Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tunnie]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

[Nick W]

I've a friend who does a similar journey(Higham to the O2), where he can charge the car, and reckons that the cost difference between a paid-for diesel V40 and a nearly new BMW I3 would pay the finance fees. As he's got a PHD in maths, I'm not going to argue with him   There are other financial advantages, as he then goes onto Pall Mall and the car is exempt from the congestion charge if he needs it. Then there's the other advantages of an EV, the smooth silent acceleration gives a big car feel to a small car. Personally, I'd buy one of the more ordinary hatchback full EVs, as the I3 has typical BMW suspension - it's rock hard and uncomfortable

[Sir Tigger KC]

I reckon a lot of people are going to get stung with second hand milk floats, when they realise too late that they've bought one with a knackered battery. 

A new Leaf battery is about 5 grand!   

[tunnie]

Reviews suggest they are lasting well with battery life, with ~50k mile examples still 90% battery life left.

Few London can companies ran them to 150k, no problems.

[tunnie]

I've a friend who does a similar journey(Higham to the O2), where he can charge the car, and reckons that the cost difference between a paid-for diesel V40 and a nearly new BMW I3 would pay the finance fees. As he's got a PHD in maths, I'm not going to argue with him   There are other financial advantages, as he then goes onto Pall Mall and the car is exempt from the congestion charge if he needs it. Then there's the other advantages of an EV, the smooth silent acceleration gives a big car feel to a small car. Personally, I'd buy one of the more ordinary hatchback full EVs, as the I3 has typical BMW suspension - it's rock hard and uncomfortable

Leaf also looks more normal, used prices are very good. Even at Nissan dealers used.

[Sir Tigger KC]

Yes your probably OK buying one from a franchised dealer, but privately or back street car lot?   

No thanks! 

[tunnie]

I’d buy one from Nissan, as per link above. 

[aaronjb]

Jimmy seems to enjoy his eGolf

And by 'enjoy' I suspect I mean, it does the job it's designed for - takes him to work and back for free*


(*Free charging points where he works, obviously it costs per month..)

[tunnie]

Jimmy seems to enjoy his eGolf

And by 'enjoy' I suspect I mean, it does the job it's designed for - takes him to work and back for free*


(*Free charging points where he works, obviously it costs per month..)

It's free here currently, although they reserve the right to change this. No doubt when demand outweighs the cost limit the company set, I could easily see in a few years they would charge, but on a very low rate even when introduced.

Likewise it would do the job, not exactly be exciting though.

On average I probably fill up twice a month in fuel, so £140 a month could be saved in fuel, throw in Zero road tax and it's £165 a month less.

Of course there is depreciation, but that applies to any replacement car.   

[aaronjb]

There is a compelling argument for a commuter car - if my commute wasn't ~100 miles and/or there was a charging point at work (there are zero charging points at work - heck, there isn't even a guaranteed parking spot - or any charging points in the town the office is in), I might consider one..

[tunnie]

There is a compelling argument for a commuter car - if my commute wasn't ~100 miles and/or there was a charging point at work (there are zero charging points at work - heck, there isn't even a guaranteed parking spot - or any charging points in the town the office is in), I might consider one..

I am rather spoilt for this, I zero'd my trip other day. It's 60 miles from office, via car share buddy, home, then do a repeat on way back to office.

So even a 'low spec' 24Kwh Leaf would do the job. (I'd go for Technica trim though)

[Nick W]

The MG ZS EV would be high on my list if I was going to buy a new commuter car. Although with no off-street parking, charging it is a problem


But I've mentioned before, if I was going to do a lot of miles going to work(again) I'd would be doing it in a >£500 car.
If I needed one tomorrow, I'd give my mate the £100 that the Rover 216 tourer I've just repaired the sills on owes him.


£200 car by the time it's MOTd and serviced, 40+mpg and very low cost to run - fix it if it breaks. Plus it's a reasonably sized estate so it's useful for carrying stuff.

