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[05omegav6]

The whole in-out debate for me boils down to two choices

1) Stay in, we are doing pretty well anyway and its the low risk approach

2) Leave, we have absolutely no idea or means to predict the consequences.

I guess it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as well but, being the risk adverse person I am.....

The unknown isn't going to be automatically worse...

Even staying in, the future is entirely unpredictable, and given the economic state of southern and eastern Europe, would it not be prudent to preempt the inevitable...

Leave now and be in control of OUR future, or wait until the ship sinks and fight, perhaps literally, for a space in the lifeboat?

Anyone who got OFF the Titanic when she stopped in Cork would have been laughed all the way back to shore. Five days later, you know they made the right choice

[Marks DTM Calib]

The whole in-out debate for me boils down to two choices

1) Stay in, we are doing pretty well anyway and its the low risk approach

2) Leave, we have absolutely no idea or means to predict the consequences.

I guess it depends a lot on your personal circumstances as well but, being the risk adverse person I am.....

The unknown isn't going to be automatically worse...

Even staying in, the future is entirely unpredictable, and given the economic state of southern and eastern Europe, would it not be prudent to preempt the inevitable...

Leave now and be in control of OUR future, or wait until the ship sinks and fight, perhaps literally, for a space in the lifeboat?

Anyone who got OFF the Titanic when she stopped in Cork would have been laughed all the way back to shore. Five days later, you know they made the right choice

Staying in you see small changes and can adjust, step out and it s step change where we have to sort ourselves (with idiots in charge no matter which party rules)

The Titanic comparison is a bit of total irrelevance 

[05omegav6]

Point I was trying to illustrate is that the brave choice isn't necessarily the wrong one

And the EU is much like a lumbering ship with noone quite in control, (plenty of people in charge... but that's not the same thing)... eventually it will hit something.

Agreed re leadership... immediate choice would be 'Call me Boris' or Lenin. Can't see how Cameron would survive a vote to leave, unfortunate as you need stable government to have any chance of going it alone...

Says it all really that the In/out argument is being debated on party lines rather than having a reasoned, united presentation about the merits and pitfalls of both staying and going, with solid contingencies for both scenarios.

The only saving grace is that if we leave, regardless of what happens here... what happens in Europe will be far worse...

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Still undecided but the 'outers' need to put up more of a fight.

Simply having 'Bonkers Boris' jumping off a bus and shouting 'take back control isn't enough'

Something more concrete is required.

 

[Sir Tigger KC]

In todays latest tranch of scaremongering, the average family holiday will be £200 more if we leave. 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

In the end it comes down to age.

The majority of young people will vote to stay.......the majority of old people will vote to leave.

Old people are more likely to vote than young people.

This means.....?

[05omegav6]

In todays latest tranch of scaremongering, the average family holiday will be £200 more if we leave. 

Still undecided but the 'outers' need to put up more of a fight.

Simply having 'Bonkers Boris' jumping off a bus and shouting 'take back control isn't enough'

Something more concrete is required.

 

Exactly...

I am not convinced that staying in the EU is the right choice but all this scaremongering offal, from both sides, does nothing to reassure me that leaving will do anything more than leave us completely Donald Ducked.

Equally staying in, on the back of a narrow vote with low turn out, will screw us over with the French and Germans

Enough bullshit soundbites already... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes, because at this rate, noone will have any idea which way to vote, and won't bother... leaving us all to suffer at the hands of the loons*, which won't end well, (think Labours third term )
 
*there are loons on both sides, who will probably vote according to either the colour of their neighbours or the headlines of whichever paper they read on the day :-(

[Kevin Wood]

... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes...

Well, that's the trick, isn't it.

Camoron was advised to make the referendum a manifesto promise in order to quash UKIP at the election.

He was told that the "In" vote would be a dead certainty, so he has no plan for an "Out" vote. Doesn't need one.

Resignation would be his best plan in that scenario, IMHO. Doesn't leave us with a credible leader, but we haven't got one now, nor one in waiting, anyway.

