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[aaronjb]

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking.

Now that's a manly engine

[TheBoy]

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking.

Now that's a manly engine

And the namby pamby millennial snowflakes will say its too dangerous....

[Lizzie Zoom]

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking.

Now that's a manly engine

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlin's into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943.

[Nick W]

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking.

Now that's a manly engine

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlins into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943.

They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials because they proved much more durable and easier to make: damage a cylinder and you can replace it, damage a cylinder on a Merlin and you also replace it. The engine, that is!

[Kevin Wood]

Having stood at the wingtip of a spitfire as it's started, you can watch little sprays of fuel eminating from each of the exhaust stubs as it goes through its' firing order. As the first cylinder to fire exhausts, the whole lot catches fire before the prop wash blows the fire out a second or two later and the ground starts shaking.

Now that's a manly engine

And in their day those engines had the best RAF ground crew /  engineers working on them 24/7 to keep them in prime condition, even after they had been damaged in battle. However, given the loss rates of the fighters and bombers, so many of those engines never became old.   

They were fine engines that won the war, and even impressed the Yanks, who of course famously decided to fit Merlins into their P51 Mustang's  to give them a superiority of performance and range that saved many a B17 and it's crew from late 1943.

They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials because they proved much more durable and easier to make: damage a cylinder and you can replace it, damage a cylinder on a Merlin and you also replace it. The engine, that is!

True, but, then again, making it an air cooled radial pretty much guaranteed that you'd be damaging cylinders in the first place.

[terry paget]

Packards made the American Merlins, using Rolls Royce drawings and specifications. A speaker in Bristol told us that Packards complained that no torque wrench setting were included. RR retorted that their lads knew how tight to do up a nut, but anyhow they came with some torques and  Packard used them. It turned out later that Packard Merlins were more reliable than RR Merlins. Apocrythal? Who knows.

[Lizzie Zoom]

I am baffled by the referencing of air cooled radial engines in the above posts.

The P51's were initially fitted with Allison V-1710 V-12 liquid-cooled engine, not a radial, and not air cooled.  It was these engines that were replaced by he Packard manufactured RR Merlin V12 engines under licence.

[aaronjb]

I am baffled by the referencing of air cooled radial engines in the above posts.

I believe Nick's words were "They fitted Merlins because the original V12 didnt work too well. American planes mainly used radials.." - two separate statements, the first about the P51, the latter about everything else (emphasis added by me) like the Corsair, Dauntless, Wildcat, Hellcat etc..

[dave the builder]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

[Lizzie Zoom]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

There is a slim connection Dave with the start of the thread and the subject of aero engines;  British car manufacturing plants during WW2 built them and that experience must have helped the future development of engines, such as that for the Astra

Anyway, with OOF threads who knows where they are going to end up when they are started!

[dave the builder]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

There is a slim connection Dave with the start of the thread and the subject of aero engines;  British car manufacturing plants during WW2 built them and that experience must have helped the future development of engines, such as that for the Astra

Anyway, with OOF threads who knows where they are going to end up when they are started!

OK , plus fitting an aero engine would probably cause more rattles and bring on the EML (which would be an MOT fail ) 

[Nick W]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.

[Lizzie Zoom]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.

Without the Merlin V12 the famous planes we know of today would have, back in WW2, been driven from the sky by German aircraft and we would be speaking German

[Doctor Gollum]

Has this thread gone off topic  or is Terry sticking a V12 airplane lump in 
in which case ,he may wish to consider fitting better brakes etc
 

Better off using a Meteor, which is intended to have a gearbox bolted on the back, rather than the propeller reduction gear on the front. Cheaper too.


And my point about US radials is that they were to the Merlin what a high-spec small block Chevy is to a Ferrari V12: similar power, but much cheaper to make, easier to work on, fits in a smaller space and more durable.

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.

Without the Merlin V12 the famous planes we know of today would have, back in WW2, been driven from the sky by German aircraft and we would be speaking German

Re read the analogy and report back

[Nick W]

The radials were inferior and did not have similar power. That is why all Allied main fighters and bombers were equipped with water or oil cooled in line or V configuration engines that could out perform any radial that by then belonged to the early era of flying. If radials had been so good, and able to be developed further, then they would have been.

Look at American stuff again. Radials are everywhere. They were still fitted in high performance fighters into the fifties; look up Grumman's Corsair, which makes a Spitfire look slow, expensive, hard to fly and unreliable.


Even the workhorse P&W 1830(DC3 engine and bomber, so it's like a truck motor compared to a racecar) makes 1200hp when supercharged. A radial engined DC3 is still the most cost effective way of moving 3 tons of stuff of short grass strips.