Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LC0112G]

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.

It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall. 

[Nick W]

It also requires the chargers to be working, which can be a very real problem.


Those are simple issues that can be solved by the application of lots of money. Who provides that cash is another question.


As are the charging rates and life of batteries, and we are well into diminishing returns for any improvements.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Just one small point:
you need to compare the number of chargers to petrol pumps, not stations. Which is a significant difference.


But as mentioned before, using an EV effectively requires small changes in how it's used and fueled with the recognition that it's poor at certain uses.

It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall.

best get a gun.

[Viral_Jim]

Says Physics. Lithium Ion is 100.00–243.06 Wh/Kg, or 250.00–730.56 Wh/L. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density. Tesla apparently claim 247Wh/kg. So the Tesla figures are at/above the theoretical maximum for LiIon. Ok it's Wikipedia vs and marketing claims, but even ignoring the discrepancy there isn't much room for improvement there.

The batteries in the article are claiming 1,122 Wh/L (432 Wh/kg). Ergo they aren't Lithium Ion but the article doesn't say what they are.  Now if you claim to be able to build a battery out of Plutonium or anti matter, then sure you can do better than LiIon. But until the battery tech is disclosed, this battery should be considered vapourware.

Its hard to have a discussion involving hard facts/figures if you aren't specific, you talked about batteries in general, not Li Ion, I'm not arguing that we are at/close to the limit of the wh/kg on production LiIon batteries, but that isn't the only technology out there.  Also, vapourware is hardly a fair term, it isn't theoretical or a concept, its capacity has been independently verified.

And doubling the Kw rating of the battery simply means it either takes twice as long to charge, or you require twice the charge rate to charge it.

A 50Kw charger would take an hour to put 50% charge into a 100Kw battery, and give you perhaps 150 mile range. That's the limiting factor. Sure higher capacity chargers are possible, but until the 'normal' charging capacity is (about) 5 times the battery capacity, it can't compete with fossil fuels for anything more than 300 miles in a day. That's is my point. 

Rapid charging technology is fast approaching or already at that point, as I mentioned before, Tesla are doing the upgrade to 250kw chargers now with an aim of a full roll-out over the next 24m and Ionity have already begun the deployment of 350kw chargers in the UK, with 400 going in over the next 15 months. And as I pointed out 50kw gets you over 200 miles in my eurobox  .

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/ionity-expand-ev-fast-charger-network-extra-services

Once this kind of tech is rolled out, you'll be seeing 100-150 miles being added in 5-10 minutes. Sure, that's time added to 20% of journeys, but as now, 'fill up' time is basically reduced to nil over the remaining 80% of journeys meaning you spend less time charging overall.

It's worse than that. If it takes 10 times longer to charge the EV (assuming a 50Kw charger and 50Kw battery to make the maths easy) you're likely to need 10 times the number of electric pumps as petrol pumps. If 20% of journeys involve charging away from home or work, then that comes down to double the number of electric pumps to the current petrol pumps.

Gonna be some pretty horrific queues at the EV charging stations on a Bank holiday weekend down the M5/A303 into Cornwall. 

So you assume that at some point in the future, we'll all have EV's, but somehow rapid charging technology and battery capacity will have gone backwards from whats available today? riiight 

[LC0112G]

Its hard to have a discussion involving hard facts/figures if you aren't specific, you talked about batteries in general, not Li Ion, I'm not arguing that we are at/close to the limit of the wh/kg on production LiIon batteries, but that isn't the only technology out there.  Also, vapourware is hardly a fair term, it isn't theoretical or a concept, its capacity has been independently verified.

Granted I wasn't specific about LiIon, but that's what is going to be used for the near future at least (next 5 years), and it's pointless speculating about possible future alternatives till someone actually gets close to marketing it. However, since nuclear powered cars were suggested in the 1950's I'll continue to doubt such tech till it actually makes it to market. There is a suggestion that it's based on Silicon, which has been used before but suffers from longevity problems.

So you assume that at some point in the future, we'll all have EV's, but somehow rapid charging technology and battery capacity will have gone backwards from whats available today? riiight 

No, but once a defacto-standard has been set it's often very difficult to displace it. Take VHS cassettes - inferior to Betamax, but still became a standard, and wasn't displaced till DVD's came out. 50Kw 'rapid chargers' seem to be becoming the same de-facto standard.

Someone also has to pay for the infrastructure. A few 50kW chargers at a single location isn't too difficult. A dozen or more 250-500KW chargers. Hmmm.

There is also little incentive for a charging station to offer rapid charging. If you're 'stuck' there for 30+ minutes then you're very likely to buy a coffee or even have meal. If you're in and out in 10 minutes you won't.  They'll sell you the same amount of leccie regardless of how long it takes. Any 'extras' are extra profit. Given that many petrol stations have already turned into mini-marts where people do a months worth of shopping whilst I'm trying to pay for 70L of unleaded, what makes you think the charging stations want to allow you out quicker?

Anyway - Got my three B-2's at Fairford, plus a bonus C-5M. Currently at the Bristol ABS meet - billy no-mates. M4 is shut and all the roads around the M5/M5/A38 area are jammed solid so no-one else has made it. Either that or they forgot to charge their EV's

[tunnie]

Finally found out how I can charge an EV at work, I spent ages trawling our Transport/Parking/Car intranet pages finding nothing.

Was then told I need go onto our eMeeting room booking site and select 'Electric Car Charging'. Of course, what a logical place for it. 

Still very tempted if the 3.2 ever blows up, but then again a Jag XJ (308) Supercharged V8 also has an appeal, (seeing as they go for £2-3k on eBay) as I suspect it would be my only chance to own and run a V8. 

[Doctor Gollum]

You cry about the Omegas thirst

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

You cry about the Omegas thirst

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind 

.......every cloud.

[Doctor Gollum]

You cry about the Omegas thirst

But you are right, there's a limited opportunity left to own/run more interesting cars... V12s are almost extinct, as are diesel V8s and petrol V8s aren't too far behind 

.......every cloud.

Well, 300+ bhp and 500+ lb/ft of torque isn't unreasonable...

[TheBoy]

I have to concur with LC that the battery tech is nowhere near viable for modern society outside of the big cities.

Maybe a better batt tech will come along, but despite the occasional claim, there is nothing on the horizon (ie, patented, and being developed to be manufactured).  The Lithium tech - LiO, LiPo, LiFE - remain the current kings, despite their volativity and mediocre durability.  Nothing else looks like it'll be manufacturable in the next 15yrs, minimum.

[aaronjb]

I have to concur with LC that the battery tech is nowhere near viable for modern society outside of the big cities.

Fortunately, in 20 years, we'll have finished building over everything green and the UK will be one giant city (like Singapore, but bigger)

We'll all also tele-commute full time.




These may all be predictions from 20 years ago, too, and look how that worked out.