Nostalgia from 1962.

https://youtu.be/jPUy9a3xi4w

Thanks Opti! :-* :-* :-* :y

Yes, as I touched on the conditions for the footplate crew were suddenly improved no end with the introduction of those engines. There was one downside though: no more fry ups of egg and bacon on a shovel - what a loss!! :o :o ;D ;D ;)

PS that film proves that even in 1962 producers could ruin a good presentation by allowing damn music to cover what is the beautiful sound of a working machines.  Shame on them! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #33 on: 03 September 2019, 17:56:07 »

Point is, how is this sort of trip ever going to be possible with battery powered cars? It's going to need at least one, probably 2 full charges en-route. For some reason the RAF/USAF haven't yet fitted fast chargers around the perimeter fences of their airfields, so I'd have to hunt down the nearest one, possibly wait 20-30 minutes for it to become free, then 20-30 minutes to 'fill up'.

With a model 3 long range I'd estimate you would need two 20 minute stops  and one 10-15 minutes stop, this would be using superchargers the OP passed on his drive around. You can cut these times nearly in half once the upgraded supercharger network is rolled out over the next 18-24m and I am yet to see anyone queuing at a tesla charging station. So you're looking at adding an hour to what is a pretty rare usage case. In the main I have found that having an EV has cut down the time I spend refuelling, not increased it. 

As things stand, that would mean stopping at either South Mimms or Bishops Stortford on the Yeovil->Mildenhall leg. Then I'm in trouble because there aint nuffink on the Mildenhall->Waddo leg, and a diversion to Lemington Spa on the Waddo->Fairford leg. And again nuffink on the Fairford->Yeovil leg.

Mainstream ev's have been in existence less than a decade (my personal definition would be that mainstream ev's started with the nissan leaf in 2010). In that time the range has tripled and performance has gone from a joke to rivalling the quickest mainstream ICE cars. *Ever* is a long time, but I think if you give it 10 years more you'll see 300 real world miles and 250kw charging as standard meaning that journey would involve a couple of 5-10minute quick charges. Its also worth noting that the OP clearly hasn't counted the (apparently) many hours spent maintaining his ICE car, which would not be spent on an EV.

Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

Not sure what you mean about maintaining the car. Is the Tesla not going to need Tyres, Windscreen wiper blades, or occasional spare bulbs? And is it really never going to go wrong so not need maintaining? 

Hybrids I can see working. Don't have to be Petrol or Diesel - LPG or at a push Hydrogen is entirely possible although there is virtually zero public distribution currently. Pure battery is pure fantasy except for sub 100 mile round trip commuting.

Why? My golf is already outdated tech and my daily commute is either 110 or 170 miles round trip and I can guarantee I spend less time refuelling my car than anyone with an ICE vehicle doing the same 12000 miles I've covered since March. I get to work and spend 10-15s plugging it in and maybe 5s plugging it in when I get home at night.

With the latest generation of cars, I could save myself that 10-15s at work, at which point id spend 25-30s a week on refuelling. Even going to a petrol station in the dead of night or early morning (my former preferred time) it took me that long to have my credit card details checked by the self service machine, much less pump the diesel.

Why? Because the fuel distribution network is already in place. There are thousands of petrol stations dotted all around the country, and you have to try fairly hard to get into a situation where you risk running out of petrol because of bad planning (ok I've done it twice :dunce:). In most cars you can get enough petrol in to do 300miles+ in 5 minutes.

Sure you can get stuck behind a queue of duffers in a petrol station and have to wait a few minutes to start filling. Once those duffers have electric cars....

Charging cars at work only works because there are currently sufficient stations where you are. Once there are N+1 cars for N charging points it becomes a game of musical chairs. And assuming the electricity will remain 'free' is spurious. Sooner or later you'll have to start paying for it so the credit card transaction time will be the same. AIUI on the road charging already costs 50%-100% more for using 'their' electricity than your typical home supply should be costing you.

My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #34 on: 03 September 2019, 18:02:25 »

My first 3.2 (estate with 70 litre tank, saloon is 65 litres ;))
You mean 75l, obviously.

My record is 74.5l into one to 2nd click of pump.
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TheBoy

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #35 on: 03 September 2019, 18:09:06 »

I looked into the leccy car option very seriously.  Fortunately, I have a few family members who work in leccy car design and test, so I know reality, not marketing wank.

I was just over the commute threshold (no charging options at work, or even sufficient parking at the time - thus fast charging every night), the car warranty would outlast the battery pack by a factor of 2.

