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[Doctor Gollum]

As long as people allow themselves, or actively choose to be categorised by the colour of their skin, then they will always be underrepresented in society as a whole.

If a person choses to be defined by the colour of their skin, then that's on them. And nothing anyone says or does is likely to positively influence any misunderstanding around that.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Hard to take that view though when people are doing monkey chants at you, and throwing bananas, because of the colour of your skin.

[STEMO]

As long as people allow themselves, or actively choose to be categorised by the colour of their skin, then they will always be underrepresented in society as a whole.

If a person choses to be defined by the colour of their skin, then that's on them. And nothing anyone says or does is likely to positively influence any misunderstanding around that.

Hmmmm...that's one point of view, I suppose. But, coming from someone who's never had to give the colour of their skin a second thought, it's maybe a one sided point of view. Even if a person decides not to be defined by the colour of their skin, their going to be pretty disappointed if everyone else defines them that way.

[Migalot]

Hard to take that view though when people are doing monkey chants at you, and throwing bananas, because of the colour of your skin.

Remember, though, that was in Spain. Here in the UK we have, until now I suspect, had the best record of race relations anywhere in Europe. So, when BLM march through London and try to trash statues and monuments, they are setting race relations back by a generation at least, IMHO.

I would respect Hamilton far more if he kept his mouth shut about statues and instead pushed the fact that, here in the UK, he was able to rise to the top – a trailblazer if you will...

...and as commented elsewhere, the fact that he drives a Mercedes and advertises Hugo Boss, yet has not criticised them so far, creates an air of hypocrisy.

   

[Doctor Gollum]

As long as people allow themselves, or actively choose to be categorised by the colour of their skin, then they will always be underrepresented in society as a whole.

If a person choses to be defined by the colour of their skin, then that's on them. And nothing anyone says or does is likely to positively influence any misunderstanding around that.

Hmmmm...that's one point of view, I suppose. But, coming from someone who's never had to give the colour of their skin a second thought, it's maybe a one sided point of view. Even if a person decides not to be defined by the colour of their skin, their going to be pretty disappointed if everyone else defines them that way.

That's my point, it only matters if that's how society defines people. Don't forget, the African tribes were just as happy to sell slaves to the traders as the land owners were to buy them.

Individually, how you are perceived is defined entirely by how you project yourself. That is a universal truth, that only the individual has any control over, afterall, you become who you hang around with.

[Doctor Gollum]

For example, if Lewis said nothing, and became known for actively doing charity work, then he would be genuinely present as a talented driver who was also actually a decent chap.

Instead, inspite of being talented, he presents as a bit of a knob.

[jimbobmccoy]

As long as people allow themselves, or actively choose to be categorised by the colour of their skin, then they will always be underrepresented in society as a whole.

If a person choses to be defined by the colour of their skin, then that's on them. And nothing anyone says or does is likely to positively influence any misunderstanding around that.

Hmmmm...that's one point of view, I suppose. But, coming from someone who's never had to give the colour of their skin a second thought, it's maybe a one sided point of view. Even if a person decides not to be defined by the colour of their skin, their going to be pretty disappointed if everyone else defines them that way.

Hmmmm...that's one point of view, I suppose. But, coming from someone who's never had to give the colour of their skin a second thought, it's maybe a one sided point of view. Even if a person decides not to be defined by the colour of their skin, their going to be pretty disappointed if everyone else defines them that way.
[/quote]

This is nail meeting head. Not always, but a lot of the time, a white life will not have ever given their colour of skin a second thought. The reasons behind this would be what is referred to as white privelege. A lot of black people will have given their colour of skin a second thought, and not because they chose to be defined by it, but because of something else in society that causes them to. The point of BLM is to bring about change so that they don’t have to, in the same way a white person wouldnt have to. It’s not make white lives mean less, it’s make black lives mean the same, and if a person thinks that BLM is going to make a white life mean less by either bringing the two closer, or some other way, that should only serve to illustrate the point, not set you against it.

What Hamilton is doing - really, it’s no different to a tv personality hearing about a friends 2 year old kid who is going to die if they don’t get a heart transplant and then using their platform to ask people to be tested for comparability, draw attention to related charities, etc. Would it stop me watching their program if I enjoyed it, no, of course not.

The overall issue is much too big to ever be solved within the next few years, but everything starts somewhere.

I’d also argue, if someone famous stood up and started spouting off about views or a cause you agreed with or supported or matched your views, it wouldn’t turn you off them, it’d probably make you like then more and so I’d say feeling uncomfortable or having the reaction you’ve (the op) had to Hamilton says something too.

[jimbobmccoy]

Hard to take that view though when people are doing monkey chants at you, and throwing bananas, because of the colour of your skin.

Remember, though, that was in Spain. Here in the UK we have, until now I suspect, had the best record of race relations anywhere in Europe. So, when BLM march through London and try to trash statues and monuments, they are setting race relations back by a generation at least, IMHO.

I would respect Hamilton far more if he kept his mouth shut about statues and instead pushed the fact that, here in the UK, he was able to rise to the top – a trailblazer if you will...

...and as commented elsewhere, the fact that he drives a Mercedes and advertises Hugo Boss, yet has not criticised them so far, creates an air of hypocrisy.

   

The fact it’s even a point, that he was able to rise to the top, or was a trailblazer, even in the UK is a problem in itself.
You qualify his achievements in part at least because of his skin colour, and you would not do this or think like this If he were white.

