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[Mister Rog]

Is this really in the public interest after so long ? If they were going to do it, it should have been done years ago


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-44656778

[Doctor Gollum]

Were they deliberately negligent, or was it simply that procedures and systems in place at the time were woefully lacking 

Surely the whole saga has surely cost everybody involved, not to mention the tax payers, far more time, emotion and cash than the end result could ever warrant 

Repeatedly trying the same organizations/people for the same thing and expecting a different result is surely madness.

[omegod]

They were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families 
 

[LC0112G]

They were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families

^^This.

[Doctor Gollum]

They were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families

Can't argue with that, although it begs the question as to why this wasn't dealt with at the time 

[scimmy_man]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

[Doctor Gollum]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

Clearly they are... But presumably cannot be held to account in court

[omegod]

They were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families

Can't argue with that, although it begs the question as to why this wasn't dealt with at the time 

Because of this, it took 20 yrs of fighting by the families to get to the truth

[omegod]

A refresher should anyone require, sorry if I'm going on a bit !

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

[Doctor Gollum]

 

[Viral_Jim]

Is this really in the public interest after so long ? If they were going to do it, it should have been done years ago


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-44656778

I've never understood the argument that the passage of time can lead to a case no longer being in the public interest to pursue.  The natural end to that argument is that as long as you can get away with your crime/wrongdoing for a certain period of time, then you no longer need to be held to account for it.

No argument that it should have been dealt with at the time, but, much like the paedophile priests in the Catholic church, there was a powerful organisation that made it its business to ensure that "their men" didn't get the blame for what happened.

[TheBoy]

Yeah, bored already.

I'm sure there will be another vigil, and then the spongers looking for compo.  FFS, it was a million years ago, time to move on (20yrs ago).


I'm sure in 22yrs time, the firefighters at Grenfell will be deemed to have lied and covered up.  And that's another bunch of wasters that need to shut up and move on.  And also Manchester Arena....    ….and I could go on and on and one and..

[STEMO]

Yeah, bored already.

I'm sure there will be another vigil, and then the spongers looking for compo.  FFS, it was a million years ago, time to move on (20yrs ago).


I'm sure in 22yrs time, the firefighters at Grenfell will be deemed to have lied and covered up.  And that's another bunch of wasters that need to shut up and move on.  And also Manchester Arena....    ….and I could go on and on and one and..

You do. 

[annihilator]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

Typically ill informed opinion.
They weren't" ticket less yobs", despite having larger fan support Liverpool were given the smaller end which caused large queues at the turnstiles and instead of delaying the kick off so they could all get in the police took the decision to just open the gates and let everyone in at once without directing the fans to the stands either side of the central one where everyone died a horrible crushing death.

[Rods2]

I think there is sufficient evidence of criminal negligence and then the cover up to mean it needs to be tried in a court and those responsible convicted or cleared. The 96 families will then hopefully see justice done which will help them with coming to terms and closure for this awful catastrophe.

[biggriffin]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

.

I aggree with this, and from what I've read about the incident, was never mentioned,  its like trying to put a gallon in a pint pot, it won't fit,.
They need someone to blame for there actions,  the commander of the day opened the gates to them, and they all tried to rush in, something had to give, 
Basically who do you blame, 
The FA for insisting on pens to hold the fans, the fans who through force of numbers caused the situation,or the commander for opening the gates to allow them in, the fans will always say they did nothing wrong...

It was a tragic accident.

The problem is there are those with an agenda,

So if a1000+ without tickets hadn't been there, would it have happened.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Be that as it may, they lied through their teeth and put all the blame on the fans themselves. They even "leaked" to the Sun newspaper that fans were pissing on the dead bodies, just to help complete the picture of them being scum who deserved no sympathy.
To my mind, that in itself is justification for dragging them into the dock and throwing the book at them.
Bent coppers deserve the worst of punishment in my book.

[omegod]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

.

