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[wheels-inmotion]

Various methods are described to encourage you to resolve tyre wear or handling issues, additionally members in forums are keen to advise but often fall victim to the same miss-information, read carefully and stay ahead of 'alignment the big con'

Tracking/Alignment
Is linear, this measurement shows no concern for any other angle. This form of measurement is the most common in the World and the most damaging.
Angles measured 1

Four wheel Alignment
Uses the rear wheels as a scale to centre the steering rack.... then the front toe..... this is better but is assuming the rear is centred.
Angles measured 2

Four wheel Laser Alignment
Same as above.... be wise!

Geometry/Primary
Will image the exact rear centre line to permit a centred steering wheel.. additionally the front and rear camber positions will be measured. This is the most common form of Geometry and i consider this as 'basic'
Angles measured 8

Full Geometry/primary and Secondary
Is absolute but harder to understand. Few places even with the equipment measure the Secondary angles, these include...
Castor
KPI/SJI/SAI
Scrub radius
included angle
TOOT/Ackerman
Delta curve
and so on

Most areas that involve rapid tyre wear or handling issues need to be read from the 'Secondary' data, even more important if the car has been modified or for diagnostics after an accident.
Angles measured 15+

Not easy reading indeed, millions of pounds change hands every day for 'Alignment', a need to be wise could save you £ssss

One more thing to make the 'blood boil'.. The Primary and secondary Geometry has a customer destination?

1: Primary is the 'dumb' customer version
2: Secondary is with held unless requested and named the 'Technicians version.

[TheBoy]

Welcome Wheels-InMotion - we're really please to have you here

For those that don't know, wheels-inmotion (http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk) is a free information site on alignment, and well worth a read.

The guy behind it is who I personally use to align my car, and is based in Watford, North London.  I can thoroughly recommend him - my car is now a different car, handling is much 'sharper' and tyre wear is dramatically reduced.

If you are not too far from Watford, I would thoroughly recommend then to do your alignment.  And don't forget to mention Omega Owners for a discount

[Markjay]

Good to see you here, Wheels-InMotion! Which reminds me I need to give you a call to arrange the 2,000 mile check.

And for any newbies out there - STS Watford is the place to go and Tony is the man to see!

[Markie]

a right good read that  

bit fa for me to go though  

welcome wheels-inmotion

[Craig_R]

Yep Popped into see Toni yesterday to get my alignment done lucky for me I just moved to watford and STS Watford is one Road away.

Told Toni about this Forum Yesterday.

Oooo Do you get a Free 2000 Mile Check on wheel Alignment or is that just the full works you get a free check.

Craig

[MadOnVaux]

TOOT/Ackerman

 There is deffinately a female porn star with that name...must be.  

 Informative thread mate

[itisme]

A very interesting read.  
My car before last, a Senator, was very heavy on tyres. When my local tyre centre installed “4 wheel tracking” they found that both rear wheels were steering to the left.
Tyre wear was much better after this was sorted. How much better could it have been with a proper geometry set-up?
Now, all I need is a trusted centre in or near Northampton.
Can anybody recommend somewhere?

[philayl]

Hi Wheels-In-Motion, very informative read. Does anyone know of someone on the Wirral who can provide the same service, Watford is a bit too far to go. I know the Vauxhall agent can do this, but I have no confidence in their muppets.

[TheBoy]

Now, all I need is a trusted centre in or near Northampton.
Can anybody recommend somewhere?

Watford isn't that far

[TheBoy]

Hi Wheels-In-Motion, very informative read. Does anyone know of someone on the Wirral who can provide the same service, Watford is a bit too far to go. I know the Vauxhall agent can do this, but I have no confidence in their muppets.

The Wheels-InMotion website (http://www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk) has a few trusted centres, have a gander at the site...

[itisme]

Now, all I need is a trusted centre in or near Northampton.
Can anybody recommend somewhere?

Watford isn't that far

54 miles from where I live. Not the other side of the moon, but a long to go to get your tracking done.
And it's inside the M25, Scary!!! [smiley=undecided.gif]

[TheBoy]

I'm in Brackley, so about 70m from me, but worth it for me...

[Taxi_Driver]

It seems gone are the days where an 'old pro'....just used to give the steering a tweak.

I use a tyre place that the boss, didnt change the tyres himself....he'd been doing it for donkey years and think it was getting a bit too much for him.

