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Author Topic: Thinking about the Kit Car (V6 - inspired by Wheeler's Workshop)  (Read 2820 times)

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Viral_Jim

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Afternoon all, seeing Nick and friend's very tidy MGB V6 install, and the similarly good looking Scimitar install got me thinking about what to do with my kit car. The more I think about it, the less happy I am with the majority of the bits that are on it. Currently its sitting on Cortina running gear with a Fiat 2.0 twin cam & manual box out of a supermirafiori. I don't want to put in a rover v8  boat anchor  in there, nor do I want to spend the kind of money Aaron is doing to build a fire breathing monster. Hardly a good idea on the base kit I have anyway, evein If I did want to go down that route.

So I got to thinking about the V6 options, potentially either a manual s-type 3.0, or the VX 3.2. I'd potentially also use the donor to get me disc brakes all round and a handbrake that.... well... works  :y

The Jaguar option is a bit more plug and play, with an already mated 5 speed manual, and aftermarket throttle bodies, ecu and loom all available courtesy of the MX-5 modding brigade. It would also have a bit more poke at around 250 vs circa 210 for the VX variant. But it would also be more costly, and tbh anything at or around 200+bhp/tonne ought to be enough poke to get it off the drive.  8)

So, the VX option, I had a few questions I was hoping the collective could answer...
  • I know the Desmond in the omega is different to the 2.2 that appears in the Vectrum, is this true of the 3.2s, or are they all the same?
  • Obviously the gearboxes are different as other applications for the 3.2 are either WWD or 4WD, but will an R25-28 box bolt straight up or a 3.2 that's been used in a different drivetrain?
  • I understand that the 3.0s have throttle bodies whereas the 3.2s use a form of DBW, are the 3.0 TBs a bolt on swap, and how readily available/expensive are they?
  • Has anyone who's done such a conversion used a third party ECU, or can you use a 3.0 (and are these readily available? I haven't seen (m)any pfl v6 cars for sale)
  • Probably one for a PM to Nick W but... If using a VX ECU, how much of the original loom/immobiliser/other modules need to be retained to get it to function?

Apologies for all the questions, I'm only starting to get my head round it as a potential project and there's not a lot on the 'net that I can find about using the 3.2.

Cheers. 
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Doctor Gollum

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You can fit the 2.6/3.2 with the 2.5/3.0 engine management including wiring, cabled throttle and ecu(chipped if required)  ;)

For discs, if running Cortina 4/5 rear axle, is there a Sierra r Focus disc conversion? Certainly there's a Focus mod for the Sierra  ;)

Vectrum 3.2 is the same block, but different manifolds.

The Desmond lump from the Omega can have either a supercharger (Saturn Ion etc) or turbo (Astra G) fitted, so there's that... Possibly better chances of getting a manual too ;)

Or Cosworth BDA 24v lump. Similar power to the Omega V6. Which is nice. Will also fit your current gearbox  ;)
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Viral_Jim

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I'm not sure on the focus kit tbh. But, I do know there is one for the Mondeo (hence my thinking of using the S-type as I believe there are a number of shared components  :y).

Good to know that the 3.0 stuff can be retrofitted (forwad-fitted?) Onto the 3.2. I'd rather not a)wait around for a pfl and then send it immediately to the scrappers after pilfering it's motor  ;).

I did consider a blower on the existing 4 pot as they are readily available and there's quite a community out there that supports them, in many ways it would be the path of least resistance, but I wanted something with more low down shove, less of a screamer. The 2.9 Cossie would be an interesting option, not sure how many/few are about  :-\
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Doctor Gollum

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Viral_Jim

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Well whaddya know!

Re the 3.2,  any idea how hard it would be to come by the inlet manifols and the 3.0 throttle body setup?

I know some things on omegas are getting hard to get and I don't want to paint myself into a corner in the future.
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Doctor Gollum

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All v6 omega manifolds would fit.

For the Vectrum V6 you would need the plenum (preferably 2.6/3.2 as no egr/sai) and exhaust manifolds. I believe the sandwich plate and lower inlet are the same as the Omega ones  :y
« Last Edit: 14 July 2020, 19:54:02 by Doctor Gollum »
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Nick W

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Ian considered a Jag V6 for his MGB, but they have serious issues when used in a small car: they don't fit! The sump, oil pump, belt drives, inlet and exhaust manifolds, cylinder heads etc all cause problems which aren't easy to fix. They're not cheap either.


The X30 we used needed a rear drop sump(from a Vectra/Saab, cost about £70) and oil pickup to lose the awkward Omega wide, front sump. That's a bolt-on using sealant as a gasket. The water rail from the back of the engine to the radiator is bulky, so we made a tighter fitting one from stainless tube and bends. You could use steel, but small bore tube and tight bends are easier and cheaper to find in stainless. We Tig welded most of these parts because it was available, but a decent Mig with stainless wire works OK if you're not going to polish the parts.


We only made new exhaust manifolds because none of OE ones fit the MGB's chassis rails or bulkhead; wider or lower chassis would allow use of either FWD or RWD.


Motronic management is older and simpler than the Jag and is much easier to retrofit, especially if you haven't butchered the inlet!


Gearboxes are similar. The Omega hydraulic clutch is standard and works with the MGB pedal/master cylinder. That's normal, clutch slave cylinders barely move.