I aggree with this, and from what I've read about the incident, was never mentioned,  its like trying to put a gallon in a pint pot, it won't fit,.
They need someone to blame for there actions,  the commander of the day opened the gates to them, and they all tried to rush in, something had to give, 
Basically who do you blame, 
The FA for insisting on pens to hold the fans, the fans who through force of numbers caused the situation,or the commander for opening the gates to allow them in, the fans will always say they did nothing wrong...

It was a tragic accident.

The problem is there are those with an agenda,

So if a1000+ without tickets hadn't been there, would it have happened.

It wasn't mentioned because there weren't 1000 ticketless fans ( Tory and press bullshit/deflection), the crush outside was because the fans with tickets weren't being processed quick enough so they opened the gates , directly opposite was the tunnel for the central pen so people naturally rushed for that as the game had kicked off already, sadly it was already full and the side pens were near empty, one copper could have stood at the central tunnel and said it's full and averted the whole disaster

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Don't see what it had to do with the Tories apart from the fact they were in Govt. at the time, so probably assumed to be part of the establishment cover up. 
Quite likely that the same "info" that was fed to the media from the senior Police, who were covering their arses, was also fed back up the chain to Govt. level.

[Andy B]

They were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families

^^This.

Agreed

[Bigron]

Of course, without football and its associated bad behaviour, this would never have happened. 

Ron.

[tigers_gonads]

A refresher should anyone require, sorry if I'm going on a bit !

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

Yes 

As a avid football supporter who in those days, occasionally took part in rather naughty exploits while on away days, I spent years calling opps out of the scousers who was in the pen that afternoon.

A couple of years ago, I was working down at a B&Q near Watford with a scouse lad who was there and who lost his friend that day.
When he told me what REALLY went on both during and after that day, I felt physically sick 

In this case, those who not only oppsed up BUT LIED should be hounded to the ends of the earth 

[2boxerdogs]

Unfortunately a tragedy, but also an accident  but nowadays people love to blame someone, won't make any difference to the event.

[omegod]

Unfortunately a tragedy, but also an accident  but nowadays people love to blame someone, won't make any difference to the event.

But in this case those being blamed do have blood on their hands,no it won't make a difference to the event but justice needs to be served.

If it had been 96 attendees at a posh polo event who were crushed to death I'm sure it would have been done and dusted years ago. 

[STEMO]

Unfortunately a tragedy, but also an accident  but nowadays people love to blame someone, won't make any difference to the event.

If manslaughter by negligence is proved, then it can't have been an accident. The charge means the deaths were caused by the actions of one or more people.
Surprised at you with your background, Tilbo.

[redelitev6]

Unfortunately a tragedy, but also an accident  but nowadays people love to blame someone, won't make any difference to the event.

This morning I spilt my rice krispies all over myself and the sofa , that was an accident 

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

Unfortunately a tragedy, but also an accident  but nowadays people love to blame someone, won't make any difference to the event.

This morning I spilt my rice krispies all over myself and the sofa , that was an accident

I also had rice crispies.............and a banana.

[2boxerdogs]

I dont understand how a thousand or so people who turned up without tickets intending to force their way in are not in anyway to blame?

.

I aggree with this, and from what I've read about the incident, was never mentioned,  its like trying to put a gallon in a pint pot, it won't fit,.
They need someone to blame for there actions,  the commander of the day opened the gates to them, and they all tried to rush in, something had to give, 
Basically who do you blame, 
The FA for insisting on pens to hold the fans, the fans who through force of numbers caused the situation,or the commander for opening the gates to allow them in, the fans will always say they did nothing wrong...

It was a tragic accident.

The problem is there are those with an agenda,

So if a1000+ without tickets hadn't been there, would it have happened.

. 




Absolutely spot on ,my thoughts entirely.

[Sir Tigger KC]

With the mob baying for blood, does anyone think that this guy will get a fair trial?     

[Doctor Gollum]

Depends how many Everton supporters are in the jury...

[TheBoy]

With the mob baying for blood, does anyone think that this guy will get a fair trial?     

Oh course he won't.


