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[Viral_Jim]

Thanks Jimmy 

I need to check what the chargers here are at work. I've no idea how much they push out. 

Almost all office-based ones I've used are 7kw because (a) they're cheap to buy and install and (b) that's really all that's required. My car will go from 'empty' (<10 miles range) to full in about 5.5hrs off a 7kw charger, so even if I commuted 100miles each way, I would still have a full battery by lunchtime.

With a 3.3kw leaf, you will charge from 55% to full in about 5.5hrs even on the slowest (uk) charge i.e. 3 pin plug. Also, given that charging slows dramatically between 80% and 100%, even in the depths of winter you'll be ready to make the return trip in 2-3hrs or so. You can then charge up overnight back to 100%.

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

I believe Connect is standard on the Tekna, optional on the middle tiers and not available on Billy Basic spec cars.

[Doctor Gollum]

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

[tunnie]

Thanks Jimmy 

I need to check what the chargers here are at work. I've no idea how much they push out. 

Almost all office-based ones I've used are 7kw because (a) they're cheap to buy and install and (b) that's really all that's required. My car will go from 'empty' (<10 miles range) to full in about 5.5hrs off a 7kw charger, so even if I commuted 100miles each way, I would still have a full battery by lunchtime.

With a 3.3kw leaf, you will charge from 55% to full in about 5.5hrs even on the slowest (uk) charge i.e. 3 pin plug. Also, given that charging slows dramatically between 80% and 100%, even in the depths of winter you'll be ready to make the return trip in 2-3hrs or so. You can then charge up overnight back to 100%.

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

I believe Connect is standard on the Tekna, optional on the middle tiers and not available on Billy Basic spec cars.

Yes thanks, also seen this on some EV Opinion videos which call out this app. I think it's standard if you buy from Nissan he implied, but it's something I'd get as must have.

In theory, all I would need on range is 30 miles, as I could always do it on-way to home and charge at each end point. But that gives little room for issue if say it did not charge at work due to a fault. But it means Leaf's batteries would have to degrade considerably and even then it's not a deal breaker.

Just went to check old 3.2 girl at lunch, coolant use appears good, not topped it up since Monday and done ~75 miles since. So fingers crossed.

Still, aim to save up for a replacement is on-going, it was rather obliterated with the house extension. 

[LC0112G]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

[Nick W]

Another thing I would put on a list of must-haves is Nissan Connect. It's Nissan's own app that allows you to see if the car is charging and how long it will take to fill (great for the occasional bouts of paranoia about "is it actually charging - will I be able to get home" which I sometimes get). More usefully, as long as the car is plugged in, you can also start the cabin heater from your phone, which I find great for cold mornings, and it means you hardly ever have to scrape the screen. 

Ensuring that the car is up to temperature before you unplug it is also good for the range. Unlike an IC engined car, heating an EV isn't done with a waste emission

[Viral_Jim]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

At the moment, people charge at work (as I do) because its a perk, swapping the boxes out for PAYG items at say 30p per kwh would soon see them empty again for those that 'need' them. Over 2/3rds of UK homes have off street parking, and its clear that the intent is drive people towards charging at home.

My daily commute is at the upper end (I would imagine) of what most people would consider reasonable (100 miles round trip) and, despite my car being a generation behind the latest offerings, I could charge from home 80-90% of the time if I chose to. Once you get up on 160-200 miles of range as standard (which is now, with the latest generation cars), the majority of people will charge at home, or use rapids at places like Tesco, Ikea, shopping centres etc.

Remember that the average UK motorist travels 6,000 miles p.a. (company car drivers 9,000) so a 200 mile range ev would, on average need charging 30-40 times a year, or less than once a week. I'm not sure where everyone gets this idea that there will be queues at public charging stations. 

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

Yes, if you are comparing my golf to a magical second hand car that does 25,0000 miles a year, with no outlay other than standard maintenance, which you can do 100% of the work on yourself, and which you got somewhere for free. And you never drive into one of the growing number of low emissions zones.

