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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 16:40:11

Title: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 16:40:11
It looks as though something might be on the table. I hope so, I really do. But, no doubt, every Tom, Dick and Harry in the house will want their tuppence worth.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 13 November 2018, 16:43:38
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 13 November 2018, 16:45:26
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y

The way this fiasco has panned out , don't hold your breath.😁
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 16:49:37
Its a shambles. Get rid of Mayhem and put someone in charge who has a clue what they are doing.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 13 November 2018, 16:50:48
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y

........with a deal that nobody is very excited about, and not the 'brave new world' we were promised. :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 13 November 2018, 16:54:20
Its a shambles. Get rid of Mayhem and put someone in charge who has a clue what they are doing.

Do you mean JRM?

A bit of white powder for his face and he is ideally placed to play a 'Dickensian ghoul' over the Christmas period. :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 16:58:09
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y

........with a deal that nobody is very excited about, and not the 'brave new world' we were promised. :-X
To be honest, Opti, I'm sick of the whole thing. Only idealists and idiots would think that we were going to get true isolation, surely? The countries of the world are linked together in so many ways, the only way we could truly stand alone is to go back to the Stone Age.

It would be sad if we had to sacrifice Northern Ireland but, hey ho, if that's the price. Been nice knowing you, Albs.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 16:59:44
Now....Wales and Scotland are a bit of a financial drain too.......hmmmmmm. :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 13 November 2018, 17:03:50
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y

........with a deal that nobody is very excited about, and not the 'brave new world' we were promised. :-X
To be honest, Opti, I'm sick of the whole thing. Only idealists and idiots would think that we were going to get true isolation, surely? The countries of the world are linked together in so many ways, the only way we could truly stand alone is to go back to the Stone Age.

It would be sad if we had to sacrifice Northern Ireland but, hey ho, if that's the price. Been nice knowing you, Albs.  ;D

I think you are largely correct.......

So the reason we are paying 39 billion to leave the EU is what, exactly? ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 13 November 2018, 17:08:21
So, if it gets nodded through by the cabinet, the house of commons, doesn't upset the DUP and doesn't get vetoed by any EU member states, we're sorted? :y

........with a deal that nobody is very excited about, and not the 'brave new world' we were promised. :-X
To be honest, Opti, I'm sick of the whole thing. Only idealists and idiots would think that we were going to get true isolation, surely? The countries of the world are linked together in so many ways, the only way we could truly stand alone is to go back to the Stone Age.

It would be sad if we had to sacrifice Northern Ireland but, hey ho, if that's the price. Been nice knowing you, Albs.  ;D

He'll be fine. Rumour has it Mrs Albitz is buying him a 'I LOVE SEBASTIAN VETTEL T-shirt for Christmas. That'll cheer him up. :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 13 November 2018, 17:13:28
I suspect that our nice shiny new blue passports will have EU Subject written in them instead of British Citizen.  ::)

Still that should please all those nice remainer types.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 13 November 2018, 17:19:39
Its a shambles. Get rid of Mayhem and put someone in charge who has a clue what they are doing.


Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 17:22:39
I suspect that our nice shiny new blue passports will have EU Subject written in them instead of British Citizen.  ::)

Still that should please all those nice remainer types.  :y
It won't please anyone, Tigger, but it never could. It had the potential to please one group of fanatics or another, but I think that would have led to years of recriminations.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 13 November 2018, 17:26:53
So the reason we are paying 39 billion to leave the EU is what, exactly? ::)

I suspect because some of our provinces, particularly the taffs and the sweatys have had recent, significant EU grants, and that needs paying back.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 17:31:33
So the reason we are paying 39 billion to leave the EU is what, exactly? ::)

I suspect because some of our provinces, particularly the taffs and the sweatys have had recent, significant EU grants, and that needs paying back.
Pension contributions, projects already started or funding promised..........etc.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 13 November 2018, 18:04:14
I think the whole thing has a long long way to run yet. I cannot now see a good outcome. Too much squabbling and vested interests and intractability on the EU’s behalf. It wouldnt surprise me if we roll over and rejoin the EU we never left to be a subservient member and object of derision for years.

I saw the other day that Sanchez ( our Spanish p.m.) said there ought to be a vote in the futiure for the UK about EU membership. If and when there is another vote(s) one hopes a threshold is specified as 51.8 or whatever it was clearly isnt high enough.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 18:07:47
Now....Wales and Scotland are a bit of a financial drain too.......hmmmmmm. :-\

As is the North of England. Us in the south / home counties will all be rich.  ;D
Its nothing to do with isolation and everything to do with sovereignty and self governance - aka democracy.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 18:09:42
Now....Wales and Scotland are a bit of a financial drain too.......hmmmmmm. :-\

As is the North of England. Us in the south / home counties will all be rich.  ;D
Its nothing to do with isolation and everything to do with sovereignty and self governance - aka democracy.  :)
It won't/can't happen. There will always be major ties, esp. to France.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 18:14:29
Nothing wrong with having ties to other countries. Apart from France obviously.  ;D
You don't have to be governed by countries to have links with them.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 18:19:06
Nothing wrong with having ties to other countries. Apart from France obviously.  ;D
You don't have to be governed by countries to have links with them.
Look...we all know it will be a dogs breakfast. There's no way out and there's no way back. I just want it over.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 13 November 2018, 18:35:05
I'm guessing there is suddenly more uncertainty that we won't back out of the whole leaving shebang, as I notice over the last 4 or 5 days, the BBC have been highlighting immigration again, and misreporting some of the Polish Independence celebrations....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 18:49:13
Its a shambles. Get rid of Mayhem and put someone in charge who has a clue what they are doing.


Any suggestions?

Of the possible suspects - David Davis, as a caretaker PM until the dust has settled a bit.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 18:50:40
So the reason we are paying 39 billion to leave the EU is what, exactly? ::)

I suspect because some of our provinces, particularly the taffs and the sweatys have had recent, significant EU grants, and that needs paying back.

But those grants were just returning some of the money we had already paid, but with the added instructions of how they should be spent.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 18:54:36
Lets turn this on it's head. If you were French or German, would you want us as members of your club? I certainly wouldn't. A snotty little country, with a superiority complex, that can't treat its sick or look after its old people. One who's education system is in meltdown and who's social care is beyond a joke.
Yeah, we're a right catch, aren't we?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 18:56:07
Im a firm believer in walking away without a deal, then trading with the EU on WTO terms the same as we do with most of the rest of the world, and the same way they trade with most of the ret of the world.
It wouldn't take too long of imposing a 10% tax on German / French / Italian / Spanish cars (for example) before their business people kicked their politicians up the arse and told them to get a proper trade deal sorted in a hurry.
I suspect Mayhem has already done a deal with Barnier and what we are seeing now is a soap opera, which is supposed to fool people into buying into their BRINO.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 19:00:24
Lets turn this on it's head. If you were French or German, would you want us as members of your club? I certainly wouldn't. A snotty little country, with a superiority complex, that can't treat its sick or look after its old people. One who's education system is in meltdown and who's social care is beyond a joke.
Yeah, we're a right catch, aren't we?

Too right I would, due to the amount of money they fleece us for. As for snotty countries with superiority complexes. No-one can compete with the French or Germans on that score.
A major part of the reason we cant treat our sick,  look after our old, and our education and social care is in meltdown is because Christ knows how  millions ofEU citizens (and others) have been allowed to swarm into this snotty little country and pushed public services beyond breaking point due to the sheers extra numbers.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 19:34:07
Lets turn this on it's head. If you were French or German, would you want us as members of your club? I certainly wouldn't. A snotty little country, with a superiority complex, that can't treat its sick or look after its old people. One who's education system is in meltdown and who's social care is beyond a joke.
Yeah, we're a right catch, aren't we?

Too right I would, due to the amount of money they fleece us for. As for snotty countries with superiority complexes. No-one can compete with the French or Germans on that score.
A major part of the reason we cant treat our sick,  look after our old, and our education and social care is in meltdown is because Christ knows how  millions ofEU citizens (and others) have been allowed to swarm into this snotty little country and pushed public services beyond breaking point due to the sheers extra numbers.
Not french or german citizens, they have their own public services. So you must mean Eastern Europeans. There must be a reason why they came here and not mainland Europe, surely?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 19:39:42
More generous social security and public services I suppose. It isn't just Eastern Europeans who came though. There are quite a lot of French, Spanish and Portugese people living in and around London these days.
I notice that the start of the slowdown of EU folk coming over has coincided with the start of the easing of wage compression.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 19:43:57
More generous social security and public services I suppose. It isn't just Eastern Europeans who came though. There are quite a lot of French, Spanish and Portugese people living in and around London these days.
I notice that the start of the slowdown of EU folk coming over has coincided with the start of the easing of wage compression.
London is the fourth largest city in France by population. That isn't going to change. If it did, London would stop. As it would without Asians, or Africans, or Eastern Europeans. It's too late to start being patriotic, I'm afraid, we've been pwned  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 13 November 2018, 19:46:57
It wouldn't take too long of imposing a 10% tax on German / French / Italian / Spanish cars (for example) before their business people kicked their politicians up the arse and told them to get a proper trade deal sorted in a hurry.
I suspect they wouldn't give 2 hoots about this insignificant bit of rock in the North Sea.  Now our business people are kicking up a stick, because our businesses definitely do need those pesky European markets. Real bad.  And that's why it was never, ever, ever going to be a no deal break. Ever.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 19:51:11
Anyway, Albs, what's it got to do with You? You'll be deported, to the other side of "The border down the Irish Sea".  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 19:54:06
More generous social security and public services I suppose. It isn't just Eastern Europeans who came though. There are quite a lot of French, Spanish and Portugese people living in and around London these days.
I notice that the start of the slowdown of EU folk coming over has coincided with the start of the easing of wage compression.
London is the fourth largest city in France by population. That isn't going to change. If it did, London would stop. As it would without Asians, or Africans, or Eastern Europeans. It's too late to start being patriotic, I'm afraid, we've been pwned  ;D

Im not arguing that anyone should be kicked out. Just that we cant allow unlimited numbers to keep coming indefinitely.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 19:55:44
It wouldn't take too long of imposing a 10% tax on German / French / Italian / Spanish cars (for example) before their business people kicked their politicians up the arse and told them to get a proper trade deal sorted in a hurry.
I suspect they wouldn't give 2 hoots about this insignificant bit of rock in the North Sea.  Now our business people are kicking up a stick, because our businesses definitely do need those pesky European markets. Real bad.  And that's why it was never, ever, ever going to be a no deal break. Ever.

Apparently its the biggest export market in the world for German cars.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 13 November 2018, 19:56:31
Anyway, Albs, what's it got to do with You? You'll be deported, to the other side of "The border down the Irish Sea".  ;D

Will they pay me lots of your money to far cough ?  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 19:58:52
Anyway, Albs, what's it got to do with You? You'll be deported, to the other side of "The border down the Irish Sea".  ;D

Will they pay me lots of your money to far cough ?  :)
No. You'll be taken to Liverpool and put on a ferry with a one way ticket.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 20:00:17
It wouldn't take too long of imposing a 10% tax on German / French / Italian / Spanish cars (for example) before their business people kicked their politicians up the arse and told them to get a proper trade deal sorted in a hurry.
I suspect they wouldn't give 2 hoots about this insignificant bit of rock in the North Sea.  Now our business people are kicking up a stick, because our businesses definitely do need those pesky European markets. Real bad.  And that's why it was never, ever, ever going to be a no deal break. Ever.

Apparently its the biggest export market in the world for German cars.  ;)
But not the country that takes most German cars. They build factories in those countries.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 13 November 2018, 20:44:52
Lets turn this on it's head. If you were French or German, would you want us as members of your club? I certainly wouldn't. A snotty little country, with a superiority complex, that can't treat its sick or look after its old people. One who's education system is in meltdown and who's social care is beyond a joke.
Yeah, we're a right catch, aren't we?

Do you genuinely believe all or any of those are better in the other 27 countries? There may be serious  problems and care is a time bomb waiting to go off but the UK systems are still pretty good.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 13 November 2018, 21:33:23
I am genuinely pleased that something seems o be on the table at last. And, like STEMO, I will be even more pleased when I no longer have to hear about any of it, ever again.

If the deal ends up displeasing Nigel farage, that will be the cherry on the cake.  8)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 13 November 2018, 21:57:41
Lets turn this on it's head. If you were French or German, would you want us as members of your club? I certainly wouldn't. A snotty little country, with a superiority complex, that can't treat its sick or look after its old people. One who's education system is in meltdown and who's social care is beyond a joke.
Yeah, we're a right catch, aren't we?

You're right Uncle STEMO there are those in the EU who will be glad to see the back of us. Not because we are a snotty little country with a superiority complex, but because we have been a thorn in the side of the EU federalists for the last 40 years and where we have wielded our veto to put the brakes on further integration, the Scandinavians, the Dutch and more recently some of the Eastern European countries have generally followed.  :y

Notice how in the last few days the subject of the EU Army has cropped up again from Macron over the weekend and Merkel today in the EU Parliament.  One French minister was even talking about an EU Empire the other day!  :o  ::) 

I don't know about you lot, but I find the idea of a militerised EU quite a scary prospect, especially with the unaccountable aspect of the organisation.  People get hysterical about Trump having his finger on the button, but what about the idea of Drunker having his finger on France's the EU's nuclear button?  :-X

They are unlikely to admit it, but the EU is losing a fair bit of international prestige with BREXIT as they are losing the worlds 5/6th biggest economy, one of two permanent members of the UN security council, one of the few nuclear powers and a country that wields significant influence around the world.  I read recently that Singapore is looking at renegotiating their trade deal with the EU after BREXIT as it won't be as attractive without the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 13 November 2018, 22:09:45
Cancel all my previous optimism, it looks like Mother Theresa has got zero chance of convincing anyone to back this plan. We hadn't talked about it for a while and I'm sorry I resurrected it now.

Glum of Barnsley.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 13 November 2018, 22:36:38
Probably not, but she may do 12 iterations down the line, deadline looming when she's come up a completely different, yet shockingly similar looking plan.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 13 November 2018, 22:57:39
No , Wednesday she will have acabinet meeting then the legal side will start to dribble out. Westminster will vote it down as lets face it no plan will be any good.

Then what ? A General Election?  Sir Starmer will put forward his plan which will have so many red lines that you wont be able to read any of it.

Farage will pop up like one of those fairground gophers you hit with a hammer.

Pound will slide. Business will start to wobble with the added years of uncertainty.

Vince Cable will call for a referendum with ten possible boxes.

David Cameron decides not to make a politics comeback

Article 50 will be extended by both sides to allow more jollies sorry talks.

Years will go by.  Everyone will be fed up of even more media coverage
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 13 November 2018, 23:23:00
Or we just leave on the 29th March, save a big chunk of the £39 Billion and find that lots of mini deals happen very quickly so things still work.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 14 November 2018, 06:13:20
Or we just leave on the 29th March, save a big chunk of the £39 Billion and find that lots of mini deals happen very quickly so things still work.  :)
.


That's one hell of a get out clause, let's hope before any government agrees to any involvement of any kind they fully understand what is involved, always read the small print otherwise you will be taken for a mug just like the UK has been
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 12:40:23
Brexit as I understand it is a situation where......

1....We won't pay billions  to the EU each year, and we certainly won't pay 39 billion to leave. :)

2...We will not be part of ANY customs union. :)

3....The 350 million we save each week by not paying the EU will go to the NHS. :)

4.... We will trade freely with the rest of the world. :)

5....The EU will have no control of our laws. :)

6.....The EU 27 will collectively 'drop to their knees' and give us everything we demand......because they need us more than we need them. :)

7.....We will take back control and give the EU a bloody nose. They'll know not to mess with us again. :)




Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 14 November 2018, 12:42:00
I think that neatly sums it up.

I wait with bated breath. 
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 12:51:56
Cancel all my previous optimism, it looks like Mother Theresa has got zero chance of convincing anyone to back this plan. We hadn't talked about it for a while and I'm sorry I resurrected it now.

Glum of Barnsley.

Don't be too hard on yourself.

It can't be easy to be upbeat and optimistic whilst living in Barnsley. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 12:58:20
Brexit as I understand it is a situation where......

1....We won't pay billions  to the EU each year, and we certainly won't pay 39 billion to leave. :)

2...We will not be part of ANY customs union. :)

3....The 350 million we save each week by not paying the EU will go to the NHS. :)

4.... We will trade freely with the rest of the world. :)

5....The EU will have no control of our laws. :)

6.....The EU 27 will collectively 'drop to their knees' and give us everything we demand......because they need us more than we need them. :)

7.....We will take back control and give the EU a bloody nose. They'll know not to mess with us again. :)
I agree with all of that :y

Except, maybe, points 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 13:05:36
Brexit as I understand it is a situation where......

1....We won't pay billions  to the EU each year, and we certainly won't pay 39 billion to leave. :)

2...We will not be part of ANY customs union. :)

3....The 350 million we save each week by not paying the EU will go to the NHS. :)

4.... We will trade freely with the rest of the world. :)

5....The EU will have no control of our laws. :)

6.....The EU 27 will collectively 'drop to their knees' and give us everything we demand......because they need us more than we need them. :)

7.....We will take back control and give the EU a bloody nose. They'll know not to mess with us again. :)
I agree with all of that :y

Except, maybe, points 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7.  :)

Living in Barnsley with all those  'untrustworthy dark foreign types' has made you disagreeable. :)

.......or am I getting Barnsley confused with Bradford? :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 14 November 2018, 13:07:35
None of the chatter really matters. Its highly unlikely her deal will get through the commons, as it seems designed to piss off everyone on all sides.
Hopefully the Tories will finally grow a pair and get rid of her after the commons vote, then it all starts over again.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 13:10:35
None of the chatter really matters. Its highly unlikely her deal will get through the commons, as it seems designed to piss off everyone on all sides.
Hopefully the Tories will finally grow a pair and get rid of her after the commons vote, then it all starts over again.

I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going exactly to plan. :)

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migalot on 14 November 2018, 13:12:15
Why would anyone in their right mind want to be part of the EU "Empire" (in the words of the French finance minister) with its own army. What trade bloc needs an army? Who do they intend fighting, unless it's recalcitrant Europeans like the Hungarians, Italians, Slovaks, Poles, etc.

The EU is also hopelessly undemocratic. Anyone on here vote for Junker or Verhofstadt? No, thought not.

Just wait until you find that there is no new individual content on YouTube owing to the EU's impending copyright rules. Oh, and wait until all vehicles require insurance whether or not they are used on public roads (you can thank an aggrieved Slovenia farmer for that).

Oh, and does anyone think that the EU's GDPR laws are anything but a waste of time and money?

The main thing is that the multinational/global corporations (so loved by the left ;) ) think it's wonderful as it stifles competition and helps the fat cats line their pockets.

Essentially, the EU is a pile of poo and, like the former Yugoslavia and Soviet Union, will eventually fall apart – probably with similar amounts of violence. However, by then, the UK as we once knew it, will be unrecognisable.

Still, as long as people don't need to queue at airports, that's all that matters.  ::) ::)   
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 November 2018, 13:18:36
None of the chatter really matters. Its highly unlikely her deal will get through the commons, as it seems designed to piss off everyone on all sides.
Hopefully the Tories will finally grow a pair and get rid of her after the commons vote, then it all starts over again.

I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going exactly to plan. :)

Plan? :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 13:19:28
I just couldn't care less any more. Perhaps this was May's plan all along, beat us into apathy.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 November 2018, 13:21:04
I just couldn't care less any more. Perhaps this was May's plan all along, beat us into apathy.
There it is again!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 13:23:49
I just couldn't care less any more. Perhaps this was May's plan all along, beat us into apathy.
There it is again!
;D ;D

Or..perhaps her plan is to push her party into sacking her, so she can retire to obscurity, with a nice few bob and a sense of relief.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 13:28:42
I just couldn't care less any more. Perhaps this was May's plan all along, beat us into apathy.
There it is again!

There is a plan. A cunning plan devised by a certain Mr Baldrick based on his personal experience of life in the trenches during WW1. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 November 2018, 13:40:56
I suspect that in a decade when Mrs May is gone and has left this country as effectively a colony of the EU thanks to her efforts.  News will emerge that she has been living in a splendid Villa on the Riviera, Amalfi Coast, Algarve or somewhere equally glamorous on the continent.  :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 14 November 2018, 13:51:49
I suspect that in a decade when Mrs May is gone and has left this country as effectively a colony of the EU thanks to her efforts.  News will emerge that she has been living in a splendid Villa on the Riviera, Amalfi Coast, Algarve or somewhere equally glamorous on the continent.  :-X

Abandoned goat farm in the hills of Extramadura. in inland Spain would be more appropriate.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 November 2018, 13:55:18
The truth is that amidst all the hysteria, there are only a few so far who have seen the so called deal!  ::)

The omens are not good though given all the consessions she's made so far......

IE.

UK: If we don't get a good deal, we cannot guarantee to cooperate on security.
EU: That's not very nice.
UK: Oh sorry. Of course we will guarantee to cooperate with Europe's security whatever the outcome.
EU: Thanks, but you can't use Galileo.

 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 14 November 2018, 14:13:04
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/northern-ireland-re-named-west-belgium-in-brexit-deal-20181114179420
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 14 November 2018, 14:21:41
I suspect that in a decade when Mrs May is gone and has left this country as effectively a colony of the EU thanks to her efforts.  News will emerge that she has been living in a splendid Villa on the Riviera, Amalfi Coast, Algarve or somewhere equally glamorous on the continent.  :-X

.. with a massive pension from Brussels thanks to shuffling papers around there for a few years after her banishment from UK politics, naturally.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 14:48:36
I'm starting to understand her angle now. Smart lady.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 17:21:44
This cabinet meeting is dragging on a bit. Either a few heads being banged together or a resignation letter being written.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 14 November 2018, 18:30:35
This cabinet meeting is dragging on a bit. Either a few heads being banged together or a resignation letter being written.

They may as well all agree with Theresa and keep their jobs knowing it will be defeated in parliament.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 14 November 2018, 19:02:12
In the restaurants and bars at the EU parliament today, Euro MP,s having been openly, laughing at and deriding the British MEP,s, and taking the piss about the way the UK has been stitched up.  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 19:25:14
All in agreement then. Yeah..like fluck.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 14 November 2018, 21:40:18
She is a survivor, but when the commons kills her agreement its hard to see how she can cling on after that.  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 14 November 2018, 22:00:24
She is a survivor, but when the commons kills her agreement its hard to see how she can cling on after that.  ???
The way things are going, I wouldn't even bank on that. I'm either missing something or I'm stupid.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 14 November 2018, 23:02:09
In the restaurants and bars at the EU parliament today, Euro MP,s having been openly, laughing at and deriding the British MEP,s, and taking the piss about the way the UK has been stitched itself up.  >:(


Fixed that for you.
And of course they're laughing at us, that's what happens when somebody else oppss up on such a monumental scale.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 14 November 2018, 23:19:03
On what has come out so far staying in the EU is looking a better deal than Checkers. :o

Academic methinks.  The big question is if May has to go how can the 1922 committe put forward candidates for the party faithful ( including MigV6) to vote on? What do they choose Brexiteer or Remainer?  Split the party in two and hand the job to Corbyn....

As Rods2 says , get the popcorn in and sit back.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 00:08:20
In the restaurants and bars at the EU parliament today, Euro MP,s having been openly, laughing at and deriding the British MEP,s, and taking the piss about the way the UK has been stitched itself up.  >:(


Fixed that for you.
And of course they're laughing at us, that's what happens when somebody else oppss up on such a monumental scale.

And how exactly, did anyone imagine it would go any differently? Where we are arriving at has been the painfully obvious destination for some time. The EU could never allow us a deal that was better than being in. Otherwise the whole house of cards falls in on itself.

How anyone could argue that it's an institution of unelected self interested bureaucrats and simultaneously argue that we could bring sufficient political pressure to bear on them to get a "good deal" (definition unspecified) has been beyond me since the inglorious pig fu£ker put the question to the same group of people who gave us Boaty McBoatface.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 00:25:47
If our negotiators had dug their heels in a bit, then the EU giving us a bad deal would have hurt them just the same as it would hurt us.
As it stands, we have given in to their demands every step of the way, so they have everything they want without needing to compromise.
Olly Robins should be charged with treason.
Only course of action now is to accept she has wasted two years, install a Brexiteer as PM, and walk away. Deal with them under WTO terms and see who blinks first in asking for a trade deal.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 01:26:54
Olly Robins should be charged with treason.


He's more likely to get a peerage and all the trappings.  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 08:09:52
If our negotiators had dug their heels in a bit, then the EU giving us a bad deal would have hurt them just the same as it would hurt us.
As it stands, we have given in to their demands every step of the way, so they have everything they want without needing to compromise.
Olly Robins should be charged with treason.
Only course of action now is to accept she has wasted two years, install a Brexiteer as PM, and walk away. Deal with them under WTO terms and see who blinks first in asking for a trade deal.
This was the only ever viable 'deal'... The EU never would/could have agreed to anything on the table.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 08:55:38
Dominic Raab has just resigned.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 09:56:29
Brexit Secretary seems like a non-job to me and I think that Dominic Raab has been little more than Theresa May and Olly Robbins messenger boy.  ::)

He started out with good intentions saying things like the EU wouldn't get the £39 Billion for nothing, but I expect Barnier complained to Mother Theresa and he got his bottom spanked!  ::)

A future PM perhaps?  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 10:01:39
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 15 November 2018, 10:17:53
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)

So we can have a GE and Corbyn?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 15 November 2018, 10:32:13
She's a disgrace .
Get her to f**k.
She and her cretinous ,devious and incompetant playgroup should hang their heads in collective shame and be pilloried for eternity by the MAJORITY of British people who asked only for the right to govern their own country without external unelected influence.
You don't take a knife to a gunfight , you take some silver doubles and a shotgun .

And as for a GE and Corbyn ... well maybe that's just what the country deserves .


Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 10:46:54
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)

So we can have a GE and Corbyn?

No. Governments last five years, unless two thirds of MP,s vote to dissolve them and hold an election.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 10:49:01
She's a disgrace .
Get her to f**k.
She and her cretinous ,devious and incompetant playgroup should hang their heads in collective shame and be pilloried for eternity by the MAJORITY of British people who asked only for the right to govern their own country without external unelected influence.
You don't take a knife to a gunfight , you take some silver doubles and a shotgun .

And as for a GE and Corbyn ... well maybe that's just what the country deserves .

Ive just listened to her statement to the house and now listening to Corbyns response. He is actually making more sense than she did.
You couldn't make this sh1t up.  :o
She is John Major in a skirt.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 15 November 2018, 10:49:21
No. Governments last five years, unless two thirds of MP,s vote to dissolve them and hold an election.

What if they've all quit and we have no MPs left on one side of the house?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 10:49:59
No. Governments last five years, unless two thirds of MP,s vote to dissolve them and hold an election.

What if they've all quit and we have no MPs left on one side of the house?
No one would notice :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 10:50:58
That said, what's the modern version of a civil war?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 11:04:15
That said, what's the modern version of a civil war?
Facebook.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 11:06:29
Not sure that would achieve much :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 11:09:04
Not sure that would achieve much :-\
I don't know, but Donald runs America on Twitter.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 15 November 2018, 11:11:38
She's a disgrace .
Get her to f**k.
She and her cretinous ,devious and incompetant playgroup should hang their heads in collective shame and be pilloried for eternity by the MAJORITY of British people who asked only for the right to govern their own country without external unelected influence.
You don't take a knife to a gunfight , you take some silver doubles and a shotgun .

And as for a GE and Corbyn ... well maybe that's just what the country deserves .

Ive just listened to her statement to the house and now listening to Corbyns response. He is actually making more sense than she did.
You couldn't make this sh1t up.  :o
She is John Major in a skirt. ::)

Nah , according to Edwina, Major had a pair of balls .
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 11:20:41
Not sure that would achieve much :-\
I don't know, but Donald runs America on Twitter.
True, but he was at least elected...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 15 November 2018, 11:26:56
That said, what's the modern version of a civil war?
Facebook.