The poor bastard most likely did what he thought was the right thing at the time, but that doesn't matter to those hounding for blood.  In the same way the Grenfell firemen are starting to be vilified for doing the best job they could with the information they had at the time.

[2boxerdogs]

The trouble is ordinary folk expect miracles from doctors emergency service workers etc , but they are just ordinary folk like you & me they have to make a split minute decision if it goes right they are heroes but if it goes wrong someone has to take the blame , I've seen it happen many times in my working life & I've also faced accusation over a cot death when in the Ambulance service of which I was cleared completely. It was a tragedy but nobody set out with the intention of causing deaths.

[STEMO]

The trouble is ordinary folk expect miracles from doctors emergency service workers etc , but they are just ordinary folk like you & me they have to make a split minute decision if it goes right they are heroes but if it goes wrong someone has to take the blame , I've seen it happen many times in my working life & I've also faced accusation over a cot death when in the Ambulance service of which I was cleared completely. It was a tragedy but nobody set out with the intention of causing deaths.

You're still ignoring the fact that they tried to deflect from the truth by vilifying the dead. Lies and cover ups for years and years to save their own wretched skins.
I might have some sympathy if they'd held their hands up from the beginning and admitted they made a huge mistake. But no, they've plotted, conspired and coerced their way into a criminal prosecution. As is usual in these cases, it's taken far too long, and the dirty bastards are too old to serve long behind bars.

[Bigron]

You have it in a nutshell, Tilbo. Because people like you routinely do great and wonderful things (especially in the medical profession), expectations are sometimes unrealistically high, and when those expectations are not met, it becomes "Why can't you work your usual miracles; there must be something you can do?"
All credit to those who look after us, and thank you. 

Ron.

[Mister Rog]

With the mob baying for blood, does anyone think that this guy will get a fair trial?     

Oh course he won't.


The poor bastard most likely did what he thought was the right thing at the time, but that doesn't matter to those hounding for blood.  In the same way the Grenfell firemen are starting to be vilified for doing the best job they could with the information they had at the time.

Did he get up that morning and think "I'd like to kill some people" ?

Was he incompetent ? probably.

Did he try to cover up his incompetence ? Probably

Can he be put into the same category as serial killers, child rapists, paedos, gangster knife murderers, high school shooters etc ? I think not.

Will any trial bring anyone back from the dead ? No

Will a trial cost squillions of pounds ? Yes

Are there a load of compensation lawyers waiting in the wings ? . . . . you decide

Will the press feed on this for a very long time ? Yes

[2boxerdogs]

The trouble is ordinary folk expect miracles from doctors emergency service workers etc , but they are just ordinary folk like you & me they have to make a split minute decision if it goes right they are heroes but if it goes wrong someone has to take the blame , I've seen it happen many times in my working life & I've also faced accusation over a cot death when in the Ambulance service of which I was cleared completely. It was a tragedy but nobody set out with the intention of causing deaths.

You're still ignoring the fact that they tried to deflect from the truth by vilifying the dead. Lies and cover ups for years and years to save their own wretched skins.
I might have some sympathy if they'd held their hands up from the beginning and admitted they made a huge mistake. But no, they've plotted, conspired and coerced their way into a criminal prosecution. As is usual in these cases, it's taken far too long, and the dirty bastards are too old to serve long behind bars.

.   



Unfortunately Stemo that's human nature to lie , it takes a very special & brave individual to tell the truth .

[STEMO]

Well.....fortunately, the justice system doesn't take into account human nature, nor the points of view of the dinosaurs who know this kind of thing has gone on for years and, unless exposed, would still go on. Cover ups are becoming harder to get away with.

Now.....about this poor doctor who killed hundreds of patients at her hospital. Just doing her job, no doubt. Not getting up with the intention of killing anyone.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I agree with this ^ . The lies that were told and the huge cover up that went on should have been punished a long time ago, but better late than never.
I remember seeing an interview with a policewoman who said that the notes she took at the scene were taking off her and rewritten by someone who was her senior, in order to cover up the facts and shift the blame. She was disgusted, but too scared to do anything at the time.
When people in positions of authority do this kind of thing, they must accept that if caught, they will be for the high jump.