If you could find me that second hand car, I'd hand the golf back tomorrow 

To most people, the 3 services a year the s80 would have wanted would add maybe £500-600 to the bill, so you'd be running the car a good few years to 'earn back' even the modest capital outlay (2-3yrs and 50-75k miles on a £1500-2000 car). In that time it would need a timing belt and water pump (£500), and maybe a clutch/dmf (£750). In reality I don't think you would ever catch up the difference, or if you did it would only be until something went wrong.

In reality, DIY on a £1-2,000 car will always be the cheapest form of motoring, as long as you value your time at £0 p.h. But there is a massive middle ground between the 'corporate types' running the former and 'some people' running the latter, and that's coming from someone who spent years being both


 

[Doctor Gollum]

That '£25pw' is in addition to the not unreasonable lease or finance cost...

Had you spent the deposit on an equivalent priced car, then £25 pw could be saved towards replacement every year. The finance payments saved would cover the running costs with ease.

And don't forget, regardless of price, a 10/15/20 year old car with a years ticket will depreciate far more slowly than a new one, financed or otherwise 

[Viral_Jim]

That '£25pw' is in addition to the not unreasonable lease or finance cost...

Had you spent the deposit on an equivalent priced car, then £25 pw could be saved towards replacement every year. The finance payments saved would cover the running costs with ease.

And don't forget, regardless of price, a 10/15/20 year old car with a years ticket will depreciate far more slowly than a new one, financed or otherwise 

I think you have mis-understood the calculation that I did to arrive at my decision and the £25 pw. I made the assessment over the 3yrs of the lease, assuming the Volvo I already had was at a sunk cost (ie I said it was "free").

I then compared 2 figures, the first was the 36 lease payments plus deposit (the total cost of ownership of the Golf as it is fully maintained & Insured) less the sale cost of the Volvo - ie the cost of Option A.  The second was the running costs of the volvo. I considered insurance, tax, recovery, MOT (plus £25 per MOT for small fixes like bulbs etc- seemed reasonable spread throughout the year), tyres (assuming no punctures), fuel at £1.27/l and my long term average fuel consumption plus a small number of congestion charge payments commensurate with my historical usage. I also assumed one clutch/dmf and one timing belt - these seemed reasonable taking a car from 90k to 180k. I then assumed the sale price of the Volvo using comparable cars for sale at the time with 180-190k. I assumed I would do all the work on the volvo, even though its unlikely I would do the clutch and DMF.

Comparing the two figures is what gave me the £25 per week. So at the end of 3yrs, I would save £3900, less any cost of unexpected maintenance, which I could then, in theory use to replace the volvo and start all over again. This also values at £0 the benefit of having a new car, with modern tech etc. Which, when its below zero outside and I can sit in the kitchen having a cuppa while the car defrosts and heats itself up, doesn't seem like a fair valuation. 

The deposit on the golf was £500, and there is precious little out there that would give you the required level of reliability to make the figures work.

[tunnie]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I'm told you book the bays, so would be first come first serve I think. It would become a problem as time goes on, I would see it as a perk to begin with, but accept it would need to be charged at home in a few years time.

[tunnie]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I imagine this may well become a problem as time moves on. If the number of milk floats significantly exceeds the number of chargers (as seems likely) there will be blood on the streets....

At the moment, people charge at work (as I do) because its a perk, swapping the boxes out for PAYG items at say 30p per kwh would soon see them empty again for those that 'need' them. Over 2/3rds of UK homes have off street parking, and its clear that the intent is drive people towards charging at home.

My daily commute is at the upper end (I would imagine) of what most people would consider reasonable (100 miles round trip) and, despite my car being a generation behind the latest offerings, I could charge from home 80-90% of the time if I chose to. Once you get up on 160-200 miles of range as standard (which is now, with the latest generation cars), the majority of people will charge at home, or use rapids at places like Tesco, Ikea, shopping centres etc.

Remember that the average UK motorist travels 6,000 miles p.a. (company car drivers 9,000) so a 200 mile range ev would, on average need charging 30-40 times a year, or less than once a week. I'm not sure where everyone gets this idea that there will be queues at public charging stations. 

£25pw is £1,300 a year.

Possibly not much to corporate types, but enough of a difference to some people.