However when i took a car in there once for new fronts as one had been scuffing (nearside and outside edge).....most tyre places especially in Swindon, blame the amount of roundabouts for it.
But when i showed him the tyre.....he got one of crew to take the wheel off....and out came some spanners....dunno what he adjusted....but when the new fronts were fitted....no more scuffing  

I guess years of knowing what to adjust and by how much......did the trick.

Unfortunately he retired about six months ago and the guys that took over even tho they were the same that worked with him......dont do this anymore!  

They now suggest a wheel alignment centre in Swindon....which i think costs £70 for a 4 wheel laser alignment.

Not that im knocking laser/computer alignment etc as im sure its far more accurate.......but i reckon....that was customer service....and a lot cheaper  

And if Tony was in Swindon! I would take mine there to have them checked, going by the great references he gets.....well i would my Omega coz i drive it with care.....wouldnt bother with the others....they're rented out....need i say more!!

Cheers

[wheels-inmotion]

It seems gone are the days where an 'old pro'....just used to give the steering a tweak.

I use a tyre place that the boss, didnt change the tyres himself....he'd been doing it for donkey years and think it was getting a bit too much for him.

However when i took a car in there once for new fronts as one had been scuffing (nearside and outside edge).....most tyre places especially in Swindon, blame the amount of roundabouts for it.
But when i showed him the tyre.....he got one of crew to take the wheel off....and out came some spanners....dunno what he adjusted....but when the new fronts were fitted....no more scuffing  

I guess years of knowing what to adjust and by how much......did the trick.

Unfortunately he retired about six months ago and the guys that took over even tho they were the same that worked with him......dont do this anymore!  

They now suggest a wheel alignment centre in Swindon....which i think costs £70 for a 4 wheel laser alignment.

Not that im knocking laser/computer alignment etc as im sure its far more accurate.......but i reckon....that was customer service....and a lot cheaper  

And if Tony was in Swindon! I would take mine there to have them checked, going by the great references he gets.....well i would my Omega coz i drive it with care.....wouldnt bother with the others....they're rented out....need i say more!!

Cheers

First i must say Thank You team for the warm welcome, Second i warn you this field is complicated but vital to the Omega Geometrically so if you want to pursue this area i am more than willing to accommodate

The reason for this post within a quote is 'Laser Alignment' is not what it says on the box?... laser only measures straight lines this will not allow for the camber positions.... in truth the camber curve on the Omega is an issue, we can explore this later if you like?..... anyhoo thank's team for the warm welcome.

[mar892ree]

Tony, i have sent you a PM mate

Mark

[nixoro]

Welcome wheels-inmotion  

[Liam]

Hello tony.  Great info on your site.  Many thanks for putting it all up.

When i replaced my front wishbones i stupidly neglected to check the alignment afterwards and in a few hundred miles had destroyed the inner edge of two good front tyes

It went quick smart to STS Wheel Alignment Centre in Bedford.  They use a Hunter system and if i recall their prices were something like 50 quid for a full geometry check including basic adjustment (i.e. toe) and about 20 quid more for more adjustments (i.e. camber).

I was able to watch the guy doing his thing.  Was quite interesting.  All the angles came up on the screen (including the 'extras' mentioned above) compared with VXs spec.  My front toe was off the scale out after the wishbone change and the cause my tyre wear problem.  I noticed with surprise that my track control adjusters both cracked loose easily enough (and the guy pointed out one of my TCAs was slightly bent!).

Camber was interesting too.  Both front wheels were in VX spec but were literally either side of the scale and so there was over a degree between them.  Now if I was a cynical git, I'd say that he didn't need to adjust camber as it was in spec, and only did it for the extra cash.  But i'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he noticed the big variation in camber between each wheel (albeit within spec) and deemed it important to adjust them properly to be near enough equal.

At the end of the day he cured the horrible tyre wear and the pull to one side and my meggy now drives great!!  So that's a recommendation for STS Wheel Alignment Centre in Bedford.  Got a nice before/after/VXspec printout too.  Now I even know my car's thrust angle - woo hooo:)

Liam

[Marks DTM Calib]

Bedford, well thats closer to Northampton.

[iggy21uk]

Me to -well pleased with the result.

Good to see you here, Wheels-InMotion! Which reminds me I need to give you a call to arrange the 2,000 mile check.

And for any newbies out there - STS Watford is the place to go and Tony is the man to see!