[Viral_Jim]

There is a compelling argument for a commuter car - if my commute wasn't ~100 miles and/or there was a charging point at work (there are zero charging points at work - heck, there isn't even a guaranteed parking spot - or any charging points in the town the office is in), I might consider one..

I am rather spoilt for this, I zero'd my trip other day. It's 60 miles from office, via car share buddy, home, then do a repeat on way back to office.

So even a 'low spec' 24Kwh Leaf would do the job. (I'd go for Technica trim though)

I do rather like the e-golf, ev's generally I find relaxing to commute in, they are also very nippy, much more than the 0-60 would suggest. Mine does 0-60 in 9.3s but is as quick 0-30 as the equivalent golf GTI. The flip side of that is the 60-90 mph performance is below the equivalent bhp diesel car.

A 60 mile round trip will be fine in all but significantly below zero temps, or until the car is significantly aged. Looking online, the car should be around 175k before you drop below 60 miles of range - even then, if you're charging at home and work - it shouldn't be an issue. My e-golf now has 12,000 miles on it (5 months' use  ), the battery in that is 35.8kwh and I get a real world 125-130 miles, that's AC on, or heater and heated seats on, driving at normal speeds (no slipstreaming lorries  ).

One thing to note on some leafs, and that one you linked in particular, is that it only has a 3.3kw inverter on board. This means that there is almost no benefit to having a home wall box installed to charge it. The car will suck 3kw ish, through a normal 3 pin plug and will go 0-100% charged in 10-11hrs. The only way you can charge it faster is at a DC rapid charger. Leafs use the Chademo standard, which gives a max of about 50kw and would fully charge you in about 20mins. If you install the Zap Map app, you will be able to see where these are - there are loads inside the M25.

On cost, my golf is costing me about £25 pw more than my s80 - I think, and that assumes no out-of-routine maintenance bills and that I do all the work myself.

[tunnie]

Thanks Jimmy 

I need to check what the chargers here are at work. I've no idea how much they push out. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I'm a dinosaur who will be 'dead and gone' soon, so my opinion on cars as 'white goods' is probably not relevant....

[Viral_Jim]

Thanks Jimmy 

I need to check what the chargers here are at work. I've no idea how much they push out. 

Almost all office-based ones I've used are 7kw because (a) they're cheap to buy and install and (b) that's really all that's required. My car will go from 'empty' (<10 miles range) to full in about 5.5hrs off a 7kw charger, so even if I commuted 100miles each way, I would still have a full battery by lunchtime.

With a 3.3kw leaf, you will charge from 55% to full in about 5.5hrs even on the slowest (uk) charge i.e. 3 pin plug. Also, given that charging slows dramatically between 80% and 100%, even in the depths of winter you'll be ready to make the return trip in 2-3hrs or so. You can then charge up overnight back to 100%.

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

I believe Connect is standard on the Tekna, optional on the middle tiers and not available on Billy Basic spec cars.

[Doctor Gollum]

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

[tunnie]

Thanks Jimmy 

I need to check what the chargers here are at work. I've no idea how much they push out. 

Almost all office-based ones I've used are 7kw because (a) they're cheap to buy and install and (b) that's really all that's required. My car will go from 'empty' (<10 miles range) to full in about 5.5hrs off a 7kw charger, so even if I commuted 100miles each way, I would still have a full battery by lunchtime.

With a 3.3kw leaf, you will charge from 55% to full in about 5.5hrs even on the slowest (uk) charge i.e. 3 pin plug. Also, given that charging slows dramatically between 80% and 100%, even in the depths of winter you'll be ready to make the return trip in 2-3hrs or so. You can then charge up overnight back to 100%.

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

I believe Connect is standard on the Tekna, optional on the middle tiers and not available on Billy Basic spec cars.

Yes thanks, also seen this on some EV Opinion videos which call out this app. I think it's standard if you buy from Nissan he implied, but it's something I'd get as must have.

In theory, all I would need on range is 30 miles, as I could always do it on-way to home and charge at each end point. But that gives little room for issue if say it did not charge at work due to a fault. But it means Leaf's batteries would have to degrade considerably and even then it's not a deal breaker.

