Topic: 2.2 loosing coolant - head gasket? (Read 4998 times)

terry paget · « **on:** 01 July 2015, 09:53:27 »

My son Jonny complained his car, 2002 petrol 2.2 manual saloon, was loosing water fast and misfiring. I collected it this morning from Chippenham. Coolant was low by Bath, low coolant light came on at Midsomer Norton, tank empty.
I could see no obvious leak; HBV dry, no puddles beneath car. Car misfires hot, not cold. EML light on, code P0304 misfire on no. 4. I removed the plugs; 1,2,3, look fine; 4 looks wet. I checked compression, all cylinders read about 15.5.
I still suspect failed head gasket, but the compression test puzzles me. What do you think?

deviator · « **Reply #1 on:** 01 July 2015, 10:04:38 »

It can still pass a compression test and be a HGF. Any rainbow in the coolant? Milky oil on dipstick/cap? Are the footwell carpets dry?

It might be worth popping into a local garage and getting them to sniff test the coolant.

terry paget · « **Reply #2 on:** 01 July 2015, 10:40:02 »

Thank for quick response deviator. No rainbow on coolant, oil is clean on dipstick. Footwells are dry. Coolant looks the right colour, smells 'normal', odourless.

terry paget · « **Reply #3 on:** 01 July 2015, 10:57:10 »

Here are the plugs.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rz311oabz2cpwlb/PLUGS50%25.jpg?dl=0

deviator · « **Reply #4 on:** 01 July 2015, 11:00:43 »

Is that coolant? It looks more like oil.

Shallow Al · « **Reply #5 on:** 01 July 2015, 11:43:29 »

Does the coolant system froth up, and does it overpressure. Can feel it by squeezing top hose.
Those were symptoms when my old 2 litre HG went.
It showed no sign of oil/water mixing , just coolant loss, no external leaks and a misfire on number four, but in my case only when cold.
Did the head gasket, very plain where it failed once apart.

terry paget · « **Reply #6 on:** 01 July 2015, 11:53:59 »

Quote from: deviator on 01 July 2015, 11:00:43

Is that coolant? It looks more like oil.

I agree. It glistens on the central insulator, but is still damp after 2 hours. New pic.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/254w4s1k23b9qge/plugs2.50%25.jpg?dl=0
But if not head gasket, where is all the water going?

terry paget · « **Reply #7 on:** 01 July 2015, 12:00:38 »

Quote from: Shallow Al on 01 July 2015, 11:43:29

Does the coolant system froth up, and does it overpressure. Can feel it by squeezing top hose.
Those were symptoms when my old 2 litre HG went.
It showed no sign of oil/water mixing , just coolant loss, no external leaks and a misfire on number four, but in my case only when cold.
Did the head gasket, very plain where it failed once apart.

My son did report frothing. When I removed the header tank cap it did seem to be under high pressure.
Perhaps I should put back the plugs and let it idle for an hour, see if the hose pressurises, and if any water gets out anywhere obvious. I can't think fo any reason why I should not.

tunnie · « **Reply #8 on:** 01 July 2015, 12:23:47 »

Traditionally 2.2 HG failures cause a miss-fire when cold, not hot. Coolant seeps in when the engine cools, starts with water in the bore. Miss-fires and burns it off to then run ok.

The plugs do look covered in oil, how did oil get on them? Could be cam cover gasket is leaking oil into the plugs, if they were not torqued down right could be getting into the bore?

From photo even top of the plug has oil on it?

terry paget · « **Reply #9 on:** 01 July 2015, 12:49:32 »

Quote from: tunnie on 01 July 2015, 12:23:47

Traditionally 2.2 HG failures cause a miss-fire when cold, not hot. Coolant seeps in when the engine cools, starts with water in the bore. Miss-fires and burns it off to then run ok.

The plugs do look covered in oil, how did oil get on them? Could be cam cover gasket is leaking oil into the plugs, if they were not torqued down right could be getting into the bore?

From photo even top of the plug has oil on it?

There was no oil in plug holes. I fitted these plugs about a year ago, with some copper ease grease on the threads. I agree there is some oil on no. 4 plug, do not know where it came from.
I would expect misfire on start up, not when hot. I merely report as I observed. Maybe the fault is not head gasket. I am certainly loosing lots of coolant, a tank full in 25 miles. There is no sign of it anywhere!
I will replace the plugs, run it at idle, and watch. I will report back. Thanks to all for advice.

tunnie · « **Reply #10 on:** 01 July 2015, 12:55:45 »

That is a lot of coolant $:-\$

EMD · « **Reply #11 on:** 01 July 2015, 13:03:08 »

Quote from: terry paget on 01 July 2015, 11:53:59

Quote from: deviator on 01 July 2015, 11:00:43
Is that coolant? It looks more like oil.
I agree. It glistens on the central insulator, but is still damp after 2 hours. New pic.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/254w4s1k23b9qge/plugs2.50%25.jpg?dl=0
But if not head gasket, where is all the water going?

