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Author Topic: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So  (Read 4577 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« on: 02 September 2019, 14:32:25 »

I have noted the comments about the police and my faith in them in the thread by Dave who had his Omega rammed, so now, after saying what I did in that thread, I now state I know what the actual situation is, and why some of you think "the police are useless".

It is not the individual police officer that is useless, but the justice system that is "broken", as described by one blunt Chief Constable. The Police Service has been stretched to beyond breaking point by government cuts that you, me and everyone else has allowed the politicians to do. Cutting 20,000 from their number after 2010 was always going to have this effect, and the recent decision to reverse that is a step in the right direction, but in reality, with society now being more violent and crime ridden, with diminished respect of the police and physical attacks on them causing higher number of absences from work, we, society, require far more officers.  It will be at least two years before those now in training can become fully effective officers upholding the law, protecting the public, and gaining experience with maturity.

The average officer I meet is "doing the job" to the best of their ability, but their morale and confidence has been badly knocked and they are so often frustrated that their lack of physical numbers and time inhibit them from fully achieving what they are not only paid to do, but excelling to the level their professional pride is screaming out for.

The CPS and the rest of the judiciary does not help as the frequently few officers tackle serious crime, and after reams of form filling, interviewing witnesses and suspects, with the taking of multiple statements, leads to a decision of the CPS wishing to take the case no further, or downgrading the possible charges to allow for a more certain positive court outcome, or deciding there is "insufficient evidence for charging".  That is a decision based on the risky nature, from the point of view of the CPS, of taking a matter to court and incurring costs - yes that is in itself a major factor.

One case I was advising the police on involved highlighted this "sensitivity" to risk. I cannot give full details of course, but in essence it was:
An alleged mass attack on a house and 4 people, with two children, by  a group of women, who allegedly (to all): physically assaulted two men, including sexual assault, one with learning difficulties;  caused criminal damage to property; threatened a 6 year old child with physical harm, including a threat to "kill";  general committing of "hate crime" over one persons sexual orientation (which was a false assumption); verbal threats to "fire bomb" the house, and general criminal disorder with breaches of the peace, all following previously alleged on-going acts of harassment and incitements to cause acts of violence, which, allegedly continued after the main incident.  The main attack was witnessed by a large number of people, including independent observers.

The outcome after months of police work, and much personal effort by one PC, and his DI, with me constantly communicating and advising between all parties, was a decision by the CPS to not press charges as at court there could well be a fatal element to legal proceedings as one adult witness, who was one physically assaulted, including a sexual element, and has learning difficulties, was hesitating over his original identification of a suspect, although positive identification had been confirmed by other witnesses. The risk of him faltering in the witness box was considered too great.  Another major flaw was that the police had taken too long to bring the case to the stage of pressing charges!

The system had also destroyed this case from the start, as when this incident was transpiring numerous 999 calls were made, but due to a mistake in the grading of the call and a lack of police resource at that time, a Sunday afternoon, it was not until 2 hours plus that officers arrived on the scene, by which time the alleged committing of offences was over. The police therefore could not identify the suspects, and relied on the victims statements. The officers did carryout door to door enquiries, entering a particularly key property to the affair, but any suspects had disappeared.

For me this case highlighted so clearly how the police are so handicapped from being able to enforce the law and bring about justice, due to the politicians. The PC's involved, and the DI, although very professional in their reactions after this case had been dropped, even though with the latter's support I was able to advise the main victim to lodge an appeal of the decision with the CPS, they were not happy.  In fact one said he was "gutted" and angry.  That is what is letting our police down, and causing them to question why they carry on.  It must change, and change as quickly as humanly possible.

Much higher, fully enforced, sentences for anyone who assaults, let alone worse, any emergency worker, must be a matter of urgency.  As I mentioned before, the benefit of higher numbers of police officers will take at least two years. :(
« Last Edit: 02 September 2019, 14:41:47 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #1 on: 02 September 2019, 15:14:45 »

I got bored after the "I have noted..." bit.
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Olympia5776

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #2 on: 02 September 2019, 15:16:23 »

I have noted the comments about the police and my faith in them in the thread by Dave who had his Omega rammed, so now, after saying what I did in that thread, I now state I know what the actual situation is, and why some of you think "the police are useless".