I should mention that even with the multirams fitted, there's a bigger gap between them and the radiator than the MGB engine and rad. The back of the engines are within a few mm of the same location.
« Last Edit: 14 July 2020, 20:20:14 by Nick W »
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Kevin Wood

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I think I would be going for a 3.2 (forged bottom end), maybe fitting 2.5 cylinder heads (more compression - but do your sums and make sure it's not too much!) then fitting a 2.5 / 3.0 non DBW throttle body and Megasquirt engine management. You're going to be messing about with it all anyway, so might as well have something you can tune properly.

A non-Omega gearbox option would be good, as I suspect Omega manual ratios would be pretty tiresome on a lightweight kit car.

Nice project. :y
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456lbft

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You only need 1...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-granada-cosworth-2-9-v6-auto-complete-engine-/274424197155 :y
A great engine (developed in Northamptonshire, like all great engines) but 75deg V-angle instead of the narrower GM Y32SE which is unusually narrow at 57deg IIRC. Which makes packaging of exhaust manifolds much easier.  S-type/Mondeo engine's also a corker, and available cheaply and lighter than the other too (Ali block)
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Nick W

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You only need 1...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-granada-cosworth-2-9-v6-auto-complete-engine-/274424197155 :y
A great engine (developed in Northamptonshire, like all great engines) but 75deg V-angle instead of the narrower GM Y32SE which is unusually narrow at 57deg IIRC. Which makes packaging of exhaust manifolds much easier.  S-type/Mondeo engine's also a corker, and available cheaply and lighter than the other too (Ali block)


The 24v Granada engine was actually designed by Hart as a race engine, but Ford had Cosworth develop it into a torquey road motor.
It's a stock Cologne block(entire bottom end), so it has the geometrically correct(for a V6) 60deg V angle. The GM engine is 57deg to make it fit FWD installations better.
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Kevin Wood

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The GM engine is 5754deg to make it fit FWD installations better.
FTFY  :y
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456lbft

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You only need 1...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-granada-cosworth-2-9-v6-auto-complete-engine-/274424197155 :y
A great engine (developed in Northamptonshire, like all great engines) but 75deg V-angle instead of the narrower GM Y32SE which is unusually narrow at 57deg IIRC. Which makes packaging of exhaust manifolds much easier.  S-type/Mondeo engine's also a corker, and available cheaply and lighter than the other too (Ali block)


The 24v Granada engine was actually designed by Hart as a race engine, but Ford had Cosworth develop it into a torquey road motor.
It's a stock Cologne block(entire bottom end), so it has the geometrically correct(for a V6) 60deg V angle. The GM engine is 57deg to make it fit FWD installations better.
Strictly speaking I think a V6 should be 120deg (60deg is right for a V12), but nobody is going to make that fit anything!
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Doctor Gollum

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60° v6 is perfectly balanced. A sixth of a crank rotation for each piston stroke ;)

The v6 on the barge is 90° and as a direct consequence, eats engine mounts. Flip side is that it is wide enough to drop in a supercharger without maling it any taller. Which is nice 8)
« Last Edit: 14 July 2020, 21:18:48 by Doctor Gollum »
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456lbft

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60° v6 is perfectly balanced. A sixth of a crank rotation for each piston stroke ;)
In it's true self contradictory way wiki says-
A V-angle of 60 degrees is the optimal configuration for V6 engines regarding engine balance.[3] When individual crank pins are used for each cylinder (i.e. using a six-throw crankshaft), an even firing interval of 120 degrees can be used. This firing interval is a multiple of the 60 degree V-angle, therefore the combustion forces can be balanced through use of the appropriate firing order.
The inline-three engine that forms each cylinder bank, however, produces unbalanced rotating and reciprocal forces. These forces remain unbalanced in all V6 engines, often leading to the use of a balance shaft to reduce the vibration.
Also from elsewhere on the web of lies-
And there’s an equation to help determine which configurations will work best. In a four-stroke engine, an individual piston fires every 720 degrees (two crankshaft rotations). If you divide that by the number of cylinders, you get a figure that represents the optimal degrees of crankshaft rotation between cylinder firings.
For example, a four-cylinder would like to fire at every 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation (720/4=180). Having firing events that occur in equal increments, as in this instance, is best for balance. The flat-four fires at 180-degree intervals, and its V angle is 180 degrees, which leads to a balance of firing forces. The flat-four, in fact, balances all three of the different types of forces.
A cross-plane, 90-degree V-8 has balanced rotational and reciprocating forces because it is a lot like four of the balanced 90-degree V-2s shown in the aforementioned illustration. To balance the firing force, a cylinder has to fire every time the crankshaft rotates 90 degrees. Since the bank angle is 90 degrees and the firing forces occur in 90-degree intervals, the cross-plane V-8 also manages to balance all three of the forces.
A 60-degree V-6 engine isn’t quite as successful. The rotational and reciprocating forces can’t be completely balanced because this type of V-6 is essentially two three-cylinder engines stuck together. Inline-three engines, because of their odd number of cylinders, are inherently imbalanced and will tend to rock from end to end. A flat-six engine ­manages to ­cancel the rocking because the opposing banks exactly cancel out each other’s motions. Putting two inline-threes together, end to end, to form an inline-six also works because each three-cylinder end of the engine exactly cancels the forces of the other. And since it’s basically two straight sixes joined at a common crank, the V-12 is naturally balanced regardless of its V angle.

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Doctor Gollum

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You could just as easily argue the point the the more cylinders an engine has, the smoother it will be, regardless of layout, as there is less rotational distance between each ignition point in the cycle.

Which is why we have round wheels rather than square ones, even though square wheels actually work over a certain rpm :D
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