[2boxerdogs]

My thoughts are that many who are "baying for justice" are just types that have a dislike for Police for one reason or another , an agenda which I personally have no time for.

[Bigron]

I agree with this ^ . The lies that were told and the huge cover up that went on should have been punished a long time ago, but better late than never.
I remember seeing an interview with a policewoman who said that the notes she took at the scene were taking off her and rewritten by someone who was her senior, in order to cover up the facts and shift the blame. She was disgusted, but too scared to do anything at the time.
When people in positions of authority do this kind of thing, they must accept that if caught, they will be for the high jump.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? 

Ron.

[STEMO]

My thoughts are that many who are "baying for justice" are just types that have a dislike for Police for one reason or another , an agenda which I personally have no time for.

Then your thoughts, wherever you got them from, are wrong. Unless, of course, you have some sort of evidence to the contrary.

[BazaJT]

I think you can go round and round in circles as to who may have been at fault for the tragedy it became.Whoever was responsible for not delaying the kick off thereby in effect creating the stampede into the ground.The senior police officer in charge for his gate opening decision.Football fans in general for their behaviour which resulted in the creation of the "pens" which in turn had a hand in creating this tragedy.Having said all that the decisions were made[probably in all good faith]and may just may have been forgiven[for want of a better word]what was and still is unforgiveable was the cover up and downright lies which followed and for that alone a trial should ensue even if only for perverting the course of justice.

[STEMO]

I think you can go round and round in circles as to who may have been at fault for the tragedy it became.Whoever was responsible for not delaying the kick off thereby in effect creating the stampede into the ground.The senior police officer in charge for his gate opening decision.Football fans in general for their behaviour which resulted in the creation of the "pens" which in turn had a hand in creating this tragedy.Having said all that the decisions were made[probably in all good faith]and may just may have been forgiven[for want of a better word]what was and still is unforgiveable was the cover up and downright lies which followed and for that alone a trial should ensue even if only for perverting the course of justice.

That's it in a nutshell. Self preservation at any cost.

[2boxerdogs]

My thoughts are that many who are "baying for justice" are just types that have a dislike for Police for one reason or another , an agenda which I personally have no time for.

Then your thoughts, wherever you got them from, are wrong. Unless, of course, you have some sort of evidence to the contrary.

My thoughts are that many who are "baying for justice" are just types that have a dislike for Police for one reason or another , an agenda which I personally have no time for.

Then your thoughts, wherever you got them from, are wrong. Unless, of course, you have some sort of evidence to the contrary.

. 



My thoughts are fine with me, they are based on my life experiences 10 years forces 11years ambulance service 5years fire service & the last 21years in HMPS, taught by "experts" on how to react how to deal with situations how-to handle"fight or flight" mode . I have probably seen & done things that would make any normal person freeze in their tracks, but when things go wrong the "experts" wash their hands of you that's when you find out how your true mates are. As for your thoughts on the Justice system it has already failed as someone will be made a scapegoat a trial cannot be fair  as people's comments & remarks are no more than a modern day lynch party.

[STEMO]

That just confirms that your thoughts are your own personal point of view, not anything concrete. Siege mentality.
You have probably done no more or less than thousands of people who serve in the NHS, prison service, fire brigade, armed forces, etc. I don't see how that has the slightest bearing on the criminality that happened after Hillsborough. Unless, of course, you've 'closed ranks' in the past.

[STEMO]

And, just one more thing, I don't think that anyone should be charged with manslaughter because, as you say, the was no intention to harm. The charge should be the equally serious one of perverting the course of justice.

[2boxerdogs]

I will just agree to differ , it is obvious you have led a very sheltered life.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

My thoughts are that many who are "baying for justice" are just types that have a dislike for Police for one reason or another , an agenda which I personally have no time for.

