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[Doctor Gollum]

Negotiating with the EU was never going to go well; 1 against 27 is a piss poor situation to volunteer for, and the EU as a group cannot afford to be seen giving in to us.

I think they are realising that they've over played their hand, hence Tusk lashing out yesterday. 

In other news, there were reports yesterday that the 'backstop' might be illegal under EU law, as A50 provides for a 'framework' for future relations  and we've ended up with a legally binding protocol in the Withdrawal Agreement that deals with the future relationship.

If we cast our minds back to June 2017 (hard for some I know!) David Davis wanted to run two sets of negotiations concurrently to deal with the withdrawal and the future FTA, but Barnier refused saying that the EU couldn't negotiate a future relationship with a current member as a point of EU law, but then went on to insist on the backstop. A slight contradiction? 

Which is what I have been saying all along... There can be no deal until we have left.

The current 'discussion' is simply* to lay the foundation for the negotiation that cannot happen before March 30th.

*not to belittle the significance, but this is the sole purpose of the current argument, which is rather moot because gov.uk seem to have spectacularly overlooked this detail

[Lizzie Zoom]

When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .

And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."

I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?

I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer!

Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.

What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why.  Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.

Ask yourself , Did Britain have the answer or plan for winning any of the wars they entered into on Day two?   I will perhaps get flamed for using a war analogy but it is Project Fear (Remainers) who repeatedly ram it down our throats that the sky is going to fall in, there will be no lettuces, we wont be able to go on a European holiday as the planes will not be flying ad infinitum. All folk that you would want to surround yourself with in a crisis self inflicted or not and yet that is exactly what we have done. It dorsnt bode well for say a Russian incursion. Parliament would spend two years agreeing nothing other than to perhaps agree to then fight them on whatever terms they offered...........

Now that is an interesting question.  Once Winston took up the role of PM in May 1940 he did have an outline of what had to be done; first keep Germany out of Britain by using the new RAF planes, the Spitfire in particular and using radar that during the late thirties had been identified as being essential for any future (inevitable) war with Hitler, and also increasing the strength of the Royal Navy.  Then survival, pure and simple, was the plan, trying hard to get the Americans in to join the fight that Winston worked hard to do with the nightmare of the Battle of the Atlantic taking a dreadful toll.  Then, after the USA joined the war on 11th December 1941, one of the main discussions and planning objectives by the Joint Chief of Staffs was an invasion of Europe to drive the Germans out. Thus various planning started on what D-Day would look like back in 1942, with the Dieppe raid on 19th August 1942 a (costly) experiment to see what a sea bourne landing would have to achieve, and the minimum of resources that MUST be deployed.  That, with all the other very detailed planning, that also featured the North Africa and Sicily campaigns, led to the 6th June 1944.

So, in short, Winston Churchill coalition Government, yes often living by the seat of their pants, did have very clear objectives and serious plans were constructed that would eventually achieve Victory.  Note the "coalition" approach, which used all the strengths of the political system in Britain; that is what has been missing with Brexit, along with clear plans and objectives by Boris Johnson and crew.  Winston Churchill achieved his Victory by good managerial practice, detailed planning, training, communication, activation, motivation, monitoring and rectification / modification as required.  I have to admit that although Mrs May has done her best, her management of the challenge in hand has been woeful and lacked the desire, until very recently, to form a coalition of opinions, suggestions, and action.  In short it has been woolly and weak management, for which I would in business replace that team with another who could give me the results.

[Kevin Wood]

Which is what I have been saying all along... There can be no deal until we have left.

The current 'discussion' is simply* to lay the foundation for the negotiation that cannot happen before March 30th.

*not to belittle the significance, but this is the sole purpose of the current argument, which is rather moot because gov.uk seem to have spectacularly overlooked this detail

The foundation to the final negatiations is important, though. There's a difference between the negotiations towards that final "deal" happening on a foundation of no deal actually meaning the train running off the tracks for both parties at the end of the transition, against the foundation being that we get endlessly stuck in the EUs "legally binding" backstop if we can't reach agreement, or the EU decide they like it that way and just prevaricate endlessly.

We aren't actually negotiating untll both parties can see a negative outcome looming which negotiation will avert.

[Varche]

When I heard what tusk said I was initially very angry then I calmed down and realised that it only confirmed my belief of just how utterly contemptuous that cabal is of democracy .
Any hope or belief that these " leaders " of the eu are free of any malevolence towards those that seek to extricate themselves from under their self proclaimed control should be washed away by his conduct today.
The fact that he ,as the president of the ec, he feels that statements like that are acceptable at such a difficult time for all concerned shows his lack of any respect for the people that he has been negotiating with for so long , and most likely the attitude that he and his fellow cohorts have adopted bethind closed doors .
They disgust me .