It is not the individual police officer that is useless, but the justice system that is "broken", as described by one blunt Chief Constable. The Police Service has been stretched to beyond breaking point by government cuts that you, me and everyone else has allowed the politicians to do. Cutting 20,000 from their number after 2010 was always going to have this effect, and the recent decision to reverse that is a step in the right direction, but in reality, with society now being more violent and crime ridden, with diminished respect of the police and physical attacks on them causing higher number of absences from work, we, society, require far more officers.  It will be at least two years before those now in training can become fully effective officers upholding the law, protecting the public, and gaining experience with maturity.

The average officer I meet is "doing the job" to the best of their ability, but their morale and confidence has been badly knocked and they are so often frustrated that their lack of physical numbers and time inhibit them from fully achieving what they are not only paid to do, but excelling to the level their professional pride is screaming out for.

The CPS and the rest of the judiciary does not help as the frequently few officers tackle serious crime, and after reams of form filling, interviewing witnesses and suspects, with the taking of multiple statements, leads to a decision of the CPS wishing to take the case no further, or downgrading the possible charges to allow for a more certain positive court outcome, or deciding there is "insufficient evidence for charging".  That is a decision based on the risky nature, from the point of view of the CPS, of taking a matter to court and incurring costs - yes that is in itself a major factor.

One case I was advising the police on involved highlighted this "sensitivity" to risk. I cannot give full details of course, but in essence it was:
An alleged mass attack on a house and 4 people, with two children, by  a group of women, who allegedly (to all): physically assaulted two men, including sexual assault, one with learning difficulties;  caused criminal damage to property; threatened a 6 year old child with physical harm, including a threat to "kill";  general committing of "hate crime" over one persons sexual orientation (which was a false assumption); verbal threats to "fire bomb" the house, and general criminal disorder with breaches of the peace, all following previously alleged on-going acts of harassment and incitements to cause acts of violence, which, allegedly continued after the main incident.  The main attack was witnessed by a large number of people, including independent observers.

The outcome after months of police work, and much personal effort by one PC, and his DI, with me constantly communicating and advising between all parties, was a decision by the CPS to not press charges as at court there could well be a fatal element to legal proceedings as one adult witness, who was one physically assaulted, including a sexual element, and has learning difficulties, was hesitating over his original identification of a suspect, although positive identification had been confirmed by other witnesses. The risk of him faltering in the witness box was considered too great.  Another major flaw was that the police had taken too long to bring the case to the stage of pressing charges!

The system had also destroyed this case from the start, as when this incident was transpiring numerous 999 calls were made, but due to a mistake in the grading of the call and a lack of police resource at that time, a Sunday afternoon, it was not until 2 hours plus that officers arrived on the scene, by which time the alleged committing of offences was over. The police therefore could not identify the suspects, and relied on the victims statements. The officers did carryout door to door enquiries, entering a particularly key property to the affair, but any suspects had disappeared.

For me this case highlighted so clearly how the police are so handicapped from being able to enforce the law and bring about justice, due to the politicians. The PC's involved, and the DI, although very professional in their reactions after this case had been dropped, even though with the latter's support I was able to advise the main victim to lodge an appeal of the decision with the CPS, they were not happy.  In fact one said he was "gutted" and angry.  That is what is letting our police down, and causing them to question why they carry on.  It must change, and change as quickly as humanly possible.

Much higher, fully enforced, sentences for anyone who assaults, let alone worse, any emergency worker, must be a matter of urgency.  As I mentioned before, the benefit of higher numbers of police officers will take at least two years. :(

I thought you were a shopkeeper......
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #3 on: 02 September 2019, 15:29:39 »

I have noted the comments about the police and my faith in them in the thread by Dave who had his Omega rammed, so now, after saying what I did in that thread, I now state I know what the actual situation is, and why some of you think "the police are useless".

It is not the individual police officer that is useless, but the justice system that is "broken", as described by one blunt Chief Constable. The Police Service has been stretched to beyond breaking point by government cuts that you, me and everyone else has allowed the politicians to do. Cutting 20,000 from their number after 2010 was always going to have this effect, and the recent decision to reverse that is a step in the right direction, but in reality, with society now being more violent and crime ridden, with diminished respect of the police and physical attacks on them causing higher number of absences from work, we, society, require far more officers.  It will be at least two years before those now in training can become fully effective officers upholding the law, protecting the public, and gaining experience with maturity.

The average officer I meet is "doing the job" to the best of their ability, but their morale and confidence has been badly knocked and they are so often frustrated that their lack of physical numbers and time inhibit them from fully achieving what they are not only paid to do, but excelling to the level their professional pride is screaming out for.