[Jimbob]

Has anyone had this done in the Chester area?  any recommendations?
Whats the opinion on letting Vaux themselves do it?

[itisme]

Bedford, well thats closer to Northampton.

It certainly is. I'll give them a call in a couple weeks, when I've got some time to spare.
Thanks. [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

[paulr]

Ther is one in Oldam. Would also like to here from anyone who has used them and how much it would cost for a full setup. Heres there info DRURY LANE DIAGNOSTIC CENTRE

Drury lane Hollinwood Oldham OL9 7NG
Phone 0161 6887882
Web address No
Machine: Pro Align 800 Series
Print out Yes
Cost £25 measure only
Adjustments £16.50 each regardless of duration/ labour only
Fine tuning Yes/ if geometry is considered unstable
Cost £0
Mileage limit 1500

Has anyone had this done in the Chester area?  any recommendations?
Whats the opinion on letting Vaux themselves do it?

[TheBoy]

i vaguely recall someone saying the drury lane,oldham one was good...

[Admin]

It may be a fair old drive, but I want the new car done proerly (especially with the rubber on them!), so I think a trip to see Tony is in order shortly.

Tony, I'll be in touch.

[wheels-inmotion]

It may be a fair old drive, but I want the new car done proerly (especially with the rubber on them!), so I think a trip to see Tony is in order shortly.

Tony, I'll be in touch.

Please do!...

[Markjay]

Tony, the guy at STS said you were away sick a couple of days last week, are you well now...?

[Sir Sideways]

Welcome Tony, glad to have u on the site.

Jim

[summat]

Thanks for the info, paul_wighton in Oldham has just been emailed, thanks for the Trusted links.

[wheels-inmotion]

Thanks for the info, paul_wighton in Oldham has just been emailed, thanks for the Trusted links.

Be sure to mention our link.. wim has discounts established for the club.

[TheOutcast]

It went quick smart to STS Wheel Alignment Centre in Bedford.  They use a Hunter system and if i recall their prices were something like 50 quid for a full geometry check including basic adjustment (i.e. toe) and about 20 quid more for more adjustments (i.e. camber).

Liam

Same name as the one in Watford, but, I believe, a totally separate company. I'm sure that the only connection is the name. STS.
But that don't mean they ain't good.

[wheels-inmotion]

Hello tony.  Great info on your site.  Many thanks for putting it all up.

When i replaced my front wishbones i stupidly neglected to check the alignment afterwards and in a few hundred miles had destroyed the inner edge of two good front tyes

It went quick smart to STS Wheel Alignment Centre in Bedford.  They use a Hunter system and if i recall their prices were something like 50 quid for a full geometry check including basic adjustment (i.e. toe) and about 20 quid more for more adjustments (i.e. camber).

I was able to watch the guy doing his thing.  Was quite interesting.  All the angles came up on the screen (including the 'extras' mentioned above) compared with VXs spec.  My front toe was off the scale out after the wishbone change and the cause my tyre wear problem.  I noticed with surprise that my track control adjusters both cracked loose easily enough (and the guy pointed out one of my TCAs was slightly bent!).

Camber was interesting too.  Both front wheels were in VX spec but were literally either side of the scale and so there was over a degree between them.  Now if I was a cynical git, I'd say that he didn't need to adjust camber as it was in spec, and only did it for the extra cash.  But i'm more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he noticed the big variation in camber between each wheel (albeit within spec) and deemed it important to adjust them properly to be near enough equal.

At the end of the day he cured the horrible tyre wear and the pull to one side and my meggy now drives great!!  So that's a recommendation for STS Wheel Alignment Centre in Bedford.  Got a nice before/after/VXspec printout too.  Now I even know my car's thrust angle - woo hooo:)

Liam

The Dynamic range has no relevance to the operator setting the geometry. Dynamics are for mechanical engineers..... Have a read of this it may help you understand the 'Static and Dynamic' conundrum.
www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=213

[RonaldMcBurger]

I think all this wheel alignment stuff is nonsense. I changed the wishbones on my Omega in February and did 4000 miles after that without any problems at all.

I found that the car didn't pull that badly and could easily be corrected by bouncing off the nearside kerb every 200 or 300 yards. Also the tyres were fine and I only had to replace them 7 times in that whole 4000 miles, so I don't get all this wasting money on alignment.