Sounds similar to my 2.0 vectra , the coolant was coming out tail pipe ..

Quote

It might be worth popping into a local garage and getting them to sniff test the coolant.

terry paget · « **Reply #12 on:** 01 July 2015, 15:00:23 »

Replaced plugs, topped up header tank, and ran it until low coolant light came on (60 minutes). Moved car, looked for puddles, none to be seen. Footwell carpets still bone dry.
While running I felt top hose, it was rock hard. I am a bit surprised nothing burst, but I suppose the header tank cap blows off at a certain pressure.
I conclude my header gasket is leaking between no. 4 cylinder and a water channel. I hope you all agree. If not, please say so.
Problem now is what to do next.

Steve B · « **Reply #13 on:** 01 July 2015, 15:12:47 »

Hi terry.Just curious ..What miles are on the clock.& Any idea of antifreeze history

terry paget · « **Reply #14 on:** 01 July 2015, 17:44:15 »

I bought the car 29 Aug 2013, mileage 62500. I changed cam belt pulleys water pump and coolant then, using 50/50 GM Dex-Cool.Topped up with the same occasionally, changed HBV June 2014.

terry paget · « **Reply #15 on:** 01 July 2015, 17:45:18 »

Mileage today is 80921.

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #16 on:** 01 July 2015, 18:25:40 »

You could go to a garage and have them do a sniff test as mentioned before. But for around £30 you can buy a block test kit online and do it yourself. . . You then have the kit in your tool arsenal to use again if needed.

Steve B · « **Reply #17 on:** 01 July 2015, 18:55:22 »

Quote from: terry paget on 01 July 2015, 17:45:18

Mileage today is 80921.

Well in the window for HG on a 2.2

4x4 · « **Reply #18 on:** 01 July 2015, 19:56:21 »

Change hg no point doung more tests,normally around the 4 cylinder it goes.

terry paget · « **Reply #19 on:** 01 July 2015, 19:59:45 »

Are the 2.2s known to be prone to HG failure? I only had one HG failure over ten Senators. This is my first HG failure on 20 or more Omegas. I prefer the V6 omegas, I have never had an emissions failure on a V6, I have had half a dozen on in-line fours.

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #20 on:** 01 July 2015, 20:28:11 »

Test it using this terry. . . .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/161264351429?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=t&rlsatarget=&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fipn%253Dicep%2526icep_id%253D67%2526mtid%253D1673%2526kwid%253D1%2526crlp%253D50600204586_563391%2526icep_item_id%253D161264351429%2526itemid%253D161264351429%2526icep_meta_categ_id%253D131090%2526icep_etrs%253DY%2526icep_epid%253D-999%2526icep_ctlg%253D-999%2526icep_cond%253DNew%2526targetid%253D75951454506%2526rlsatarget%253D%2526rpc%253D0.16%2526rpc_upld_id%253D51777%2526device%253Dt%2526icep_msku_flag%253Dn%2526icep_cbt%253Dn%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526gclid%253DCMiZ6OzUusYCFeiE2wodAcQDOg%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D859268960699

And as said you'll have the kit to keep for a few more diagnoses in future

tunnie · « **Reply #21 on:** 01 July 2015, 20:41:06 »

180k here on my 2.2, never changed the HG

Steve B · « **Reply #22 on:** 01 July 2015, 20:50:36 »

Quote from: terry paget on 01 July 2015, 19:59:45

Are the 2.2s known to be prone to HG failure? I only had one HG failure over ten Senators. This is my first HG failure on 20 or more Omegas. I prefer the V6 omegas, I have never had an emissions failure on a V6, I have had half a dozen on in-line fours.

Yes very common on here

And it sounds like yours is the same.

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #23 on:** 01 July 2015, 20:57:26 »

It doesn't matter what others have done, what the norm is etc.

diagnose the car in question

Steve B · « **Reply #24 on:** 01 July 2015, 21:01:39 »

Quote from: Webby the Bear on 01 July 2015, 20:57:26

It doesn't matter what others have done, what the norm is etc.

diagnose the car in question

He Did

....Where is all the coolant going then .. ?