Just went to check old 3.2 girl at lunch, coolant use appears good, not topped it up since Monday and done ~75 miles since. So fingers crossed.

Still, aim to save up for a replacement is on-going, it was rather obliterated with the house extension. 

[LC0112G]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

[Nick W]

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

Ensuring that the car is up to temperature before you unplug it is also good for the range. Unlike an IC engined car, heating an EV isn't done with a waste emission

[Viral_Jim]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

At the moment, people charge at work (as I do) because its a perk, swapping the boxes out for PAYG items at say 30p per kwh would soon see them empty again for those that 'need' them. Over 2/3rds of UK homes have off street parking, and its clear that the intent is drive people towards charging at home.

My daily commute is at the upper end (I would imagine) of what most people would consider reasonable (100 miles round trip) and, despite my car being a generation behind the latest offerings, I could charge from home 80-90% of the time if I chose to. Once you get up on 160-200 miles of range as standard (which is now, with the latest generation cars), the majority of people will charge at home, or use rapids at places like Tesco, Ikea, shopping centres etc.

Remember that the average UK motorist travels 6,000 miles p.a. (company car drivers 9,000) so a 200 mile range ev would, on average need charging 30-40 times a year, or less than once a week. I'm not sure where everyone gets this idea that there will be queues at public charging stations. 

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

Yes, if you are comparing my golf to a magical second hand car that does 25,0000 miles a year, with no outlay other than standard maintenance, which you can do 100% of the work on yourself, and which you got somewhere for free. And you never drive into one of the growing number of low emissions zones.

If you could find me that second hand car, I'd hand the golf back tomorrow 

To most people, the 3 services a year the s80 would have wanted would add maybe £500-600 to the bill, so you'd be running the car a good few years to 'earn back' even the modest capital outlay (2-3yrs and 50-75k miles on a £1500-2000 car). In that time it would need a timing belt and water pump (£500), and maybe a clutch/dmf (£750). In reality I don't think you would ever catch up the difference, or if you did it would only be until something went wrong.

In reality, DIY on a £1-2,000 car will always be the cheapest form of motoring, as long as you value your time at £0 p.h. But there is a massive middle ground between the 'corporate types' running the former and 'some people' running the latter, and that's coming from someone who spent years being both


 

[Doctor Gollum]

That '£25pw' is in addition to the not unreasonable lease or finance cost...

Had you spent the deposit on an equivalent priced car, then £25 pw could be saved towards replacement every year. The finance payments saved would cover the running costs with ease.

And don't forget, regardless of price, a 10/15/20 year old car with a years ticket will depreciate far more slowly than a new one, financed or otherwise 

[Viral_Jim]

That '£25pw' is in addition to the not unreasonable lease or finance cost...

Had you spent the deposit on an equivalent priced car, then £25 pw could be saved towards replacement every year. The finance payments saved would cover the running costs with ease.

And don't forget, regardless of price, a 10/15/20 year old car with a years ticket will depreciate far more slowly than a new one, financed or otherwise 

I think you have mis-understood the calculation that I did to arrive at my decision and the £25 pw. I made the assessment over the 3yrs of the lease, assuming the Volvo I already had was at a sunk cost (ie I said it was "free").

I then compared 2 figures, the first was the 36 lease payments plus deposit (the total cost of ownership of the Golf as it is fully maintained & Insured) less the sale cost of the Volvo - ie the cost of Option A.  The second was the running costs of the volvo. I considered insurance, tax, recovery, MOT (plus £25 per MOT for small fixes like bulbs etc- seemed reasonable spread throughout the year), tyres (assuming no punctures), fuel at £1.27/l and my long term average fuel consumption plus a small number of congestion charge payments commensurate with my historical usage. I also assumed one clutch/dmf and one timing belt - these seemed reasonable taking a car from 90k to 180k. I then assumed the sale price of the Volvo using comparable cars for sale at the time with 180-190k. I assumed I would do all the work on the volvo, even though its unlikely I would do the clutch and DMF.