And another thing, The car was much easier to park after I did a DIY tracking myself. Basically undo the track rods, stand about 30 yards in front of the car and look which wheel looks a bit out. Adjust and repeat until the look about the same (within 4 or 5 inches anyway) and Bob's your auntie. parking into right hand bays was much easier than left ones, but that was because the crabbing was severe that side, but that's how I like it.

Also, by doing the job yourself using mole grips I found a surprising bonus. It makes people more friendly. I had no end of people waving at me and shouting great comments like 'your tyres are smoking'. Well, what more can I say? With comments like that, who needs Tony at Watford?

[Andy B]

Thanks for the info, paul_wighton in Oldham has just been emailed, thanks for the Trusted links.

Have you been to Oldham yet? If so how did you get on? I'm still not sure about the set up on my car and the further I go the more I worry about bu99ering up my new tyres.   It was all supposedly 4 wheel set but it still has a tendancy to pull slightly.

[wheels-inmotion]

Thanks for the info, paul_wighton in Oldham has just been emailed, thanks for the Trusted links.

Have you been to Oldham yet? If so how did you get on? I'm still not sure about the set up on my car and the further I go the more I worry about bu99ering up my new tyres.   It was all supposedly 4 wheel set but it still has a tendancy to pull slightly.

Was you given a printout? if yes can you display some figures? if no then the alignment must have been Laser, so linear and worthless for the Omega.

[Andy B]

.....

Was you given a printout? if yes can you display some figures? if no then the alignment must have been Laser, so linear and worthless for the Omega.

A four wheel linear ref'd from rears.   Looks like I should pay a visit to Oldham then.
Just to confirm -I should be asking fo a "Full Geometry/primary and Secondary" check!?

[wheels-inmotion]

.....

Was you given a printout? if yes can you display some figures? if no then the alignment must have been Laser, so linear and worthless for the Omega.

A four wheel linear ref'd from rears.   Looks like I should pay a visit to Oldham then.
Just to confirm -I should be asking fo a "Full Geometry/primary and Secondary" check!?

Very good question! All Geometries measured in the complete form will include the secondary angles, but most only measure the primary angles..... The reason is the secondary angles need a little more work to measure and a heap loads more explaining if found to be wrong.. so most avoid measuring the secondary angles although you are entitled to them on any Geometry! An indication of how complete the Geometry is would be the inclusion of the Castor angle, if this is on the report then that's a full Geometry.

[Marks DTM Calib]

Tony, is there a set of recommended settings for the Omega or are the 'factory' advised ones ok?

[TheBoy]

Mark, I know Tony adjusts it to what he finds on the car as it goes it, so I believe that tends to take into account personal driving conditions/style.

I believe, for example, my camber is right at the very edge of Vx spec to suit my car.

Also, I believe the Vx specs are 'static' and do not take into account the 'dynamic' settings.  Whilst I don't understand all the theory (all on WIM website), all I can say is the result on my MV6 was 'transformation' - both on tyre life (was eating fronts, despite many '4 wheel alignments' previosuly) and handling.

I'm sure Tony will put me right on any inaccuracies in my post...

[Andy B]

......
Very good question! All Geometries measured in the complete form will include the secondary angles, but most only measure the primary angles..... The reason is the secondary angles need a little more work to measure and a heap loads more explaining if found to be wrong.. so most avoid measuring the secondary angles although you are entitled to them on any Geometry! An indication of how complete the Geometry is would be the inclusion of the Castor angle, if this is on the report then that's a full Geometry.

Thanks for that.

[Liam]

The Dynamic range has no relevance to the operator setting the geometry. Dynamics are for mechanical engineers..... Have a read of this it may help you understand the 'Static and Dynamic' conundrum.
www.wheels-inmotion.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=213

Hmmmmm, had a read of that.  Agree with most of what you say regarding the need to go for good accuracy setting up geometry, but regarding your interpretation of the manufactures specifications, surely you are mistaken!