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #25 on:** 01 July 2015, 21:05:50 »

Steve B · « **Reply #26 on:** 01 July 2015, 21:12:30 »

RobG Had a picture of exactly where on the HG is the weak spot

RobG · « **Reply #27 on:** 01 July 2015, 21:14:57 »

Steve B · « **Reply #28 on:** 01 July 2015, 21:16:26 »

Thats the one rob

Did you strip yours down in the end or just get shut

Edit.... You got shut and got the CDX

terry paget · « **Reply #29 on:** 08 July 2015, 10:39:22 »

Prices in maintenance guide made me think the car was not worth repairing. Then I found this. Can it be any good?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-OPEL-FRONTERA-B-OMEGA-2-2-16V-98-05-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-VRS-HOLDEN-/130969982217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e7e6b5509

tunnie · « **Reply #30 on:** 08 July 2015, 12:01:29 »

If DIY I think HG change is worth it, my 2.2 is on borrowed time. 180k and its never been changed. I've been proactive on coolant maintenance, change at least every 2 years. I can't do HG myself, so have to get help on it. But when it fails even paying OOF mechanics for it will be worth it.

Worth considering all other investment and what's known. As replacement car, you don't know its history.

Peterskinn · « **Reply #31 on:** 08 July 2015, 16:07:35 »

Hi All,

If you follow my thread on "Auto Gearbox Problems" you'll see that - having solved the one problem the HG is now looking like the culprit for a persistent misfire.

Symptoms are very similar to those described and Plug No 3 on my engine looks identical to the pics.

Mine's done 90K and I had already spotted that the coolant was lacking in anti-freeze. Suspect I've just been unlucky with a variety of faults at the same time.

The same Ebay kit is on order and my local garage is poised to start disassembly tomorrow............

terry paget · « **Reply #32 on:** 08 July 2015, 18:00:16 »

In SIR Phillbutt's maintenance guide on replacing head gasket on a 2.2, he instructs 'have cylinder head skimmed (compulsory) and tested'. When i changed the cylinder head gasket on my daughter-in-law's Rover Streetwise in January, I laid a straight edge along the head, it looked good, so I reassembled with new gasket without more ado. Is the head skim really compulsory?

Webby the Bear · « **Reply #33 on:** 08 July 2015, 18:04:25 »

If the cylinder head isn't warped and you confirm this via straight edge and feeler gauge AND there's nothing else of concern (no broken valves for example) then I would polish the mating surface and leave it at that.

unless of course there's something bizarre about the omega 2.2?

SIR Philbutt · « **Reply #34 on:** 08 July 2015, 18:17:22 »

Quote from: terry paget on 08 July 2015, 18:00:16

In SIR Phillbutt's maintenance guide on replacing head gasket on a 2.2, he instructs 'have cylinder head skimmed (compulsory) and tested'. When i changed the cylinder head gasket on my daughter-in-law's Rover Streetwise in January, I laid a straight edge along the head, it looked good, so I reassembled with new gasket without more ado. Is the head skim really compulsory?

That was stated as have to state, if not said someone wont and you never know

I took mine to the skimming chap and he measured first, found to be slightly out so had it skimmed anyway. Mine had actually gone bone dry and overheated before I noticed, as I was motorway driving. Best off being at least tested for warp at least, IMO

He also pressure tested it and that gives peace of mind

Don't get a cheapo head set kit. I did that the first time and that's why there was a second 18 months later. GM has to be 1st port of call but as an alternative Jason at AllGermanParts will sort you out

HTH
Phil

terry paget · « **Reply #35 on:** 08 July 2015, 20:55:48 »

Quote from: tunnie on 08 July 2015, 12:01:29

If DIY I think HG change is worth it, my 2.2 is on borrowed time. 180k and its never been changed. I've been proactive on coolant maintenance, change at least every 2 years. I can't do HG myself, so have to get help on it. But when it fails even paying OOF mechanics for it will be worth it.

Worth considering all other investment and what's known. As replacement car, you don't know its history.

As you say, replacement cars are always a gamble. I bought a 2001 2.6CDX in May or £595, needed wishbones, drop links, track rods and cam belt, now it's a great car. I bought a 2000 2.5CDX estate last Saturday for £257; it turned out to be a PFL, but it drove well, needed new exhaust, still needs door strap and header tank, but otherwise fine; probably needs cam belt too.
Now I learn I could change my 2.2 HG for £40 if nothing goes wrong, on a car I know is otherwise fine. Needs a new MAF sensor too.

News:

Author Topic: 2.2 loosing coolant - head gasket? (Read 4998 times)

4x4