And as for that nefarious little squeek varadker, he reminds me of that odious little insignifiLady bits little boy in the playground who has three big brothers to back him up when he exploits his fellow pupils .
I firmly believe that ireland will ultimately pay a price for all their shenanigans .
" when ye sup with the devil ...."

I agree with all you say. But, is Tuskie boy right in asking why the Brexiteers like boffoon Boris did not have a plan on paper about what Brexit would look like?

I know I may get an unfriendly reaction to that, but the question should be asked, although it will do sweet fa now to have that answer!

Good question Lizzie. The vote was in or out. Plain and simple. What the out plan looked like was down to our useless politicians to agree AFTER the vote . This they singularly failed to do.

What is clear is leaving the club that is the EU is not easy and you have to ask why.  Plain and simple, leaving wasnt ever going to be easy. I think if we had adopted the Euro as advocated by some supposedly eminent stalwarts, it would have been virtually impossible. Our politicians should have led the negotiations instead we faffed about sacking or causing the negotating team to resign. They, led by Theresa May should hang their heads in shame.

Ask yourself , Did Britain have the answer or plan for winning any of the wars they entered into on Day two?   I will perhaps get flamed for using a war analogy but it is Project Fear (Remainers) who repeatedly ram it down our throats that the sky is going to fall in, there will be no lettuces, we wont be able to go on a European holiday as the planes will not be flying ad infinitum. All folk that you would want to surround yourself with in a crisis self inflicted or not and yet that is exactly what we have done. It dorsnt bode well for say a Russian incursion. Parliament would spend two years agreeing nothing other than to perhaps agree to then fight them on whatever terms they offered...........

Now that is an interesting question.  Once Winston took up the role of PM in May 1940 he did have an outline of what had to be done; first keep Germany out of Britain by using the new RAF planes, the Spitfire in particular and using radar that during the late thirties had been identified as being essential for any future (inevitable) war with Hitler, and also increasing the strength of the Royal Navy.  Then survival, pure and simple, was the plan, trying hard to get the Americans in to join the fight that Winston worked hard to do with the nightmare of the Battle of the Atlantic taking a dreadful toll.  Then, after the USA joined the war on 11th December 1941, one of the main discussions and planning objectives by the Joint Chief of Staffs was an invasion of Europe to drive the Germans out. Thus various planning started on what D-Day would look like back in 1942, with the Dieppe raid on 19th August 1942 a (costly) experiment to see what a sea bourne landing would have to achieve, and the minimum of resources that MUST be deployed.  That, with all the other very detailed planning, that also featured the North Africa and Sicily campaigns, led to the 6th June 1944.

So, in short, Winston Churchill coalition Government, yes often living by the seat of their pants, did have very clear objectives and serious plans were constructed that would eventually achieve Victory.  Note the "coalition" approach, which used all the strengths of the political system in Britain; that is what has been missing with Brexit, along with clear plans and objectives by Boris Johnson and crew.  Winston Churchill achieved his Victory by good managerial practice, detailed planning, training, communication, activation, motivation, monitoring and rectification / modification as required.  I have to admit that although Mrs May has done her best, her management of the challenge in hand has been woeful and lacked the desire, until very recently, to form a coalition of opinions, suggestions, and action.  In short it has been woolly and weak management, for which I would in business replace that team with another who could give me the results.

To be honest, I half expected the Queen to announce her government and opposition was a shower and to dissolve parliament and put Charley boy in charge and then have elections in April.

[Doctor Gollum]

There would be some grumbling, but although they are our representation, they are first and foremost HER government...

[Sir Tigger KC]

There would be some grumbling, but although they are our representation, they are first and foremost HER government...

Some grumbling?     The outrage would be spectacular!    

An event definitely worth getting the popcorn out for! 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Some random points on Brexit.
If we leave on WTO terms, the delicious irony will be that it is Gina Millers fault. She went to court to force the Govt. to have all these votes in Parliament, every step of the way. If she hadn't done that, May could have signed off the deal she did without having it rejected by Parliament.
I have been saying for quite a while that the Backstop, which is said to have the purpose of preserving the Belfast agreement, is in clear breach of the same agreement. This due to the fact that the most basic principle of the agreement is that the status of Norn Irn within the UK, cannot be changed unless consent is given by the electorate of Norn Irn.
The backstop will change the status of Norn Irn within the UK.
Lord David Trimble has now recognised this and is in the process of taking legal action against the Govt. over it.
While all the publicity yesterday was around Tusks opinions on Brexiteers going to hell something much worse, imo, didn't get much publicity at all.
Varadkar was seen given Juncker a large card from Irish people with a special message written inside.
The text in the card included statements which said "for the first time Ireland is more powerful than Britian". Britian isn't interested in peace in Norn Irn, they just see it as a nuisance".
Conformation to me, if it was needed, that the Republic of Ireland is a hostile state and should be treated as such. And its leaders can never ever be trusted.