Someone I know just posted this image on Facebook with "View out of my window right now #brexit #brokeit #leavinghome #changingname #fakedowndeath #dontlookforneimgone #whichwaytopanama #canoelife":

(https://image.ibb.co/mzD0ef/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)

If we could all just stop overreacting and behaving like the apocalypse is coming, and save our hyperbole for when Trump presses the big red nuke button....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 12:09:09
Aaron, you are right. There was a time that the news reported news. Now it sensationalises what might happen. Endless pundits with their predictions. Whipping the public up into nervous edge of seat exhaustion.


I also think that diplomacy has gone out of the window. The way Trump and Macron have been behaving for example. 


the problem is that the Genie is out of the bottle never to go back in.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 12:29:59
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)
It looks like Gove will be replacing Raab.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 November 2018, 12:34:21
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)
It looks like Gove will be replacing Raab.

An untrustworthy little shit if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 12:42:28
That said, what's the modern version of a civil war?
Facebook.

Someone I know just posted this image on Facebook with "View out of my window right now #brexit #brokeit #leavinghome #changingname #fakedowndeath #dontlookforneimgone #whichwaytopanama #canoelife":

(https://image.ibb.co/mzD0ef/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)


To be fair, that's pretty much like the view from my office window everyday...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 12:46:33
You've just got to admire Mays resilience. She's been batting at the crease for a good few hours now, and no one seems to have delivered a googlie.
She's deranged, of course, but determined.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 November 2018, 13:03:56
You've just got to admire Mays resilience. She's been batting at the crease for a good few hours now, and no one seems to have delivered a googlie.
She's deranged, of course, but determined.

Much like the other bint who had the keys to number 10. ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 15 November 2018, 13:06:46
To be fair, that's pretty much like the view from my office window everyday...

I know where you work .. I think it pretty accurately sums up inside the office, too! ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 November 2018, 13:08:38
Replacing Theresa May won't solve the Brexit problem merely create a new one.

The best option available seems to be some sort of watery submissive compromise. :-\

More little Britain than Great Britain. :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Gaffers on 15 November 2018, 13:15:06
If we could all just stop overreacting and behaving like the apocalypse is coming, and save our hyperbole for when Trump presses the big red nuke button....

^^^ This ^^^

People need to calm to the £$%& down.  This is just the separation, not the divorce.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 13:15:38
To be fair, that's pretty much like the view from my office window everyday...

I know where you work .. I think it pretty accurately sums up inside the office, too! ;D

Very true, there's more than a faint whiff of asbestos about the place. Can't complain too much though, I'm getting a stack of full metal shutter cabinets from the finance office to deck out my new garage  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 13:20:15

the problem is that the Genie is out of the bottle never to go back in.

A friend has been having a go today and told me BREXIT  should just be cancelled, forget the whole thing he said.  ::)

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 13:22:16

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X

I believe, when the boot was on the other foot, that kind of talk was labelled "Project Fear".  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 13:26:33

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X

I believe, when the boot was on the other foot, that kind of talk was labelled "Project Fear".  ;D

Nice try Jimmy!  ;D

Senior EU policitions have already told us that we can remain, but 'it will be a different Europe' for us if we do. So more like Project Reality.....  :P
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 13:29:37

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X

I believe, when the boot was on the other foot, that kind of talk was labelled "Project Fear".  ;D

Nice try Jimmy!  ;D

Senior EU policitions have already told us that we can remain, but 'it will be a different Europe' for us if we do. So more like Project Reality.....  :P

Ahh but you're forgetting, no facts, evidence, expert opinion or counter argument trumps typing Project Fear, PROJECT Fear, PROJECT FEAR!!!!

Much like "You lost, get over it" - its the internet trump card of our times.  :-*

I contend that if we were to back out now, the EU would be so grateful to have us back in the fold that the rebate will grow, they'll allow us to control EU migration and there will be an EU supplied unicorn for every household.

For anyone to state otherwise or claim I am being unrealistic is just scare mongering Project Fear nastiness, and I shall have no truck with it.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 13:42:30
18 months of negotiations. About as much success as trying tohaggle with the automated checkout at Asda. Now if we had that candidate offthe Apprentice wecould have got a cent off .

You are right Sir Tigger to rejoin now the EU we never left would ensure The UK would be subservient forever. This is how it works. Once a naughty child aleays viewed as one. I havent found a sngle Spaniard who can understand why anyone voted to leave. Why would they when the EU has dragged them out of poverty and helped create enviable transport links. Theyconveniently
overlook the euro crisis which has hit hard for ten years

The folk calling for a referendum rerun havent thought it through either. For example what would they do if the result was the same i.e. a narrow leave.? If the t hreshold was set at a min of 65% to be meaningful ( a criticismlevelled After thevote) , what if thevote is 64%?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 14:09:54
Esther McVey has now gone, with Gove tipped to be next.
Appeaser Mayhem could be gone before the weekend.  :)
It looks like Gove will be replacing Raab.

An untrustworthy little shit if ever there was one.

Absolutely.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 14:13:32

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X

I believe, when the boot was on the other foot, that kind of talk was labelled "Project Fear".  ;D

Nice try Jimmy!  ;D

Senior EU policitions have already told us that we can remain, but 'it will be a different Europe' for us if we do. So more like Project Reality.....  :P

Ahh but you're forgetting, no facts, evidence, expert opinion or counter argument trumps typing Project Fear, PROJECT Fear, PROJECT FEAR!!!!

Much like "You lost, get over it" - its the internet trump card of our times.  :-*

I contend that if we were to back out now, the EU would be so grateful to have us back in the fold that the rebate will grow, they'll allow us to control EU migration and there will be an EU supplied unicorn for every household.

For anyone to state otherwise or claim I am being unrealistic is just scare mongering Project Fear nastiness, and I shall have no truck with it.  :y

Cameron ask for those things (apart from the unicorns) and they laughed at him and told him to far cough. They assumed we wouldn't have the audacity to leave.
If we somehow decide to stay,the British army will in the future be just a part of the EU army, and ultimately, under the control of the Germans!
They live on a different planet in their own reality, and still believe they will rule us come what may.
Time will tell.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 15 November 2018, 14:21:42

the problem is that the Genie is out of the bottle never to go back in.

A friend has been having a go today and told me BREXIT  should just be cancelled, forget the whole thing he said.  ::)

My reply that the EU would screw us even more if we try to backtrack, IE the rebate would go, they'd try and force us to take the Euro, and all the opt out's and vetoes would go as well, (all of which would have evenually happened anyway had we voted to remain,) clearly hadn't occurred to him.

I don't think it has to most remain minded people either.  :-X

I've explained to you before why that's rubbish. Yet you continue to peddle it. Why?

We can either unilaterally revoke Art 50, or we cant. The ECJ is apparently due to hear the submissions on Nov 27th, with a ruling expected before Christmas. 

If the ruling is that we can revoke, and we do, then all the existing arrangement remain in place. It's then up to us if we want to give up rebates, opt outs etc in the future. I expect we'd have to contribute to the EU's costs of our failed BRexit, but that's it.

If the ruling is we can't revoke, then we either leave with no deal, leave with some version of the current TM deal.   
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 14:29:48
That sounds very reasonable legally , however when you are dealing with people I would maintain that a marginalised "naughty child" UK versus 27 united countries would soon see whatever changes they wished. At best we would be a second class or possibly in our unique third class as a member country. Human nature is not to forgive and forget however much we might like to believe it is.  At the very least there might be an EU veto put on us to never have another referendum ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 14:32:01

I've explained to you before why that's rubbish. Yet you continue to peddle it. Why?

Ahem...


Ahh but you're forgetting, no facts, evidence, expert opinion or counter argument trumps typing Project Fear, PROJECT Fear, PROJECT FEAR!!!!

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 15 November 2018, 14:32:59
That sounds very reasonable legally , however when you are dealing with people I would maintain that a marginalised "naughty child" UK versus 27 united countries would soon see whatever changes they wished. At best we would be a second class or possibly in our unique third class as a member country. Human nature is not to forgive and forget however much we might like to believe it is.  At the very least there might be an EU veto put on us to never have another referendum ;D ;D

The UK parliament is sovereign. It can hold any referendum it wishes.

And no parliament can bind a future parliament. So even if the current parliament passed a law to ban a future referendum, a future parliament could repeal that law and hold one anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 14:41:56
"The UK Parliament is sovereign"  ::)

How can it be, when the very laws it passes are subservient to the laws of the EU?   ???

Why do you keep peddling this?  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 14:48:50
In fact much of our "Sovereign Parliament's" time is spent rubber stamping EU directives, laws, rules and regulations onto to statute book.  It was estimated by the House of Commons Library that approximately 60% of parliament's time is spent this way.

Now that might be your idea of a Sovereign Parliament, but it sure as hell isn't mine!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 14:58:49
Been out for a walk with the dog, got back, and TM is still Prime Minister! What?????
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 15 November 2018, 15:20:41
18 months of negotiations. About as much success as trying tohaggle with the automated checkout at Asda. Now if we had that candidate offthe Apprentice wecould have got a cent off .

You are right Sir Tigger to rejoin now the EU we never left would ensure The UK would be subservient forever. This is how it works. Once a naughty child aleays viewed as one. I havent found a sngle Spaniard who can understand why anyone voted to leave. Why would they when the EU has dragged them out of poverty and helped create enviable transport links. Theyconveniently
overlook the euro crisis which has hit hard for ten years


The folk calling for a referendum rerun havent thought it through either. For example what would they do if the result was the same i.e. a narrow leave.? If the t hreshold was set at a min of 65% to be meaningful ( a criticismlevelled After thevote) , what if thevote is 64%?

That's Ireland too.
They are a mile beyond ecstatic over here in that their pillow biting immigrant son PM fu**ed the Brits by all but threatening the bomb and bullet again if they even thought about drawing a line on a road.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 15 November 2018, 16:14:48
In fact much of our "Sovereign Parliament's" time is spent rubber stamping EU directives, laws, rules and regulations onto to statute book.  It was estimated by the House of Commons Library that approximately 60% of parliament's time is spent this way.

Now that might be your idea of a Sovereign Parliament, but it sure as hell isn't mine!

Our elected MEP's, the UK government, and the HMG Appointed Commissioners are involved in every step of every EU law. These laws don't get to the point of 'being rubber stamped' until/unless HMG agrees to them. The idea that we are rubber stamping laws into the UK statute book with no say in the process is bogus.

However, even once the laws have been agreed, and entered into the EU rulebook, Parliament is still sovereign. It can vote to obey the the laws it has previously agreed to, or it can vote to scrap the whole lot and leave the EU. What it cannot do is pick and choose which laws it wants to obey, and which it wants to ignore. That's been the leave camps problem all along - they think they can have tariff free trade with the EU, tariff free trade with the rest of the world, and no freedom of EU movement, and no EU financial contribution.

Whilst we are in the EU there is nothing to stop us 'just saying no'. No additional money, no Euro, no EU army, no loss of rebates, no new EU laws, etc. But once we leave, we lose all that, and chances are we'll have to follow any new rules they dream up without having a say in any of it.   
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 16:31:38
18 months of negotiations. About as much success as trying tohaggle with the automated checkout at Asda. Now if we had that candidate offthe Apprentice wecould have got a cent off .

You are right Sir Tigger to rejoin now the EU we never left would ensure The UK would be subservient forever. This is how it works. Once a naughty child aleays viewed as one. I havent found a sngle Spaniard who can understand why anyone voted to leave. Why would they when the EU has dragged them out of poverty and helped create enviable transport links. Theyconveniently
overlook the euro crisis which has hit hard for ten years


The folk calling for a referendum rerun havent thought it through either. For example what would they do if the result was the same i.e. a narrow leave.? If the t hreshold was set at a min of 65% to be meaningful ( a criticismlevelled After thevote) , what if thevote is 64%?

That's Ireland too.
They are a mile beyond ecstatic over here in that their pillow biting immigrant son PM fu**ed the Brits by all but threatening the bomb and bullet again if they even thought about drawing a line on a road.

I have watched and listened to this with horror over the last two years. It is nothing short of sick, and imo the UK should never forgive or forget this.  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 16:33:18
Anyway, Appeaser Mayhem has called a news conference for 5pm. Hopefuly she is finally going to throw in the towel, although Im not counting on it. She has poor political instinct but has a very strong survival instinct.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 17:02:45
We voted to leave. Very few people actually believe a no deal exit is viable. So we have to have an abortion of a compromise.

Surely that was blatantly obvious at the point we all voted for it.


Though maybe not, as the less informed trailer trash types believe what the BBC/Mail/Sky say, and thought they could have the world, and there would still be enough tax income to pay for what they hold dear...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 17:03:43
And that's probably why some, incorrectly IMHO, pushing for another vote.  Now the realisation is finally dawning.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 17:04:11
We voted to leave. Very few people actually believe a no deal exit is viable. So we have to have an abortion of a compromise.

Surely that was blatantly obvious at the point we all voted for it.


Though maybe not, as the less informed trailer trash types believe what the BBC/Mail/Sky say, and thought they could have the world, and there would still be enough tax income to pay for what they hold dear...
Macdonalds and sugary drinks?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 17:06:57
Anyway, Appeaser Mayhem has called a news conference for 5pm. Hopefuly she is finally going to throw in the towel, although Im not counting on it. She has poor political instinct but has a very strong survival instinct.
Matters not who is at the helm.  We can't stay (that's undemocratic), we cant no-deal leave (that's financial suicide), so we have to have something half-arsed.  Irrespective of who's in.

That's reality.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 November 2018, 17:09:25
And that's probably why some, incorrectly IMHO, pushing for another vote.  Now the realisation is finally dawning.

Yep.

The Utopian 'have our cake and eat it' ideal of what Brexit would be like is slowly slipping away.

It's a complete clusterf*uck. :-X

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 15 November 2018, 17:18:54
Though maybe not, as the less informed trailer trash types believe what the BBC/Mail/Sky say, and thought they could have the world, and there would still be enough tax income to pay for what they hold dear...

I fervently believe that this was the case. Based on some notion of empire, the greatness of the island, the "fact" that they need us more than we need them.

Genuinely a lot of people I spoke to believed that we'd "go over there, tell em how it is" and "they'll have to roll over because of the amount of trade we do with them" (actual quotes from people I know). Now, the fact we haven't shown Jerry what for and we aren't all back in time for tea and medals, realisation is dawning and we're looking round for someone to blame.

Hand on heart I don't think TM is much cop, but she also has a completely impossible task. Given that a lot of the Brexit talk was about things, or combinations of things that could never come to pass, she was only ever going to be on a hiding to nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 15 November 2018, 17:28:30
You've just got to admire Mays resilience. She's been batting at the crease for a good few hours now, and no one seems to have delivered a googlie.
She's deranged, of course, but determined.


Nor is anyone going to. Because then they will be stuck with having to create and carry out an effective plan. And there isn't one.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 November 2018, 17:33:15
Though maybe not, as the less informed trailer trash types believe what the BBC/Mail/Sky say, and thought they could have the world, and there would still be enough tax income to pay for what they hold dear...

I fervently believe that this was the case. Based on some notion of empire, the greatness of the island, the "fact" that they need us more than we need them.

Genuinely a lot of people I spoke to believed that we'd "go over there, tell em how it is" and "they'll have to roll over because of the amount of trade we do with them" (actual quotes from people I know). Now, the fact we haven't shown Jerry what for and we aren't all back in time for tea and medals, realisation is dawning and we're looking round for someone to blame.

Hand on heart I don't think TM is much cop, but she also has a completely impossible task. Given that a lot of the Brexit talk was about things, or combinations of things that could never come to pass, she was only ever going to be on a hiding to nothing.



Sadly.Yes. :-\

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 17:33:57
You've just got to admire Mays resilience. She's been batting at the crease for a good few hours now, and no one seems to have delivered a googlie.
She's deranged, of course, but determined.


Nor is anyone going to. Because then they will be stuck with having to create and carry out an effective plan. And there isn't one.
You can't possibly say that on here :o. Next you'll insist on Rover parts for the Metro.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 November 2018, 17:49:23
Anyway, Appeaser Mayhem has called a news conference for 5pm. Hopefuly she is finally going to throw in the towel, although Im not counting on it. She has poor political instinct but has a very strong survival instinct.
Matters not who is at the helm.  We can't stay (that's undemocratic), we cant no-deal leave (that's financial suicide), so we have to have something half-arsed.  Irrespective of who's in.

That's reality.


It would meaning dealing with the EU on WTO terms (for a while at least) which is exactly how we deal with much of the world and have done for a long time.
Please explain how that is financial suicide.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 18:29:11
If you have a puppy rolling on its back as a negotiator you are going to get a dogs dinner of an agreement.

It needed a hardball player to negotiate a deal. For one thing we shouldhavebottomed out trade not left that as a difficultthing for a couple of years down the line. We have oppsed up big time. Eu negotiators 1 uK 0 .

Anyone still sitting on the fence wondering should get off and get behind leaving.  Fannying about is just going toleave us all worse off. If that means gettingbehind Boris or the minister for 1780 then so be it. I just hope a better face turns up. Noel Edmunds Deal or no Deal.!?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 18:56:23
I don't believe that it was inevitable that we arrived at this point at all.

It's just the naivety and incompetence of those who were handling it, and who lets face it didn't believe in what they were doing that brought us here.

In June 2017 when the EU insisted on the absurd phased negotiations and HMG backed down to make the first concession, it should have been recognised at that point that a good deal was unlikely. 

They then could have spent the last 18 months or so devising a new regulatory and tax environment for UK business and industry that worked for all, not just the small percentage that actually trade with their continental counterparts, and that would have ensured that our economy thrived whatever the outcome of the talks.

So much wasted time and opportunity.  :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 18:59:24
Exactly.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 19:12:12
Anyway, Appeaser Mayhem has called a news conference for 5pm. Hopefuly she is finally going to throw in the towel, although Im not counting on it. She has poor political instinct but has a very strong survival instinct.
Matters not who is at the helm.  We can't stay (that's undemocratic), we cant no-deal leave (that's financial suicide), so we have to have something half-arsed.  Irrespective of who's in.

That's reality.


It would meaning dealing with the EU on WTO terms (for a while at least) which is exactly how we deal with much of the world and have done for a long time.
Please explain how that is financial suicide.
If you struggle to understand what WTO terms and costs (not just the 10%, but also the extra buearocracy) added to our biggest export market, take a peek at what the stock market and the banks have done at the mearest hint of losing free trade with out biggest partner....   ….and that's just the very unlikely case of no-deal (because that's never gonna happen - no Brexit is more likely, and that's pretty unlikely).

And global companies won't want to set up here, because of the extra costs in getting to major markets. They will set up in euro countries instead.  This is a car site, so lets consider that - BMW are already looking at options of moving BINI production outside the UK, so that's 5000 jobs directly lost, and the same again in the supply channel (who can't supply BMW in euroland, due to being uncompetitive due to the additional costs). Nissan have suggested that Sunderland won't get new models when under WTO conditions. So will get mothballed. That leaves Honda and the country's biggest car manufacturer, JLR.  JLR is headed, I believe, by a German, and have other manufacturing plants around the globe, so have no loyalties to the UK.  That could easily be 1-2m lost jobs. Which then hits the retail and entertainment sectors, who will lose staff...  ...it'll be another major, major UK recession, when we haven't recovered from the last one (which is currently estimated to burden use until around 2035, assuming we don't have another).

Even the most empassioned Brexiteer admits to a short and mid-term financial fallout, but prefer non scary terms like mid-term, rather than 2 or 3 generations, or 50yrs.


Simples really.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 19:15:50
It's just the naivety and incompetence of those who were handling it, and who lets face it didn't believe in what they were doing that brought us here.
I fail to see why anybody would think it would be any different?  As explained, a no-deal type exit would never fly with anyone (which is why no viable politician will back it). And the government were forced to come up with a compromise, as the people voted to stop non EU immigrants crossing the Med to come to our country.

And the EU were going to roll over for an insignificant island? Yeah, right.


So this is what "we" wanted.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 19:23:11
I fail to see why anybody would think
Though accept that some people do genuinely believe that we, as the weaker partner (esp currently), could make demands of the EU, and out of the goodness of their heart, they would roll over and let us tickle their tum.


If I was the EU, I'd be bending the UK negotiators over, and making them sweat. And still give nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 15 November 2018, 19:26:09
That said, I no longer get involved in the financial contract negotiations any more (only the technical), because if I think their proposal can be bettered, "opps off" is apparently an unprofessional, un-PC way of getting them to put in a better proposal...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 15 November 2018, 19:29:13
I fail to see why anybody would think
Though accept that some people do genuinely believe that we, as the weaker partner (esp currently), could make demands of the EU, and out of the goodness of their heart, they would roll over and let us tickle their tum.


If I was the EU, I'd be bending the UK negotiators over, and making them sweat. And still give nothing.
Any jobs going?  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 15 November 2018, 19:32:37
Game set and match.

EU have said there will be no renegotiation. Well done EU.

Makes you wonder how Italy will fare with their out of order budget proposals.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 November 2018, 19:39:10
That said, I no longer get involved in the financial contract negotiations any more (only the technical), because if I think their proposal can be bettered, "opps off" is apparently an unprofessional, un-PC way of getting them to put in a better proposal...
Bro's FIL, whom we sadly sent off on Tuesday :'(, is still (in spite of retiring from ABP 15 years ago) spoken of in awe as being the person who responded to a four page complaint and list of demands from a significant international logistics firm with a simple 'NO'. The reply back conceded every point as it was clear that there was no negotiating to be had... ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: redelitev6 on 15 November 2018, 20:40:00
Bet Corbyn can't believe his luck , he just has to wait until it all goes t**s up and a general election is called ,and then he and his cohorts sweep into power , all on the back of that idiot Cameron wanting his bit of history  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 15 November 2018, 21:21:00
I fail to see why anybody would think
Though accept that some people do genuinely believe that we, as the weaker partner (esp currently), could make demands of the EU, and out of the goodness of their heart, they would roll over and let us tickle their tum.


If I was the EU, I'd be bending the UK negotiators over, and making them sweat. And still give nothing.

This is basically what they have done, as our so called negotiators have given concession after concession in the naive belief that we'd get something in return and got a big fat nine, non, nada in return!  ::)

Prime example was when May said that the UK couldn't guarantee the UK's cooperation on military matters and security.  Howls of outrage and crying fowl from Brussels and she immediately backed down. In return they said we couldn't use Galileo!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 15 November 2018, 23:17:40
Bet Corbyn can't believe his luck , he just has to wait until it all goes t**s up and a general election is called ,and then he and his cohorts sweep into power , all on the back of that idiot Cameron wanting his bit of history  >:(


Yes, he's been thinking how lucky he was to lose the general election! That's why the Labour party has let the Conservatives lead on Brexit - it's a disaster of their own making, that nobody can do anything useful about. May isn't even close to drowning yet, she's still splashing about in the shallow end.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 09:16:32
Reuters are reporting that the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers has had the required 48 letters of no confidence in Theresa May to trigger a leadership challenge.

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 09:33:11
Reuters are reporting that the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers has had the required 48 letters of no confidence in Theresa May to trigger a leadership challenge.
Presumably the chairman has the power to not invoke a leadership challenge if it would be detrimental to stable government in light of current circumstances, ie times of constitutional significance (war, Brexit etc)  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: dave the builder on 16 November 2018, 09:34:22
Reuters are reporting that the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers has had the required 48 letters of no confidence in Theresa May to trigger a leadership challenge.
:(
only 48  ;D maybe some sent second class post
I'm gonna spend all me money before there's a run on the bank  :P
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 16 November 2018, 09:46:45
Cannot see an obvious candidate with the necessary skills that the country would buy into.

David Davies perhaps?


What would be the point? As far as the EU is concerned it is this deal or no deal .
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: dave the builder on 16 November 2018, 09:56:57
Agreed ,
it won't matter if it's May or someone else holding the Brexit stick
the UK will be getting the sh*tty end of it
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 16 November 2018, 10:05:17
(war, Brexit etc)  :-\

I know Brexit is going badly*, but I think war is a bit of a stretch.. ;D

*at least, according to all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on the Internet, here included. I mean, I even saw (elsewhere, not here) someone repeating that they "couldn't see how the ladybits who voted leave could sleep at night" ffs. We've gone right back to the vitriol and hatred of two years ago..


Actually, maybe a good war is what we need.. thin the herd a little.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 10:31:52
I think that she is so discredited that she has to go, if only to give the Tories a fighting chance at the next election which might be sooner than 2022.  ::)

They should have had the backbone to do it back in July when she unveiled her Chequers plan stitch up (after going to Berlin to run it by Merkel) that completely undermined David Davies.  :y

That's what would have happened in Maggies day!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 16 November 2018, 10:36:51
Reuters are reporting that the 1922 Committee of Tory backbenchers has had the required 48 letters of no confidence in Theresa May to trigger a leadership challenge.

I don't think finding the 48 has ever been the issue, its finding the one that's willing to hold the sticky end of the stick, its the only reason why May is still in No. 10 and it still stands today.

Its the reason that all the "hard brexit" BS from Rees-Mog, Johnson etc is just that, BS. If they genuinely believed what they were saying, they could have been behind the famous black door and giving it a go a long time ago. But they aren't, because they don't.  ::)

For me, unless one of them is willing to put up, they should stop sniping like petulent children and do something useful... exactly what use they should be put to, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Gaffers on 16 November 2018, 10:40:58
Thing is, if there had been as much public say and involvment of such an important decision back in '92,'99,'03 and especially '09 then we would have had a membership that the majority of the public could have gotten behind or at least shaped in some way through democratic means.  Instead we have had decades of conflating being elected a representative of the people with being given an agenda to do whatever someone likes vis-a-vis Europe.  All parties are guilty of this.

We finally had a vote for in or out at a point where the UK was increasingly frustrated with the EU and because Cameron had the guile to oppose Junker's election to high office he deliberately made it difficult for the then PM.  This was probably the nail in the coffin for the EU's relationship with the UK.  Until the EU makes itself a club that citizens wish to identify with rather than just be a member of because it is convenient/easy/good for the economy/etc then it will continuie to have a problem with the people it is supposed to represent.

Remember that they gave Ireland a referendum on closer integration about a decade ago and it failed.  So they had another until it finally passed.  The EU is not a democratic institution.  It is an institution masquerading as a democratic body.  To even consider a second vote on Brexit is absurdly unequal in the balance of public voice.  PM Brown signed us up to the current incarnation of the EU despite the fact that polls showed the majority of the public were against it.  Where were the cries for a public vote then?

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 10:47:22
(war, Brexit etc)  :-\

I know Brexit is going badly*, but I think war is a bit of a stretch.. ;D

*at least, according to all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on the Internet, here included. I mean, I even saw (elsewhere, not here) someone repeating that they "couldn't see how the ladybits who voted leave could sleep at night" ffs. We've gone right back to the vitriol and hatred of two years ago..


Actually, maybe a good war is what we need.. thin the herd a little.
All I meant was that the 1922 Committee could turn around and say that the no confidence motion is duly noted but not currently appropriate or in the country's best interest ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 16 November 2018, 11:10:31
Thing is, if there had been as much public say and involvment of such an important decision back in '92,'99,'03 and especially '09 then we would have had a membership that the majority of the public could have gotten behind or at least shaped in some way through democratic means.  Instead we have had decades of conflating being elected a representative of the people with being given an agenda to do whatever someone likes vis-a-vis Europe.  All parties are guilty of this.

We finally had a vote for in or out at a point where the UK was increasingly frustrated with the EU and because Cameron had the guile to oppose Junker's election to high office he deliberately made it difficult for the then PM.  This was probably the nail in the coffin for the EU's relationship with the UK.  Until the EU makes itself a club that citizens wish to identify with rather than just be a member of because it is convenient/easy/good for the economy/etc then it will continuie to have a problem with the people it is supposed to represent.

Remember that they gave Ireland a referendum on closer integration about a decade ago and it failed.  So they had another until it finally passed.  The EU is not a democratic institution.  It is an institution masquerading as a democratic body.  To even consider a second vote on Brexit is absurdly unequal in the balance of public voice.  PM Brown signed us up to the current incarnation of the EU despite the fact that polls showed the majority of the public were against it.  Where were the cries for a public vote then?

What you are saying is going some way to understanding the UK constitution, and what 'Parliament is Sovereign" actually means. In the UK, 'the people' aren't sovereign - they have no say in the day to day, week to week, month to month or year to year running of the country, or any agreements that the govt enters into.