Would pay for two or three weeks holiday a year, for example.

And you never drive into one of the growing number of low emissions zones.

This is key for me, our office is not in the new 2021 ULEZ boundary, but it's very close! Less than mile or so away. I never go that direction ever for the commute, but if it's tweaked or expanded just a tad, I would be in this limit. While Omega 3.2 by magic is not suspect to ULEZ, it soon no doubt will be!

Also, what if they expand LEZ to include cars, not just trucks? That is in my commute and even 2014/5/6 diesels are screwed.

EV's suddenly look even more tempting as a replacement.

[TheBoy]

A 2nd hand EV is always risky, and you'd do well to do a better job of researching them rather rely on what do-gooders are claiming on Leaf sites.  A knackered battery does mean its a write off (which is far from green, but such trivialities will bypass tree huggers).

Fast charging *DOES* *ABSOLUTELY* *UTTERLY* shag the batteries much faster.  That cannot be stressed enough.  Fast charging twice a week will easily halve the life of the battery compared to daily slow charging (slow charging = 16hrs from near flat to near charged).

Regularly using more than 50% capacity *DOES* *ABSOLUTELY* shag the batteries.  Taking them towards near empty even quite infrequently also shags the batteries.

This is proven stuff that all automotive manufacturers know from their own testing, but obviously you won't find in the brochures for obvious reasons.


Its a shame, as I think an electric motor is the right traction for an urban vehicle, but the power source needed is not found yet, so will be decades away.  Perhaps in 10 years when EVs are far more prevalent, and combustion engines slowly disappear, more hydrogen filling stations will be available as traditional petrol stations convert.  That's the only foreseeable way we will have viable EVs until a new battery tech is discovered.  Obviously, you can bet "highly refine hydrogen" is similar costs to fossil fuels....

[tunnie]

Nothing like a doom and gloom post    

Ive been been speaking to people who actually run them. 

[Varche]

I knew Guffers ran one of these...

https://usedcars.nissan.co.uk/en/vehicles/nissan/leaf/e-24kwh-tekna-5-dr-hatchback-mqb3fwu

Those second hand prices make it a consideration for Omega replacement, currently I could charge an electric car for free at work. Number of floors at our multi-stories are decked out with charge points.

My commute is ~26/27 miles each way, I could charge it up at work, do return trip to home and back again then charge for free at work.

Mummy bus would remain for longer journeys when needed.


Hummmmm.

If there are (say) 10 charging points in your parking garages, what happens once the 11th person in on your site decides to buy an electric car?

I'm told you book the bays, so would be first come first serve I think. It would become a problem as time goes on, I would see it as a perk to begin with, but accept it would need to be charged at home in a few years time.

Like free spaces at work. First come first served. You end up with staff coming in earlier and earlier ( and leaving earlier) leaving the muggins to deal with the inevitable problems that arise later in the day.

A friend has an electric car in Leicester and is delighted with it. It has plenty of extras like adaptive cruise, remote switch on of air con or heating and so on.

[TheBoy]

Nothing like a doom and gloom post    

Ive been been speaking to people who actually run them. 

Either:
I believe you are being fed a whole load of BS. Or that 0.1% of people who have a miracle.
Or
These people use the car a few times a week, and get by on 3 or 4 slow charges a week.


I'm afraid the chemistry and physics are well known.  And as you know, I have close contacts into multiple automotive manufacturers.  And their internal tests unsurprisingly obey the rules of the science of the battery tech.


I know nobody will change your mind once your little wanter has kicked in, so I won't even begin to think I could ever change your views if it goes against what you want to hear, but I hate to see anyone lose/waste a significant sum of cash, moreso somebody I class as a friend.  So I simply point out the facts, so at least you go in with your eyes open, and potentially ask the right questions.

But you can call it doom and gloom if you like


As I pointed out, I think EVs are the future, definately for urban vehicles.  But using current Lithium tech batteries are not the future.  And onboard generator is the near/mid term solution, probably initially as fossil fuelled hybrid initially, fuel cells as the infrastructure becomes available and the greenies realise that batteries are not viable.