Comparing the two figures is what gave me the £25 per week. So at the end of 3yrs, I would save £3900, less any cost of unexpected maintenance, which I could then, in theory use to replace the volvo and start all over again. This also values at £0 the benefit of having a new car, with modern tech etc. Which, when its below zero outside and I can sit in the kitchen having a cuppa while the car defrosts and heats itself up, doesn't seem like a fair valuation. 

The deposit on the golf was £500, and there is precious little out there that would give you the required level of reliability to make the figures work.

[tunnie]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I'm told you book the bays, so would be first come first serve I think. It would become a problem as time goes on, I would see it as a perk to begin with, but accept it would need to be charged at home in a few years time.

[tunnie]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

At the moment, people charge at work (as I do) because its a perk, swapping the boxes out for PAYG items at say 30p per kwh would soon see them empty again for those that 'need' them. Over 2/3rds of UK homes have off street parking, and its clear that the intent is drive people towards charging at home.

My daily commute is at the upper end (I would imagine) of what most people would consider reasonable (100 miles round trip) and, despite my car being a generation behind the latest offerings, I could charge from home 80-90% of the time if I chose to. Once you get up on 160-200 miles of range as standard (which is now, with the latest generation cars), the majority of people will charge at home, or use rapids at places like Tesco, Ikea, shopping centres etc.

Remember that the average UK motorist travels 6,000 miles p.a. (company car drivers 9,000) so a 200 mile range ev would, on average need charging 30-40 times a year, or less than once a week. I'm not sure where everyone gets this idea that there will be queues at public charging stations. 

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

And you never drive into one of the growing number of low emissions zones.

This is key for me, our office is not in the new 2021 ULEZ boundary, but it's very close! Less than mile or so away. I never go that direction ever for the commute, but if it's tweaked or expanded just a tad, I would be in this limit. While Omega 3.2 by magic is not suspect to ULEZ, it soon no doubt will be!

Also, what if they expand LEZ to include cars, not just trucks? That is in my commute and even 2014/5/6 diesels are screwed.

EV's suddenly look even more tempting as a replacement.

[TheBoy]

A 2nd hand EV is always risky, and you'd do well to do a better job of researching them rather rely on what do-gooders are claiming on Leaf sites.  A knackered battery does mean its a write off (which is far from green, but such trivialities will bypass tree huggers).

Fast charging *DOES* *ABSOLUTELY* *UTTERLY* shag the batteries much faster.  That cannot be stressed enough.  Fast charging twice a week will easily halve the life of the battery compared to daily slow charging (slow charging = 16hrs from near flat to near charged).

Regularly using more than 50% capacity *DOES* *ABSOLUTELY* shag the batteries.  Taking them towards near empty even quite infrequently also shags the batteries.

This is proven stuff that all automotive manufacturers know from their own testing, but obviously you won't find in the brochures for obvious reasons.


Its a shame, as I think an electric motor is the right traction for an urban vehicle, but the power source needed is not found yet, so will be decades away.  Perhaps in 10 years when EVs are far more prevalent, and combustion engines slowly disappear, more hydrogen filling stations will be available as traditional petrol stations convert.  That's the only foreseeable way we will have viable EVs until a new battery tech is discovered.  Obviously, you can bet "highly refine hydrogen" is similar costs to fossil fuels....

[tunnie]

Nothing like a doom and gloom post    

Ive been been speaking to people who actually run them. 

[Varche]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I'm told you book the bays, so would be first come first serve I think. It would become a problem as time goes on, I would see it as a perk to begin with, but accept it would need to be charged at home in a few years time.

Like free spaces at work. First come first served. You end up with staff coming in earlier and earlier ( and leaving earlier) leaving the muggins to deal with the inevitable problems that arise later in the day.

A friend has an electric car in Leicester and is delighted with it. It has plenty of extras like adaptive cruise, remote switch on of air con or heating and so on.

[TheBoy]

Nothing like a doom and gloom post    

Ive been been speaking to people who actually run them. 