Parliament took powers from the King back in the 1600's. It did not pass those powers to the people - it kept them for itself. In effect parliament replaced a single dictator (the King) by itself. The only powers the public have are those granted to the public by parliament, and those powers can be revoked. Women only got the vote in 1918/21 because parliament voted to give them that right. Parliament can revoke that right.

So as things stand, the treaties we entered into in '92,'99,'03 and '09 did not (and still would not) require public approval. Infact it can be argued that they don't even need parliamentary approval because international treaties are (arguably) govt to govt agreements under crown prerogative.

So the next time you see someone write something like "we had a referendum and the majority ordered the govt to..." you can safely assume the writer doesn't understand our parliamentary democracy. The public have no right to order the govt/parliament to do anything - they can only give an opinion. Because, ultimately Parliament is Sovereign.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 16 November 2018, 11:40:01
Thing is, if there had been as much public say and involvment of such an important decision back in '92,'99,'03 and especially '09 then we would have had a membership that the majority of the public could have gotten behind or at least shaped in some way through democratic means.  Instead we have had decades of conflating being elected a representative of the people with being given an agenda to do whatever someone likes vis-a-vis Europe.  All parties are guilty of this.

We finally had a vote for in or out at a point where the UK was increasingly frustrated with the EU and because Cameron had the guile to oppose Junker's election to high office he deliberately made it difficult for the then PM.  This was probably the nail in the coffin for the EU's relationship with the UK.  Until the EU makes itself a club that citizens wish to identify with rather than just be a member of because it is convenient/easy/good for the economy/etc then it will continuie to have a problem with the people it is supposed to represent.

Remember that they gave Ireland a referendum on closer integration about a decade ago and it failed.  So they had another until it finally passed.  The EU is not a democratic institution.  It is an institution masquerading as a democratic body.  To even consider a second vote on Brexit is absurdly unequal in the balance of public voice.  PM Brown signed us up to the current incarnation of the EU despite the fact that polls showed the majority of the public were against it.  Where were the cries for a public vote then?

What you are saying is going some way to understanding the UK constitution, and what 'Parliament is Sovereign" actually means. In the UK, 'the people' aren't sovereign - they have no say in the day to day, week to week, month to month or year to year running of the country, or any agreements that the govt enters into.

Parliament took powers from the King back in the 1600's. It did not pass those powers to the people - it kept them for itself. In effect parliament replaced a single dictator (the King) by itself. The only powers the public have are those granted to the public by parliament, and those powers can be revoked. Women only got the vote in 1918/21 because parliament voted to give them that right. Parliament can revoke that right.

So as things stand, the treaties we entered into in '92,'99,'03 and '09 did not (and still would not) require public approval. Infact it can be argued that they don't even need parliamentary approval because international treaties are (arguably) govt to govt agreements under crown prerogative.

So the next time you see someone write something like "we had a referendum and the majority ordered the govt to..." you can safely assume the writer doesn't understand our parliamentary democracy. The public have no right to order the govt/parliament to do anything - they can only give an opinion. Because, ultimately Parliament is Sovereign.

Quite but you missed out that the EU cleverly trumps all. For example Italy's parliament has set a budget but the EU doesn't like it so they have to set another or be fined.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 16 November 2018, 12:57:50
Thing is, if there had been as much public say and involvment of such an important decision back in '92,'99,'03 and especially '09 then we would have had a membership that the majority of the public could have gotten behind or at least shaped in some way through democratic means.  Instead we have had decades of conflating being elected a representative of the people with being given an agenda to do whatever someone likes vis-a-vis Europe.  All parties are guilty of this.

We finally had a vote for in or out at a point where the UK was increasingly frustrated with the EU and because Cameron had the guile to oppose Junker's election to high office he deliberately made it difficult for the then PM.  This was probably the nail in the coffin for the EU's relationship with the UK.  Until the EU makes itself a club that citizens wish to identify with rather than just be a member of because it is convenient/easy/good for the economy/etc then it will continuie to have a problem with the people it is supposed to represent.

Remember that they gave Ireland a referendum on closer integration about a decade ago and it failed.  So they had another until it finally passed.  The EU is not a democratic institution.  It is an institution masquerading as a democratic body.  To even consider a second vote on Brexit is absurdly unequal in the balance of public voice.  PM Brown signed us up to the current incarnation of the EU despite the fact that polls showed the majority of the public were against it.  Where were the cries for a public vote then?

What you are saying is going some way to understanding the UK constitution, and what 'Parliament is Sovereign" actually means. In the UK, 'the people' aren't sovereign - they have no say in the day to day, week to week, month to month or year to year running of the country, or any agreements that the govt enters into.

Parliament took powers from the King back in the 1600's. It did not pass those powers to the people - it kept them for itself. In effect parliament replaced a single dictator (the King) by itself. The only powers the public have are those granted to the public by parliament, and those powers can be revoked. Women only got the vote in 1918/21 because parliament voted to give them that right. Parliament can revoke that right.

So as things stand, the treaties we entered into in '92,'99,'03 and '09 did not (and still would not) require public approval. Infact it can be argued that they don't even need parliamentary approval because international treaties are (arguably) govt to govt agreements under crown prerogative.

So the next time you see someone write something like "we had a referendum and the majority ordered the govt to..." you can safely assume the writer doesn't understand our parliamentary democracy. The public have no right to order the govt/parliament to do anything - they can only give an opinion. Because, ultimately Parliament is Sovereign.

Indeed, but how long can a parliament persist with pushing through policies which do not have national support? Eventually the work of ministers starts getting hampered by the fact that they find themselves dangling from lamp posts.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 13:50:52
And here's the issue with May's 'deal'   ::)

If the ludicrous backstop is deployed, we cannot withdraw unilaterally as they have agreed that it can only end by mutual consent.

In my opinion, the ONLY way that the Irish border issue can be solved is through the future trading relationship, but the EU have refused to talk about the future, insisting on the backstop.  Incidentally, this probably contravenes A50, as A50 says that the withdrawal agreement takes account of the future relationship, but there is nothing beyond a bland non binding political statement of good faith.  ::)

There is now no incentive for the EU to engage in any meaningful way on any innovative border solutions, as all they have to do is insist it is impossible and the only way is the customs union...permanently.  Sabine Weyland (Barnier's deputy) has publicly said that the customs union will form the basis of the future trade agreement.

If there is no agreement that sorts the border issue by the end of the transition, then the backstop comes into force and we are trapped.  The UK won't have the ability to pursue an independent trade policy, we will have no say in the EU's trade policies, yet they will have the ability to grant access to UK markets to any old Tom, Dick or Harry.  And there isn't a damn thing we can do!

Some sovereignty....  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 16 November 2018, 13:58:08
Quite but you missed out that the EU cleverly trumps all. For example Italy's parliament has set a budget but the EU doesn't like it so they have to set another or be fined.

No. The UK Parliament can decide to ignore the EU, or anyone else for that matter. However, doing so would undoubtedly result in a reaction from the other 27 EU members since we would be breaking treaty obligations that previous parliaments had agreed to follow. So the UK's choice then becomes do we want to stay in the club and follow all the rules we have previously helped draft and agreed to, or do we want to leave the club and do our own thing. There can be no cherry picking of which rules we want to follow and which we don't if we want to stay in the club.

I have no knowledge of Italy's constitutional situation. Joining the Euro undoubtedly means they have treaty obligations to other Euro nations. If those treaties involve budgetary conditions then they should either follow them, or leave the Euro. I would expect that as a sovereign nation they have the choice, so it's which they want the most.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 16 November 2018, 14:01:13
Indeed, but how long can a parliament persist with pushing through policies which do not have national support? Eventually the work of ministers starts getting hampered by the fact that they find themselves dangling from lamp posts.

The answer to that is for however long the Police/Army decide to uphold/enforce the laws that parliament subjects it's people to. 
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 16 November 2018, 14:15:28
And here's the issue with May's 'deal'   ::)

If the ludicrous backstop is deployed, we cannot withdraw unilaterally as they have agreed that it can only end by mutual consent.

In my opinion, the ONLY way that the Irish border issue can be solved is through the future trading relationship, but the EU have refused to talk about the future, insisting on the backstop.  Incidentally, this probably contravenes A50, as A50 says that the withdrawal agreement takes account of the future relationship, but there is nothing beyond a bland non binding political statement of good faith.  ::)

There is now no incentive for the EU to engage in any meaningful way on any innovative border solutions, as all they have to do is insist it is impossible and the only way is the customs union...permanently.  Sabine Weyland (Barnier's deputy) has publicly said that the customs union will form the basis of the future trade agreement.

If there is no agreement that sorts the border issue by the end of the transition, then the backstop comes into force and we are trapped.  The UK won't have the ability to pursue an independent trade policy, we will have no say in the EU's trade policies, yet they will have the ability to grant access to UK markets to any old Tom, Dick or Harry.  And there isn't a damn thing we can do!

Some sovereignty....  ::)

Wrong, again. What part of Parliament is sovereign is difficult to understand?

This or any future parliament can decide to unilaterally revoke any agreement/treaty. One parliament cannot bind the actions of a future parliament. It's true that any other deals that rely on the Withdrawl Agreement would come crashing down too, but if parliament want's to tear everything up and start again from scratch it can. Trouble is, that risks landing us in a situation like North Korea which has no international trade to speak of.

What we can't do is tear up the Withdrawl agreement and continue trading with the EU in the same way we currently do (during the transition period), or in whatever way is agreed during negotiations.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 15:15:59
Parliamentary sovereignty is not difficult to understand.

In fact  along with 17400000 people I voted to restore the sovereignty that Parliament has slowly but surely given away to Brussels over the last 45 years or so, but it seems that the government and parliament dosn't want it.

It remains to be seen whether Parliament asserts that sovereignty that you keep banging on about and rejects this agreement, but in my opinion at least, if they do, they will be doing so for all the wrong reasons. IE to force a GE for narrow party political reasons, or to reverse the result of the referendum.  ::)

Anyway I think it was clear from my post that I meant that there would be little we can do under the terms of this agreement, so I don't know why you keep bringing up Parliamentary sovereignty?  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 16 November 2018, 15:42:28
And here's the issue with May's 'deal'   ::)

If the ludicrous backstop is deployed, we cannot withdraw unilaterally as they have agreed that it can only end by mutual consent.

In my opinion, the ONLY way that the Irish border issue can be solved is through the future trading relationship, but the EU have refused to talk about the future, insisting on the backstop.  Incidentally, this probably contravenes A50, as A50 says that the withdrawal agreement takes account of the future relationship, but there is nothing beyond a bland non binding political statement of good faith.  ::)

There is now no incentive for the EU to engage in any meaningful way on any innovative border solutions, as all they have to do is insist it is impossible and the only way is the customs union...permanently.  Sabine Weyland (Barnier's deputy) has publicly said that the customs union will form the basis of the future trade agreement.

If there is no agreement that sorts the border issue by the end of the transition, then the backstop comes into force and we are trapped.  The UK won't have the ability to pursue an independent trade policy, we will have no say in the EU's trade policies, yet they will have the ability to grant access to UK markets to any old Tom, Dick or Harry.  And there isn't a damn thing we can do!

Some sovereignty....  ::)

Wrong, again. What part of Parliament is sovereign is difficult to understand?

This or any future parliament can decide to unilaterally revoke any agreement/treaty. One parliament cannot bind the actions of a future parliament. It's true that any other deals that rely on the Withdrawl Agreement would come crashing down too, but if parliament want's to tear everything up and start again from scratch it can. Trouble is, that risks landing us in a situation like North Korea which has no international trade to speak of.

What we can't do is tear up the Withdrawl agreement and continue trading with the EU in the same way we currently do (during the transition period), or in whatever way is agreed during negotiations.

I cannot see that. it is like comparing lemons to beach rocks. North Korea has very little International trade because of sanctions due to its nuclear ambitions . The UK would still have a massive amount of trade on WTO or better terms.

What is totally unacceptable about this agreement is the knock on effect that the outcome will have on us all regardless of where we live or nationality. Trade should have been a condition of the agreement on the table today. Well done Barnier and May. I expected common sense to apply but instead spite reigns supreme. They did tell us this the day after the vote in fairness.


Aaron. "couldn't see how the ladybits who voted leave could sleep at night" ffs. We've gone right back to the vitriol and hatred of two years ago..  Spot on. I, understandably, am on some expat forums. Plenty of that vitriol on there despite it being a remain like agreement and it is from remainers against those "thickos" that voted leave!  It is going to take a special leader to meld the Uk back into shape next year. Someone earlier likened it to war. I think that is a fair analogy apart from hopefully there won't be any killing. The government is going to have to be able to react very quickly to sort out issues post 29th March especially if we crash out.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 16:06:03
But this how a democracy works. If you have a nation where 52% of the population are 'thickos' and 48% are 'not thickos', then the thickos will always win a vote that has only two options. If there was only two political parties, the thickos would permanently govern.
Whining cannot change this, discussion and persuasion possibly could. Not thickos could say that the thickos only voted this way because they were fed a crock of shite before the referendum. Promises that not thickos could see would be impossible to deliver. But it's all moot, we are where we are, live with it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 16 November 2018, 16:21:22
What is totally unacceptable about this agreement is the knock on effect that the outcome will have on us all regardless of where we live or nationality. Trade should have been a condition of the agreement on the table today. Well done Barnier and May. I expected common sense to apply but instead spite reigns supreme. They did tell us this the day after the vote in fairness.

Yes, it's not as if we didn't have agreements about such things with our European allies before the EU. It's just that Brussels have cynically bundled in all the common sense policies of neighbouring countries with similar aims along with their personal political ambitions which the UK electorate have found to be wanting. Now, we can't have the common sense without signing up to the batshit stuff. ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 16:41:22
Here's the thing though...

Article 50 only sets out the leaving process. What happens afterwards and any terms etc cannot be begun until the A50 bit is done. This is why there has to be the transition phase to thrash out any long term items such as trade/customs etc deals/details.

The backstop is what will happen if the transition period fails to reach agreement to all the details. This is why it is so vague. Until March 29th and the end of A50, none of these details can be formally addressed.

The second, smaller document submitted yesterday is a prelude to the final arrangements which will form the basis of post transition... ie our ultimate place as a separate entity to the EU.

A hard/no deal Brexit is the most simplistic of alternatives with everything set by WTO rules and hard borders. This could yet happen at one of two points...

1. On March 29th if the EU fails to unanimously sign off on yesterday's submission; or...

2. At the end of the transition period if there's no progress with the details outlined within yesterday's submission and, significantly, both UK and EU agree that it would be better than invoking the Backstop.

Brexit could never realistically be a simple line in the sand. It is, in fact, a long drawn out process that we are about a third of the way through...

Whilst it's not a great foundation for a long-term deal, yesterday's submission is about as good as it gets as far as getting the A50 process signed off :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 16 November 2018, 17:18:21
Surprised that Rods2 has been quiet on this, or, have i missed something?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 16 November 2018, 17:28:33
But this how a democracy works. If you have a nation where 52% of the population are 'thickos' and 48% are 'not thickos', then the thickos will always win a vote that has only two options. If there was only two political parties, the thickos would permanently govern.
Whining cannot change this, discussion and persuasion possibly could. Not thickos could say that the thickos only voted this way because they were fed a crock of shite before the referendum. Promises that not thickos could see would be impossible to deliver. But it's all moot, we are where we are, live with it.

Are 'thickos' thicker than 'thickies'?

If thickos and thickies work as a team they could produce millions of 'double thick' offspring.

.......oh, hang on. It's too late. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 16 November 2018, 17:34:16
If thickos and thickies work as a team they could produce millions of 'double thick' offspring.

Are we talking about cream, now? Because I prefer clotted, myself. I hope Brexit won't ruin trade relations with Cornwall...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 17:35:43
If thickos and thickies work as a team they could produce millions of 'double thick' offspring.

Are we talking about cream, now? Because I prefer clotted, myself. I hope Brexit won't ruin trade relations with Cornwall...
All the talk of independence has gone quiet recently...  :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 16 November 2018, 17:37:58
I don't believe there will be or should be a second referendum.

But if there were, my guess is 'remain' would win it.

If there is a second referendum I don't believe there should be a 'remain option'. I think the choice should be between TM's deal ( piss poor though it is) or no deal. We (not me) have already voted to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 16 November 2018, 17:49:28
I don't believe there will be or should be a second referendum.

But if there were, my guess is 'remain' would win it.

If there is a second referendum I don't believe there should be a 'remain option'. I think the choice should be between TM's deal ( piss poor though it is) or no deal. We (not me) have already voted to leave.

I'm inclined to agree. Forgetting we ever thought about leaving seems a sensible way out of this fustercluck, but the EU is now a toxic "brand" in the UK and to not leave will unleash a wave of nationalism and unpleasantness that will make UKIP and the EDL look like a knitting circle IMHO.

I just hope all the pledges to vote down the deal are because it genuinely is a trap that we can't extricate ourselves from rather than an opportunity to further a few political ambitions. ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 18:11:05
All the sycophantic little toadies are coming out now. Michael Gove......doesn't TM know how easily he turns his treacherous coat? It doesn't matter which side of the argument you sit, this unsightly game of musical chairs is sick making. Anyone can be a cabinet minister (have you even heard of the new brexit secretary?) because they can't have any say on the outcome. Just a nice few bob extra pay until it all blows up.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 16 November 2018, 18:39:59
All the sycophantic little toadies are coming out now. Michael Gove......doesn't TM know how easily he turns his treacherous coat? It doesn't matter which side of the argument you sit, this unsightly game of musical chairs is sick making. Anyone can be a cabinet minister (have you even heard of the new brexit secretary?) because they can't have any say on the outcome. Just a nice few bob extra pay until it all blows up.
His constituency includes Wisbech , which  voted quite heavily to leave. Wonder where he sits with that?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 16 November 2018, 19:13:32
All the sycophantic little toadies are coming out now. Michael Gove......doesn't TM know how easily he turns his treacherous coat? It doesn't matter which side of the argument you sit, this unsightly game of musical chairs is sick making. Anyone can be a cabinet minister (have you even heard of the new brexit secretary?) because they can't have any say on the outcome. Just a nice few bob extra pay until it all blows up.
His constituency includes Wisbech , which  voted quite heavily to leave. Wonder where he sits with that?

Probably nowhere. Have you noticed that a lot of MPs dont take a blind bit of notice about how their constituents voted. Probably democratic parliament sovereignty or such like. STEMO you are right again. At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.

An interesting snippet of Mays appearance this am on lbc radio. The nhs will be getting 394 million a week. Bit more than the 350 on the bus. I dare say it is just back “pay” from years of tory under funding.......
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 19:28:01
Your last observation really grips my shit...

If Liebour hadn't spent all the money and then borrowed against the future and spent all that as well, the Tories might actually have had a budget to work with >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 19:30:20

At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.


I'd quite like that job!  :y

I'd tell the arrogant Barnier to stick his stupid backstop up his jacksie, and that the only alternative to organising a proper solution to the border in the first place would be getting Trump over to build a wall!  :-X  ;D

Bit late now though.....  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 19:34:46

At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.


I'd quite like that job!  :y

I'd tell the arrogant Barnier to stick his stupid backstop up his jacksie, and that the only alternative to organising a proper solution to the border in the first place would be getting Trump over to build a wall!  :-X  ;D

Bit late now though.....  :-\
Ermmm......no you wouldn't, because you wouldn't actually get to meet him.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 19:38:12

At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.


I'd quite like that job!  :y

I'd tell the arrogant Barnier to stick his stupid backstop up his jacksie, and that the only alternative to organising a proper solution to the border in the first place would be getting Trump over to build a wall!  :-X  ;D

Bit late now though.....  :-\
Ermmm......no you wouldn't, because you wouldn't actually get to meet him.  ;D

Why not?  Davies and Raab did.  :-\

Ah yes, an ex lorryist called Tigger is wheeeeeay below his pay grade!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 19:39:03

At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.


I'd quite like that job!  :y

I'd tell the arrogant Barnier to stick his stupid backstop up his jacksie, and that the only alternative to organising a proper solution to the border in the first place would be getting Trump over to build a wall!  :-X  ;D

Bit late now though.....  :-\
Ermmm......no you wouldn't, because you wouldn't actually get to meet him.  ;D

Why not Davies an Raab did.  :-\

Ah yes, an ex lorryist called Tigger is wheeeeeay below his pay grade!  ;D
Ok....you can meet him. But you'd better not talk to him.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 19:46:39

At the rate it is going it is quite possible a forum member might get a job like Brexit secretary despite not currently being an mp.


I'd quite like that job!  :y

I'd tell the arrogant Barnier to stick his stupid backstop up his jacksie, and that the only alternative to organising a proper solution to the border in the first place would be getting Trump over to build a wall!  :-X  ;D

Bit late now though.....  :-\
Ermmm......no you wouldn't, because you wouldn't actually get to meet him.  ;D

Why not Davies an Raab did.  :-\

Ah yes, an ex lorryist called Tigger is wheeeeeay below his pay grade!  ;D
Ok....you can meet him. But you'd better not talk to him.  ;D

Hmmm I can't speak French beyond badly accented schoolboy stuff that will just piss him off.   ::)

Bonjooor Monsewer Barniyuur!  Coomment tally vooos?  :)

And there's no way am I having the arrogant likes of him trying to talk Darzet to me!  >:(     

So we'd get on like a house on fire! ;D 

In fact he'd get so sick of me that in short order he tell me to keep my oppsing £39 billion!  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 16 November 2018, 19:47:33
Double it more like ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 19:50:26
The fact is: We have a brexit secretary who knows eff all about brexit, and it's a bit late to be reading up on it now. So he'll run back and forth delivering messages, before the poor sap is put on the tellybox to tell us all we're f*ucked.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 19:51:49
Double it more like ::)

Well that has been one good thing that has come out of these so called negotiations, the £39 billion was originally £100 billion.  ::)

Although I read elsewhere that the UK 'negotiators' agreed to write off the UK's share of EU assets.....  Yay!  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 19:53:03
Does that include Tiggers place in St Tropez?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 19:55:23
The fact is: We have a brexit secretary who knows eff all about brexit, and it's a bit late to be reading up on it now. So he'll run back and forth delivering messages, before the poor sap is put on the tellybox to tell us all we're f*ucked.

Yes I think that David Davies had good intentions and had a plan, but was right royally shafted by May and Oily Robbins.  >:(

Raab was just May's bag carrier and had his bottom spanked when he let his mouth run away....  ::)

I doubt the new boy will even be allowed on the EuroStar on his own.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 20:00:32
Does that include Tiggers place in St Tropez?

No I sold that, after Macron threatened to kick the Brits out of France, in response to May's unconditional guarantee to all EU citizens living here.  >:(  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 16 November 2018, 20:11:40

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 16 November 2018, 20:38:31

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D

Whoa! I got a big red security warning for that site Jimmy, so I hit the 'Back To Safety' button!  :o  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 20:45:50

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 20:48:17

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D

Whoa! I got a big red security warning for that site Jimmy, so I hit the 'Back To Safety' button!  :o  :-\
I tried to send the link and google blocked it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 16 November 2018, 20:49:20
There you go, Tigger:

Green activists have criticised Theresa May’s government for using disposable Brexit Secretaries which end up polluting the oceans.

In light of the resignation of Brexit Secretary Dominic Raab, environmental campaigners have been vocal about the government’s deployment of non-renewable ministers.

“There’s no need for it in this day and age,” said campaigner Simon Williams. “Discarded Brexit Secretaries are one of the biggest threats to marine life.

“Thousands of animals have choked to death on the empty rhetoric of David Davis alone.

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––



“Think of all the energy that’s wasted when a new Brexit Secretary comes along, talks 'dangle berries' for a bit, demonstrates worrying levels of ignorance and then resigns. Where do you think all that hot air is going?

“No-one thinks of the emissions generating by single-use Brexit ministers.”

There have been suggestions that at the very least the Prime Minister should have to pay five pence each time she appoints a new Brexit Secretary.

“It’s a nice idea in principle, but completely unworkable in practice,” said Theresa May.

“I just know that I’ll turn up at a cabinet meeting or an EU summit and I’ll have forgotten my Brexit Secretary. The British economy’s in enough trouble without me wasting all those 5ps.”

A ‘Brexit-Secretary for life’ scheme has also been suggested. However, most political analysts agree that this wouldn’t be a shrewd long-term investment given the fact that they’d probably fall apart when given the slightest tricky agenda item.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 16 November 2018, 21:07:29

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 16 November 2018, 21:28:06

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/
 (http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/environmentalists-criticise-government-for-employing-single-use-brexit-secretaries/)
 ;D
And? :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 17 November 2018, 00:01:59
I cannot see that. it is like comparing lemons to beach rocks. North Korea has very little International trade because of sanctions due to its nuclear ambitions . The UK would still have a massive amount of trade on WTO or better terms.

WTO is also an international treaty. We can only trade under WTO if we abide by ALL the rules of WTO. Given that Parliament is sovereign it can chose to ignore EU/WTO/whatever rules, and in doing so we would end up in a situation similar to North Korea.

Not saying that's in anyway likely, but constitutionally it is possible. That was my point.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 17 November 2018, 03:13:04
The fact is: We have a brexit secretary who knows eff all about brexit, and it's a bit late to be reading up on it now. So he'll run back and forth delivering messages, before the poor sap is put on the tellybox to tell us all we're f*ucked.

Yes I think that David Davies had good intentions and had a plan, but was right royally shafted by May and Oily Robbins.  >:(

Raab was just May's bag carrier and had his bottom spanked when he let his mouth run away....  ::)

I doubt the new boy will even be allowed on the EuroStar on his own.  ;D

Absolutely, as that was our real Canada+++ Brexit that David Davis was negotiating which would have mean't that the UK and EU would have kept their tariff free trade and we could have negotiated FTAs with the rest of the world, considerably boosting UK economic growth & our wealth. Remainer Tsar May her Brexit spiritual advisor Rasputin Robbins along with the establishment are determined to make sure we don't get that. If Theresa May is not deposed next week she will kill the Conservative party, which maybe Theresa 'Nasty Party' May's aim anyway. If May is not stopped by being deposed, this will be a much bigger capitulation than Chamberlain's in 1938, Suez in 1953 and only falling short of the French invasion and occupation in 1066. We will be a vassal state owned by the EU with no say on how they treat us. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

I thought Heath & Major were useless PMs but Appeaser May has taken incompetitance, duplicity and continuous serial lying to a whole new level that would even make BLiar, Campbell and Mandlescum blush. Every time she opens he mouth we get a cacophony of deceit and lies.  :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 10:10:39
As time goes by I have  the sneaking suspicion TM will get this watery BRINO through parliament.

.......even Gove  is saying he is right behind the PM( presumably holding the same same dagger he used on Boris)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 10:13:18
The fact is: We have a brexit secretary who knows eff all about brexit, and it's a bit late to be reading up on it now. So he'll run back and forth delivering messages, before the poor sap is put on the tellybox to tell us all we're f*ucked.

Yes I think that David Davies had good intentions and had a plan, but was right royally shafted by May and Oily Robbins.  >:(

Raab was just May's bag carrier and had his bottom spanked when he let his mouth run away....  ::)

I doubt the new boy will even be allowed on the EuroStar on his own.  ;D

Absolutely, as that was our real Canada+++ Brexit that David Davis was negotiating which would have mean't that the UK and EU would have kept their tariff free trade and we could have negotiated FTAs with the rest of the world, considerably boosting UK economic growth & our wealth. Remainer Tsar May her Brexit spiritual advisor Rasputin Robbins along with the establishment are determined to make sure we don't get that. If Theresa May is not deposed next week she will kill the Conservative party, which maybe Theresa 'Nasty Party' May's aim anyway. If May is not stopped by being deposed, this will be a much bigger capitulation than Chamberlain's in 1938, Suez in 1953 and only falling short of the French invasion and occupation in 1066. We will be a vassal state owned by the EU with no say on how they treat us. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

I thought Heath & Major were useless PMs but Appeaser May has taken incompetitance, duplicity and continuous serial lying to a whole new level that would even make BLiar, Campbell and Mandlescum blush. Every time she opens he mouth we get a cacophony of deceit and lies.  :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


Hey......come on Mr Rods. It should be all smiles from you. We are leaving the EU. :) ;) :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 17 November 2018, 10:17:43
Now I don't particularly rate Ms May's abilities as PM, but I think joining the media (who are just looking for the next sensation) and calling her any name under the sun, and trying to get her to step down just because the vocal ones didn't get what they want, is in any way helpful.