He should quietly try to help rather than draw attention to things, however much of a hamfisted job he does of it, is why people are making so much noise about it - because every other avenue has failed to work, and to go quietly in to the night would achieve what exactly.

Like it or not his actions have got a group of people discussing the topic, thinking about it’s issues, right here - he has achieved in part what he set out to do, which suggests it may have been the right approach, or at least A right approach.

As for people allowing themselves to be defined by their colour or choosing to be defined by it - I’m not sure Hamilton has, he’s just gone out and pursued his goals. He’s probably found it harder than some because of his colour and. Is he’s in a position to do so he is speaking out about it, but really, he should just go and do some charity work quietly?

[Doctor Gollum]

You can raise awareness without blindly joining bandwagons because it makes you look cool on instagram.

You can't choose to be black/yellow/irish, but you can choose how you want to deal with it.

For example, I don't choose to have white privilege, there is nothing I can do to alter the irrefutable fact that my parents were white. By the same definition, I have zero idea what it is like to have mixed race or immigrant parents. From a statistical minority standpoint, it is all too easy to play the victim card, but why would anyone voluntarily define themselves that way?

You enter the world with nothing but the skin you're born in. Everything that happens after that is up to you.

So to define yourself by something you have no control over is insane.

[STEMO]

No ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, is going to end up having equal rights with the indigenous population. Fact.
In law, yes. In practice, no.

[Doctor Gollum]

No ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, is going to end up having equal rights with the indigenous population. Fact.
In law, yes. In practice, no.

Remove the definition and there is no argument.

Everybody is equal.

What i don't understand is how that is so difficult a concept to grasp. 

[jimbobmccoy]

You can raise awareness without blindly joining bandwagons because it makes you look cool on instagram.

You can't choose to be black/yellow/irish, but you can choose how you want to deal with it.

For example, I don't choose to have white privilege, there is nothing I can do to alter the irrefutable fact that my parents were white. By the same definition, I have zero idea what it is like to have mixed race or immigrant parents. From a statistical minority standpoint, it is all too easy to play the victim card, but why would anyone voluntarily define themselves that way?

You enter the world with nothing but the skin you're born in. Everything that happens after that is up to you.

So to define yourself by something you have no control over is insane.

I think part of the point is that everything that happens after a black person is born isn’t up to them due to the white privilege that exists and limits them. To achieve the same as an equivalent white person, a black person will likely need to do more.
It’s not about playing the victim card, and it’s not about what the media portrays, it’s about black people doing what you suggest - trying to make it up to them and change things so it doesn’t matter if you’re born black or white, life offers the same hand (other factors being excluded).

That they haven’t got any control over some of it is part of the problem, and what they are trying to get now.

I agree that people jumping in the bandwagon, people twisting things, or riding the cost tails with their own agenda, doesn’t help, but that’s par for the course with any sort of public movement or outcry, but if you support change you can see through that easy enough.

People didn’t choose to be born black, and they are choosing how they want to deal with that - by trying to change the status quo. It’s on them to do so in an effective way, including distancing themselves from subversive protestors and bandwagoning celebs, but again, I don’t know why any of what has been discussed would make me stop watching f1 or thinking/liking a driver because they’re good.

[jimbobmccoy]

No ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, is going to end up having equal rights with the indigenous population. Fact.
In law, yes. In practice, no.

But a fourth generation black person who’s family has contributed as much to the crown as a 4th generation white immigrant should be equal in law and in practice. They are as indigenous as anyone else in the country at that point.

That they aren’t is purely based on skin colour, which is where the problem lies. Comparing an indigenous population solely in skin colour is to ignore a lot of British heritage.

The example 4th generation black person shouldn’t be classified as a minority, or BAME. They’re just British, like you, or me, or anyone similar.

While that distinction exists, the problem exists (which I think is part of what DG alluded to?)

[Doctor Gollum]

If your skin colour statistically places you within a 14% proportion of the national population, you can't change that fact, but you can effect how you deal with it. If it's actually important. Which it shouldn't be. On any level.

Of course, that's easy to say, because apparently something called 'white privilege' makes me racist because I happen to statistically belong to the same box as 82% of the rest of the population.

The issue with sports people and actors etc is that we respect and look up to them for what they do, but then, because we feel that we know them (because we devote hours of our free time supporting them through the trials and tribulations of their careers) it comes as a disappointment that they don't think or act in a way that we agree with. This is simply because you become defined by the people you choose to spend time with, and if someone you think you know, says/does something that doesn't fit, it's difficult not to become conflicted.

Think how you felt at school when the new kid you got on really well with couldn't stand your best mate...

[STEMO]

No ethnic minority, anywhere in the world, is going to end up having equal rights with the indigenous population. Fact.
In law, yes. In practice, no.

But a fourth generation black person who’s family has contributed as much to the crown as a 4th generation white immigrant should be equal in law and in practice. They are as indigenous as anyone else in the country at that point.

That they aren’t is purely based on skin colour, which is where the problem lies. Comparing an indigenous population solely in skin colour is to ignore a lot of British heritage.

The example 4th generation black person shouldn’t be classified as a minority, or BAME. They’re just British, like you, or me, or anyone similar.

While that distinction exists, the problem exists (which I think is part of what DG alluded to?)

Possibly, but I didn't go into ethics or fairness, I stated a fact. You use words like 'should' and 'shouldn't', but a lot of things that should and shouldn't happen do happen.
I am not getting involved in the rights and wrongs, even though I hear a few people say that makes me racist. The fact that I'm not interested enough makes me racist, apparently. Like I said, I really don't care, I'm busy.