Either:
I believe you are being fed a whole load of BS. Or that 0.1% of people who have a miracle.
Or
These people use the car a few times a week, and get by on 3 or 4 slow charges a week.


I'm afraid the chemistry and physics are well known.  And as you know, I have close contacts into multiple automotive manufacturers.  And their internal tests unsurprisingly obey the rules of the science of the battery tech.


I know nobody will change your mind once your little wanter has kicked in, so I won't even begin to think I could ever change your views if it goes against what you want to hear, but I hate to see anyone lose/waste a significant sum of cash, moreso somebody I class as a friend.  So I simply point out the facts, so at least you go in with your eyes open, and potentially ask the right questions.

But you can call it doom and gloom if you like


As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definately for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries are not the future.  And onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably initially as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Very few manufacturers like to discuss the cost of battery replacement.

But after some digging I found the battery replacement on a hybrid Infiniti I was looking at was in excess of £20,000. I think TB is correct (apart from his views on Shami) and I would be very dubious about buying a 4 or 5 year old milk float.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Best info I can find is that Datsun offer a paltry 5 year warranty on the battery for the Leaf. Wear and tear can be up to 30%..... before they need to replace it.

[Nick W]

As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definitely for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries is not the future.  An onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.

I think you're right about the urban vehicles, and occasional longer distance use. What is required is that current battery installations need to be better standardised; every manufacturer has their own approach to building the same cells into the structure of the vehicle and that isn't acceptable. It's like buying a £20 torch, and discovering that you can only use Acme Aardvark cells, rather than just AA ones like we do now. While the reality of batteries not lasting very long hasn't been as bad as predicted, it's still a big factor. But only 25 years ago we used to accept that a 100,000 mile engine was well past its best and would benefit from remedial work.


Nobody has yet produced the sort of vehicle that would benefit from being an EV, and that's small to medium vans for local delivery; the supermarket's fleets would be good candidates, especially if they added solar charging from the roofs of their large warehouses. I suspect that this is the intended use for the expensive London Taxi platform, even the basic body structure looks a Connect sized van.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definitely for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries is not the future.  An onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.

I think you're right about the urban vehicles, and occasional longer distance use. What is required is that current battery installations need to be better standardised; every manufacturer has their own approach to building the same cells into the structure of the vehicle and that isn't acceptable. It's like buying a £20 torch, and discovering that you can only use Acme Aardvark cells, rather than just AA ones like we do now. While the reality of batteries not lasting very long hasn't been as bad as predicted, it's still a big factor. But only 25 years ago we used to accept that a 100,000 mile engine was well past its best and would benefit from remedial work.


Nobody has yet produced the sort of vehicle that would benefit from being an EV, and that's small to medium vans for local delivery; the supermarket's fleets would be good candidates, especially if they added solar charging from the roofs of their large warehouses. I suspect that this is the intended use for the expensive London Taxi platform, even the basic body structure looks a Connect sized van.

As a lad, when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, it was common to see ads for used cars that read something like.......Vauxhall Viva for sale 53000 miles only. Just had a rebore and decoke. Lovely car. 

[Viral_Jim]

Nothing like a doom and gloom post    

Ive been been speaking to people who actually run them. 

Either:
I believe you are being fed a whole load of BS. Or that 0.1% of people who have a miracle.
Or
These people use the car a few times a week, and get by on 3 or 4 slow charges a week.


I'm afraid the chemistry and physics are well known.  And as you know, I have close contacts into multiple automotive manufacturers.  And their internal tests unsurprisingly obey the rules of the science of the battery tech.


I know nobody will change your mind once your little wanter has kicked in, so I won't even begin to think I could ever change your views if it goes against what you want to hear, but I hate to see anyone lose/waste a significant sum of cash, moreso somebody I class as a friend.  So I simply point out the facts, so at least you go in with your eyes open, and potentially ask the right questions.

But you can call it doom and gloom if you like


As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definately for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries are not the future.  And onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably initially as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.