A hard, no deal, exit was NEVER going to happen.  If you thought otherwise, you were suckered in. No serving parliament was ever going to let that happen, because it would leave the country in a monumental mess for generations, as agreed by virtually all credible economists, including those that political parties go to for advice.

So Ms May's government has done what any other leader or party could do, negotiate a deal where the other side holds all the aces.  Which was the will of the people. Nobody else could have achieved significantly better, as we were dealt a crap hand. Negotiations are concluded, bar minor tweaks.

So there are 3 choices on the table, non are palatable by the majority:

1) No Deal exit - not going to fly now everyone and his dog realises that "Project Fear" is the reality of this outcome.
2) The current Chequers-esque abortion deal - nobody voted for it, but now only viable option.
3) No exit - although now a real possibility, and likely the only one Parliament will let through, this sits desperately uneasy for me as it makes a mockery of democracy.


The biggest error in negotiation was the (cross party) agreement of no hard border between NI and Ireland.  There was no way, as long as you have a hole up your arse, that could ever happen, unless we remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 17 November 2018, 11:09:19
Absolutely right TB!! :y :y

I was/am a remainer and as you say, if anyone believed an exit was going to be easy and make this country great again they were very much mistaken.  The infamous £350 million per week on the Leave bus no doubt persuaded a lot to vote "leave".  The reality of the simplistic, naive thought we could leave unscathed is now being completely revealed.

As for the Referendum,  yes the result must be honoured up to a point, but when the progress of leaving is so bogged down and, so far, will give everyone grief, there must be another vote somewhere, somehow.  The young heavily supporting staying in; it is their future that could be irreversibly wrecked by what is going on now.  Honouring the vote is one thing, but wrecking the country on a principle that will greatly affect our young, is not on.

I have kept quiet on this, and other political subjects, but I think it is about time people in our Remain group (48% at the Referendum, but what would it be now??) stepped up and said enough is enough.  The PM has done the best she can in the circumstances, but now it is time for a very big re-think / vote.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 17 November 2018, 11:20:16
You only want a re vote because you didn't get the result you wanted :-X I didn't vote for this version of events either, but if asked again, would still vote Leave, for all the same reasons.

We are leaving the EU next March and that's that. I suspect that the EU Council will ratify the submission, probably as is, and Parliament will have no choice but to agree to it.

Let's not forget that the submission is a founding outline for the transition period and not the final view of life after EU.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 11:24:12
Absolutely right TB!! :y :y

I was/am a remainer and as you say, if anyone believed an exit was going to be easy and make this country great again they were very much mistaken.  The infamous £350 million per week on the Leave bus no doubt persuaded a lot to vote "leave".  The reality of the simplistic, naive thought we could leave unscathed is now being completely revealed.

As for the Referendum,  yes the result must be honoured up to a point, but when the progress of leaving is so bogged down and, so far, will give everyone grief, there must be another vote somewhere, somehow.  The young heavily supporting staying in; it is their future that could be irreversibly wrecked by what is going on now.  Honouring the vote is one thing, but wrecking the country on a principle that will greatly affect our young, is not on.

I have kept quiet on this, and other political subjects, but I think it is about time people in our Remain group (48% at the Referendum, but what would it be now??) stepped up and said enough is enough.  The PM has done the best she can in the circumstances, but now it is time for a very big re-think / vote.

Like you Lizzie I voted to remain. Not because I'm a fan of the EU (it is far too flawed for that) but because it seemed 'the least worst option'

Boris and his bus suggested we could have it all and there would be no negative consequences. Have our cake and eat it ....so to speak. In reality this was never going to fly.

You mention the younger generation. Most are natural Europeans and therefore remainers. The problem being that most are also bone idle and couldn't be arsed to vote. If they had voted in significant numbers the result could have gone the other way. General apathy I would say. :y :-* :-* :-* :-*



Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Andy B on 17 November 2018, 11:29:43
....
 The problem being that most are also bone idle and couldn't be arsed to vote. If they had voted in significant numbers the result could have gone the other way. General apathy I would say. :y :-* :-* :-* :-*

The turn out was one the biggest ever  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 17 November 2018, 11:32:04
50% more than the previous GE is hardly overwhelming... Still far below 100% ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 11:33:22
....
 The problem being that most are also bone idle and couldn't be arsed to vote. If they had voted in significant numbers the result could have gone the other way. General apathy I would say. :y :-* :-* :-* :-*

The turn out was one the biggest ever ???

I specifically refer to the turnout of 18-24 year old voters which was low. :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Andy B on 17 November 2018, 11:38:47
50% more than the previous GE is hardly overwhelming... Still far below 100% ::)

A quick Google suggested it was 70% odd ....  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Andy B on 17 November 2018, 11:39:12
....
 The problem being that most are also bone idle and couldn't be arsed to vote. If they had voted in significant numbers the result could have gone the other way. General apathy I would say. :y :-* :-* :-* :-*

The turn out was one the biggest ever ???

I specifically refer to the turnout of 18-24 year old voters which was low. :y

 :y OK
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 11:39:53
I mean, if decrepit old farts  like STMO, Albs and Rods can drag their worn out corpse of a body to the polling station what is the excuse for younger people. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 17 November 2018, 11:49:26
I mean, if decrepit old farts  like STMO, Albs and Rods can drag their worn out corpse of a body to the polling station what is the excuse for younger people. :)

I'm young and I managed to drag my sorry arse out of my stinking pit to go and vote!  :y

So I have no truck with these young snowflakes that accuse the older generation of stealing their future.  In fact in most cultures around the world the older generation are generally respected for their life experience and wisdom.  :y  Not here it seems.  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 12:04:23
I mean, if decrepit old farts  like STMO, Albs and Rods can drag their worn out corpse of a body to the polling station what is the excuse for younger people. :)

I'm young and I managed to drag my sorry arse out of my stinking pit to go and vote!  :y

So I have no truck with these young snowflakes that accuse the older generation of stealing their future.  In fact in most cultures around the world the older generation are generally respected for their life experience and wisdom.  :y  Not here it seems.  :-\

You can't be that young.

Nobody young and hip would be seen dead in a Marina.......or even know what a Morris Marina is. ;) :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 17 November 2018, 12:11:27
....
 The problem being that most are also bone idle and couldn't be arsed to vote. If they had voted in significant numbers the result could have gone the other way. General apathy I would say. :y :-* :-* :-* :-*

The turn out was one the biggest ever ???

I specifically refer to the turnout of 18-24 year old voters which was low. :y


and is why the Labour party put a lot more targeted effort into their general election campaigning.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 17 November 2018, 12:13:20
A question for anyone who wont accept that we are leaving the EU, due to the result of the biggest vote in our history.

If we were to have another referendum, and the result was still that we should leave the EU. What exactly do you think should / will happen then ?


 On a slightly different note - Mayhems agreement isn't going to happen. She caved in a long time ago and agreed to give the commons a vote on what she came back with.  The commons is not going to vote this through.
Her only hope is that she can somehow persuade Labour to abstain. If they do this, it proves they don't actually want to be in Government at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 12:19:25
A question for anyone who wont accept that we are leaving the EU, due to the result of the biggest vote in our history.

If we were to have another referendum, and the result was still that we should leave the EU. What exactly do you think should / will happen then ?


 On a slightly different note - Mayhems agreement isn't going to happen. She caved in a long time ago and agreed to give the commons a vote on what she came back with.  The commons is not going to vote this through.
Her only hope is that she can somehow persuade Labour to abstain. If they do this, it proves they don't actually want to be in Government at the moment.


I agree.......but I have this nagging doubt that as time goes by, and she keeps on saying it's this or no deal.....that people will just be resigned to their fate of a watery BRINO.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 17 November 2018, 13:14:47
Lizzie and others still mentioning the 350 million a week for the nhs, did you see my earlier post where May said the nhs will be getting 394 million.?


Cynically I could say that she should have stuck at 350 and used the balance to bung the EU 59 billion instead of 39 billion dowry or whatever it is. ;D ;D

The whole affair following the vote has been monumentally badly handled. We should have accepted the result and got a cross party agreed way forward and then gone in hard on negotiation with some innovation.  As a country we have become a snowflake.

All those talking about having another referendum havent an answer for what happens if it is 52 :48 again.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 17 November 2018, 13:38:07
Lizzie and others still mentioning the 350 million a week for the nhs, did you see my earlier post where May said the nhs will be getting 394 million.?


Cynically I could say that she should have stuck at 350 and used the balance to bung the EU 59 billion instead of 39 billion dowry or whatever it is. ;D ;D

The whole affair following the vote has been monumentally badly handled. We should have accepted the result and got a cross party agreed way forward and then gone in hard on negotiation with some innovation.  As a country we have become a snowflake.

All those talking about having another referendum havent an answer for what happens if it is 52 :48 again.
Best of five.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 17 November 2018, 14:50:34
Lizzie and others still mentioning the 350 million a week for the nhs, did you see my earlier post where May said the nhs will be getting 394 million.?


Cynically I could say that she should have stuck at 350 and used the balance to bung the EU 59 billion instead of 39 billion dowry or whatever it is. ;D ;D

The whole affair following the vote has been monumentally badly handled. We should have accepted the result and got a cross party agreed way forward and then gone in hard on negotiation with some innovation.  As a country we have become a snowflake.

All those talking about having another referendum havent an answer for what happens if it is 52 :48 again.
Best of five.

Followed by best of seven.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: btc on 17 November 2018, 15:19:08
keep going until they get the result they want
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 17 November 2018, 15:39:18
That's exactly what they have done in any other member state which gave the wrong answer in a referendum, and what they are determined to try and do in the UK.
They wouldn't recognise Democracy if they tripped over it.
Its pathetic to se how that some British people are actually falling for the trick, despite the history of happening within the last decade or two.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 November 2018, 10:44:58
There are reports out today that Brussels have indicated that they would be willing to extend the transition period, but it must be for at least 12 months and will cost an extra £10 billion.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 18 November 2018, 11:47:09
Matters not. We either get rid of Mayhem or we are stuck with a Hotel California Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 18 November 2018, 11:54:50
There are reports out today that Brussels have indicated that they would be willing to extend the transition period, but it must be for at least 12 months and will cost an extra £10 billion.  :)

That is not how Brexit works...... :)

Brexit means we make no contributions to the EU........trade exactly as before, but don't follow their rules or allow people in from the EU.

That is why we are leaving. We can have everything.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Andy B on 18 November 2018, 12:53:34
.....
All those talking about having another referendum havent an answer for what happens if it is 52 :48 again.

Have another & another till they get 48:52  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 18 November 2018, 20:29:23
.....
All those talking about having another referendum havent an answer for what happens if it is 52 :48 again.

Have another & another till they get 48:52  ::) ::)

No need as Parliament is going to vote on what is accepted or not.  I did say another vote, not referendum, "somehow, somewhere". That is what is crucial now for this country, but heaven help us judging by the very mixed views of our politicians!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 18 November 2018, 21:05:42
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 18 November 2018, 21:26:20
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 18 November 2018, 23:53:32
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 19 November 2018, 01:00:11
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...

Yes apparently if there is no deal, we'll run out of Mars bars in 2 weeks!  :o
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 November 2018, 03:44:00
Well that's that then :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 20 November 2018, 12:56:23
I wondered when Spain would raise Gibraltar. Typical of Spain to do so at the eleventh hour. Elections going on so topical vote wnner.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 20 November 2018, 13:06:41
I wondered when Spain would raise Gibraltar. Typical of Spain to do so at the eleventh hour. Elections going on so topical vote wnner.
They can have it as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 20 November 2018, 13:59:36
Almost inevitable that 'Gib' would come up.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 20 November 2018, 14:03:09
.........96% remain 4% leave. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 20 November 2018, 14:07:32
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...

Yes apparently if there is no deal, we'll run out of Mars bars in 2 weeks!  :o

If there is no deal we will have issues way beyond that! (from an industry perspective)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 20 November 2018, 16:24:06
I wondered when Spain would raise Gibraltar. Typical of Spain to do so at the eleventh hour. Elections going on so topical vote wnner.
Does that then mean that they will give up the enclaves they have in North Africa?  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 November 2018, 16:26:46
Swap them perhaps  :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 20 November 2018, 17:38:00
Swap them perhaps  :D

What, we get North Africa? I don't think that would be a good deal, and I have zero idea what Gibraltar is good for ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 20 November 2018, 17:43:54
Swap them perhaps  :D

What, we get North Africa? I don't think that would be a good deal, and I have zero idea what Gibraltar is good for ;D

To stop the French or Italians having naval superiority in the Med:  oh, hang on that was another century!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 20 November 2018, 18:00:06
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...

Yes apparently if there is no deal, we'll run out of Mars bars in 2 weeks!  :o

If there is no deal we will have issues way beyond that! (from an industry perspective)

It seems to me from a layman's perspective that British business and industry has made no contingency plans for a UK withdrawal from the European Union, which given the level of Euro-scepticism they should have had plans in place for years.  :-\

Blair toyed with the idea of a referendum, but bottled it. Cameron first made the commitment in 2014 at which point I thought we'd be leaving and I'm just the stupid boy from the local comp to quote our Dear Leader.   In the event they have had two and a half years to prepare for the worst, but they havn't and are now squealing!  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 20 November 2018, 19:46:49
Swap them perhaps  :D

What, we get North Africa? I don't think that would be a good deal, and I have zero idea what Gibraltar is good for ;D

To stop the French or Italians having naval superiority in the Med:  oh, hang on that was another century!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

Close Lizzie. It is actually about the Russian navy and subs. Plus refuelling and provisioning point for our navy.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 20 November 2018, 21:13:32
Swap them perhaps  :D

What, we get North Africa? I don't think that would be a good deal, and I have zero idea what Gibraltar is good for ;D

To stop the French or Italians having naval superiority in the Med:  oh, hang on that was another century!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

Close Lizzie. It is actually about the Russian navy and subs. Plus refuelling and provisioning point for our navy.

I was referring to WW2 last century.

As for Russian subs, they can exit the Baltic or, if they are in the med. (with modern long range missles they do not have to be) they can slip through the Gibralter Straight as who is going to stop them?  We cannot even keep Russian subs and their surface ships away from the English Channel!

Gone are the days when RN heavies could command any of those areas of sea.

As for the replenishment of provisions that can be done in any friendly port or simply by RASing.  That is why the ports of Malta and Gibralter are no longer vital to the Royal Navy.

No, Gibralter is useful as a stop off point, but really the UK only holds onto it for political reasons, and because the Gibraltarians do not want to be part of Spain ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 20 November 2018, 22:07:58
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...

Yes apparently if there is no deal, we'll run out of Mars bars in 2 weeks!  :o

If there is no deal we will have issues way beyond that! (from an industry perspective)

It seems to me from a layman's perspective that British business and industry has made no contingency plans for a UK withdrawal from the European Union, which given the level of Euro-scepticism they should have had plans in place for years.  :-\

Blair toyed with the idea of a referendum, but bottled it. Cameron first made the commitment in 2014 at which point I thought we'd be leaving and I'm just the stupid boy from the local comp to quote our Dear Leader.   In the event they have had two and a half years to prepare for the worst, but they havn't and are now squealing!  ::)

For about 95% of exports and imports it will have no effect where the EU has average WTO tariffs on most items with food & cars being the biggest exceptions and they export much more of those to us than we do to them. Services which is a UK strength is not part of the Single Market and not subject to one size fits all regulations. The management & directors of all medium to large businesses will have contingency plans where it is part of the job.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 21 November 2018, 01:27:32
What they say and do are different things... They could all vote it through yet publicly say that they didn't.

The trouble with this proposal is that it has to be an unilateral compromise. Anything else is even less palettable.

There will be some ranting and jumping up and down, but ultimately it will go through. It simply has to.

Why? Then we are trapped.  It's the devil or the deep blue sea.  ::)  and we should set sail.  :y
I never said it was good, it's simply that the alternatives are worse...

Yes apparently if there is no deal, we'll run out of Mars bars in 2 weeks!  :o

If there is no deal we will have issues way beyond that! (from an industry perspective)

It seems to me from a layman's perspective that British business and industry has made no contingency plans for a UK withdrawal from the European Union, which given the level of Euro-scepticism they should have had plans in place for years.  :-\

Blair toyed with the idea of a referendum, but bottled it. Cameron first made the commitment in 2014 at which point I thought we'd be leaving and I'm just the stupid boy from the local comp to quote our Dear Leader.   In the event they have had two and a half years to prepare for the worst, but they havn't and are now squealing!  ::)

For about 95% of exports and imports it will have no effect where the EU has average WTO tariffs on most items with food & cars being the biggest exceptions and they export much more of those to us than we do to them. Services which is a UK strength is not part of the Single Market and not subject to one size fits all regulations. The management & directors of all medium to large businesses will have contingency plans where it is part of the job.

You think so Rods?  ???  :-\

They all seem like a bunch of rabbits caught in the headlights to me.  ::)  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 21 November 2018, 08:49:49
"Contingency plans" in my sector means "Outsource it all to India"..
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 21 November 2018, 08:59:30
"Contingency plans" in my sector means "Outsource it all to India"..
Most firms are still trying to recover from the last time they did that ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 21 November 2018, 09:34:10
"Contingency plans" in my sector means "Outsource it all to India"..
Most firms are still trying to recover from the last time they did that ;D

Not in the IT world - we've now turned full circle and are fully back on the outsourcing thing again.. Give it five years and it'll start to swing back again, I suspect.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 21 November 2018, 10:47:08
Giving call handlers on the Indian sub continent, who earn about £2.50 a week, access to your banking and credit card details. What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 November 2018, 11:21:56
Giving call handlers on the Indian sub continent, who earn about £2.50 a week, access to your banking and credit card details. What could possibly go wrong?

I asked customer service about this.

They informed me the company was responding to what we the customer had requested. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 21 November 2018, 11:36:37
I asked customer service about this.

They informed me the company was responding to what we the customer had requested. ;D

The customer wants everything cheaper. Cheaper. Cheaper. The company wants to maintain profit margins. So you need to provide all your services for less..

Guess how you cut costs as a company? ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 21 November 2018, 12:31:21
Do customers want cheaper? No one asks us.

Living in the sticks as we do, price is often low on our priorities. Availability for one is more important. Another is will it work, happen. For call centres short waiting time and efficient call handling.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 November 2018, 12:38:53
I asked customer service about this.

They informed me the company was responding to what we the customer had requested. ;D

The customer wants everything cheaper. Cheaper. Cheaper. The company wants to maintain profit margins. So you need to provide all your services for less..

Guess how you cut costs as a company? ;)

Pay peanuts to people who live in a mud hut.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 21 November 2018, 12:41:06
I asked customer service about this.

They informed me the company was responding to what we the customer had requested. ;D

The customer wants everything cheaper. Cheaper. Cheaper. The company wants to maintain profit margins. So you need to provide all your services for less..

Guess how you cut costs as a company? ;)

Pay peanuts to people who live in a mud hut.
That's the colonial spirit. Jacob Rees Mogg is looking for an advisor, I believe.  :y





Not...Jacob Rees Mogadishu, as my contraption wanted to type.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 21 November 2018, 18:03:56
"Contingency plans" in my sector means "Outsource it all to India"..
Other "low cost" countries are available.

And its just the excuse most companies, IT or otherwise, are looking for, because they need to absorb the costs of exiting the EU with no deal, and outsourcing to India in IT offers savings far above the WTO threshold, even by the time you account for needing twice as many due to the quality of staff available.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 21 November 2018, 18:04:51
Do customers want cheaper? No one asks us.
Yes, as many ask questions when cancelling a service, and number one answer is price...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 21 November 2018, 18:39:44
Do customers want cheaper? No one asks us.
Yes, as many ask questions when cancelling a service, and number one answer is price...
You're confusing price and value for money...

People object to paying over the odds for less than mediocre service.

Most companies great at telling customers what they want, but invariably suck balls at delivering what the customer actually wants ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 21 November 2018, 21:53:14
It appears to me that those preferring WTO/Hard Brexit over the Chequers deal don't understand the consequences of that.

WTO rules means you have to treat all WTO members you trade with equally. It you apply tariffs to one country/block, you must apply them to all. Similarly if you apply no tariffs for a given product to one country/block then you cannot apply tariffs for that product to any other WTO member. It's called the "Most favoured nation" rule.

The upshot is that you more or less have to impose a hard border both ways in Ireland to trade on WTO terms. The UK cannot import (for instance) Irish Beef into Northern Ireland "tariff free" unless it allows all other EU and WTO countries to export Beef into the UK (via whatever route) tariff free. So we'd have to be checking and controlling all imports across the Eire/NI boarder to claim WTO compliance. If we don't other, WTO Beef exporters (like the USA) will object.

Similarly, Eire cannot allow the UK or NI to export into Eire without checks. Eire will still be in the EU, and the EU is a customs union. The EU cannot allow unfettered access across the NI boarder and still claim WTO compliance. Since the EU does a lot of trade with the rest of the world on WTO terms, the EU won't want to risk aggro at the WTO.

The result of all this is that the Good Friday Agreement and WTO are basically incompatible with each other. You can have one or the other, but not both.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 21 November 2018, 21:59:08
Good Friday agreement was a completely unnecessary con trick by Blair, which has long since lost what little relevance it did have. Binning it is nothing to be worried about.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 21 November 2018, 22:06:17
Good Friday agreement was a completely unnecessary con trick by Blair, which has long since lost what little relevance it did have. Binning it is nothing to be worried about.  ;)

Do I take it you are volunteering to man one of the checkpoints between Eire and NI then?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 21 November 2018, 22:08:29
I'd be very happy with a hard border. Eire is a country and, as a country, they decided to join the EU. Why would we have an open border with a foreign country.
As for the not-so-veiled threats from the gay Indian, he'd have to be held responsible for any actions of violence committed by nationals of his country.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 21 November 2018, 22:16:09
We could always invade Eire... Border wouldn't be an issue then...

Besides Ireland would benefit from being dragged kicking and screaming into the real world.  :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 21 November 2018, 22:35:34
We could always invade Eire... Border wouldn't be an issue then...

Besides Ireland would benefit from being dragged kicking and screaming into the real world.  :-X
That would cost us billions. They only survive on EU handouts.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 21 November 2018, 23:11:28
Good Friday agreement was a completely unnecessary con trick by Blair, which has long since lost what little relevance it did have. Binning it is nothing to be worried about.  ;)

Do I take it you are volunteering to man one of the checkpoints between Eire and NI then?

Like all remainers you are pedaling this nonsense of physical barriers being installed and men in peaked caps checking every vehicle that goes through causing massive tailbacks and chaos.  ::)

All parties involved, the EU and the British and Irish governments have committed to no hard borders on the island of Ireland whatever happens.  Which renders the ridiculous backstop a complete and utter waste of time and shows it for what it is.  A trap!

As well as that, the WTO's Trade Facilitation Agreement obliges members to maintain borders which are as frictionless as possible, using modern technologies such as electronic processing of documents and payments.  Not only that but excessive non tariff barriers to trade such as health and safety checks are banned under WTO rules.

Nothing has to happen at the border.  If checks are required then they can take place well away from the border.... in the RoI seeing as they seem so concerned!  The facility that carries out the veterinary checks at Rotterdam is 20 kms away from the port, so this sort of thing already happens.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 21 November 2018, 23:43:16
The implication is that it will bring about the return of the IRA with their guns and bombs.
A little lesson in recent history is needed on this, as it was rewritten almost before it had finished taking place.

In the early to mid 90,s the IRA were in deep trouble. The money from the U.S to fund their campaign was quickly drying up. The leadership (Mad dog McGuiness in particular) knew the UK powers that be had been investigating their crimes, and it wasn't going to be long before they were behind bars for life for many murders.
The community they claimed to represent was sick and tired of the violence and support had dwindled away.
The leadership sent a message, via an intermediary to the UK Govt. saying that they wanted to cease the violent campaign but wanted a dignified way out, rather than a surrender.
Talks began behind the scenes along these lines, but then Major lost the election and B. liar was in charge.
He approached the whole thing with a "Hi guys, would would you like me to do for you" attitude, and Adams and McGuiness saw a great opportunity, which is why they nicknamed him The idiot, behind his back.
Blair gave them so much that he didnt need to (pretty much what Mayhem is doing with the EU at the moment) and the end result was the ludicrous Good Friday agreement. Which allowed all the terrorists out of prison, even those serving life sentences for mass murder. Gave "get out of jail cards to those who weren't in prison but should be. And put the IRA leadership in Govt. in Northern Ireland.
Coincidently, I was in Belfast visiting the family the day it was signed, and remember how suspicious a lot of people were, but agreed to give it a try to end the violence.
When some time had passed and it became clear exactly what they had signed up to people were livid, but it was too late by then.
Point is, the IRA aren't coming back. They surrendered in all but name, and the world has changed so much since then that they would get almost no support from previous supporters, inside or outside Ireland if they wanted to try to make a comeback.
The constant veiled threat of them coming back of we don't do what the EU and Dublin demand about the border is nothing short of sick and makes my blood boil.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 21 November 2018, 23:44:33
Good Friday agreement was a completely unnecessary con trick by Blair, which has long since lost what little relevance it did have. Binning it is nothing to be worried about.  ;)

Do I take it you are volunteering to man one of the checkpoints between Eire and NI then?

My Father before me did ( as a B special) and if it came to it, I would happily do the same.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 21 November 2018, 23:45:46
Also, I read somewhere a while back that there are provisions in WTO for countries exiting trade arrangements which allows them time to negotiate new arrangements before going to WTO rules.  There are also provisions for  contentious borders, so I very much doubt that the WTO are going to insist on Eire/NI frontier checks.

I think everyone would agree that the Irish border is an extraordinary situation and I also think it shows the lack of understanding of Irish politics shown by Barnier, Junker and Tusk in their willingness to weaponise this issue.  In Varadkar's case I can't decide if he's naive, stupid, irresponsible or if it's just that he cares more about his career than anything else!  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 22 November 2018, 00:03:57
Juncker staggered off the stage at a conference a few days ago wearing one brown shoe and one black, I kid you not, so could we really expect him to understand anything ?  ::)
Varadkar is an irresponsible, opportunist, two bob chancer just like Macron in France. A d1ckhead of the highest order.
Having said that all of the above are running rings around our spineless excuse for a PM.   :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 22 November 2018, 09:05:50
"Contingency plans" in my sector means "Outsource it all to India"..
Other "low cost" countries are available.

And its just the excuse most companies, IT or otherwise, are looking for, because they need to absorb the costs of exiting the EU with no deal, and outsourcing to India in IT offers savings far above the WTO threshold, even by the time you account for needing twice as many due to the quality of staff available.

Working for a US company, with the vast majority of our business done inside the US and APAC, I don't think the EU has a jot to do with our current (global) outsourcing.. and yes, it's not just India - jobs are moving to Mexico, Poland and India, in our case, because the US, Western Europe (Spain was mooted but deemed too expensive) and "first world" Asia (Singapore, in our case) are too expensive.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: LC0112G on 22 November 2018, 10:16:48
All parties involved, the EU and the British and Irish governments have committed to no hard borders on the island of Ireland whatever happens.

Yes, everyone seems to be bending over backwards to avoid a hard border - which is why the Chequers agreement includes a customs agreement - in order for both the EU and UK to avoid falling foul of WTO rules. We can either have a Hard Border and WTO, or a soft border + customs arrangement + WTO. What we can't have is a soft border and WTO.

How "hard" the hard border has to be and how long we've got to implement it is of course up for debate. But none of the infrastructure is currently in place, and the implementation phase is currently planned to be 3 ish years which isn't a lot of time for any Govt high tech scheme.

Also, I read somewhere a while back that there are provisions in WTO for countries exiting trade arrangements which allows them time to negotiate new arrangements before going to WTO rules.  There are also provisions for  contentious borders, so I very much doubt that the WTO are going to insist on Eire/NI frontier checks.