My Dad was in the police a long time ago ( a B special to be precise), my lifelong best friend spent 25 years in the police, his wife was a divisional commander. I don't have a problem with the police, but like most police officers and right thinking people, I reserve a special loathing for bent coppers. They are worse than your common or garden criminal.

[STEMO]

I will just agree to differ , it is obvious you have led a very sheltered life.

Yep. It was very sheltered in the back streets of Liverpool, and for the time I was in the army in the early seventies. Albs puts it very well, bent bastards in any public service should be despised by those both inside and outside of the service. For every member of the lynch mob baying for blood, as you put it, there is someone trying to defend their despicable behaviour and citing stress or some such shite.
Just because people do a difficult job, it doesn't absolve them when they break the law.

[omegod]

Bent coppers were pursued with dogged vigour and dignity by the families despite thwarting attempts and lies from every public office involved but they got the truth in the end.

The talk of cost is appalling, if they hadn't bloody lied and smeared it would have been done and dusted yonks ago, it took a multi million pound inquiry to get the slithering and lying bastards to admit they covered up, had they threw their hands up earlier and not hid behind the old boys network there would have been no cost, mistakes that cause deaths are forgivable, lies are not. 

I'm not eager for manslaughter charges either but how what occurred after the event can sit comfortably with anyone is absolutely beyond me !

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Another witch hunt in the making. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-44696813

[omegod]

Are you actually that cold ?

I suppose they aren't bereaved parents are they, just after a bit of compo and all that, they will be made up really won't they

FFS !

[STEMO]

Are you actually that cold ?

I suppose they aren't bereaved parents are they, just after a bit of compo and all that, they will be made up really won't they

FFS !

I think he was being sarcastic. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Sorry Jon I didn't mean it to come across that way at all  STEMO  is right. I was being sarcastic from the perspective of - its another person in a position of care / authority apparently found to be doing terrible things. Should those who now pursue her for what she did be accused of a witch hunt etc. 

[Sir Tigger KC]

Bent coppers were pursued with dogged vigour and dignity by the families despite thwarting attempts and lies from every public office involved but they got the truth in the end.

The talk of cost is appalling, if they hadn't bloody lied and smeared it would have been done and dusted yonks ago, it took a multi million pound inquiry to get the slithering and lying bastards to admit they covered up, had they threw their hands up earlier and not hid behind the old boys network there would have been no cost, mistakes that cause deaths are forgivable, lies are not. 

I'm not eager for manslaughter charges either but how what occurred after the event can sit comfortably with anyone is absolutely beyond me !

I don't think that anyone is saying that they are comfortable with the cover up and I agree with those who say that those involved should be ruthlessly hunted down and charged with perversion of the course of justice or any other relevant charges.

However, charging those who made fatal decisions on the day with manslaughter does smack of a witch hunt and finding scapegoats. For some here this is clearly personal and I am far removed, but I believe people made decisions based on the information they had and the developing situation they were confronted with. 

Fatal mistakes were made for sure, but I don't believe anyone knowingly sent 90 odd people to their deaths.

[New POD]

They are accused of being were criminally negligent, lied about it , falsified evidence and officers statements ,blamed victims for their own deaths, those deaths their poor decision making caused whilst in a position of responsibility.

Yeah...it most definitely is in the public interest and most certainly for 96 families

I have edited your statement because I absolutely believe you are right, but I want the rule of law to be upheld. These people are innocent until PROVED beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that they are guilty. I want these people to have a fair trial, and when the evidence* is presented they have the opportunity to present a defense and the Jury and the Judge, will have no excuse not to find them guilty beyond doubt.

I don't want them to defend themselves by being able to point out it's a witch hunt.

*Luckily there's enough evidence in the public domain, presented at the inquest(s) in warrington, that suggests, that those responsible will get what they rightly deserve.

[New POD]

With the mob baying for blood, does anyone think that this guy will get a fair trial?     

It's one thing to make a mistake, and compound that mistake because you are not prepared for the carnage that results from your errors.

It's another to lie about it.

Had those people in charge, had the moral fibre to admit their failings, then they would have been seen as "just" grossly incompetent.