I find this really interesting, as it just doesn't stack with real people I know and their real cars, that I've really been driven in. I suppose they must be the 0.1%.

I'm keeping a reasonably close eye on how I treat the golf, from a purely interest perspective rather than a 'takibg care of the battery' angle. I'm nearly 1/6 of the way through my time with it and so far I haven't felt/noticed any battery loss.

My usage pattern is that about 50% of my "charging events" are on 50kw rapids, but of those, 75% are probably 15mins or less i.e. I chuck in 20-40miles while I go for a pee and pick up a coffee. The remaining 25% are at the far end of long journeys, usually while I'm in meetings where it goes up to 100%.

I always charge it to 100% of its available capacity where practical, and I regularly run it down to 3-5miles of range remaining. However, that doesn't tell you anything as the actual battery capacity, and the usable capacity are not the same thing. Maybe the cars have greater capacity than is allowed to the user, in order to hide the degredation, but it doesn't seem practical from a cost perspective. Also, thermal management must play a part, which laptops and phones don't have in their batteries.

It'll interesting to see what capacity I'm left with after 75k miles.

[tunnie]

Be really good to see how you get on in next 10-20k which won’t be long, looking at your mile history.

Second hand ones with 10-15k on the clock are reasonable money.

What’s yours on now?

[Viral_Jim]

Be really good to see how you get on in next 10-20k which won’t be long, looking at your mile history.

Second hand ones with 10-15k on the clock are reasonable money.

What’s yours on now?

12,202 miles right now. And I'm pretty sure I took delivery on 12th March.  It's on a 25k p.a. lease and I think I'll be fine, the big thing is I've not really had any holiday since I got it and it's basically all commuting miles.

To give you an idea of my driving style, the fronts are just starting to tickle the wear bars 

[Varche]

As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definitely for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries is not the future.  An onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.

I think you're right about the urban vehicles, and occasional longer distance use. What is required is that current battery installations need to be better standardised; every manufacturer has their own approach to building the same cells into the structure of the vehicle and that isn't acceptable. It's like buying a £20 torch, and discovering that you can only use Acme Aardvark cells, rather than just AA ones like we do now. While the reality of batteries not lasting very long hasn't been as bad as predicted, it's still a big factor. But only 25 years ago we used to accept that a 100,000 mile engine was well past its best and would benefit from remedial work.


Nobody has yet produced the sort of vehicle that would benefit from being an EV, and that's small to medium vans for local delivery; the supermarket's fleets would be good candidates, especially if they added solar charging from the roofs of their large warehouses. I suspect that this is the intended use for the expensive London Taxi platform, even the basic body structure looks a Connect sized van.

Agreed. I always expected one option for motorists would be to call at a service station and pay for a standard replacement cassette battery that is charged up on an exchange basis so you could do long journeys. Service stations could be equipped with solar panel arrays and a wind turbine.

We can only have a max of 5.5kw supply but a solar panel array on our garage would I suspect reliably provide 3kw @ 300 days a year. We might move in a couple of years so maybe by then options would be more obvious.

[Nick W]

Agreed. I always expected one option for motorists would be to call at a service station and pay for a standard replacement cassette battery that is charged up on an exchange basis so you could do long journeys. Service stations could be equipped with solar panel arrays and a wind turbine.

That's not really practical, you need a large number of cells to make a battery big enough to power a car so replacing them like you pump fuel into a tank is unlikely to work. Then there's the value of the things, they're a large part of the value of the car and just swapping them is going to cause all sorts of blame when something does go wrong.

[LC0112G]

Doctor, I think I must be ill. I've just read two posts by TheBoy which I 100% agree with. Help Me.