That isn't what happens. What happens is that some third country member of the WTO complains to the WTO about a second country getting more favourable treatment. Whilst the WTO decides on the merits of the case (takes months/years), that third country typically imposes punitive tariffs on some import to their country from the offending country/countries. If that third country is the USA complaining about us giving unfair treatment to Eire imports, then there are plenty of things they can penalise that will really hurt. That's basically what happened between Canada and the USA over Bombardier.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 22 November 2018, 11:09:32
Juncker staggered off the stage at a conference a few days ago wearing one brown shoe and one black, I kid you not, so could we really expect him to understand anything ?  ::)
Varadkar is an irresponsible, opportunist, two bob chancer just like Macron in France. A d1ckhead of the highest order.
Having said that all of the above are running rings around our spineless excuse for a PM.   :(

He is either permanently pissed or recovering from a stroke. His hands are everywhere (all over Theresa) like some sort of 'pervy uncle' who gets over excited when a group of teenage girls turn up. :)

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 22 November 2018, 11:47:25
Juncker staggered off the stage at a conference a few days ago wearing one brown shoe and one black, I kid you not, so could we really expect him to understand anything ?  ::)
Varadkar is an irresponsible, opportunist, two bob chancer just like Macron in France. A d1ckhead of the highest order.
Having said that all of the above are running rings around our spineless excuse for a PM.   :(

He is either permanently pissed or recovering from a stroke. His hands are everywhere (all over Theresa) like some sort of 'pervy uncle' who gets over excited when a group of teenage girls turn up. :)
Clearly his eyesight isn't that much cop either, then. ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 22 November 2018, 12:31:24
The old boy reminds me of Boris Yeltsin once he had a sniff of the vodka bottle. ;D ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s2Wgcj0wdY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s2Wgcj0wdY)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 22 November 2018, 17:23:55
I think you'd have to be brave, stupid or drunk to slap Victor Orban around the face!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 22 November 2018, 18:08:17
Juncker staggered off the stage at a conference a few days ago wearing one brown shoe and one black, I kid you not, so could we really expect him to understand anything ?  ::)
Varadkar is an irresponsible, opportunist, two bob chancer just like Macron in France. A d1ckhead of the highest order.
Having said that all of the above are running rings around our spineless excuse for a PM.   :(

He is either permanently pissed or recovering from a stroke. His hands are everywhere (all over Theresa) like me, when I get over excited when a group of teenage girls turn up. :)

At least your honest about it  I suppose.  :-\ ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 22 November 2018, 18:36:12
Juncker staggered off the stage at a conference a few days ago wearing one brown shoe and one black, I kid you not, so could we really expect him to understand anything ?  ::)
Varadkar is an irresponsible, opportunist, two bob chancer just like Macron in France. A d1ckhead of the highest order.
Having said that all of the above are running rings around our spineless excuse for a PM.   :(

He is either permanently pissed or recovering from a stroke. His hands are everywhere (all over Theresa) like me, when I get over excited when a group of teenage girls turn up. :)

At least your honest about it  I suppose.  :-\ ;D

It's not the girls themselves. They just remind him of the joys of Marina ownership. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 22 November 2018, 23:11:05
What we can't have is a soft border and WTO.

Why not?? The WTO are actively encouraging frictionless borders.  ::)

We could and should be at the forefront of developing the protocols and technologies required to make this work and then could export this expertise worldwide.  :y  That's probably magical thinking for most remainer types though.  ;D

But none of the infrastructure is currently in place....

There is already infrastructure at the border as there are cameras there, so all this talk of no infrastructure is nonsense. If you mean physical barriers however, that just isn't going to happen as all parties involved have pledged not to erect a hard border, even in a No Deal scenario.  As said earlier there are WTO provisions for contentious borders where WTO members can take actions not taken at other borders for security reasons. 

....the implementation phase is currently planned to be 3 ish years which isn't a lot of time for any Govt high tech scheme.

HMRC have already said that they can adapt existing systems for the Irish border and can have it operational by the end of the planned transition period (December 2020), which looks likely to be extended anyway to December 2022. 

That isn't what happens. What happens is that some third country member of the WTO complains to the WTO about a second country getting more favourable treatment. Whilst the WTO decides on the merits of the case (takes months/years), that third country typically imposes punitive tariffs on some import to their country from the offending country/countries. If that third country is the USA complaining about us giving unfair treatment to Eire imports, then there are plenty of things they can penalise that will really hurt. That's basically what happened between Canada and the USA over Bombardier.


OK that's a fair point, but just an example of the normal rough and tumble of international trade I'd imagine.  Compare that with getting stuck in a Customs Union with a (questionably friendly) foreign power, where there is no legal right of exit without that foreign powers agreement, and no say in how that customs union is operated, in terms of trading arrangements with third countries, the tariffs we'd have to charge and market access we'd have to give.  :-\



Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 23 November 2018, 15:06:00
TM keeps saying "People just want us to get on with it". What she means is "People are so fed up listening to the interminable bollix that I keep coming out with that they've lost the will to live and will accept any deal to make it go away".
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 23 November 2018, 15:19:13
TM keeps saying "People just want us to get on with it". What she means is "People are so fed up listening to the interminable bollix that I keep coming out with that they've lost the will to live and will accept any deal to make it go away".

Although she has repeatedly said there can be no second referendum I'm wondering if she is so pissed off with the job that she thinks "f*uck it......have another vote and then people will stop picking on me".

Peston said last night on TV that for the first time he thought it possible we may stay in the EU.......(presumably with our tail between our legs)

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 23 November 2018, 15:55:16
Well they'd better get on with it as there's only 127 days to go!  :)

Then all the remainers become rejoiners and the leavers become lefters.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 23 November 2018, 16:16:15
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 23 November 2018, 16:20:53
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.

Ole!  :y

Trouble is she'll probably just give 'em Gib, just to get the deal!  ::)

Remember. Any deal is better than no deal!  Yay!  >:(  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 23 November 2018, 16:27:41
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.

Ole!  :y

Trouble is she'll probably just give 'em Gib, just to get the deal!  ::)

Remember. Any deal is better than no deal!  Yay!  >:(  ;D
Just as a matter of interest, when was the last time a British Prime Minister was assassinated?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 23 November 2018, 16:39:02
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.

Ole!  :y

Trouble is she'll probably just give 'em Gib, just to get the deal!  ::)

Remember. Any deal is better than no deal!  Yay!  >:(  ;D
Just as a matter of interest, when was the last time a British Prime Minister was assassinated?

The Americans are better at that sort of thing.

Wouldn't surprise me if some deranged H. Clinton fan shot that nice Mr Trump. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 23 November 2018, 16:43:55
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.

Ole!  :y

Trouble is she'll probably just give 'em Gib, just to get the deal!  ::)

Remember. Any deal is better than no deal!  Yay!  >:(  ;D
Just as a matter of interest, when was the last time a British Prime Minister was assassinated?

The Americans are better at that sort of thing.

Wouldn't surprise me if some deranged H. Clinton fan shot that nice Mr Trump. :)
Surely not? He's harmless, after all.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 23 November 2018, 16:47:45
I'm relying on España to throw a spanner in the works.

Ole!  :y

Trouble is she'll probably just give 'em Gib, just to get the deal!  ::)

Remember. Any deal is better than no deal!  Yay!  >:(  ;D
Just as a matter of interest, when was the last time a British Prime Minister was assassinated?

The Americans are better at that sort of thing.

Wouldn't surprise me if some deranged H. Clinton fan shot that nice Mr Trump. :)
Surely not? He's harmless, after all.

That is what people thought about Norman Bates. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 23 November 2018, 16:53:05
Actually, thinking about it now, Norman Bates was as sane as you or I. It was his mother that was unhinged. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 23 November 2018, 17:27:23
The yanks were given 2 duff options due to how things panned out, and pragmatically took the most appealing of the 2 crap outcomes.

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 23 November 2018, 17:59:08
It wasn't the wish of the 52% and it aint going to get through the commons. Its far from over yet.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 23 November 2018, 18:01:44
The yanks were given 2 duff options due to how things panned out, and pragmatically took the most appalling of the 2 crap outcomes.

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety
Fixed.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: BazaJT on 23 November 2018, 18:32:46
To answer Stemos' question.Last British PM to be assassinated[the only one in fact]was Spencer Perceval bumped off on May11th 1812 he was aged 49 and strangely enough was a Tory :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 23 November 2018, 19:07:07

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety

What utter dingle berries!  ::)

This 'deal' is not a viable option at all for our country and certainly isn't what the 52% voted for!  >:( 

Come to that it's not what the 48% voted for either, as if there was another referendum and the option was leave or become a soviet of the EU, I suspect the percentage for leave would be much much higher.  ;)

Anyone who thinks that going forward the EU will negotiate an FTA in good faith to avoid the absurd backstop needs their head examining!  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 24 November 2018, 14:30:07
Brexit is close now.

Very soon we'll be taking back total control. :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 24 November 2018, 17:21:27
The yanks were given 2 duff options due to how things panned out, and pragmatically took the most appalling of the 2 crap outcomes.

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety
Fixed.
I disagree, he is what the country needs at the moment, after the recent dross. Hilary would have been a complete disaster, as she cares more about herself than her country.

We need similar, but our media means we only ever get the hopeless
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 24 November 2018, 17:27:49

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety

What utter dingle berries!  ::)

This 'deal' is not a viable option at all for our country and certainly isn't what the 52% voted for!  >:( 

Come to that it's not what the 48% voted for either, as if there was another referendum and the option was leave or become a soviet of the EU, I suspect the percentage for leave would be much much higher.  ;)

Anyone who thinks that going forward the EU will negotiate an FTA in good faith to avoid the absurd backstop needs their head examining!  ::)
The bad deal will be here for a generation, as I said 18 months ago.  It was always going to be the outcome. Those who thought the EU would role over and give us everything are the ones who need to look in a mirror ;)

The only other option, even worse, is another vote. Clearly the BBC, brexit fans, feel the need to start mentioning the African migrants every day again, as they did in the time leading up to the referendum.  Obviously, intelligent people understand that being in or out of the EU will not stop illegal immigration, but as we throw, the majority of the population are a bit weak in the head, and believe everything that’s said anywhere
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 25 November 2018, 00:23:30
The yanks were given 2 duff options due to how things panned out, and pragmatically took the most appalling of the 2 crap outcomes.

We have just 1 (viable)option, a bad deal. But this was the wish of the 52%, and how democracy works. It doesn’t take into account naivety
Fixed.
I disagree, he is what the country needs at the moment, after the recent dross. Hilary would have been a complete disaster, as she cares more about herself than her country.

We need similar, but our media means we only ever get the hopeless
I did mean that both were apalling :D Of all the citizens of the USA, couldn,t they have found any better?  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 25 November 2018, 11:16:49
Right, I have sat on the side lines too long!

TM has done her best against 27 other countries.  We are not a super power any longer and we cannot send in our naval fleet to force their hand.  Even in war we have never taken on 27 other countries, and especially not in one block at one time.  We cannot therefore force the other 27 to do totally what we want as a country.

52%, not including me, voted to leave, but at no stage did they specify want they wanted in detail apart from LEAVE the EU.  That is what they are getting, LEAVE.  I have to accept what they wanted, even though the benefits of leaving are very doubtful, but there you go, that is democracy, and by that process that is what we are getting by way of Mrs May committing herself totally to that, and no doubt suffering nightmares every night.........she is learning you can never please all the people all the time.

The moaners who now come in all political colours, in all shades of those variants, now so easily criticise about something they could never have achieved in two years.  This kind of complex deal should have taken 5 years at least (WW2 took 6 years to re-shape Europe!!), but the Leavers wanted it NOW!  So be it, THEY are getting what they wished for, and the rest of the 48% will have to live with it!

Now, every leaver stop winging and just support the democratic leader of this proud country who has achieved so much, in such a short time, against the odds and up against 27 other countries!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 25 November 2018, 12:32:32
That is what they are getting, LEAVE.

But that's the thing Lizzie and why Brexiteers are up in arms.  This treaty won't lead us to leaving the EU, far from it, it will lead us to being further entrenched in the EU institutions but with all our voting rights and representation gone.  That is not what 17,400,000 people voted for and it why people are so angry.  >:(

I can't think of any other democratic nation that would sign an agreement with it's bigger more powerful neighbour that it cannot unilaterally give notice and withdraw from in the way that Mother Theresa has agreed with the absurd backstop.  New Zealand with Australia?, Japan with China?, Sri Lanka with India?, Canada with USA? I can't believe that any of these smaller countries would willingly walk into such a trap and they must be looking on with incredulity at how Britain has 'negotiated' itself into such a position.  ::)

And far from being the insignificant island that TB often talks about, bar Japan we are bigger than all those countries.  The EU will be significantly diminished by the departure of it's second biggest economy and third countries have been talking of renegotiating their trade deals with the EU in the light of this.  Not that the British media report such things.  ::)

After a delegation of prominent British remainers (Clegg, Adonis etc I believe) went to see Barnier to undermine HMG, he was heard to comment that he had never met a bunch of people so negative about their own country and this is the crux of the issue. Attitude.  I am sure that the defeatist negative attitude that TB often displays towards the UK is prevalent amongst the Sir Humphries of the civil service and the establishment at large who are doing their very best to subvert the result of the referendum. It's not that we are an insignificant little island, it just that the officials believe that we are and have utterly failed to play the strong cards we held in terms of the money, our huge trade deficit, access to fishing, military and security cooperation etc

Driving home from Wales late on Friday night BBC Radio 2 news gave much coverage to May's 'deal' and on three bulletins they had three different people talking about the need for another referendum.  Alastair Campbell, Sadiq Khan and I forget the third, but the message was the same.  Three different voices giving the same message.  It's propaganda! drip, drip, drip!  >:(







Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 25 November 2018, 14:00:16
Right, I have sat on the side lines too long!

TM has done her best against 27 other countries.  We are not a super power any longer and we cannot send in our naval fleet to force their hand.  Even in war we have never taken on 27 other countries, and especially not in one block at one time.  We cannot therefore force the other 27 to do totally what we want as a country.

52%, not including me, voted to leave, but at no stage did they specify want they wanted in detail apart from LEAVE the EU.  That is what they are getting, LEAVE.  I have to accept what they wanted, even though the benefits of leaving are very doubtful, but there you go, that is democracy, and by that process that is what we are getting by way of Mrs May committing herself totally to that, and no doubt suffering nightmares every night.........she is learning you can never please all the people all the time.

The moaners who now come in all political colours, in all shades of those variants, now so easily criticise about something they could never have achieved in two years.  This kind of complex deal should have taken 5 years at least (WW2 took 6 years to re-shape Europe!!), but the Leavers wanted it NOW!  So be it, THEY are getting what they wished for, and the rest of the 48% will have to live with it!

Now, every leaver stop winging and just support the democratic leader of this proud country who has achieved so much, in such a short time, against the odds and up against 27 other countries!

Cannot agree with you Lizzie.

Using a war analogy the country should have united with crossparty support and come up with a plan and a backstop of no deal.

You do not need to be a super power to negotiate a good deal just good negotiators with a mandate. History willshow the last two years as a disgrace. No innovation from us just concesson after comcession t the EU. We also let the Irishborder be weaponised. Disgusting.

Timeiscale. Are not the two years partof the article 50 process.?

Lets just glance at remainers. Still banging on about a peoples vote. Ifthat ever happens andresults in go back in the EU just how much of an underdog will we be? What conditions?

Anyway still a long way to go. When the EU votes yes today for what is effectively their agreement and when Parliament votes it down in the UK, what then? Pizza club no deal? If Theresa May haddone a good job parliament and the country would be behind herand the pressure would have been on the unelected leaders of the EU to persuade the 27 to agree the deal.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 25 November 2018, 14:09:56
Right, I have sat on the side lines too long!

TM has done her best against 27 other countries.  We are not a super power any longer and we cannot send in our naval fleet to force their hand.  Even in war we have never taken on 27 other countries, and especially not in one block at one time.  We cannot therefore force the other 27 to do totally what we want as a country.

52%, not including me, voted to leave, but at no stage did they specify want they wanted in detail apart from LEAVE the EU.  That is what they are getting, LEAVE.  I have to accept what they wanted, even though the benefits of leaving are very doubtful, but there you go, that is democracy, and by that process that is what we are getting by way of Mrs May committing herself totally to that, and no doubt suffering nightmares every night.........she is learning you can never please all the people all the time.

The moaners who now come in all political colours, in all shades of those variants, now so easily criticise about something they could never have achieved in two years.  This kind of complex deal should have taken 5 years at least (WW2 took 6 years to re-shape Europe!!), but the Leavers wanted it NOW!  So be it, THEY are getting what they wished for, and the rest of the 48% will have to live with it!

Now, every leaver stop winging and just support the democratic leader of this proud country who has achieved so much, in such a short time, against the odds and up against 27 other countries!

Cannot agree with you Lizzie.

Using a war analogy the country should have united with crossparty support and come up with a plan and a backstop of no deal.

You do not need to be a super power to negotiate a good deal just good negotiators with a mandate. History willshow the last two years as a disgrace. No innovation from us just concesson after comcession t the EU. We also let the Irishborder be weaponised. Disgusting.

Timeiscale. Are not the two years partof the article 50 process.?

Lets just glance at remainers. Still banging on about a peoples vote. Ifthat ever happens andresults in go back in the EU just how much of an underdog will we be? What conditions?

Anyway still a long way to go. When the EU votes yes today for what is effectively their agreement and when Parliament votes it down in the UK, what then? Pizza club no deal? If Theresa May haddone a good job parliament and the country would be behind herand the pressure would have been on the unelected leaders of the EU to persuade the 27 to agree the deal.

Sorry Varche, but if we were the USA we would just tell them what to do, but we are not.  We have to live in the real World, not the British Imperialistic  world of 100 years ago.  Real power makes all the difference in any political negotiation; it always has throughout history and still does.  The reality is that we belong through a very complex long term legal set of agreements to a club of 27 other nations that will not be bullied, and frankly do not want us to leave easily because they know what that would mean. No matter what the UK WANTS, only the EU can give if they want to, and that has formed the basis of the final agreement.

We all can huff and puff as much as we like, but to the EU it will make fxck all difference, and certainly whatever feelings you or I have on this car forum, it will also mean sweet FA.

The only way to change everything is to use our voting powers, but as the country is split many ways on this one I will not be holding my breath for a speedy solution! ::) ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 25 November 2018, 14:32:38
Real power? Fifth or sixth economy in the world is something we should have used. Instead we cower whimpering.

We as a country portrayed ourselves like losers. Very easy for the EU to negotiate with self proclaimed losers. The damage was done by the country not getting behind the referendum result from day one. Ithink it is a uniquely British trait.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 November 2018, 15:35:54
An American yesterday apologized for Trump, and went as far as to suggest that he would gladly sway Donald for the Queen  ;D

I didn't have the heart to suggest that either such a swap would be of more benefit to us, or that I would have voted for Trump given the same choice ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 15:37:44
I'm afraid we have delusions of grandeur.

Perhaps in Victorian Britain when we had control of half the globe getting exactly what we want may have been possible.

We've been given a kicking but it's our own fault.....we started it. ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 15:47:00
Right, I have sat on the side lines too long!

TM has done her best against 27 other countries.  We are not a super power any longer and we cannot send in our naval fleet to force their hand.  Even in war we have never taken on 27 other countries, and especially not in one block at one time.  We cannot therefore force the other 27 to do totally what we want as a country.

52%, not including me, voted to leave, but at no stage did they specify want they wanted in detail apart from LEAVE the EU.  That is what they are getting, LEAVE.  I have to accept what they wanted, even though the benefits of leaving are very doubtful, but there you go, that is democracy, and by that process that is what we are getting by way of Mrs May committing herself totally to that, and no doubt suffering nightmares every night.........she is learning you can never please all the people all the time.

The moaners who now come in all political colours, in all shades of those variants, now so easily criticise about something they could never have achieved in two years.  This kind of complex deal should have taken 5 years at least (WW2 took 6 years to re-shape Europe!!), but the Leavers wanted it NOW!  So be it, THEY are getting what they wished for, and the rest of the 48% will have to live with it!

Now, every leaver stop winging and just support the democratic leader of this proud country who has achieved so much, in such a short time, against the odds and up against 27 other countries!


As I said previously........if we do have a second referendum there should be no third option. We leave with the deal negotiated by the PM or we leave with no deal.

As you have rightly said, we have already decided to leave. Remaining should not become the third option.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 15:53:51
That is what they are getting, LEAVE.

But that's the thing Lizzie and why Brexiteers are up in arms.  This treaty won't lead us to leaving the EU, far from it, it will lead us to being further entrenched in the EU institutions but with all our voting rights and representation gone.  That is not what 17,400,000 people voted for and it why people are so angry.  >:(

I can't think of any other democratic nation that would sign an agreement with it's bigger more powerful neighbour that it cannot unilaterally give notice and withdraw from in the way that Mother Theresa has agreed with the absurd backstop.  New Zealand with Australia?, Japan with China?, Sri Lanka with India?, Canada with USA? I can't believe that any of these smaller countries would willingly walk into such a trap and they must be looking on with incredulity at how Britain has 'negotiated' itself into such a position.  ::)

And far from being the insignificant island that TB often talks about, bar Japan we are bigger than all those countries.  The EU will be significantly diminished by the departure of it's second biggest economy and third countries have been talking of renegotiating their trade deals with the EU in the light of this.  Not that the British media report such things.  ::)

After a delegation of prominent British remainers (Clegg, Adonis etc I believe) went to see Barnier to undermine HMG, he was heard to comment that he had never met a bunch of people so negative about their own country and this is the crux of the issue. Attitude.  I am sure that the defeatist negative attitude that TB often displays towards the UK is prevalent amongst the Sir Humphries of the civil service and the establishment at large who are doing their very best to subvert the result of the referendum. It's not that we are an insignificant little island, it just that the officials believe that we are and have utterly failed to play the strong cards we held in terms of the money, our huge trade deficit, access to fishing, military and security cooperation etc

Driving home from Wales late on Friday night BBC Radio 2 news gave much coverage to May's 'deal' and on three bulletins they had three different people talking about the need for another referendum.  Alastair Campbell, Sadiq Khan and I forget the third, but the message was the same.  Three different voices giving the same message.  It's propaganda! drip, drip, drip!  >:(

It's like needing permission from Mum. ;) ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 25 November 2018, 16:13:48
As I said previously........if we do have a second referendum there should be no third option. We leave with the deal negotiated by the PM or we leave with no deal.

As you have rightly said, we have already decided to leave. Remaining should not become the third option.

If there is a second referendum I expect the question will be heavily loaded against leaving and I doubt No Deal would be presented as an option, unless it is used as a three way question to split the leave vote.  Leave with no deal, leave with May's crappy deal or remain.  ::)

But I think it will be something like, May's crappy deal or remain.   :-\

Sadly I suspect Remain would win such a vote, not because Leavers have changed their minds as is claimed, far from it, but because people would be so disillusioned by this governments incompetence that the leave turnout would be low and remainers would be more motivated.  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 16:52:03
As I said previously........if we do have a second referendum there should be no third option. We leave with the deal negotiated by the PM or we leave with no deal.

As you have rightly said, we have already decided to leave. Remaining should not become the third option.

If there is a second referendum I expect the question will be heavily loaded against leaving and I doubt No Deal would be presented as an option, unless it is used as a three way question to split the leave vote.  Leave with no deal, leave with May's crappy deal or remain.  ::)

But I think it will be something like, May's crappy deal or remain.   :-\

Sadly I suspect Remain would win such a vote, not because Leavers have changed their minds as is claimed, far from it, but because people would be so disillusioned by this governments incompetence that the leave turnout would be low and remainers would be more motivated.  :-\

This would amount to a big 'f*uck you' to `17.4 million voters........who would probably think there is no point in voting again if the government is so dismissive.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 November 2018, 16:57:02
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: BazaJT on 25 November 2018, 18:41:38
Ok it was never going to happen but if all political parties had got behind this instead of trying to score points/trying to gain political advantage then we might just might have made a better fist of this.However regardless the final outcome was never going to please everyone no matter what was negotiated.For the record I voted leave and were there to be a second round[though there shouldn't be]I'd still vote leave nothing I've heard/seen/read has changed my mind on that.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 25 November 2018, 18:45:33
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(

Yes indeed.  I think the media are generally hyping this up for their own commercial ends, not in the interests of our country :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 25 November 2018, 19:03:19
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 25 November 2018, 19:06:13
I'm afraid we have delusions of grandeur.

Perhaps in Victorian Britain when we had control of half the globe getting exactly what we want may have been possible.

We've been given a kicking but it's our own fault.....we started it. ::)
Nooooo, you can’t go spouting the truth like that.  Surely the strongest side will roll over and let us take whatever we want, just because we’re british
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 19:07:10
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs


Charming. :) ;)

Not every woman can be as attractive as Shami. :-*
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 25 November 2018, 19:10:50
Ten years ago, possibly worth a squirt if you could gag her, and can tolerate that having-a-stroke look.

But now, time has not treated her well
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 25 November 2018, 19:13:28
Ten years ago, possibly worth a squirt if you could gag her, and can tolerate that having-a-stroke look.

But now, time has not treated her well

I think she would smile more if cured of her feminism.

Feminists are always angry and angsty. :)

.......much like vegans.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 25 November 2018, 19:37:52
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs

She is left wing and pro remain. She wouldn't be allowed to work for the BBC if she was anything else. The only exception being Andrew Neil, and there are presently moves afoot to pension him off.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 25 November 2018, 19:39:55
Someone who knows a thing or two about business and money matters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIlvsk1dphE
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 November 2018, 20:39:31
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs
Laura Kuensbergg...  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 25 November 2018, 21:04:01
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs
Laura Kuensbergg...  ???

No I think he's referring to Wee Krankie!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 November 2018, 02:47:23
Perhaps before passing judgment we should actually read the documents...

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/draft-agreement-withdrawal-uk-eu-agreed-negotiators-level-14-november-2018-including-text-article-132_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/political-declaration-setting-out-framework-future-relationship-between-european-union-and-united-kingdom_en

 :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 26 November 2018, 08:57:34
Perhaps before passing judgment we should actually read the documents...

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/draft-agreement-withdrawal-uk-eu-agreed-negotiators-level-14-november-2018-including-text-article-132_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/political-declaration-setting-out-framework-future-relationship-between-european-union-and-united-kingdom_en

 :-X

TL;DR  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 13:05:10
That little twa twerp Gove is now singing the praises of this deal. HTF does he keep getting elected to parliament? He changes his mind more often than I change my undercrackers. No...hang on....more often than that.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 13:08:08
After all the ranting and raving, this might just get through. Then we can all have a nice cup of tea.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 26 November 2018, 13:17:50
After all the ranting and raving, this might just get through. Then we can all have a nice cup of tea.  :)

Hope not!  ::)

Micron said yesterday that he would veto any trade deal that didn't maintain current access to Britain's waters for the French fishing fleet, and this would mean Britain would be stuck in the Customs Union.

There he's said it.  They will use the absurd backstop where we have no legal unilateral right of exit, as maximum leverage to get what they want.  Anyone who thinks that they will negotiate a mutually favourable deal in good faith to avoid the backstop are fools, and yet they'll all be on the radio and telly for the next two weeks telling us exactly that!  >:(

Tell a lie often enough....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 13:33:04
If it does get through, the middle aged and older amongst us will lick our wounds and be resentful for years to come. The youngsters will think they have saved us from solitary confinement until, in years to come, they realise they have actually sold our souls.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 13:35:08
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 26 November 2018, 17:11:05
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.

If Russia invades us don't expect any help from the EU once we leave. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 26 November 2018, 17:16:51
Yeah ,but if the bear invaded any of them they'd soon come bleating for our help , again.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 17:20:55
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.

If Russia invades us don't expect any help from the EU once we leave. :)
They'd have to cross the EU to get to us. That would give us around 6 hours to prepare.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 26 November 2018, 17:51:50
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.

If Russia invades us don't expect any help from the EU once we leave. :)
They'd have to cross the EU to get to us. That would give us around 6 hours to prepare.  ;D
But the EU is going to get its own army - so we'd be alerted by the rumble of tanks reversing through the channel tunnel. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 26 November 2018, 17:53:37
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.

If Russia invades us don't expect any help from the EU once we leave. :)

Theywouldnt bother with Britain. Havent you heard Remainers describe us wholesomely as an insignificant island. No Germany would be a better target and they havent got an army yet.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 26 November 2018, 18:03:41
Vlad is watching and, realising what a f*ucking mess the west is in at the moment, has decided to play games with Ukraine.