You say the manufacturer's 'specified range' is in fact the full dynamic range over the whole suspension travel.  I.e. the complete range of positions the suspension can take whilst moving, from full droop to full bump, in full roll and at full lock.  Well it surely isnt, and actually can't be.  The specified range is just that - the manufacturers specified static settings with an allowed tolerance either side.  For example (using the figures on the printout in your linked thread) the static camber (at laden ride height) can be set anywhere from -0.50 to +0.40 (and ideally bang in the middle) and that vehicle will operate within the manufacterers intended parameters.  If the specified range shown was in fact the full dynamic range, the 'specified range' on the machine would be well over 5 degrees on camber.  Similarly with toe - the machines will give a specified range of only about 0.10 degrees to set within, but due to toe-out-on-turns (ackerman) the dynamic range of toe is around 1.5 degrees.  Caster will have 0 dynamic range (well actually it will change a tiny amount with mcpherson strut suspension) but here the manufacturers specified range will be a good degree or so allowing for manufacturing tolerance and bush wear.

You quite rightly point out that the full dynamic range would be irrelevant to setting up static geometry - so I ask why the manufacterers would bother supplying that information and why the machines would display it?  The answer is that the specified range is not the full dynamic range, but simply the static setting with a tolerance.  Also, if the specified range was the full suspension/steering travel, it wouldn't necessarily be correct to aim for the middle of this range for the static settings (certainly not for front toe!), yet that's what you aim for when setting up geometry.

However it's all merely academic I suppose and doesn't actually effect the way you do your job (very well by all accounts).  You get cars set up bang in the middle of the specified range and even side-to-side rather than being happy as long as the settings are somewhere within the manufacturers tolerance, which is admirable pride in your work.  But the specified range is just an allowed tolerance of static settings, and the machines dont pointlessly display the whole range of the vehicles suspension/steering travel.  This might explain why you are most probably fobbed off when you "argue this fact directly with the manufacterers".

Liam

[wheels-inmotion]

Reply:- Liam

Indeed there is some confusion within the 'Specified-static-setting' range. You example the 'specified range' -0.50 to +0.40 as a target position. Also displayed there is a 'cross position' and a limit to the disparity over the axle, a combination of the two would be dire to the owner (agreed) One area withing Geometry i respect is the 'tendency' toe/camber and so on... This is highlighted by the free 'fine-tunes' done by wim... the principle is born on the fact 'NO' Geometry is final! The initial set-up will deliver an image of the cars positions.... the fine-tune can detected any need to deviate from the initial positions. So in truth the real Geometry is the second one, and for that reason it's free!

I am definitely not the law within Geometry or chassis dynamics, we all have much to learn in this field since it involves so many examples and parameters ever being expanded by new developments. What i do welcome is the chance to explore knowledge within others, this is something any car club would welcome as beneficial.... Non hostile communication is healthy do you agree?

[Markjay]

Mark, I know Tony adjusts it to what he finds on the car as it goes it, so I believe that tends to take into account personal driving conditions/style.

I believe, for example, my camber is right at the very edge of Vx spec to suit my car.

Also, I believe the Vx specs are 'static' and do not take into account the 'dynamic' settings.  Whilst I don't understand all the theory (all on WIM website), all I can say is the result on my MV6 was 'transformation' - both on tyre life (was eating fronts, despite many '4 wheel alignments' previosuly) and handling.

I'm sure Tony will put me right on any inaccuracies in my post...

Same here, my 2.6 CDX is a plessure to drive since Tony had a go at it - sharp and precise steering, and the sort of handling that makes you smile quietly when you negotiate a bend. I had the car from when it was 6 months old, and it was never like that even when new. In fact I am thinking of taking the car to him every 3-4k for checking/correcting just to make sure it stays as it is.

As for the settings, yes Tony does not like the factory defaults, he tends to use setting at the edge of specified measures, but this seem to work fine as noted above...

(and last, you can actually talk to him and he will take the time to listen to you and also to explain what he is doing... I like this about a garage, which is unlike Vx where the most qualified person you get to speak to is the guy at the parts counter, because the service receptionist no bugger-all about anything!)

[wheels-inmotion]

I honestly welcome debate regarding this topic since no one person could possibly retain all the dynamics in his head. My opinion for the Geometry positions on the Omega means nothing unless tried and tested.

Scary as it reads the manufacturers do get it wrong sometimes... Two years ago wim was approached by LOC (Lexus owners Club) desperately trying to solve front tyre wear issues for the members..... After some  dynamic/ static calculations the reason for the problem was apparent, a few cars from the club were invited to hold these new positions.... the rest is history.. In 2005 wim published the new positions (free).

The point is Geometry is not a drive by set-up, every car/ owner is unique, tolerances and dynamics in the real World are 'pants' The real deal is on the floor and the understanding of the man holding the spanner..... Oh and then the maths?