[Rods2]

TB is right & this advice is exactly the same for all lithium battery based devices including mobile phones. There are three types of batteries unprotected two terminal ones, which have a real risk of fire & explosion & two or three terminal protected ones where two terminal are internally regulated & externally regulated ones use the third terminal to get the charger to regulate it, which is used to control the charging rate and temperature.to stop them bursting into flames & destroying themselves & their surroundings. Once a cell is out of the safe specification, the regulation system will stop that cell from being charged to stop any fire & explosion risk. Lithium battery capacity is affected by temperature & like all batteries there will be ~1% per day self-discharge rate. Apparently hydrogen powered vehicles have a much higher natural fuel evaporation rate compared to fossil fueled cars where the atoms are much smaller & more difficult to contain.

About 25% of an EV car's battery pack is each cell's electronics to keep them safe. Like in all areas better lighter electronic protection/regulation systems are happening with many new patents in this area so I expect the 25% weight to drop as better designs are introduced, but batteries are always going to be at a big disadvantage where there energy density is much, much lower than fossil fuels & that is unlikely to ever change by much, where there have only been incremental improvements over the last 100 years of battery development.

In between developing an unenclosed nuclear powered cruise missile that has just blown up killing 7 and giving Eastern Europe a measurable radiation cloud, maybe next week Putin will decide that unenclosed nuclear cars for the masses is the future, what could possibly go wrong. Such small nuclear reactors have to be unenclosed to make the weight viable if you are putting them in missiles. The US worked on this in the 1960s before deciding it wasn't a good idea.

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2019/08/nuclear-powered-cruise-missiles-are-terrible-idea-russias-test-explosion-shows-why/159189/?oref=d-river

I have recently had this problem on a USB charged lithium battery torch where the discharge rapidly went from reasonable capacity to about 10% capacity in about 10 charge cycles until it wouldn't charge charge at all. A lesson I've now learn't is when you buy a rechargeable lithium LED torch make sure the battery is replacable. Me being me after several attempts at taking it apart I decided that there must be a battery compartment threaded access on the cylindrical aluminium body & the use of two pairs of stilsons on it, I found the locktighted joint. It contains a bespoke 3 terminal design AA sized battery & where I  haven't been able to find a replacement I've disconnected the internal USB charger & will charge the internally protected replacement using an external charger on it. There are also several times of positive terminal with button head & flat head being the most common.

[Viral_Jim]

Agreed. I always expected one option for motorists would be to call at a service station and pay for a standard replacement cassette battery that is charged up on an exchange basis so you could do long journeys. Service stations could be equipped with solar panel arrays and a wind turbine.

That's not really practical, you need a large number of cells to make a battery big enough to power a car so replacing them like you pump fuel into a tank is unlikely to work. Then there's the value of the things, they're a large part of the value of the car and just swapping them is going to cause all sorts of blame when something does go wrong.

And not necessary really. 150kw CCS chargers are being rolled out now. Add that to a 200 mile EV and it means you drive for 3-3.5hrs (mostly it's tough to average 65mph over any journey) you then stop for 15-20mins and you can get going again. This is the reality of the Tesla model 3,S and X and it's superchargers which are already 125-140kw with 250kw units on the way. This tech will trickle out into other manufacturers soon enough (iirc the Porsche Taycan will allegedly take 350kw).

Of course, if the physics and chemistry is truly settled and as simple as faster charge = battery death, I assume pushing 350kw into a battery will kill it in a matter of months....

The 8yr, 100k mile, 70% capacity warranty will surely take a battering...

[Rods2]

Agreed. I always expected one option for motorists would be to call at a service station and pay for a standard replacement cassette battery that is charged up on an exchange basis so you could do long journeys. Service stations could be equipped with solar panel arrays and a wind turbine.

That's not really practical, you need a large number of cells to make a battery big enough to power a car so replacing them like you pump fuel into a tank is unlikely to work. Then there's the value of the things, they're a large part of the value of the car and just swapping them is going to cause all sorts of blame when something does go wrong.

And not necessary really. 150kw CCS chargers are being rolled out now. Add that to a 200 mile EV and it means you drive for 3-3.5hrs (mostly it's tough to average 65mph over any journey) you then stop for 15-20mins and you can get going again. This is the reality of the Tesla model 3,S and X and it's superchargers which are already 125-140kw with 250kw units on the way. This tech will trickle out into other manufacturers soon enough (iirc the Porsche Taycan will allegedly take 350kw).