If Russia invades us don't expect any help from the EU once we leave. :)

Theywouldnt bother with Britain. Havent you heard Remainers describe us wholesomely as an insignificant island. No Germany would be a better target and they havent got an army yet.

The most resistance the Russians would meet on their westward advance, would be from left behind WW1 ordinance in Flanders on their way to CheeseEatingSurrenderMonkeyland!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 26 November 2018, 18:07:52
Just seen your poll doctor Gollum.

It highlights the problem withwording of referendums / polls.

How about

1. Mays marvellous deal

2. Chaos of no deal

3. Uncertainty of negotiating a deal without ludicrous backstop.

I suspect for those words option one would receive most votes.


Gaining concensus is an every day scenario in business, life and  politics.  Todo it effectively is an art. The UK is horribly divided by Brexit and I cannot see those wounds healing quickly.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 November 2018, 19:54:34
The thing is, the EU will be carrying without us regardless of what Parliament decides.

Accepting the deal and moving forward by using the Transition Period to negotiate the finer details of each point of contention is the only reasonable approach to the situation.

This needs to be done by a unilateral parliamentary group unconstrained by personal motive. Once the Transition Period is concluded, the dust needs to settle before a General Election...

So I suppose the real question is how do we go about forming a unilateral government to oversee the UK for the next four or five years in order to move us forward?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 20:01:27
The thing is, the EU will be carrying without us regardless of what Parliament decides.

Accepting the deal and moving forward by using the Transition Period to negotiate the finer details of each point of contention is the only reasonable approach to the situation.

This needs to be done by a unilateral parliamentary group unconstrained by personal motive. Once the Transition Period is concluded, the dust needs to settle before a General Election...

So I suppose the real question is how do we go about forming a unilateral government to oversee the UK for the next four or five years in order to move us forward?
That's the only reasonable approach.....according to you. Fortunately, that approach has no chance of success. Out means out, and f*uck them.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 26 November 2018, 21:39:58
The phrase 'cut your nose off to spite your face' springs to mind...

I agree that the breakem approach is what people voted for. However it should be clear that at this point in the process, such an approach would only serve to completely screw us over.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 26 November 2018, 21:42:42
Some more than others.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 27 November 2018, 10:48:25
I see Donald has put the boot in. But, then again, he seems to be that kinda of fella. Never kick a man till he's down.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 27 November 2018, 11:22:19
I see Donald has put the boot in. But, then again, he seems to be that kinda of fella. Never kick a man till he's down.

"A good deal for the EU." Donald Trump

On Sunday EU leaders took just 38 minutes to approve the deal amid much smiles, back slapping and laughter, so the Donald ain't wrong.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 27 November 2018, 12:28:15
I see Donald has put the boot in. But, then again, he seems to be that kinda of fella. Never kick a man till he's down.

"A good deal for the EU." Donald Trump

On Sunday EU leaders took just 38 minutes to approve the deal amid much smiles, back slapping and laughter, so the Donald ain't wrong.  ::)

It's a piss poor deal but the best we were ever going to get.

The idea of leaving the EU was that it was strangling us. It was time to move forward to horizons new. Within a decade we would be a superpower once more, like in Victorian times.  ::)

It hasn't worked out that way. We've gone from the optimism of 'the best deal ever' to being almost grateful for a few scraps from the EU table. :-\

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 27 November 2018, 12:42:21
If we 'no deal' do we get to keep the 39 billion? ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 27 November 2018, 14:21:52
If we 'no deal' do we get to keep the 39 billion? ::)

No, but as I understand it our financial obligations that are legally due are significantly less than £39 Billion.  :y

For example there are the budget contributions for the 19 month transition/implementation period to December 2020 which is probably worth £15-16 billion that we wouldn't have to pay.  :y

Don't forget that also they are talking about extending the transition/implementation period for a year maybe two and I think it's reasonable to assume that this will cost at least £10 Bill a year!  ???

Rather than meekly writing off the value of our share of the assets held by the EU, we could tot that up and deduct it from the total due.  :y 

I think there have been other 'goodwill' payments that have been agreed as well that we wouldn't have to pay in the event of No Deal, but they have been (probably deliberately) vague in how the £39 Billion has been calculated.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 27 November 2018, 15:05:17
If we 'no deal' do we get to keep the 39 billion? ::)

No, but as I understand it our financial obligations that are legally due are significantly less than £39 Billion.  :y

For example there are the budget contributions for the 19 month transition/implementation period to December 2020 which is probably worth £15-16 billion that we wouldn't have to pay.  :y

Don't forget that also they are talking about extending the transition/implementation period for a year maybe two and I think it's reasonable to assume that this will cost at least £10 Bill a year!  ???

Rather than meekly writing off the value of our share of the assets held by the EU, we could tot that up and deduct it from the total due.  :y 

I think there have been other 'goodwill' payments that have been agreed as well that we wouldn't have to pay in the event of No Deal, but they have been (probably deliberately) vague in how the £39 Billion has been calculated.  ::)


.....which, in reality, could mean for an indeterminable amount of time. Probably forever.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 27 November 2018, 17:38:45
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs

She is left wing and pro remain. She wouldn't be allowed to work for the BBC if she was anything else. The only exception being Andrew Neil, and there are presently moves afoot to pension him off.
That's conkers, and you know it.  BBC News is pro exit (at any cost - the deal or no deal), hence showing the daily migrant problems again for the first time since the referendum...   ...just because their were whisperings of another vote.

You're right on the left wing bit though.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 27 November 2018, 17:40:43
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs
Laura Kuensbergg...  ???

No I think he's referring to Wee Krankie!  ;D
Difficult to tell them apart, both want the same things - and exit from the EU, and Scottish independence.  The former to get the latter, as they, understandably, want to rejoin the EU
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 27 November 2018, 18:02:10
Having just heard TM's statement, I feel somewhat more optimistic than the media types would like us to be.

That bloody woman from the Beeb needs to be educated on the meaning of journalistic integrity though >:(
If you’re talking about the ugly blonde Scottish bint who looks like she lost an an argument with a cricket bat, she is pro brexit as it helps her political beleifs

She is left wing and pro remain. She wouldn't be allowed to work for the BBC if she was anything else. The only exception being Andrew Neil, and there are presently moves afoot to pension him off.
That's conkers, and you know it.  BBC News is pro exit (at any cost - the deal or no deal), hence showing the daily migrant problems again for the first time since the referendum...   ...just because their were whisperings of another vote.

You're right on the left wing bit though.

Eh??  ???  :o  WTF have you been smoking?  ::)  :P  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 27 November 2018, 18:10:58
Eh??  ???  :o  WTF have you been smoking?  ::)  :P  ;D
Open your eyes.

Notice today that Brexit isn't even the lead story. Migrants is.  I wonder why that could be.


(actually, I know it is anyway, in a professional capacity).
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 27 November 2018, 18:15:06
Eh??  ???  :o  WTF have you been smoking?  ::)  :P  ;D
Open your eyes.

Notice today that Brexit isn't even the lead story. Migrants is.  I wonder why that could be.


(actually, I know it is anyway, in a professional capacity).

Yes I've heard that, but to suggest that the BBC is in any pro BREXIT is utter nonsense!  ;D

I think you need to go and lie down in a darkened room!   ::)  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 27 November 2018, 18:58:46
The reason the "migrants" are the lead story at the moment is that they are now swarming across the channel by any means they can find, because the rumour mill has told them that it will all come to an end after Brexit. Apparently they are all youngish Iranian males.
Fark knows why they think that will make a difference, as they are illegals. Those who lose the automatic right to come here will be the 500 million EU citizens.
Iran must be expelling its citizens with a low I.Q. and advising them to head for England.  ::) ;D
While we are on the subject. Imo, anyone who rescues them and then brings them to this side of the channel, should serve a long sentence for illegal people smnuggling, as that is exactly what they would be doing.
Anyone who rescues them and takes them back to France should be given a reward - say £5000 per person - from the public purse.  :)
The BBC is not only pro EU, it has received millions  of pounds in grants from the EU over the years to buy its loyalty, and has gone to great lengths to try and keep this fact from public view. ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 27 November 2018, 19:46:50
PMSL.

Yes, everyone believe as you wish.


Remember, the EU really really need us, and will roll over any give us everything we want, and give us £200b a day, and even a hedgehog could have got us all this and more.  Wake up ;)


Yes, we all know Brexit won't stop the illegal immigrant of economic migrants.  But the beeb are playing this non-stop currently to put the seed in the mind of the (generally gullible, thick) public that they need to select one of the Brexit options on an increasingly likely (but ultimately undemocratic, and wrong) future referendum.

Nobody denies the deal is shite. Really shite, but its probably as good as was possible when playing with the deck we had.  And that deal ain't gonna change.  And if we vote that one down, that leaves no exit (next most likely) or hard exit (unlikely, as its suicide for the UK).
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 27 November 2018, 22:05:00
If we 'no deal' do we get to keep the 39 billion? ::)

Yes, but your second in the queue as I put first claim on it. :y

No deal is a far better deal than May's sell out. We might also end up doing a 2 year transition period through EEA or EFTA. Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and DUP are all going to vote against the deal on the 11th December along with 50 to 150 Conservative MPs. The deal is universally disliked by most Leavers and Remainers, where May has managed to upset pretty much everybody in the UK apart from Gove and Dr Gollum. Even the number 10 cat doesn't like the deal. :-[
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 27 November 2018, 22:29:42
The reason the "migrants" are the lead story at the moment is that they are now swarming across the channel by any means they can find, because the rumour mill has told them that it will all come to an end after Brexit. Apparently they are all youngish Iranian males.
Fark knows why they think that will make a difference, as they are illegals. Those who lose the automatic right to come here will be the 500 million EU citizens.
Iran must be expelling its citizens with a low I.Q. and advising them to head for England.  ::) ;D
While we are on the subject. Imo, anyone who rescues them and then brings them to this side of the channel, should serve a long sentence for illegal people smnuggling, as that is exactly what they would be doing.
Anyone who rescues them and takes them back to France should be given a reward - say £5000 per person - from the public purse.  :)
The BBC is not only pro EU, it has received millions  of pounds in grants from the EU over the years to buy its loyalty, and has gone to great lengths to try and keep this fact from public view. ;)
Sounds like you,re giving them a cuddle. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 November 2018, 23:57:23
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 11:25:12
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 28 November 2018, 11:39:38
Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(

..and I think this is the reason why she hasn't got a cat in hell's chance of getting it through the commons. There will have to be something less open ended on the table for MPs to put their name to it.

I can't see an agreement with the EU that doesn't involve us either conceding free movement and having some kind of "Norway" deal or leaving the CU and accepting that there will probably be a border in Ireland. May's insistence that some kind of middle ground between them exists is pure fantasy. The longer we pursue that path the more the EU will chip away at her "red lines" and add to our humiliation.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 November 2018, 11:41:48
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(

Do not worry Sir Tigger (YET)! :o :o

The deal as it is obviously will not be voted through by Parliament, Mrs May will retire and others from the left right and centre of politics will take over to do I know not what!!  Then worry!! :D :D

Civil Wars have started on less than this! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

PS I laugh because I do not know what else to do!! :o :o
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 11:53:56
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(

Do not worry Sir Tigger (YET)! :o :o

The deal as it is obviously will not be voted through by Parliament, Mrs May will retire and others from the left right and centre of politics will take over to do I know not what!!  Then worry!! :D :D

Civil Wars have started on less than this! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

PS I laugh because I do not know what else to do!! :o :o

Keep calm and carry on Lizzie!   :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 November 2018, 12:20:01
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(

Do not worry Sir Tigger (YET)! :o :o

The deal as it is obviously will not be voted through by Parliament, Mrs May will retire and others from the left right and centre of politics will take over to do I know not what!!  Then worry!! :D :D

Civil Wars have started on less than this! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

PS I laugh because I do not know what else to do!! :o :o

Keep calm and carry on Lizzie!   :y

I reckon that is all the average person in the street can do!! ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 12:23:44
Thr front page of the telegraph has more conspiracy theories today. The government refusing to publish the details of the legal advice on which the 'deal' is based, after promising to do so. And the about turn on publishing a white paper on immigration.
The more I hear, the more I think TM should be hanged for treason.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 28 November 2018, 14:29:19
Just to give you a flavour of the expat concerns here in Euroland.

There seems to be concensus that reciprocal healthcare cover will continue. e.g. you are in the Spanish nhs having left the Uk nhs. (in this instance the Uk pays Spain £4000 a year ) However no certainty and for a lot of expats it will mean packing bags and going back to Uk if it isn't there. Bit awkward if your only house is here.


Voting rights in elections are currently a right mess. having lived here for 14 years , as of today I do not know if I can vote in next Mays elections here or the Uk for that matter. I might be voteless……………….


saw a great question from an expat today. After Brexit can I up sticks from Spain and go and live in France? I suspect the answer will be no unless you can fund your own French health care.


Not a small problem as there are maybe a million of us in EU land. No one knows the real number of course. :o
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 28 November 2018, 14:32:30
Did anyone see the scare story that UK house prices would drop by a third if we have a no deal Brexit.?

Might be a good thing. The young would be able to get on the housing ladder and the Russians would get more houses for their black money :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 16:02:54
TM says we will be between 60 and 200 billion pounds worse off after brexit, but we won't be any poorer. Obvious really.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 November 2018, 16:36:15
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(
I disagree, pragmatism is our best defence... the alternative is rioting and that always achieves nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 16:46:05
I never said I liked it ::)

Far from it, but I am pragmatic enough to understand that what I might have wanted from it will most likely be somewhat at odds with the 46,499,999 other people in the UK were after...  ;)

This is no time for pragmatism!  ::)

This is not just a bad deal, it's a bloody disaster.  She is sending the negotiators into the next round of talks with their hands tied behind their backs.  :(

The EU will make heavy demands of us like maintaining current fishing access, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar, the 'level playing field' ie we abide by the EU rule book and they won't give anything in return like passporting rights for the City.

Why?  Because they can drive us up the cul-de-sac of the absurd backstop if we don't comply!   :(
I disagree, pragmatism is our best defence... the alternative is rioting and that always achieves nothing.

That's just nonsense.  ::)

That sort of thing might happen in France, but the British sheeple are far to docile for that sort of thing.  ;)

Let's have a nice cup of tea instead!  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 16:54:28
Let's just pragmatically leave with no deal.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 16:55:13
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Gaffers on 28 November 2018, 16:56:47
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?

Judging the level of intellect of some MPs, there is a case for being able to negociate a trade deal with it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 16:59:19
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?

Judging the level of intellect of some MPs, there is a case for being able to negociate a trade deal with it.
They're Heinz beans, so worth about 1.10 tins of Euro beans.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 28 November 2018, 17:20:10
I see Mark Carney has just tried to frighten the living shite out of everybody. Fickin colonial.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 28 November 2018, 17:20:34
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?


Keep them for when the deal proves to be so shit that you need something to barter with.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 28 November 2018, 17:55:26
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?
Keep ,em.  You still have to eat. :)



Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 18:17:42
If we do get a deal, what am I going to do with my shed full of beans?
Keep ,em.  You still have to fart. :)

Might be lucrative as I'm sure that methane will become scarce in no deal brexitland.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 28 November 2018, 18:33:44
Just to give you a flavour of the expat concerns here in Euroland.

There seems to be concensus that reciprocal healthcare cover will continue. e.g. you are in the Spanish nhs having left the Uk nhs. (in this instance the Uk pays Spain £4000 a year ) However no certainty and for a lot of expats it will mean packing bags and going back to Uk if it isn't there. Bit awkward if your only house is here.


Voting rights in elections are currently a right mess. having lived here for 14 years , as of today I do not know if I can vote in next Mays elections here or the Uk for that matter. I might be voteless……………….


saw a great question from an expat today. After Brexit can I up sticks from Spain and go and live in France? I suspect the answer will be no unless you can fund your own French health care.


Not a small problem as there are maybe a million of us in EU land. No one knows the real number of course. :o
Question for you Varche. Was it a few years ago that a lot of expats moved back to Blighty because of the healthcare situation? I suppse joining the "common market" ended that scenario.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 28 November 2018, 18:54:51
Wella lot of folk lived under the radar takng advantage of the lax governance. For example you are supposed to register for residence if you are in Spain for more than 90 consecutive days. With that comes an obligation to pay tax unless you can show your main centre of interest is the UK. E.g. you have a house and famly there and just rent a holiday place. People were also using the EHIC as a form of permanent health provision.

The problem with registering was you had to prove healthcare entitlement or private health care and a minimum , not specified, level ofcash/income to show you weren going to be aburden. Not registered might not be eligible for reciprical healthcare up to time of vote or date of leaving EU.

A lot of people spent six months here and sixback in the uk getting thebest of both worlds but without adhering to the rules.

This backdrop caused a lot of folk to give up on the dream  and go back. Social services, care etc are far better in the UK.

Ironically, Spain has what  istermed a golden visa. Have lots of dosh? Not of EU origin? No problem . The Costas are booming with Russian black money being  laundered. Great for the economy in the short term but a disaster in the making. Drug gangs bringing the stuff in for Europe from Africa is now a serious out of control problem. I believe Malta has the same problem with golden visas . Maybe Lizzie knows?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 19:24:14

Ironically, Spain has what  istermed a golden visa. Have lots of dosh? Not of EU origin? No problem . The Costas are booming with Russian black money being  laundered. Great for the economy in the short term but a disaster in the making. Drug gangs bringing the stuff in for Europe from Africa is now a serious out of control problem. I believe Malta has the same problem with golden visas . Maybe Lizzie knows?

Presumably, Golden Spanish Passports are available as well if you have the right contacts and enough money.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 28 November 2018, 19:49:26
Yes. Of course. Do you want one? pm. for rates ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 28 November 2018, 21:23:50
Yes. Of course. Do you want one? pm. for rates ;D

I'm guessing that prices will go up after 29th March as we'll all be desperate to avoid the plague of locusts and the four horsemen!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 28 November 2018, 21:57:01
Having said that, Iranians are apparently paying £40 grand each to get smuggled into this insignificant little island !   :o ;D

Meanwhile, project fear has gone into warp drive today.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 28 November 2018, 22:53:28
I have now reached the point where I do not care whether we are in or out ,I am going to carry on as I always have enjoying what SWMBO & I have enjoying life to the full , the whole fiasco has made this country look like complete idiots scaremongering about finances & whatever else they think will put the wind up the average man/woman in the street, have been through worse & survived certainly not going to worry about this nonsense.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 November 2018, 23:20:47
Having said that, Iranians are apparently paying £40 grand each to get smuggled into this insignificant little island !   :o ;D

Meanwhile, project fear has gone into warp drive today.  ::)
That'll pay for a nice boat... In Marbella :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 29 November 2018, 13:41:18

Ironically, Spain has what  istermed a golden visa. Have lots of dosh? Not of EU origin? No problem . The Costas are booming with Russian black money being  laundered. Great for the economy in the short term but a disaster in the making. Drug gangs bringing the stuff in for Europe from Africa is now a serious out of control problem. I believe Malta has the same problem with golden visas . Maybe Lizzie knows?

What apparently is happening is that Malta is agreeing for migrants to land on the Island on the proviso that the EU countries will take them all on.

This lovely Island is just 8 miles x 16 miles, so to take in any significant number of migrants would cause all kind of problems putting a strain on the services and housing that, make our difficulties over migrants seen almost insignificant.

The dilemma for Malta is though that they need 30,000 foreign workers over the next 4 years to maintain it's 6% growth rate, and it has received 1.5 billion Euros from the EU in the last 13 years in development funds and private investment. 10,000 jobs are being created in Malta every year, bucking the high unemployment trend of Southern Europe.  But where all the migrant workforce is going to live, without completely covering the Island in housing (hotels are now everywhere!) I do not know. :o
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 29 November 2018, 18:04:02
So Theresa May wants a TV debate with Jeremy Corbyn about her shitty deal, but he'd rather watch I'm A Celebrity....  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 29 November 2018, 18:19:58
So Theresa May wants a TV debate with Jeremy Corbyn about her shitty deal, but he'd rather watch I'm A Celebrity....  ;D
.


I'd rather walk round town with broken glass in my shoes, than watch any of that shite.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 29 November 2018, 18:40:17
make them do a bushtucker trial. I would pay good money to watch her eat a kangaroo penis while he was eating a ostrich anus.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 29 November 2018, 19:13:06

Ironically, Spain has what  istermed a golden visa. Have lots of dosh? Not of EU origin? No problem . The Costas are booming with Russian black money being  laundered. Great for the economy in the short term but a disaster in the making. Drug gangs bringing the stuff in for Europe from Africa is now a serious out of control problem. I believe Malta has the same problem with golden visas . Maybe Lizzie knows?

What apparently is happening is that Malta is agreeing for migrants to land on the Island on the proviso that the EU countries will take them all on.

This lovely Island is just 8 miles x 16 miles, so to take in any significant number of migrants would cause all kind of problems putting a strain on the services and housing that, make our difficulties over migrants seen almost insignificant.

The dilemma for Malta is though that they need 30,000 foreign workers over the next 4 years to maintain it's 6% growth rate, and it has received 1.5 billion Euros from the EU in the last 13 years in development funds and private investment. 10,000 jobs are being created in Malta every year, bucking the high unemployment trend of Southern Europe.  But where all the migrant workforce is going to live, without completely covering the Island in housing (hotels are now everywhere!) I do not know. :o

Golden visa ina nutshell is because youhave loads of dosh, youcan buy into the EU where otherwise you would not be able to.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 29 November 2018, 23:33:38
Who would have guessed it? The worst & most incompetent, serial lying, UK PM of many generations (of all time?) Theresa May has a cunning infallible plan to get her Chequers plan through parliament, except she isn't Baldrick! :-[ :-[ :-[ ;D ;D ;D

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/11/29/no-10-s-bungled-brexit-strategy-is-sabotaging-may-s-remainin (http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/11/29/no-10-s-bungled-brexit-strategy-is-sabotaging-may-s-remainin)

We all know what a rabbit caught in headlights looks like, frozen to the spot & struggling & unable to communicate. just like dipstick May today.

(Sir William) Bill Cash (the quiet but very effective assin anti-EU MP) asked her a question at PMQs the other day on the legality of May's EU leave treaty which she has signed but is subservient & incompatible with the UK Withdrawal Act & whether she sought the Attorney General's council & advice before signing it & why that advice must under parliamentary rules be made available to MPs. May was evasive at the PMQs.

Today May was giving evidence to the European Scrutiny Parliamentary committee where coincidently Sir William Cash is chairman of. So he took the time to ask the question again. May knows that if she lies the rules of the house will force her to resign. So more stuttering evasion from May so I think we can take the answer to the question being that either she didn't seek the Attorney General's council & advice or it was unfavourable. Bill Cash on such matters is like a pitbull, his metaphorical teeth are now embedded in his prey, jaw is locked & he isn't letting go until he gets an answer. May's further evasion, just isn't going to wash & the question won't go away. :y :y :y ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 November 2018, 16:26:22
I'm starting to wonder if we will remain in the EU.

TM's deal is unlikely to succeed in parliament leaving 'no deal or perhaps 'no Brexit' as the only options.

If we have a second referendum I don't think 'no deal' would fly.

Just a  thought. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 30 November 2018, 16:30:18
The day the results of the regerendum were announced , I said that the establishment would never allow us to leave. I would have bet good money on it but couldnt find any odds.

Long long way to run yet.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 November 2018, 16:51:49
The day the results of the regerendum were announced , I said that the establishment would never allow us to leave. I would have bet good money on it but couldnt find any odds.

Long long way to run yet.

I'm starting to think that Brexit isn't going to plan...... ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 30 November 2018, 17:01:19
Parliament will reject May's crappy deal and the EU's response will be to grant a 3 month extension of A50 to sort ourselves out.  A 2nd referendum will be held in May/June and the question will be heavily loaded towards Remain.  ::)

Something like:  Remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union and The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse will lay waste to the country, slaughter your children, and turn Netflix off!  :)

There's probably no need to lay waste to the country or slaughter any children, just turning off Netflix should do it, but the Establishment won't take any chances this time.  ::)  ;D

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 November 2018, 17:38:12
Parliament will reject May's crappy deal and the EU's response will be to grant a 3 month extension of A50 to sort ourselves out.  A 2nd referendum will be held in May/June and the question will be heavily loaded towards Remain.  ::)

Something like:  Remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union and The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse will lay waste to the country, slaughter your children, and turn Netflix off!  :)

There's probably no need to lay waste to the country or slaughter any children, just turning off Netflix should do it, but the Establishment won't take any chances this time.  ::)  ;D

Which option do you believe would/will prove most popular?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 30 November 2018, 17:48:13
Parliament will reject May's crappy deal and the EU's response will be to grant a 3 month extension of A50 to sort ourselves out.  A 2nd referendum will be held in May/June and the question will be heavily loaded towards Remain.  ::)

Something like:  Remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union and The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse will lay waste to the country, slaughter your children, and turn Netflix off!  :)

There's probably no need to lay waste to the country or slaughter any children, just turning off Netflix should do it, but the Establishment won't take any chances this time.  ::)  ;D

Which option do you believe would/will prove most popular?


Due to intensive farming methods the land could probably do with being left fallow for a while after being laid waste to, most kids these days seem to be horrible little scrotey brats, and there are alternatives to Netflix....  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 November 2018, 19:51:56
Parliament will reject May's crappy deal and the EU's response will be to grant a 3 month extension of A50 to sort ourselves out.  A 2nd referendum will be held in May/June and the question will be heavily loaded towards Remain.  ::)

Something like:  Remain in the European Union or Leave the European Union and The Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse will lay waste to the country, slaughter your children, and turn Netflix off!  :)

There's probably no need to lay waste to the country or slaughter any children, just turning off Netflix should do it, but the Establishment won't take any chances this time.  ::)  ;D

Which option do you believe would/will prove most popular?


Due to intensive farming methods the land could probably do with being left fallow for a while after being laid waste to, most kids these days seem to be horrible little scrotey brats, and there are alternatives to Netflix....  :)
Surely not...

Sky or Amazon  :o

I'll take Armageddon over funding their world domination. In fact I would probably prefer to join a union ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: BazaJT on 30 November 2018, 22:40:52
I'd go for no deal and take the hit rather than remain and become part of the German empire which is the way the EU are heading.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 01 December 2018, 10:45:57
Interesting that the British mainstream media havn't reported this?  ???

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/wto-says-its-rules-would-not-force-eu-or-uk-to-erect-hard-irish-border-1.3710136

I guess it dosn't fit in with the Establishment's apocalyptic narrative.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 01 December 2018, 12:18:01
I see a minister has resigned over Galileo.

I wonder what the wording of the contract was that allows EU countries to invest in the project (UK share I believe so far 1.4 billion of taxpayers money- £25 for every man, woman and child) and then because they are leaving not be included in the project anymore AND not get their money back! How easily we just roll over when the numbers involved are large and yet if we had been seen off for 1.2 million on say an aircraft deal there would have been a public outcry.

I said right from the outset that getting every penny of our money back (where it is possible) should have been part of our negotiating strategy, even if it meant forcing the sale of assets. We might not necessarily have used it. It would have been interesting getting an ECJ ruling on the subject. The resigning minister pointed out just how ruthless the EU are in negotiations (and I suspect he is a remainer not that it matters).
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 01 December 2018, 12:23:06
(and I suspect he is a remainer not that it matters).
He is.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: dave the builder on 02 December 2018, 20:04:18
https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100 (https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100)
Brexit... Means Brexit  ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 02 December 2018, 20:54:23
Three possible outcomes now.
1. The Tories grasp the nettle, get rid of May and replace her with a Brexiteer who goes back to Brussels and at least attempts to kick some arse.
2. She carries on regardless, loses the vote in the commons, and while they all argue about it, the clock runs out and we leave without a deal - initially at least.
3. The establishment finally win and overturn the referendum result,(while denying they have done it)  thus killing any pretence of democracy in the UK, permanently.

We shall see.  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 02 December 2018, 21:22:31
https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100 (https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100)
Brexit... Means Brexit  ???
Not joining Facebook just to see this...

What does it say?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 02 December 2018, 22:20:17
https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100 (https://www.facebook.com/CultureTrending/videos/2168187863396064/?t=100)
Brexit... Means Brexit  ???
Not joining Facebook just to see this...