It's true that we aren't doing too bad with the status quo.

I'm not sure an "In" vote is a vote for the status quo, however.

Brussels is largely a collection of unaccountable, unelected,  frustrated ex-politicians who failed at the national level and then got a ride on the gravy train. Their agenda is a constant expansion of their empire and eventually a European state.

An "In" vote would be seen as a vindication of their position with respect to the UK. I suspect we would be increasingly marginalised and lose influence from there on in, if we continue our current course of being in the EU but not the euro nor part of the inevitable "State" that will be required to stop the euro failing.

I'm sure we're in for a world of pain if we vote "Out", in the short term, but it may just be time to swallow that particular pill.

A few countries voting with their feet, led by the UK, may be enough to cause the whole house of cards to fall down and it can then be scaled back to a common market again and kept there, as it always should have been.

[Sir Tigger KC]

If the 'Establishment' is urging us to take a course of action then it should be everyone's duty to do exactly the opposite! 

[05omegav6]

If the 'Establishment' is urging us to take a course of action then it should be everyone's duty to do exactly the opposite! 

They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.

What I want to know is whether the lights will stay on and that the system will continue, by and large, unaffected if we all vote Out

It would be naive to think that it would all be plane sailing, but some basic reassurance would go along way...

In some respects, it was a shame that Scotland didn't vote for independence,  as at least that would have given us an idea of some of the issues we might face...

[Mister Rog]

... can we please have be told what our elected leaders actually plan to do regardless of how the vote goes...

Well, that's the trick, isn't it.

Camoron was advised to make the referendum a manifesto promise in order to quash UKIP at the election.

He was told that the "In" vote would be a dead certainty, so he has no plan for an "Out" vote. Doesn't need one.

Resignation would be his best plan in that scenario, IMHO. Doesn't leave us with a credible leader, but we haven't got one now, nor one in waiting, anyway.

It's true that we aren't doing too bad with the status quo.

I'm not sure an "In" vote is a vote for the status quo, however.

Brussels is largely a collection of unaccountable, unelected,  frustrated ex-politicians who failed at the national level and then got a ride on the gravy train. Their agenda is a constant expansion of their empire and eventually a European state.

An "In" vote would be seen as a vindication of their position with respect to the UK. I suspect we would be increasingly marginalised and lose influence from there on in, if we continue our current course of being in the EU but not the euro nor part of the inevitable "State" that will be required to stop the euro failing.

I'm sure we're in for a world of pain if we vote "Out", in the short term, but it may just be time to swallow that particular pill.

A few countries voting with their feet, led by the UK, may be enough to cause the whole house of cards to fall down and it can then be scaled back to a common market again and kept there, as it always should have been.

Yep. I'll go with pretty much all of that   

My tuppence worth . . . .

Firstly I am torn as I do business with France ( I import wine  ), so I have a somewhat vested interest in "Stay", however I personally lean towards "Leave"  . . . . . . errr  I think, sort-of ish, maybe

However, if you vote "Stay"
Don't complain when Brussels dictates what a sausage or a chocolate bar should be
When other countries are admitted to "The Club" and more cheap labour arrives
When citizens of other members clog up the roads and hospital waiting rooms
You get the picture

If you vote "Leave"
Don't complain when stuff from EU costs more
Going to EU on hols becomes less easy
Who knows what will happen to the € - £ Exchange rate ?
When some international companies may relocate

Add to the above lists as seems appropriate 

I wish I knew the answer, or even how I will be voting. 

One thing is certain David Cameron surely regrets promising a referendum     

[Kevin Wood]

They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.

The very fact that such stories are being run is telling of how we're being patronised, though.

[Varche]

I feel quite let down by the whole referendum thing.

A thinking caring EU would have recognised the feelings of a significant number of its people and adapted. Changed to suit the needs of the people. The fact that it didn't and that Cameron called a referendum is really a disaster.