The CPS and the rest of the judiciary does not help as the frequently few officers tackle serious crime, and after reams of form filling, interviewing witnesses and suspects, with the taking of multiple statements, leads to a decision of the CPS wishing to take the case no further, or downgrading the possible charges to allow for a more certain positive court outcome, or deciding there is "insufficient evidence for charging".  That is a decision based on the risky nature, from the point of view of the CPS, of taking a matter to court and incurring costs - yes that is in itself a major factor.

One case I was advising the police on involved highlighted this "sensitivity" to risk. I cannot give full details of course, but in essence it was:
An alleged mass attack on a house and 4 people, with two children, by  a group of women, who allegedly (to all): physically assaulted two men, including sexual assault, one with learning difficulties;  caused criminal damage to property; threatened a 6 year old child with physical harm, including a threat to "kill";  general committing of "hate crime" over one persons sexual orientation (which was a false assumption); verbal threats to "fire bomb" the house, and general criminal disorder with breaches of the peace, all following previously alleged on-going acts of harassment and incitements to cause acts of violence, which, allegedly continued after the main incident.  The main attack was witnessed by a large number of people, including independent observers.

The outcome after months of police work, and much personal effort by one PC, and his DI, with me constantly communicating and advising between all parties, was a decision by the CPS to not press charges as at court there could well be a fatal element to legal proceedings as one adult witness, who was one physically assaulted, including a sexual element, and has learning difficulties, was hesitating over his original identification of a suspect, although positive identification had been confirmed by other witnesses. The risk of him faltering in the witness box was considered too great.  Another major flaw was that the police had taken too long to bring the case to the stage of pressing charges!

The system had also destroyed this case from the start, as when this incident was transpiring numerous 999 calls were made, but due to a mistake in the grading of the call and a lack of police resource at that time, a Sunday afternoon, it was not until 2 hours plus that officers arrived on the scene, by which time the alleged committing of offences was over. The police therefore could not identify the suspects, and relied on the victims statements. The officers did carryout door to door enquiries, entering a particularly key property to the affair, but any suspects had disappeared.

For me this case highlighted so clearly how the police are so handicapped from being able to enforce the law and bring about justice, due to the politicians. The PC's involved, and the DI, although very professional in their reactions after this case had been dropped, even though with the latter's support I was able to advise the main victim to lodge an appeal of the decision with the CPS, they were not happy.  In fact one said he was "gutted" and angry.  That is what is letting our police down, and causing them to question why they carry on.  It must change, and change as quickly as humanly possible.

Much higher, fully enforced, sentences for anyone who assaults, let alone worse, any emergency worker, must be a matter of urgency.  As I mentioned before, the benefit of higher numbers of police officers will take at least two years. :(

I thought you were a shopkeeper......

No, never purely a  "shopkeeper", as I had many functions, and wore many hats, during my professional career including investigating crime and bringing about many prosecutions, working with the police and retired senior police officers within our ranks, with a number of people ending up with lengthy prison sentences. That is in the past, and now I just "advise" in a special capacity as a civilian. :D :D ;)
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #4 on: 02 September 2019, 15:31:04 »

I got bored after the "I have noted..." bit.

Fair enough! ;D ;)
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #5 on: 02 September 2019, 15:43:55 »

So rhere are two key problems.

1. Politicians and people spent and borrowed too much and had to cut back on spend . Police was an easy target.

2. The CPS doesnt have the resources to tackle none water tight cases


Maybe society has become too liberal and has created a police/justice system that reflects that. A bit like the TV programmes that show outrageous and totally unacceptable behaviour ( like taking a car and having a ten mile high speed chase ) and being rewarded by just a reprimand.
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #6 on: 02 September 2019, 15:55:25 »

I have noted the comments about the police and my faith in them in the thread by Dave who had his Omega rammed, so now, after saying what I did in that thread, I now state I know what the actual situation is, and why some of you think "the police are useless".

Why I think the police are useless when it comes to RTA-type matters is based firmly in my own direct experience. As a student in my early 20's my car was hit and run whilst parked in a car park, directly in front of a CCTV camera - I had parked it there, in my naivety for the protection I thought it would offer me.