What does it say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svwslRDTyzU

 ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 02 December 2018, 22:32:00
Gove doesn't seem like such of a brexiteer to me. ::) ::)Quite the opposite in fact.

Looking for his chance to take the reins, I think.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 02 December 2018, 23:27:46
Yes marvellous politician. He could adapt to lead any party even Christmas or office.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 02 December 2018, 23:35:56
Career before country every time for that little sh1t.  ::)
Hopefully when Treasons deal hits the buffers, so will his career.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 03 December 2018, 05:38:48
https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/01/17/impossible-michael-gove/
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 05:44:09
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Gaffers on 03 December 2018, 09:28:41
3. The establishment finally win and overturn the referendum result,(while denying they have done it)  thus killing any pretence of democracy in the UK, permanently.

I cannot understand why people think that the issue of EU membership will go away if, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen.  This shows ignorance on the part of those who want a second vote on the subject, they seem to think that everyone who wants/wanted out will simply go quietly in to the night?

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 03 December 2018, 10:04:19
The EU and our membership of it (or lack of), will always be like a scab that's continually picked and never heals in this country.  :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 03 December 2018, 11:36:11
The EU and our membership of it (or lack of), will always be like a scab that's continually picked and never heals in this country.  :(

I had a cream prescribed by the doctor and never went anywhere near the skanky mare again.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 03 December 2018, 13:23:12
3. The establishment finally win and overturn the referendum result,(while denying they have done it)  thus killing any pretence of democracy in the UK, permanently.

I cannot understand why people think that the issue of EU membership will go away if, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen.  This shows ignorance on the part of those who want a second vote on the subject, they seem to think that everyone who wants/wanted out will simply go quietly in to the night?

I would assume that they simply don't care. They think that 17.5 million people are either ignorant racists or extremely gullible, and not worth concerning themselves with.
The only thing that matters is staying in their beloved union, as the world will stop turning if we don't.
I was speaking to a Liberal Democrat about it last week. He kept banging on about "a peoples vote". When I offered the opinion that this would cancel out the previous vote and therefore effectively kill off Democracy, he said "we haven't always had democracy, so we could do without it again. Its not the be all and end all you know".
I was lost for words at that point and walked away.  ;D
But that's how obsessed these people can be. Its like religious fervour that cant be reasoned with.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 03 December 2018, 14:03:02
But that's how obsessed these people can be. Its like religious fervour that cant be reasoned with.


I think that illustrates the point as hardened leavers could similarly be so described.



My question to such folk would be what would cause them to stop and take stock? e.g. for a remainer if the UK net contributions to the EU went up by 100%, 500% or if all decisions were made by Brussels (democratically or otherwise )


Boris made a good point today about the leaders debate. It isn't going to be much of a debate with two remainers at the table.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 03 December 2018, 15:24:19
But that's how obsessed these people can be. Its like religious fervour that cant be reasoned with.


I think that illustrates the point as hardened leavers could similarly be so described.



My question to such folk would be what would cause them to stop and take stock? e.g. for a remainer if the UK net contributions to the EU went up by 100%, 500% or if all decisions were made by Brussels (democratically or otherwise )


Boris made a good point today about the leaders debate. It isn't going to be much of a debate with two remainers at the table.

Up to a point maybe, but if the result had been the other way round, Im sure that I and most of the rest of the 48% wouldn't have spent the last two years trying to find ways,(and trying to convince everyone else of them) to ignore the result, overturn it, or come up with some scheme which means we effectively leave, but fools people into believing we are actually staying in.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 03 December 2018, 15:38:11
I don't think a full fat no deal will be 'allowed'

This leaves remaining in the UK with our tails between our legs or a BRINO brexit.

Great choice. :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 03 December 2018, 15:55:15
I don't think a full fat no deal will be 'allowed'

This leaves remaining in the UK with our tails between our legs or a BRINO brexit.

Great choice. :-X

Now you come to mention it I have found myself looking at Australian property sites of late. 

I'm not sure I could cope with all that sunshine though....  :-\               8) ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 03 December 2018, 16:16:47
I don't think a full fat no deal will be 'allowed'

This leaves remaining in the UK with our tails between our legs or a BRINO brexit.

Great choice. :-X

Now you come to mention it I have found myself looking at Australian property sites of late. 

I'm not sure I could cope with all that sunshine though....  :-\               8) ;D

I couldn't cope with SWMBO hitting the ceiling every time she sees a spider. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 16:38:04
She would soon get used to them...  :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 03 December 2018, 16:48:39
I don't think a full fat no deal will be 'allowed'

This leaves remaining in the UK with our tails between our legs or a BRINO brexit.

Great choice. :-X

Now you come to mention it I have found myself looking at Australian property sites of late. 

I'm not sure I could cope with all that sunshine though....  :-\               8) ;D

I couldn't cope with SWMBO hitting the ceiling every time she sees a spider. ;D

........the size of a pony. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 03 December 2018, 17:28:39
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
No.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 17:33:27
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
No.  :)
Just a thought...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 03 December 2018, 17:39:40
Three possible outcomes now.
1. The Tories grasp the nettle, get rid of May and replace her with a Brexiteer who goes back to Brussels and at least attempts to kick some arse.
2. She carries on regardless, loses the vote in the commons, and while they all argue about it, the clock runs out and we leave without a deal - initially at least.
3. The establishment finally win and overturn the referendum result,(while denying they have done it)  thus killing any pretence of democracy in the UK, permanently.

We shall see.  :-\
1) Nobody is going to get a significantly better deal. Ever. Those who think that would be possible overstate our European/Global significance.
2) Not gonna happen.  No viable government would do that with the UK in its current state. The UK is on the edge of a monumental recession, the likes none of us have seen.  Take a look at the High Street if you don't believe that is the case, and John Lewis/Waitrose all looking set to fold next year...   ...and the Internet is not the cause.
3) A worrying possibility that I think undermines everything
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 18:02:27
JLWaitrose isn't Brexit related... They have much bigger internal issues.  :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 03 December 2018, 18:32:11
JLWaitrose isn't Brexit related... They have much bigger internal issues.  :-X
Never said it was ;).  I said the country was on the verge of a massive recession, and JL Partnership was likely to be a victim of it next year.  Most retailers would say we already are in recession...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 03 December 2018, 18:36:09
This monumental recession . Is that just the UK or does it include any European countries?

Plenty of empty shops here in Spain. New businesses pop up regularly, often the same as the one that went under. Funded by the very favourable redundancy payments here. Then they too go under .

My observation of the dead high streets in the UK is they need to reinvent themselves. Empty Shops should be converted into cheap accomodation to allow youngsters onto the housing ladder. Others into entertainment or drop in centres. The Internet is here to stay as is Internet shopping.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 03 December 2018, 18:37:47
This monumental recession . Is that just the UK or does it include any European countries?

Plenty of empty shops here in Spain. New businesses pop up regularly, often the same as the one that went under. Funded by the very favourable redundancy payments here. Then they too go under .

My observation of the dead high streets in the UK is they need to reinvent themselves. Empty Shops should be converted into cheap accomodation to allow youngsters onto the housing ladder. Others into entertainment or drop in centres. The Internet is here to stay as is Internet shopping.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 03 December 2018, 18:58:28
Imo the internet coupled with criminally high business rates, is the cause.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 03 December 2018, 19:00:54
This monumental recession . Is that just the UK or does it include any European countries?

Plenty of empty shops here in Spain. New businesses pop up regularly, often the same as the one that went under. Funded by the very favourable redundancy payments here. Then they too go under .

My observation of the dead high streets in the UK is they need to reinvent themselves. Empty Shops should be converted into cheap accomodation to allow youngsters onto the housing ladder. Others into entertainment or drop in centres. The Internet is here to stay as is Internet shopping.
It appears to be UK rather than Europe or Global.

Although not entirely blameless, the Internet is not the reason - the drop in high street bricks and mortar shop turnover is NOT being taken up by Internet retailers.

I was discussing this with a group of retail owners a few weeks ago, and it does seem to be related partly due to people not having the cash, and partly due to those who do have the cash not having the confidence (it seems nobody can agree if its uncertainty around Brexit or the interest rate rise last year (following the drop immediately following the referendum), or maybe the 2 are so intertwined)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 03 December 2018, 19:03:26
Imo the internet
That is pretty much proved not to be the case, though with so many back bedroom internet businesses, many not paying any VAT and taxes, its impossible to be 100%

coupled with criminally high business rates, is the cause.
Not really, criminally high rents is more of an issue.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 19:37:47
JLWaitrose isn't Brexit related... They have much bigger internal issues.  :-X
Never said it was ;).  I said the country was on the verge of a massive recession, and JL Partnership was likely to be a victim of it next year.  Most retailers would say we already are in recession...
Not recession related either, but one will almost certainly kill it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 03 December 2018, 19:44:31
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
No.  :)
Just a thought...
A daft one.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 December 2018, 21:23:57
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
No.  :)
Just a thought...
A daft one.
More sinister...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 06:34:00
Rochdale... Is that anywhere near Rotherham  :-\
No.  :)
Just a thought...
A daft one.
More sinister...
Do you think the Rochdale Herald has actually got anything to do with Rochdale? ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 04 December 2018, 08:34:11
The tenuous link wasn't the local rag... More an observation of character.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 04 December 2018, 12:13:31
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:30:32
The tenuous link wasn't the local rag... More an observation of character.
Load of bollix, you mean.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:35:17
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Yes, Don. If that scenario was to happen, there would be a sizeable chunk of the population totally washing their hands of politics in general. I've said it on here before, if Brexit is reversed, I will never go near a polling booth again. And woe betide any political door knocker who ventures up my path.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 12:38:53
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.

Yep.....it's not over until it's over.

Civil war anyone? ::)

Can I have first refusal of the General Lee? It has a pretty flag on it's roof. ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:41:31
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 12:44:59
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.


'Shouty nige' is not as vocal as you might imagine.

........as for him becoming PM. No thanks. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:46:13
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.


'Shouty nige' is not as vocal as you might imagine.

........as for him becoming PM. No thanks. ;D
You'd prefer Corbin, no doubt. Or, perhaps, Harold Wilson.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 04 December 2018, 12:46:44
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Yes, Don. If that scenario was to happen, there would be a sizeable chunk of the population totally washing their hands of politics in general. I've said it on here before, if Brexit is reversed, I will never go near a polling booth again. And woe betide any political door knocker who ventures up my path.

That would suit the EU just fine.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:50:17
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Yes, Don. If that scenario was to happen, there would be a sizeable chunk of the population totally washing their hands of politics in general. I've said it on here before, if Brexit is reversed, I will never go near a polling booth again. And woe betide any political door knocker who ventures up my path.

That would suit the EU just fine.
I think I would secretly hope that the UK went even further down the shitter, if that's possible. So I could sit with my horlicks and gloat.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 12:52:05
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.


'Shouty nige' is not as vocal as you might imagine.

........as for him becoming PM. No thanks. ;D
You'd prefer Corbin, no doubt. Or, perhaps, Harold Wilson. ;D

Call me picky but I doubt Harold Wilson will be back at number ten anytime soon. :)

Hmmm.....Corbin or Farage. That would be liking choosing one sexually transmitted disease over another. The same goes for the Victorian ghoul, JRM.

I really don't think that Blighty is in a good place at the moment. :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 12:53:52
How about if the country is run by a Hal 9000 computer? :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 12:55:49
How about if the country is run by a Hal 9000 computer? :)
Hal 9000 is obsolete. You could fit it into a matchbox nowadays. I still find it surprising that a Sony PlayStation has more computing power than the spaceship that took man to the moon.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 12:59:34
Ah.....but did we really reach the moon in 1969?

Flat - Earthers  say it was all faked. ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 13:01:48
Six times it was faked from 1969 to 1972.

The Russians and Chinese must have been thick not to notice the deceptions. ::) 8)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 13:09:45
If the government loses this vote ref release of the full legal advice, and is found in contempt of parliament, and still refuses to release the full document, then this will set the stage for future governments to decide policy in secret, according to some 'secret' advice given by the Attorney General.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 04 December 2018, 14:16:09
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Yes, Don. If that scenario was to happen, there would be a sizeable chunk of the population totally washing their hands of politics in general. I've said it on here before, if Brexit is reversed, I will never go near a polling booth again. And woe betide any political door knocker who ventures up my path.

If the establishment succeed in their quest(and it is hanging in the balance at the moment), I intend to then live the rest of my life by my own moral code, with no regard whatsoever for laws, rules, regulations, or anything else imposed upon us by our masters.
Don, I fully agree regarding the BBC and SKY. They are beneath contempt.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 04 December 2018, 14:24:31
The eu says that UK can legally cancell Brexit .
Well what a surprise ,with perfect timing too , just before the debate and vote in the HOC.
The female SKY presenter was almost orgasmic with delight this am announcing this blatently convenient third  option .
In all my life I've never seen such a contrived and desperate programme of guile ,fear tactics , misinformation and lies , duplicity and gross manipulation of any fact , correct or otherwise , by a minority of people utterly determined to get their own way irrespective of others .
Sky and BBC should be pilloried for their incessant biased and increasingly frantic reportage of any doom laden fact spewed out by even the most unknown persons or group.
Every eager and willing remoaner interviewed is never interrupted between questions and the ambience is jolly and gay ........whereas throw a Brexiteer in there and the studio becomes the Colloseum of Rome ,the interviewer a starving lion with the Emperor directing.

With great disappointment , and disgust ,I think I can see the way this is going and frankly if we do see an engineered reversal of the one and only peoples vote then opps them .
Any allegiance I have will be to myself in the future.
Yes, Don. If that scenario was to happen, there would be a sizeable chunk of the population totally washing their hands of politics in general. I've said it on here before, if Brexit is reversed, I will never go near a polling booth again. And woe betide any political door knocker who ventures up my path.

That would suit the EU just fine.

Yep , you're probably right but if it is reversed and we do remain we're oppsed for ever anyway , there will be no , none , ever any second chance of leaving as Albs so elequently put it "it'll be like Hotel California ".

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/008/913/sopranos.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 04 December 2018, 16:09:32
Not entirely sure what a civil war would achieve, but if we can't leave the EU, the perhaps leaving the country would bring the same personal result...

If all the leavers emigrated, then the UK economy would shit itself overnight. The remainders could then wallow in their steadfast stupidity.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 16:59:59
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.
Yeah, then the EU negotiators would quake, and then suddenly say we can leave with no penalties, have access to their markets for free, and wipe out our national debt.

And back in reality....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 17:03:10
If all the leavers emigrated, then the UK economy would shit itself overnight. The remainders could then wallow in their steadfast stupidity.
And vice versa ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:04:18
The government has just been found, by the house, to be in contempt of parliament, and will now have to release the full legal advice given by the Attorney General. Government defeated on both motions this afternoon. Things are getting interesting  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:05:03
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.
Yeah, then the EU negotiators would quake, and then suddenly say we can leave with no penalties, have access to their markets for free, and wipe out our national debt.

And back in reality....
I was actually joking. Did I need an emoji?  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 17:06:46
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.
Yeah, then the EU negotiators would quake, and then suddenly say we can leave with no penalties, have access to their markets for free, and wipe out our national debt.

And back in reality....
I was actually joking. Did I need an emoji?  ::)
Nope, that was to amuse the Farage worshippers... ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:18:11
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 17:20:05
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.
Yeah, then the EU negotiators would quake, and then suddenly say we can leave with no penalties, have access to their markets for free, and wipe out our national debt.

And back in reality....
I was actually joking. Did I need an emoji?  ::)
Nope, that was to amuse the Farage worshippers... ;)

Now that is a sad affliction. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 17:36:15
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

I very much doubt that will fly.

The honourable member for Dickensian England couldn't find 48 like-minded individuals to challenge Theresa. :)

Remaining in the EU after a second vote is gathering pace.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:39:45
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

I very much doubt that will fly.

The honourable member for Dickensian England couldn't find 48 like-minded individuals to challenge Theresa. :)

Remaining in the EU after a second vote is gathering pace.
A sizeable part of the population will be totally disaffected. That spells doom for the Tories for a long time to come. The populist vote that has grown in mainland Europe hasn't reached these shores.....yet.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 17:42:51
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

I very much doubt that will fly.

The honourable member for Dickensian England couldn't find 48 like-minded individuals to challenge Theresa. :)

Remaining in the EU after a second vote is gathering pace.
A sizeable part of the population will be totally disaffected. That spells doom for the Tories for a long time to come. The populist vote that has grown in mainland Europe hasn't reached these shores.....yet.

I agree.

We ran out of good outward looking options yonks ago. All we can do now is try and pick the least worst option. :-\

Total cluster f*uck.

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 17:43:05
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

I very much doubt that will fly.

The honourable member for Dickensian England couldn't find 48 like-minded individuals to challenge Theresa. :)

Remaining in the EU after a second vote is gathering pace.
A sizeable part of the population will be totally disaffected. That spells doom for the Tories for a long time to come. The populist vote that has grown in mainland Europe hasn't reached these shores.....yet.

I agree.

We ran out of good outward looking options yonks ago. All we can do now is try and pick the least worst option. :-\

Total cluster f*uck.

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:44:02
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 17:49:29
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 17:51:35
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 18:03:28
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.
SMF Database Connection Error?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 04 December 2018, 18:10:01
Yup... Followed by a potential repeat post...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 18:10:06
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.
SMF Database Connection Error?
That's the fella  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 18:20:33
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.


When you say server do you mean Mrs Opti? :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 18:23:14
Hmmm, that's a bummer.  I suspect the storage is a shade slow to sync - the database is currently on SAS spinning disks following a controller/disk crash on the SATA SSDs on one of the servers.  I wanted to gain a bit of confidence in it before moving back onto the SSDs...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 18:25:58
Does it always post the message when the error occurs?

I suspect its inserting the message in the database, but when it goes to read to display the post, the record is still locked on one of the storage units (there are 2, and they are in a sync'd active-active config) that it reads from... 


Annoyingly, its not logging the errors :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 04 December 2018, 18:29:34
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.

He resigned from UKIP today.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 18:30:28
I post a reply, get the message, go back to the previous page and try to post again, page is unreactive. I go to home page and, although the post is not shown as the last post in that sub forum, it is actually there if you go in.
Hope that makes some sort of sense.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 18:31:32
Sorry, Jaime, that Albs fella interrupted.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 18:33:19
I post a reply, get the message, go back to the previous page and try to post again, page is unreactive. I go to home page and, although the post is not shown as the last post in that sub forum, it is actually there if you go in.
Hope that makes some sort of sense.
Yes - I think that matches what I said a couple of posts ago.

Any read or write can happen on either of the 2 storage units, and I suspect a record is still being left locked until both units have sync'd the write.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 04 December 2018, 18:34:05
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.

He resigned from UKIP today.
Reality dawned ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 04 December 2018, 18:37:25
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

That's interesting in that I too have found my attitude hardening over the last couple of weeks as the frenzied losers seek ever more volatile ways to persuade us that there is only one path ......
I now believe that May , being a remainer but having one eye on what history will make of her tenure , has adopted a policy of steadfastly telling the people that they will get what they democratically voted for but deliberatley making the deal  so unpalatable that blame can fall on others for it's failure and demise.
Politics is a dirty business .
There will be many a floating voter who will have withered and reassesed their decision more than likely down to the barrage of doom and damnation foisted upon us from the losing side but there will still be many , many MILLIONS of intelligent ,educated ,rational  and proud people who will see that they had their democratic right stolen from them by a cabal of  egotistical  liars with no real belief in their ,or the country they live in , ability
To suggest and maintain the belief that Britain will somehow die and decompose without the eu is , bizzare .  I notice that the significant trade that the eu does with Britain is never mentioned in any of the biased news or press reports creating the illusion that we are irrelevent to them . How convenient .
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 18:46:15
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

That's interesting in that I too have found my attitude hardening over the last couple of weeks as the frenzied losers seek ever more volatile ways to persuade us that there is only one path ......
I now believe that May , being a remainer but having one eye on what history will make of her tenure , has adopted a policy of steadfastly telling the people that they will get what they democratically voted for but deliberatley making the deal  so unpalatable that blame can fall on others for it's failure and demise.
Politics is a dirty business .
There will be many a floating voter who will have withered and reassesed their decision more than likely down to the barrage of doom and damnation foisted upon us from the losing side but there will still be many , many MILLIONS of intelligent ,educated ,rational  and proud people who will see that they had their democratic right stolen from them by a cabal of  egotistical  liars with no real belief in their ,or the country they live in , ability
To suggest and maintain the belief that Britain will somehow die and decompose without the eu is , bizzare .  I notice that the significant trade that the eu does with Britain is never mentioned in any of the biased news or press reports creating the illusion that we are irrelevent to them . How convenient .
Never mind, Don, you'll be rioting in your yellow vest one day soon.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 04 December 2018, 18:47:55
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.

He resigned from UKIP today.
Reality dawned ;D

I havn't seen this in the news, but I expect it is over UKIP's leader Gerard Batten appointing Tommy Robinson as an adviser.  ;)

If it's anything to do with Brexit, I'll run up and down my street with my underpants on my head, shouting "Remain, remain, for gods sake remain!"   :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 04 December 2018, 18:51:10
Where's Nigel Farage these days? I think he would make a fine prime minister.

He resigned from UKIP today.
Reality dawned ;D

No, the current moronic leader has taken Tommy Robinson into the party and turned it into an anti Islamic party, with apparently little interest in EU / Brexit matters.
Farage was UKIP,and it died when he stood down as leader. He had achieved his objective though by winning the referendum.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 04 December 2018, 18:51:25
Ukip are a spent force .
Ukip was Farage and now it is no more but it is great ammunition for the losers.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 04 December 2018, 18:56:24
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

That's interesting in that I too have found my attitude hardening over the last couple of weeks as the frenzied losers seek ever more volatile ways to persuade us that there is only one path ......
I now believe that May , being a remainer but having one eye on what history will make of her tenure , has adopted a policy of steadfastly telling the people that they will get what they democratically voted for but deliberatley making the deal  so unpalatable that blame can fall on others for it's failure and demise.
Politics is a dirty business .
There will be many a floating voter who will have withered and reassesed their decision more than likely down to the barrage of doom and damnation foisted upon us from the losing side but there will still be many , many MILLIONS of intelligent ,educated ,rational  and proud people who will see that they had their democratic right stolen from them by a cabal of  egotistical  liars with no real belief in their ,or the country they live in , ability
To suggest and maintain the belief that Britain will somehow die and decompose without the eu is , bizzare .  I notice that the significant trade that the eu does with Britain is never mentioned in any of the biased news or press reports creating the illusion that we are irrelevent to them . How convenient .
Never mind, Don, you'll be rioting in your yellow vest one day soon.  ;D

Av got a hat too.
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EGM493/aggressive-workman-in-hardhat-isolated-on-white-EGM493.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 04 December 2018, 18:57:31
I emailed my MP a few days ago.
"Dear Mr. Cleverly, our PM Treasonous May has asked voters to contact their MP,s to give their views on her deal...….etc etc.."  ;D
He replied today telling me why he is backing her.
I replied "A classic case of career before country".
I don't expect to hear from him again, and I imagine my recent invite to his home for mulled wine and mince pies will be cancelled.
Couldn't give a toss, he can shove them up his arris.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 04 December 2018, 19:01:37
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

That's interesting in that I too have found my attitude hardening over the last couple of weeks as the frenzied losers seek ever more volatile ways to persuade us that there is only one path ......
I now believe that May , being a remainer but having one eye on what history will make of her tenure , has adopted a policy of steadfastly telling the people that they will get what they democratically voted for but deliberatley making the deal  so unpalatable that blame can fall on others for it's failure and demise.
Politics is a dirty business .
There will be many a floating voter who will have withered and reassesed their decision more than likely down to the barrage of doom and damnation foisted upon us from the losing side but there will still be many , many MILLIONS of intelligent ,educated ,rational  and proud people who will see that they had their democratic right stolen from them by a cabal of  egotistical  liars with no real belief in their ,or the country they live in , ability
To suggest and maintain the belief that Britain will somehow die and decompose without the eu is , bizzare .  I notice that the significant trade that the eu does with Britain is never mentioned in any of the biased news or press reports creating the illusion that we are irrelevent to them . How convenient .
Never mind, Don, you'll be rioting in your yellow vest one day soon.  ;D

Av got a hat too.
[img]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EGM493/aggressive-workman-in-hardhat-isolated-on-white-EGM493.jpg[/i
Glad I've had my tea already  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 04 December 2018, 19:05:39
Teresa May has totally misjudged the mood of the people who voted to leave. By her fannying around with the EU negotiators and her condescending attitude to the British public, treating them like idiots, she has engendered a mood of resentful attrition. I, personally, am not open to anything other than a no deal now, not a position I was in a few weeks ago. I'm sick of the dirty bastards telling me what I really wanted when I voted leave.

We will fight them on the beaches...........

That's interesting in that I too have found my attitude hardening over the last couple of weeks as the frenzied losers seek ever more volatile ways to persuade us that there is only one path ......
I now believe that May , being a remainer but having one eye on what history will make of her tenure , has adopted a policy of steadfastly telling the people that they will get what they democratically voted for but deliberatley making the deal  so unpalatable that blame can fall on others for it's failure and demise.
Politics is a dirty business .
There will be many a floating voter who will have withered and reassesed their decision more than likely down to the barrage of doom and damnation foisted upon us from the losing side but there will still be many , many MILLIONS of intelligent ,educated ,rational  and proud people who will see that they had their democratic right stolen from them by a cabal of  egotistical  liars with no real belief in their ,or the country they live in , ability
To suggest and maintain the belief that Britain will somehow die and decompose without the eu is , bizzare .  I notice that the significant trade that the eu does with Britain is never mentioned in any of the biased news or press reports creating the illusion that we are irrelevent to them . How convenient .
Never mind, Don, you'll be rioting in your yellow vest one day soon.  ;D

Av got a hat too.
[img]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/EGM493/aggressive-workman-in-hardhat-isolated-on-white-EGM493.jpg[/i
Glad I've had my tea already  ;D

In refined circles we have breakfast lunch and dinner.

Tea is what the common people have in Barnsley. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 05 December 2018, 13:05:54
Well, she has been caught out by the publishing of the legal advice. No wonder she fought so hard against it being published.
It says that her deal may necessitate customs checks between GB and Northern Ireland.
This creates a border down the Irish sea, and she has promised time and time again that she would never allow this to happen.
Varadkar, aided and abetted by Brussels, has used this process to try and pry Northern Ireland away from the UK, and she has caved in to it and hoped no-one would find out.  >:(
She is utterly unfit to hold high office or any other kind of office. She must go asap.
Hopefully, when she loses the commons vote next week, the Tory party will then put her out of her misery, and I will take great pleasure in voting against her if she has the audacity to stand as leader again. :)
If they don't, I will send my membership card back, tell them where to shove it, and ask for a refund.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 05 December 2018, 15:11:42
There was some good stuff on Jeremy Vine today.  ::)

First off a detailed discussion and 'explaination' of what the ' Norway option' entails. If there was a dissenting opinion, then it must have been while I farted so missed it.  :-\

Later he had politicians from the Green party, SNP, Limp Dems, Plaid Cymru, Sinn Fein and DUP.  The lady from the DUP was a lone voice insisting that the decision of the 2016 referendum should be carried out.  :y  The others all called for another vote.  ::)

What propaganda and it's clear that the BBC has abandoned even it's thin veneer of impartiality!  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 05 December 2018, 16:16:15
What propaganda and it's clear that the BBC has abandoned even it's thin veneer of impartiality!  >:(

Its funny, whoever you ask (no matter where they sit on the political or Leave/Remain spectrum) always seems to think that the BBC is a shill for the opposing party/viewpoint.

For example, to my eye/ear there are plenty of pieces on cost of living rises, reduced consumer confidence etc etc and the brexit uncertainty never gets much billing when that's talked about. Or on Question Time, a voice suggesting anything other than a full blown immediate EU exit ("let's just get on and leave" etc) gets shouted down.

Your view, and that of a number of members on here is clearly quite the reverse, and that the whole thing is a Left-wing, pro-remain mouthpiece.