[STEMO]

I don't think Varadker's behaviour will have gone unnoticed by HMG. We'd only have to tell him to stuff his Irish beef up his little, well worn, brown arsehole to send them into recession.

[Doctor Gollum]

I don't think Varadker's behaviour will have gone unnoticed by HMG. We'd only have to tell him to stuff his Irish beef up his little, well worn, brown arsehole to send them deeper into recession.

Fixed

[aaronjb]

If the Rep. of Ireland is the reason we can't leave the EU, I wonder if things will start going boom again? This time, not thanks to the IRA but thanks to the BNP/etc..

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Unlikely, although it must be said they are basing everything on the assumption that they must appease Republican terrorists while ignoring the possible threat from "loyalist" terrorists.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

I watched an episode of a BBC programme recently which was a documentary on the run up to the referendum and Brexit.
It showed (as though it is perfectly normal behaviour) the British PM going several times to Europe to ask permission from the German Chancellor to have some kind of limit on immigration. The German Chancellor replied "nein".
If the British PM has to ask permission from the German Chancellor to have some small degree of control over who can or cant come to the UK, what was the point of all those poor British souls who lie under the soil in Europe, sacrificing their lives ?
To me, principles like this are infinitely more important than any possible financial considerations.

[Varche]

Spot on. The sad reality is we live in a greed society where maybe 90% of the populace are only interested in will I be better off if there is a change. Those that appreciate the situation are either intelligent folk that have thought it through or older people who still remember the terrible cost of keeping our sovereignty.

We are watching that documentary. Part one was very interesting. As Olympia xxxx said, it would be interesting to see the notes of meetings and to have been a fly on the wall prior .

[STEMO]

Just heard a great word on the news. Guy was talking about going back to the people and he said something like "We can't keep having the people vote until we get the desired result........a Neverendum"

[Olympia5776]

I've lived in Ireland for many years now. It's only since the advent of Brexit that I've seen, read and heard a deep and well rooted vitriol towards the Brits .
The Irish I know and live amongst are warm hearted and very friendly but the country a a whole has an embedded dislike bordering on hatred for the Brits . This , I believe , is fueled by a constant drip feed of images , commemorations and reflections on the famine of 170 years ago . A period of 4 to 5 years that elevated the Brits to a position of disdain that even the Einsatzgruppen couldn't dream of. If you couple this with the events of 100 years ago where they achieved Sovereignty from Britain there is a reservoir of historical collective dislike easily tapped into as and when required.
The country , as a whole , is in a collective mess with desperate housing shortages, health service failings of a monumental scale , ongoing widespread police corruption , despictable deeds commited by the Catholic church upon the neediest of people but ignored by a state that goes hand in hand with the perpetrators , a political elite that believe they are world players  fuelled by the over taxation of 4 million people and so much  much more . You will not read of this in the UK because , well , because Eire doesn't matter to the UK in reality.
In the past the bufoon like leaders focused on their own post official wealth and prior to the advent of social media and the only alternative being  two channel state TV, was nigh on impossible for the electorate to grasp what they were actually doing day to day.
Varadker is different , he has to divert attention from the morass that he and his fellow tribal trough eaters  are slowly sinking into and now is his 15 minutes of fame .
My wife runs a company that sources a lot of their day to day products from UK . They have recieved some basic rudimentary instructions as to what is " advised " if a hard Brexit occurs . She mocked the simplistic and totally ineffective advice that some " department " sent them.
She doesn't want Brexit because it will make her job immensely more difficult . Taking that as an example it shows me that the rank and file of business Ireland see a huge headache looming and all down to the intransigence and pomposity  of a little squeek.
They say that they want a united Ireland , I think they would shit themselves pink if that happened . To suddenly have an additional 1.8 million people ,who have had no experience of living the life of eire , become as one with their brethern in the south will be " interesting".
In fact , with the political savvy honed over generations in the North , it may be the rottweiler that eats the poodle , so to speak ......

PS I CBA doing a spellcheck so if my spelling has offended any of you petals , I don't care .