So I bought a much, much cheaper 6yr old Jaaaaaggg, that's faster, a 500+ mile range without trying, more comfortable, and runs on readily available power.
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Viral_Jim

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #37 on: 04 September 2019, 10:38:46 »


Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

The physics is known, but what isn't fully developed (and  probably wont be in our lifetime) is the chemistry and material science that supports it. The physics of burning petrol was known in the early part of last century, but we've still moved from a 4.5L Le Mans engine that develops 110bhp to 2L engines that produce over 400bhp in production trim. Or, to give a more recent example; battery chemistry, and consequently energy density has moved forward enough that there's now a company that will pull the old 24kwh Nissan leaf battery and replace it with a 40kwh one that occupies the same physical space. In less than 10 yrs, Nissan has moved its production batteries from 155wh/kg, to 225wh/kg.

I agree that future EVs will have higher capacity batteries, but they wont necessarily be bigger or heavier.



If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

So what you're saying, with your own example, is that a user would have to travel more than 450 miles in a single day before the ICE car shows any time advantage over the EV? That's about 8-9hrs of driving in the UK, or closer to 10-11 if you were to include rush hour hrs, and at no point, other than a 10 minute fuel stop has the driver needed to stop the vehicle to eat, buy a coffee, pee etc. It strikes me that, your scenario doesn't bear much resemblance to the real world.

Quote
My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.

So in the space of one post your position has gone from 'EV commuting above 100 miles is fantasy' to ' [currently available cars] are good for up to 200miles round trip', quite a different position. And again, talking about a commute of over 200 miles is a very specialist use case, which affects a minuscule amount of the population. Doing over 45,000 miles per year (200 miles x 5 days x 45 weeks) I estimate accounts for about 0.05% of drivers in the uk. So consequently, I would argue that currently available EV's, on a range basis meet the commuting needs of about 99.95% of uk users, i.e. You could drive to work and back, with ample spare range and never have to charge away from home.  :y













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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #38 on: 04 September 2019, 12:38:25 »


Disagree. Battery physics is known. 300mile range just means either bigger batteries or more efficient cars and driving styles. 250kw charging means an awful lot of heat. You can't really use the full battery capacity either. Running below 10% is asking for trouble, and getting from 75% to 100% won't be done at 250Kw. If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

The physics is known, but what isn't fully developed (and  probably wont be in our lifetime) is the chemistry and material science that supports it. The physics of burning petrol was known in the early part of last century, but we've still moved from a 4.5L Le Mans engine that develops 110bhp to 2L engines that produce over 400bhp in production trim. Or, to give a more recent example; battery chemistry, and consequently energy density has moved forward enough that there's now a company that will pull the old 24kwh Nissan leaf battery and replace it with a 40kwh one that occupies the same physical space. In less than 10 yrs, Nissan has moved its production batteries from 155wh/kg, to 225wh/kg.

I agree that future EVs will have higher capacity batteries, but they wont necessarily be bigger or heavier.

Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


If the battery is 100Kw then a 10 minute charge from a 250Kw source is going to put at best 42% charge in it - which probably equates to what 150 miles? I can get another 300 miles in less time from petrol and probably 600 miles with a eurobox Diesel. 

So what you're saying, with your own example, is that a user would have to travel more than 450 miles in a single day before the ICE car shows any time advantage over the EV? That's about 8-9hrs of driving in the UK, or closer to 10-11 if you were to include rush hour hrs, and at no point, other than a 10 minute fuel stop has the driver needed to stop the vehicle to eat, buy a coffee, pee etc. It strikes me that, your scenario doesn't bear much resemblance to the real world.

450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.

You're also assuming that the re-charge point is the same as the driver rest break stop. For me it isn't. I spend all day at the perimeter fence, take a wizz in the bushes if required, and eat my muesli and Tofu burger  ;D from a burger van in the Gen-Pen.  There may be an occasional McDump required, but very-very rarely. None of these places have charging points.

Tonight I'm doing Yeovil->Fairford->Bristol->Fairford->Harwell. None of the places I'm going have on site charging, and that journey isn't possible without a charge somewhere. 

Quote
My point about 100 mile commute was that in order to charge only at home, using your own 'electricity', on your own cheap tariff, your round trip distance probably can't exceed about 75% of the battery capacity. So a 300 mile Tesla would be Ok up to 100 miles each way. More than that, you'll probably want to top up somewhere en-route, or at work, which won't remain free for very long.