Of course, if the physics and chemistry is truly settled and as simple as faster charge = battery death, I assume pushing 350kw into a battery will kill it in a matter of months....

The 8yr, 100k mile, 70% capacity warranty will surely take a battering...

That is an area where big improvements are being made & real world use instead of theoretical development testing cycles will give an idea or what ideal v real lifetimes are. One thing with fast charging is the voltage & hence current increase & charging efficiency goes down where more heat is generated & this will stress the batteries more. Again real v actual will only be known over time, but if you can charge the batteries most of the time while they are still over 50% and use slow charging most of the time then you can expect the batteries to last much longer. If you are on a 3yr contract as long as they last this duration, do you care if they don't for an owner down the line? I'm not sure it would overly bother me where I've paid a new car premium for the convenience & reliability while I owned it & if somebody buys secondhand then that is there problem. How long before there is a Terry thread on: How do I replace the batteries in my 200k mile very cheap ev?

[Rods2]

As an aside where there is a big car market for steal to order & break for spares, especially with them ending up in the poorer parts of Europe & Africa. How long before EVs are stolen to order for their batteries?

[aaronjb]

How long before EVs are stolen to order for their batteries?

Given the average intelligence of a thieving knuckle dragger, and the stored potential in the battery packs, that should make for impressive fireworks (almost as impressive as when they try to steal copper out of a sub-station)..

[Sir Tigger KC]

This is what Tunnie needs for his commute! 

I want one! 

[tunnie]

Not sure I’d take that down the M3....

[Sir Tigger KC]

Not sure I’d take that down the M3....

Aaah it'd be alright!    What could possibly go wrong?     

[Nick W]

This is what Tunnie needs for his commute! 

I want one! 

It's the sort of personal transport that should be encouraged for urban use, where it's the sheer volume of traffic that is the biggest problem. We should subsidise urban public transport more efficiently too, but that's another rant.


The original Smart and BMW Minis should have been EVs. That would have have removed the atrocious Smart drivetrain, and made a much better car.

[Varche]

And that brings us neatly back to the simple humble but very effective electric scooter ( not the Vespa type). Of course they will have to be outlawed.

[aaronjb]

The original Smart and BMW Minis should have been EVs. That would have have removed the atrocious Smart drivetrain, and made a much better car.

Both are available as EVs now ... at an extortionate price.

[Nick W]

The original Smart and BMW Minis should have been EVs. That would have have removed the atrocious Smart drivetrain, and made a much better car.

Both are available as EVs now ... at an extortionate price.

Yes, now. The Smart's deficiencies would have been a lot less with an electric powertrain, and the whole car is well suited to that sort of use. The Mini was BMW's tacit admission that they needed a hot hatch without diluting their RWD only mantra. Not that it matters any more.



Of course the prices are extortionate, what else would you expect from Mercedes and BMW?

[BazaJT]

In racing applications battery temperatures have to be closely monitored and indeed at the last MotoGP round in Austria one of the MotoE bikes caught fire whilst being charged.Presumably for racing they're pushing the boundaries and battery temps aren't such an issue with road vehicles?

[aaronjb]

In racing applications battery temperatures have to be closely monitored and indeed at the last MotoGP round in Austria one of the MotoE bikes caught fire whilst being charged.Presumably for racing they're pushing the boundaries and battery temps aren't such an issue with road vehicles?

The Tesla (probably all other EVs?) still has a radiator, coolant system, electric coolant pump etc .. that should give you an idea of how seriously battery temperatures have to be taken when you're dealing with Lithium technology batteries.. but yes, I imagine in motorsport they are pushing the envelope

[Viral_Jim]

This was the main issue with Gen1 Leafs, they had only passive thermal battery management. Indeed, they still do today, but with different battery chemistry that helps and also improved passive cooling.

AFAIK all other big ev manufacturers use active thermal management (both to warm the batteries and cool them).