I reported the incident to Thames Valley plod, including: location, time (2hr window), car park operator, camera location relative to my car, car details etc etc. I received a lovely letter back from them not more than 48hrs later stating that I needed to contact my insurance company and no investigative action would be taken as there was little chance of identifying the other party. Not that they had looked and couldn't but that they weren't going to bother.

However, the same police force were more than generous enough to pull me over on my way home (during daylight I hasten to add) and issue me with a fine for the broken headlight, the cause of which they couldn't be ar$ed to investigate.  ::)

So, in my direct experience, the police are only interested in Road Traffic if it involves on-the-spot revenue generation. And before you offer up any guff about overstretched resources; this was in the early 2000's when Blair and Brown were busy swelling all areas of public services to unsustainably fat levels. I have no doubt things have got worse since.
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #7 on: 02 September 2019, 16:52:35 »

I had an elderly aunt who was burgled about 25 years ago.

Not only did the vermin completely trash the place they also thought it would be entertaining to smear there own shit about the place along with their urine.

.......and what of the police?

Didn't even attend as it was not considered important enough. If memory serves there was an incident number that was duly filed in the CBA section. It is probably still there with a coffee ring on it. :-\

The poor old lady refused to go back to her house of about 50 years. The incident broke her, and she died shortly after.

But hey......the police probably nicked somebody for driving at 35 MPH in a 30 MPH limit, so every cloud....... :-X :-\
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #8 on: 02 September 2019, 17:21:25 »

Just some facts to consider:

                                  Year           Police Numbers          UK Population (million)
                                  2000               138,000                  58.68
                                  2003               155,000                  59.64
                                  2010               171,600                  62.76
                                  2019               150,000                  67.59

Tells a story, but I will say no more!! :-X :-X ;)
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #9 on: 02 September 2019, 17:23:55 »

Cheif Constables are very quick to blame everyone else for their short comings. This isn't specifically a public sector management style, but the public sector does have it honed to an art form.
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #10 on: 02 September 2019, 17:28:30 »

Just some facts to consider:

                                  Year           Police Numbers          UK Population (million)
                                  2000               138,000                  58.68
                                  2003               155,000                  59.64
                                  2010               171,600                  62.76
                                  2019               150,000                  67.59

Tells a story, but I will say no more!! :-X :-X ;)

I find it more alarming that there are 10 million more people living on this small island than there were 20 years ago.  :-\
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #11 on: 02 September 2019, 17:28:35 »

Cheif Constables are very quick to blame everyone else for their short comings. This isn't specifically a public sector management style, but the public sector does have it honed to an art form.

Oh yes, they could do better, and hopefully with greater numbers, and many chief's retiring, things will change.  They are aware of the public's perception of the whole police service, and know they must do a lot better! ;)
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #12 on: 02 September 2019, 17:28:59 »

Just some facts to consider:

                                  Year           Police Numbers          UK Population (million)
                                  2000               138,000                  58.68
                                  2003               155,000                  59.64
                                  2010               171,600                  62.76
                                  2019               150,000                  67.59

Tells a story, but I will say no more!! :-X :-X ;)
Nothing in those figures that nearly fifteen years of labour government and a global recession can't explain. Although a significant increase in certain crimes only serves to highlight the problem.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #13 on: 02 September 2019, 17:31:16 »

Just some facts to consider:

                                  Year           Police Numbers          UK Population (million)
                                  2000               138,000                  58.68
                                  2003               155,000                  59.64
                                  2010               171,600                  62.76
                                  2019               150,000                  67.59

Tells a story, but I will say no more!! :-X :-X ;)

I find it more alarming that there are 10 million more people living on this small island than there were 20 years ago.  :-\

Well Jimmy944 correctly touched on that reason; Blair's open borders policy, especially from Eastern Europe.

Funny how many "Polish", "Romanian" or others from that area are found to be involved in crime, and that certainly has helped no one! ::) ::) :-X

Sorry, as DG was typing I was typing this, and he beat me to it! ;D ;D ;)
« Last Edit: 02 September 2019, 17:33:15 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: Police Are "Useless" - Reasons Why The Public Think So
« Reply #14 on: 02 September 2019, 17:40:24 »

Indeed, add to that his 'everyone should go to university' policy which completely devalued any career choice that didn't involve 3yrs in lecture theatres / drinking establishments (delete as appropriate) and we fast became a nation stuffed with useless degrees and certificates in doing each other's hair and nails but deficient in the core trades.

Hence we needed those immigrants, just to make the nation function  ::)
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