So in the space of one post your position has gone from 'EV commuting above 100 miles is fantasy' to ' [currently available cars] are good for up to 200miles round trip', quite a different position. And again, talking about a commute of over 200 miles is a very specialist use case, which affects a minuscule amount of the population. Doing over 45,000 miles per year (200 miles x 5 days x 45 weeks) I estimate accounts for about 0.05% of drivers in the uk. So consequently, I would argue that currently available EV's, on a range basis meet the commuting needs of about 99.95% of uk users, i.e. You could drive to work and back, with ample spare range and never have to charge away from home.  :y

AIUI the figures are that about 80% of journeys are short, and certainly do-able with home charging alone. However, the remaining 20% must therefore be considered 'long' and will require charging somewhere en-route.

100Kw batteries aren't fitted to smaller cars - only the top of the range stuff. They're expensive and heavy. Small cars are typically less than 50Kw, so the range drops from 300+ to 150+, which means the commute drops to less than 75 miles. I was being generous saying 100 miles!  You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2019, 12:40:13 by LC0112G »
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aaronjb

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #39 on: 04 September 2019, 12:41:43 »

You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

But Jimmy has a typical eurobox .. and commutes >100miles..
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #40 on: 04 September 2019, 13:31:20 »

You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

But Jimmy has a typical eurobox .. and commutes >100miles..
But you can't compare the fuelling time of an ICE with the act of plugging into a charger, as the actual fuelling time is a lot longer, even if you only ever use a fast charger.

My commute is 25 miles each way, but with no charging facility at work, I would have to charge mine every day in order to guarantee getting home on the second day.

Even the least economical vehicle would last me a week without topping up...

Granted, the saving on cost of electricity goes someway towards offsetting the time cost of charging.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #41 on: 04 September 2019, 13:40:32 »


Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


Says who? There are prototype batteries that exist now which have been shown to deliver over 430wh/kg. Are they within a few percent of the theoretical maximum? Or are you referring to the 255kwh batteries that are already in production. ::)

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/%EF%BB%BFterawatts-solid-state-battery-prototype-achieves-energy-density-of-1122-wh-l/

And yes, I am well aware that prototype and production units are a long way apart, but you assertion that EVs are somehow running close to the theoretical maximum of what a battery can do just doesn't fit with what already exists in the world today, never mind any genuinely new or as-yet-undisclosed innovation, which will come because you have big business investing billions to achieve it.

So, even if we only realise a prototype-to-production shift of a battery that already exists, the 64kwh Kona ev that exists today would become 110kwh, without adding any more weight or volume to the battery pack. That means you would have a small EV, that does well over 400 miles in the real world, and thats just based on what is known to exist today - no leaps in technology required.



450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.


Yes, charging a 90-100kwh ev from flat to full/80% is going to take you about 14hrs, but the only use case where that's an issue is where I empty my 300 mile battery, then get home, and need all the range very early the next day, I think you're down to a tiny percentage of the population where that would present an issue.
 
One thing we can absolutely agree on is that at present, the UK charging infrastructure isn't fit to support mass-use of short range EVs, but no one is expecting it to, in the same way 99.9% of the time no one fills up at motorway services, the need just won't be there.

Taking rapid chargers only (those that are 50kw or above), in the UK there were 300 in 2012, 3400 at the end of 2018, and there 4400 as at today. The network is growing at an increasing rate and there are now more public charge points (fasts + rapids) than there are petrol stations.

100Kw batteries aren't fitted to smaller cars - only the top of the range stuff. They're expensive and heavy. Small cars are typically less than 50Kw, so the range drops from 300+ to 150+, which means the commute drops to less than 75 miles. I was being generous saying 100 miles!  You're picking the best bits from a large expensive car (high battery capacity) and assuming they'll apply to a typical electric eurobox. It won't.

Again, you're not really considering the facts and what's already out there. 60kw+ variants of 'euro boxes' are already here and delivering 250 miles of real world driving, specifically the Kona EV and the Nissan leaf e-plus. The e-golf's replacement is dropping in the new year and will offer 3 variants (broadly) 200, 250 and 300 mile.

My outdated golf is delivering 4.3 miles per kwh as a long term average, so you simply don't need 100kwh packs to hit 300 miles of usable range in a smaller car. I charge at work because its free and its very rare I charge at home (why would I?) meaning my 110 mile commute is handled just fine by my 130 mile(ish) ev. As I've said on here before, I don't drive 'economically' or sit with no air con/heat on or any of that nonsense, I would imagine I could get close to 150 miles in mine, but I'm not that sad.

In reality, a 64kwh car, such as those that already exist would be fine for a commute of 100 miles each way - which almost no one does anyway.

But you can't compare the fuelling time of an ICE with the act of plugging into a charger, as the actual fuelling time is a lot longer, even if you only ever use a fast charger.

My commute is 25 miles each way, but with no charging facility at work, I would have to charge mine every day in order to guarantee getting home on the second day.

Even the least economical vehicle would last me a week without topping up...