If we come out I personally feel that life won't end, trade will continue. It will however require real leadership to keep the boat sailing well. It will take years to achieve.

If we stay in , my gut feeling is that we will be put on the naughty step for having had the temerity to have a referendum (and fail). Quite what that naughty step will look like I don't know. It will also more importantly be a green light for "more Europe". Other countries won't feel emboldened to follow suit with their own referendum.

Then there is the small issue of how divisive the campaign has been to mainly the Tories. Will they ever be united again? If there is an out vote will Remain camp MPs ever serve in the cabinet?

perhaps we should be more worried about the rise and rise of the far right. We had a narrow escape in Austria. Is the EU causing this swing to the right or acting as a bulwark?

I am also concerned about the top level stuff the EU is doing. Sure they have propaganda pages on the web for all the (mostly) good touchy feely stuff they do but nowhere does it mention allowing Germany to declare Europe open to 6 figures worth of mostly undocumented migrants/refugees. Nowhere will it mention offering visas in return for handling returned migrants and clamping down on people trafficers. Junkers blunders from one crisis to another and Schultz (a president of the EU) openly admits they are a mess.

The whole thing is like a horror film.

[Shackeng]

My reply to my MP asking me to vote Stay;

Dear ....,

When my wife and I voted to join the Common Market back in the '70's, we were told by the politicians of the day that we would be joining a trading block. We were not told at the time, although it has subsequently become clear, that the unspoken intention was to join an organisation that would eventually become a federal state.
I have no wish to be part of a federal state, thus eventually losing rights to control many of the things we currently hold dear, and rendering Parliament a mere cypher, required to rubber stamp laws made in Brussels - or is it Strasbourg, I always forget where they are - and eventually our once great nation will be completely subsumed into a greater European State.

Having carefully read through the re-negotiation with the EU recently concluded by the Prime Minister, I am afraid that I am completely underwhelmed by the results. I assume that you have also read through the detailed analysis, and I am surprised that you are prepared to accept the numerous 'ifs', 'requests', percentages, etc., with which the documents are littered, as being a definitive and satisfactory conclusion to the negotiations. Had the Prime Minister returned with a realistic re-negotiation of our membership, I may have been persuaded to vote remain, but as he merely returned with a piece of paper, with "a new deal in our time" which was less than convincing, I am afraid that I can only hope that we get off this train to federation now, while we still have the chance.

Many arguments are put forward along the lines of "The EU has given us this or that, or done this or that", yet no evidence is proposed that such matters could or would not have taken place had we not been members of the EU. Increasingly, all countries are subject to global imperatives, relating, for example, to human rights, global warming, etc., and I am confident that we will act on such pressures whether inside or outside the EU.

Incidentally, it is edifying to note that the Government's Remain campaign is almost entirely negative in tone, could this possibly be that they find it difficult to say anything positive?

Yours sincerely

[05omegav6]

They aren't even urging us... noone gives a monkeys left gonad if holidays do or don't rise by £200, and if the holiday already costs £3,000, what's another £200.

The very fact that such stories are being run is telling of how we're being patronised, though.

That is arguably a media issue... they thrive on sound bites, so that's what the politicians give them. Trouble is, noone bothers the either follow up the sound bites with valid and pertinent questions, equally the politicians don't seem to be pushing the message behind the sound bites so all we're left with is Boris jumping out of buses and the other side saying the world will end

The holiday sound bite being a case in point... the price of a holiday might go up £40-50 per person... How? Why?

If it then transpired that in order to pay for its next bail out, Brussels makes Spain/Greece tax every foreign/non EU visitor €65 to repay the 'loan', then actually that price rise is justified. People can then make an informed decision as to whether they go to Spain/Greece or choose to holiday here, which in turn will help bolster the UK economy... making the issue somewhat moot.

There are an equal number of legitimate reasons for staying in and for leaving. Personally, I am leaning towards leaving, but it would be nice to have some concerted reassurance that we will still have a working government should the day come