Granted, the saving on cost of electricity goes someway towards offsetting the time cost of charging.

Why does it matter how long the activity takes if you aren't actively involved in it?

My refuelling time (ie the time out of my day that I spend on recharging my car) is 10-15s, which would be far less if I charged at home and didn't have to get the charge cable out of the boot. The fact that the car is doing something while I'm at work or asleep is not my concern.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2019, 13:43:57 by jimmy944 »
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Nick W

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #42 on: 04 September 2019, 13:50:37 »

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.
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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #43 on: 04 September 2019, 14:19:52 »

You can't use the car whilst it is plugged in ;)

Let's say you get home, the car's on 2% and you suddenly remember that you were meant to collect the other half from EMA/grab some bits from B+Q in order to continue a project*

You either wait or take another car. Which defeats the point somewhat.

* just two possible scenarios.
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LC0112G

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Re: No milk float this
« Reply #44 on: 04 September 2019, 16:11:20 »


Disagree. We're past the point of getting relatively 'easy' 25%-50% improvements in the battery tech. We're in the ever decreasing improvement stage within a few percent of the theoretical maximum. The main driver has been mobile phones, where better battieries and lower power electronics have countered the drain caused by bloatware apps.


Says who? There are prototype batteries that exist now which have been shown to deliver over 430wh/kg. Are they within a few percent of the theoretical maximum? Or are you referring to the 255kwh batteries that are already in production. ::)

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/%EF%BB%BFterawatts-solid-state-battery-prototype-achieves-energy-density-of-1122-wh-l/

And yes, I am well aware that prototype and production units are a long way apart, but you assertion that EVs are somehow running close to the theoretical maximum of what a battery can do just doesn't fit with what already exists in the world today, never mind any genuinely new or as-yet-undisclosed innovation, which will come because you have big business investing billions to achieve it.

So, even if we only realise a prototype-to-production shift of a battery that already exists, the 64kwh Kona ev that exists today would become 110kwh, without adding any more weight or volume to the battery pack. That means you would have a small EV, that does well over 400 miles in the real world, and thats just based on what is known to exist today - no leaps in technology required.

Says Physics. Lithium Ion is 100.00–243.06 Wh/Kg, or 250.00–730.56 Wh/L. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density. Tesla apparently claim 247Wh/kg. So the Tesla figures are at/above the theoretical maximum for LiIon. Ok it's Wikipedia vs and marketing claims, but even ignoring the discrepancy there isn't much room for improvement there.

The batteries in the article are claiming 1,122 Wh/L (432 Wh/kg). Ergo they aren't Lithium Ion but the article doesn't say what they are.  Now if you claim to be able to build a battery out of Plutonium or anti matter, then sure you can do better than LiIon. But until the battery tech is disclosed, this battery should be considered vapourware.

And doubling the Kw rating of the battery simply means it either takes twice as long to charge, or you require twice the charge rate to charge it.


450 miles if you start fully charged and with a 10 minute charge may be doable, but you've ended up with a very flat battery. You can't then fast charge it at home - a typical single phase home electric supply is limited to 7.5Kw, so it'll take in excess of 10 hours to get back to 75% charge (assuming you don't want to use any other high power leccie at home - kettle, cooker, toaster etc). 100% charge probably 14 hours. You could upgrade your supply to 3 phase, which could cut the charging times by one third, but that's an extra cost.


Yes, charging a 90-100kwh ev from flat to full/80% is going to take you about 14hrs, but the only use case where that's an issue is where I empty my 300 mile battery, then get home, and need all the range very early the next day, I think you're down to a tiny percentage of the population where that would present an issue.
 
One thing we can absolutely agree on is that at present, the UK charging infrastructure isn't fit to support mass-use of short range EVs, but no one is expecting it to, in the same way 99.9% of the time no one fills up at motorway services, the need just won't be there.

Taking rapid chargers only (those that are 50kw or above), in the UK there were 300 in 2012, 3400 at the end of 2018, and there 4400 as at today. The network is growing at an increasing rate and there are now more public charge points (fasts + rapids) than there are petrol stations.

A 50Kw charger would take an hour to put 50% charge into a 100Kw battery, and give you perhaps 150 mile range. That's the limiting factor. Sure higher capacity chargers are possible, but until the 'normal' charging capacity is (about) 5 times the battery capacity, it can't compete with fossil fuels for anything more than 300 miles in a day. That's is my point.   

I commute about 25 miles (round trip) each day, so that's easily in EV territory. However, I also do reasonably regular 300-1000 mile trips for both work and leasure. That isn't viable using EV currently, and I doubt it will be before I'm pushing up the daisies.
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