Consequently, I've come to the conclusion that if everyone thinks they're going into bat for the opposition, they must actually be doing a fairly balanced job  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Gaffers on 05 December 2018, 16:28:03
That's far too sensible a deduction for this forum.  Go on, off to the corner with ya!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 05 December 2018, 16:53:07
It might also be that whenever there is a chink in someones armour BBC and Sky jump on it to sensationalise it.  E.g.

Farage on he boat in the Thames
May losing three votes in Parliament
ECJ ruling that Brexit can be abandoned

And so on. The failing is not providing a balanced view and pumping  up the story. So often you switch the news on in the morning and it is a forecast of what might happen.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 05 December 2018, 19:05:56
https://biasedbbc.org/quotes-of-shame/       ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 05 December 2018, 19:25:36
https://biasedbbc.org/quotes-of-shame/       ::)
Hmmm, I suspect I could find hundreds of other links about the BBC being the other way.

Though it matters not which way we think, in their (to quote Tigger) thinly veneered attempt at impartiality, somebody can easily, always accuse of bias.

I think they are pro Brexit (at any cost) based on 2 things, including the rather blatant immigration stories when hints of remaining surface.  The 2nd is confidential.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 05 December 2018, 19:27:03
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.
Let me know if its improved since we've moved onto the secondary database server, after the primary shat it pants
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 05 December 2018, 19:45:08
No need to repeat yourself, I heard you first time.  ;D


Cut me some slack. I'm relatively new to this forum, you know. :)
Did you get a message about the server being busy? I've had it a few times lately.
Let me know if its improved since we've moved onto the secondary database server, after the primary shat it pants
No server busy messages, pages are slow to load now and again, nothing serious. What we need is 150 members all trying to post at once, that would give it a proper workout.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 05 December 2018, 19:49:04
https://biasedbbc.org/quotes-of-shame/       ::)
Hmmm, I suspect I could find hundreds of other links about the BBC being the other way.

Though it matters not which way we think, in their (to quote Tigger) thinly veneered attempt at impartiality, somebody can easily, always accuse of bias.

I think they are pro Brexit (at any cost) based on 2 things, including the rather blatant immigration stories when hints of remaining surface.  The 2nd is confidential.


Type "BBC bias"int oa search engine and see what comes up.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: omegod on 05 December 2018, 20:31:22
The Tory bias on the BBC was crystal clear during the last GE, one standout example for me was Corbyn addressing a 10,000 + crowd and didn't get a sniff of coverage, however the syphilitic witch May was on a loop walking round a bakery fondling Brioche buns whilst warbling strong and stable, it reminds me of the 'dangle berries' spouted on North Korean TV news sometimes   

Not very strong nor stable at the moment though is she  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 05 December 2018, 20:53:18
The BBC is anti Corbyn because they consider him an electoral liability for Labour. They aren't far left extremist Marxists like Corbyn, they are metropolitan liberal elite, champagne socialists. Any journalist who wants to work at the beeb struggles to get through the door if they haven't previously worked for the Guardian.
They have never been and never will be pro Tory.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 05 December 2018, 23:55:14
What you don't see with all these pro-EU organizations is there EU funding BBC £1m+ in grants, UK charities the same. Dominic Grieve went to school in France is a francophile and has been given their highest honour the Légion d'honneur for political services. Daily Fail has gone May's pro-deal where the snake MP Gove's wife in a senior editor there etc., etc. The corrupt establishment looking after their own vested interests at everybody else's expense, as per usual. >:( >:( >:(

The good news for May is where she is successfully campaigning, like she did in the GE & lost a 20 point lead. She is successfully with her pitch to change MPs minds to vote for her. Last week 96 MPs said they would vote it down, to date this week that is up to 103. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 00:22:36
10 years ago it had apparently received 258 million Euros in soft loans and payments from the EU in the previous five years !  :o
https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/34956
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: aaronjb on 06 December 2018, 01:17:44
It might also be that whenever there is a chink in someones armour BBC and Sky jump on it to sensationalise it.  E.g.

I don't think you're allowed to use that word on the BBC. You better slope off somewhere in case someone sees it. :-X ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Kevin Wood on 06 December 2018, 09:05:51
It might also be that whenever there is a chink in someones armour BBC and Sky jump on it to sensationalise it.  E.g.

I don't think you're allowed to use that word on the BBC. You better slope off somewhere in case someone sees it. :-X ;D

<sharp intake of breath>
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 09:26:08
It gets more farcical. The basis of the whole thing has been to prevent a hard border on Ireland and to preserve and protect the Belfast/ good Friday agreement at all costs.
However it turns out that the deal is fundamentally in breach of that agreement, as the most important fundamental principle of the Belfast agreement is that the status of Northern Ireland can never be changed without the consent of its people.
The backstop arrangements in the deal do exactly that. You couldnt make this stuff up. Its incompetence of staggering magnitude, as someone used to say. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 06 December 2018, 10:02:36
That's like Bill Cash MP point that May's deal is incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement which sets the Brexit legal framework. May's reply is that the Withdrawal Agreement will have to be amended afterwards, which is surely arse about face where the deal must fit what MPs have agreed as the treaty's constraints.

Where May is determined with her unnamed establishment grey cardinals to try to keep us locked in the EU at all costs, continually insults our intelligence with her delusional serial lying where she is clearly uncomfortable and struggles even to stutter her lying words out.

It is time this useless waste of good oxygen PM, serial failure minister and poor MP was put out to pasture by MPs and at the next GE by the electorate. If they don't then most Tory MPs will be looking for a new job in 2022 and they will have set a good example by ignoring their GE sheet of lies (manifesto) which won't be lost on Corbyn if he gains power. :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 06 December 2018, 10:15:51
BBC Moscow correspondent: We just translate the Russian propaganda we are given verbatim as that way we don't get into trouble with the RU government and given a hard time (which can include being roughed up as a 'street crime') or made persona non-grata. What about the Ukrainian side? Well we don't have a BBC correspondent in Kyiv, so we can't give one!

Then you see MPs quoting Russian active measures on Ukraine where they have seen or heard it on the BBC. These day's I'm in the habit of picking people up and correcting them of this.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 12:20:33
It gets more farcical. The basis of the whole thing has been to prevent a hard border on Ireland and to preserve and protect the Belfast/ good Friday agreement at all costs.
However it turns out that the deal is fundamentally in breach of that agreement, as the most important fundamental principle of the Belfast agreement is that the status of Northern Ireland can never be changed without the consent of its people.
The backstop arrangements in the deal do exactly that. You couldnt make this stuff up. Its incompetence of staggering magnitude, as someone used to say. ;D
Me, Albs, I used to say that....and still do.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 06 December 2018, 12:24:26
The 'top secret' full legal advice from the Attorney General can be read here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-eu-publication-of-legal-advice (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/exiting-the-eu-publication-of-legal-advice)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2018, 12:36:02
Curious to understand how the UK can leave an UK wide customs union ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 12:40:18
It gets more farcical. The basis of the whole thing has been to prevent a hard border on Ireland and to preserve and protect the Belfast/ good Friday agreement at all costs.
However it turns out that the deal is fundamentally in breach of that agreement, as the most important fundamental principle of the Belfast agreement is that the status of Northern Ireland can never be changed without the consent of its people.
The backstop arrangements in the deal do exactly that. You couldnt make this stuff up. Its incompetence of staggering magnitude, as someone used to say. ;D
Me, Albs, I used to say that....and still do.  ;D

Its worse than incompetent. I cant see how it can be lawful. The Belfast agreement was signed into UK, Irish, and I believe EU law and this proposed deal is in clear breach of it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 13:05:20
We could die before this is sorted  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 13:06:32
Speak for yourself Grandad.  :P ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 06 December 2018, 13:17:23
We could die before this is sorted  ;D
The way my man flu is going, you may well be right. :'(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 13:19:33
We could die before this is sorted  ;D
The way my man flu is going, you may well be right. :'(
Had me free pensioner jab.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 06 December 2018, 13:23:06
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\

Sadly, dear old JRM and his small band of 'hard brexiteers' seem unable to grasp that the days of British imperialism are long gone. :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 13:24:25
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\
Mr Rog knows all about flicking a lambs tail to one side.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 06 December 2018, 13:26:45
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\
Mr Rog knows all about flicking a lambs tail to one side.  :)

Exactly what are you suggesting?...... ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 13:29:10
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\
Mr Rog knows all about flicking a lambs tail to one side.  :)

Exactly what are you suggesting?...... ;D
Should be a law against it. At least wait until they've grown up.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 06 December 2018, 17:34:15
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\

Sadly, dear old JRM and his small band of 'hard brexiteers' seem unable to grasp that the days of British imperialism are long gone.
:-X

That Opti is what I have been saying all along. :y :y

Even dear Winston Churchill recognised the importance for future peace and security in a united states of Europe which would include Britain as a leading force in it's administration, which obviously General Charles de Gaulle hated the thought of and kept us out! :D ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 18:01:54
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 06 December 2018, 18:08:57
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

The devil or the deep blue sea.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 18:16:16
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.
Naval gazing.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 18:18:26
T wat.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 06 December 2018, 19:07:03
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

There has been much discussion over the decades about what Churchill meant following his Zurich speech in 1947 with the threat from the Soviet Union very much in his mind:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

However, we must recognise that Churchill, a proud product of British Imperialism, knew the time of the British Empire was over, no matter how he hated the idea of that.  The country was bankrupt and GB was now totally reliant on the new super power, the USA.  He knew Britain could not afford to fight another war, and there was no desire left in the British people to do so.  To gain strength for Britain and the rest of Europe that had been fought so hard for at a tremendous price, and remembering the mistakes made after WW1, a united states of Europe, with joint ways of going forward in peace, albeit knowing the USSR was a big threat to that wish, made every sense.  But, Churchill being a good politician of his time knew the general public had to be let down gentle to acknowledge the new place in the World that GB now occupied, which would of course be starkly realised later in 1956 with The Suez Crisis. So he held back from stating clearly that final statement that Britain would be part of any USE.

No, what Churchill was considering in 1947 was a United States of Europe that would include Britain in the driving seat. ;)
 
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 06 December 2018, 19:42:06
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\

Sadly, dear old JRM and his small band of 'hard brexiteers' seem unable to grasp that the days of British imperialism are long gone.
:-X

That Opti is what I have been saying all along. :y :y

Even dear Winston Churchill recognised the importance for future peace and security in a united states of Europe which would include Britain as a leading force in it's administration, which obviously General Charles de Gaulle hated the thought of and kept us out! :D ;)

What on earth has "imperialism " got to do with seeking to cut ties with the eu and be sovereign again .
We want to have control of our own country again not invade the sub continent .
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 20:29:37
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

There has been much discussion over the decades about what Churchill meant following his Zurich speech in 1947 with the threat from the Soviet Union very much in his mind:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

However, we must recognise that Churchill, a proud product of British Imperialism, knew the time of the British Empire was over, no matter how he hated the idea of that.  The country was bankrupt and GB was now totally reliant on the new super power, the USA.  He knew Britain could not afford to fight another war, and there was no desire left in the British people to do so.  To gain strength for Britain and the rest of Europe that had been fought so hard for at a tremendous price, and remembering the mistakes made after WW1, a united states of Europe, with joint ways of going forward in peace, albeit knowing the USSR was a big threat to that wish, made every sense.  But, Churchill being a good politician of his time knew the general public had to be let down gentle to acknowledge the new place in the World that GB now occupied, which would of course be starkly realised later in 1956 with The Suez Crisis. So he held back from stating clearly that final statement that Britain would be part of any USE.

No, what Churchill was considering in 1947 was a United States of Europe that would include Britain in the driving seat. ;)

He said in 1944 "We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europeand the open sea, we must always choose the open sea".

In 1953 he said.....

"We are not members of the European defence community, nor do we intend to be merged into a federal European system."

The first step in the recreation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany".

"We must be friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=35335.0

 :)

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 06 December 2018, 20:39:07
We could die before this is sorted  ;D

It was not supposed to be this complicated.

Brexit was 'supposed' to be done and dusted in two flicks of a lambs tail. ::)

We issue a set of demands to the EU and all 27  drop to their knees in submission.

........however, in the real world. :-\

Sadly, dear old JRM and his small band of 'hard brexiteers' seem unable to grasp that the days of British imperialism are long gone.
:-X

That Opti is what I have been saying all along. :y :y

Even dear Winston Churchill recognised the importance for future peace and security in a united states of Europe which would include Britain as a leading force in it's administration, which obviously General Charles de Gaulle hated the thought of and kept us out! :D ;)

What on earth has "imperialism " got to do with seeking to cut ties with the eu and be sovereign again .
We want to have control of our own country again not invade the sub continent .

I am sure that Opti mentioned "imperialism" as I also had mentioned it in the context of the mind of the Britishers of the past; those who knew Great Britain was a world power, whose might ensured (usually) the country got what it wanted from other countries one way or another and should not be argued with. Other European countries often felt that power from a military point of view!

So, old fashioned British "imperialism" cannot now force 27 other nations to give us what we want.  We may always punch above our weight, but nowadays in 2018 we do have to use diplomacy to fully negotiate with others to achieve as many of our aims as we can.  That is what has happened so far with Brexit, and it seems the majority of our people are not happy about it one way or another from all parties and personal points of view.

That leaves us with the choice of agreeing with what's on offer, renegotiate a better deal, or pull out or stay in. But we, once more, cannot force anyone to do everything we want them to do. We are a great country, but lack the advantages of the past, so now have to face reality and live within the world community not rule it as I really believe some may think we Great Britain still can by purely saying we can!  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 06 December 2018, 20:46:14
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

There has been much discussion over the decades about what Churchill meant following his Zurich speech in 1947 with the threat from the Soviet Union very much in his mind:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

However, we must recognise that Churchill, a proud product of British Imperialism, knew the time of the British Empire was over, no matter how he hated the idea of that.  The country was bankrupt and GB was now totally reliant on the new super power, the USA.  He knew Britain could not afford to fight another war, and there was no desire left in the British people to do so.  To gain strength for Britain and the rest of Europe that had been fought so hard for at a tremendous price, and remembering the mistakes made after WW1, a united states of Europe, with joint ways of going forward in peace, albeit knowing the USSR was a big threat to that wish, made every sense.  But, Churchill being a good politician of his time knew the general public had to be let down gentle to acknowledge the new place in the World that GB now occupied, which would of course be starkly realised later in 1956 with The Suez Crisis. So he held back from stating clearly that final statement that Britain would be part of any USE.

No, what Churchill was considering in 1947 was a United States of Europe that would include Britain in the driving seat. ;)

He said in 1944 "We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europeand the open sea, we must always choose the open sea".

In 1953 he said.....

"We are not members of the European defence community, nor do we intend to be merged into a federal European system."

The first step in the recreation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany".

"We must be friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=35335.0

 :)

But as I said he was a true British politician who had to live in the context of his time, but he knew that in future Britain would need to be part of the bigger picture for the future stability of Europe and the World as a whole. That meant we would join a future European Union once the initial objectives were met between, as you rightly state, France and Germany to stop another war between the two that always developed to include others, which always eventually involved Britain as we were in treaties that meant we politically had little choice.

 Churchill knew unity was the key between democratic states, and as I previously stated he also knew Britain's power had greatly diminished so the future meant we would tread a more European path. ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 21:03:16
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

There has been much discussion over the decades about what Churchill meant following his Zurich speech in 1947 with the threat from the Soviet Union very much in his mind:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

However, we must recognise that Churchill, a proud product of British Imperialism, knew the time of the British Empire was over, no matter how he hated the idea of that.  The country was bankrupt and GB was now totally reliant on the new super power, the USA.  He knew Britain could not afford to fight another war, and there was no desire left in the British people to do so.  To gain strength for Britain and the rest of Europe that had been fought so hard for at a tremendous price, and remembering the mistakes made after WW1, a united states of Europe, with joint ways of going forward in peace, albeit knowing the USSR was a big threat to that wish, made every sense.  But, Churchill being a good politician of his time knew the general public had to be let down gentle to acknowledge the new place in the World that GB now occupied, which would of course be starkly realised later in 1956 with The Suez Crisis. So he held back from stating clearly that final statement that Britain would be part of any USE.

No, what Churchill was considering in 1947 was a United States of Europe that would include Britain in the driving seat. ;)

He said in 1944 "We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europeand the open sea, we must always choose the open sea".

In 1953 he said.....

"We are not members of the European defence community, nor do we intend to be merged into a federal European system."

The first step in the recreation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany".

"We must be friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=35335.0

 :)

But as I said he was a true British politician who had to live in the context of his time, but he knew that in future Britain would need to be part of the bigger picture for the future stability of Europe and the World as a whole. That meant we would join a future European Union once the initial objectives were met between, as you rightly state, France and Germany to stop another war between the two that always developed to include others, which always eventually involved Britain as we were in treaties that meant we politically had little choice.

 Churchill knew unity was the key between democratic states, and as I previously stated he also knew Britain's power had greatly diminished so the future meant we would tread a more European path. ;)
But have you got anything to prove that statement, or is it just your own hypothesis?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2018, 21:09:48
Matters not a jot what was historically said...

What matters now is that the current bag of wet string gets its shit together in order to release us from the clutch of the three unelected monkeys.

Regardless of the details*, that is all that is required of them by the referendum. Failure to do this is not a viable solution and would lead to unprecedented levels of voter apathy or discontentment for which we will all pay dearly.

*Northern Ireland has been a total cluster opps for about 500 years... Walking away with a border down the Irish Sea is no worse than pardoning the IRA.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 21:35:39
If you had any experience of the place you wouldn't say that. Besides she said recently of the possibility of a border down the Irish sea "I could never allow that to happen, and nor could any British prime minister". A few weeks later, she has done it.
Varadkar has played her like a cheap fiddle. She is the worst waste of skin I have ever seen in a British politician, and that's saying something.
When B. Liar appeased the IRA, he gave them everything they wanted apart from the one thing they really wanted. Even he knew he couldn't get away with that.This moron of a PM has just given them half of it, and made it much easier to get all of it.
When she loses the vote on Tuesday the Tories need to jettison her by lunchtime Wednesday. If they don't, they don't deserve to carry on as a Govt.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 21:36:27
Through all of these heated discussions, I do hope that the people of Europe don't get the impression that we hate/dislike them, although I'm pretty sure that's the message we are sending. Personally, I like the different languages and cultures that make up Europe. From the various cuisines and languages, to the oddities and customs.
It's the EU as an organisation I can't stand. Their self-centred, self-opinionated, self-importance is only the soft shell of a very dangerous group of fanatics. The common market, as it was called, was actually a very good idea. But, over the years, layer upon layer of restrictive practices have been added, that were, almost by stealth, turned into laws that bound every country, every citizen, into the following the will of a few unelected bureaucrats who seek to build a legacy for themselves.
I would gleefully shoot Junker, Tusk and company, and I mean that.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 21:40:14
Apart from the French obviously.  :)
I love the Italians, their language culture style etc. etc. Couldn't trust them as far as you could throw them, but even if they were robbing you they would do it with style.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 06 December 2018, 21:44:44
I should add that, if we have to retain ties with Europe, and I believe we have to if we are to prosper, that the one thing I desperately want to end is the UK having to adhere to the judgments issued by the ECJ. We are part of Europe but not Europeans. We see things very differently and we should be able to set our own laws, with our Supreme Court as the final, and highest, court in this land.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 06 December 2018, 21:46:37

What on earth has "imperialism " got to do with seeking to cut ties with the eu and be sovereign again .
We want to have control of our own country again not invade the sub continent.

Exactly.  ::)

The only people that I have heard talking about the Empire and Imperialism in the BREXIT context, are snidey remainder folk.  :P   I have never heard anyone who supports our withdrawal from the EU utter a word about our imperial past.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 06 December 2018, 21:49:57
Through all of these heated discussions, I do hope that the people of Europe don't get the impression that we hate/dislike them, although I'm pretty sure that's the message we are sending. Personally, I like the different languages and cultures that make up Europe. From the various cuisines and languages, to the oddities and customs.
It's the EU as an organisation I can't stand. Their self-centred, self-opinionated, self-importance is only the soft shell of a very dangerous group of fanatics. The common market, as it was called, was actually a very good idea. But, over the years, layer upon layer of restrictive practices have been added, that were, almost by stealth, turned into laws that bound every country, every citizen, into the following the will of a few unelected bureaucrats who seek to build a legacy for themselves.
I would gleefully shoot Junker, Tusk and company, and I mean that.

The Europeans I've spoken to about it, through my old job (Dutch, Swedish, German, Swiss and Italians - it was understandably a common topic of conversation) don't see it as any kind of reflection of our views on them. They all to a greater or lesser degree shared many of the frustrations with the EU that drove the leave vote.

However their view, almost exclusively was that it's an incredibly self-harming way to express and resolve those frustrations. That said, you can't really deduce much from a small sample size of exclusively middle aged, middle class people.

I did find talking to the Swiss guys particularly interesting, as an "impartial" third party to the whole thing.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2018, 21:58:48
If you had any experience of the place you wouldn't say that. Besides she said recently of the possibility of a border down the Irish sea "I could never allow that to happen, and nor could any British prime minister". A few weeks later, she has done it.
Varadkar has played her like a cheap fiddle. She is the worst waste of skin I have ever seen in a British politician, and that's saying something.
When B. Liar appeased the IRA, he gave them everything they wanted apart from the one thing they really wanted. Even he knew he couldn't get away with that.This moron of a PM has just given them half of it, and made it much easier to get all of it.
When she loses the vote on Tuesday the Tories need to jettison her by lunchtime Wednesday. If they don't, they don't deserve to carry on as a Govt.
As long as whatever happens is decisive...

Not holding my breath though... party politics needs to be put on a back burner until this is done and dusted, (actually this should have happened the day after the referendum). It's about time our elected representatives step up to the plate...
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 06 December 2018, 22:00:17
The Swiss are about as impartial as a hall of mirrors at the fair ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 06 December 2018, 22:14:19
On holiday in Thailand a couple of years ago I was in a bar chatting to some people, Australians iirc, and there were some German blokes stood drinking at the bar.  I noticed that they kept looking over at me and thought "Uh Oh"...  :-\

Anyway the others left and I was finishing my beer and was about to leave when one of the German guys came over and the conversation went something like this.

German: Are you English?
Sir Tig: Er... yes..  I am.
German:  Zen I vould like to shake you by ze hand!  You are very clever people you British!
Sir Tig: Er Thanks  Why do you think that?
German: Ze European Union is destroying Europe and you British are doing ze right thing.  Zay vill make it very difficult for you, but you must see zis thing through.  If you do not ve are all lost!

With that he about turned, went back to his mates and as I bemusedly got up to go they all raised their glasses to me. "Prost!"  :y

The establishment and re-mainstream media would have us believe that the EU is universally popular on the continent.  It's not.  ;)

PS: Apologies to Rolf and any other Deutschlanders for the bad accent, just trying to set the scene!  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 22:18:19
There are anti EU movements in all thw other 27 member states, and most of them are growing.  :y
We are the first domino to fall.  8)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 06 December 2018, 22:34:54
Through all of these heated discussions, I do hope that the people of Europe don't get the impression that we hate/dislike them, although I'm pretty sure that's the message we are sending. Personally, I like the different languages and cultures that make up Europe. From the various cuisines and languages, to the oddities and customs.
It's the EU as an organisation I can't stand. Their self-centred, self-opinionated, self-importance is only the soft shell of a very dangerous group of fanatics. The common market, as it was called, was actually a very good idea. But, over the years, layer upon layer of restrictive practices have been added, that were, almost by stealth, turned into laws that bound every country, every citizen, into the following the will of a few unelected bureaucrats who seek to build a legacy for themselves.
I would gleefully shoot Junker, Tusk and company, and I mean that.

The Europeans I've spoken to about it, through my old job (Dutch, Swedish, German, Swiss and Italians - it was understandably a common topic of conversation) don't see it as any kind of reflection of our views on them. They all to a greater or lesser degree shared many of the frustrations with the EU that drove the leave vote.

However their view, almost exclusively was that it's an incredibly self-harming way to express and resolve those frustrations. That said, you can't really deduce much from a small sample size of exclusively middle aged, middle class people.

I did find talking to the Swiss guys particularly interesting, as an "impartial" third party to the whole thing.

Well I talk to working class Spaniards, many are well to do having done very well out of EU farming grants. Some are paper millionaires with the land/olive tree equity. They are all for the main part bemused by Britain wanting to leave the EU. You cannot blame them as apart from some blatant inflation when the peseta was dumped for the euro, they have all done well here. When I say wait till Spain is a big contributor rather than a recipient, they just shrug. Some accept there are things wrong with the EU but dont care. Why should they.
Almost all find it amusing that Britain cannot organise leaving. I havent the heart to tell them that those organising the leaving are remainers .
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 22:56:56
And the leader of the party opposing the remainers who are organising leaving is a lifelong leaver who is pretending to be a remainer.
You couldn't make it up.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 06 December 2018, 23:02:26
Walking away with a border down the Irish Sea is no worse than pardoning the IRA.

You clearly do not understand how bad the backstop is to say things like that.  ::)

I haven't read the 535 pages of the Withdrawal Agreement and I'm sure that there is much that is good, but I still cannot believe that she has agreed to this, especially when everybody is agreed that a hard border across Ireland is not necessary.  ::)

To agree to a legally binding international treaty, where there is no right of exit without the other parties agreement is just criminally stupid and I can't think any other free democratic country on the planet that would do it.  We didn't need the release of the legal advice to understand the backstop for what it is. A trap.  >:( 

Because as sure as night follows day, the EU will make heavy demands on us in the FTA talks to come.  They will demand full access to our fishing grounds, the level playing field which will mean full adherence to the EU rulebook, shared sovereignty of Gibraltar with Spain, free movement, contributions to the EU budget, and the whole treaty to be adjudicated by the ECJ. And that's just for starters.  ::)

They will demand control of the sequencing of the 'negotiations' and will not allow talks on the next stage to commence until satisfactory progress has been made on the current stage (Sound familiar?). In the background the clock will be ticking, the Cul de Sac of the backstop will be ever present and our EU jailers will ruthlessly drive us up it, jingling the keys whilst whistling God Save The Queen!  ::)

In short the whole thing is designed to fail, as Theresa May has ensured that whoever is put into bat for Britain cannot walk away.   >:(

So whatever the good bits of the Withdrawal Treaty are eg ensuring citizens rights are protected etc, the bad bit of the backstop is so bad that the whole deal must be abandoned if that bit cannot be scrapped, as it guarantees that the next deal will be even worse.  ;)

Geddit?  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 06 December 2018, 23:05:43
Ah opps, if Davis had had The Dambusters tune as a ringtone we wouldn't be in this shit .....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 23:08:43
Before Varadkar was elected talks were well underway between the uk, EU and Irish Govts. to have a Canada plus type deal, with technology used to police a soft border in Ireland.
As soon as Varadkar was elected he pulled out of these talks and steered the whole thing towards this backstop nonsense we now have.
As I said earlier, it is in breach of their precious Belfast agreement and surely its only a matter of time before some Brexiteer does a Gina Miller and goes to the supreme court over it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 06 December 2018, 23:12:18
And the leader of the party opposing the remainers who are organising leaving is a lifelong leaver who is pretending to be a remainer.
You couldn't make it up.  ;D
Jaysus Albs , I had to write that down and work it out with pencil lines.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 06 December 2018, 23:15:44
 ;D ;D ;D Sorry Don.

One thing that I have found some small encouragement from in the last week or so is, that I have met several diehard remainers who told me that if there is a second vote, they will vote to leave because they will be incensed at the decision to cancel the biggest vote in the history of the country.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 07 December 2018, 04:09:19
Before Varadkar was elected talks were well underway between the uk, EU and Irish Govts. to have a Canada plus type deal, with technology used to police a soft border in Ireland.
As soon as Varadkar was elected he pulled out of these talks and steered the whole thing towards this backstop nonsense we now have.
As I said earlier, it is in breach of their precious Belfast agreement and surely its only a matter of time before some Brexiteer does a Gina Miller and goes to the supreme court over it.


are there any?

Sir Tigger for PM :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 07 December 2018, 06:42:55
Aaron Banks springs to mind, although he is being kept busy by being under constant attack by the electoral commission.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 07 December 2018, 10:19:47
From what Ive read, Churchill did believe in Europe uniting, but didn't include us in it, as we weren't European, we were British.
He said we should instead turn our gaze to the open seas.

There has been much discussion over the decades about what Churchill meant following his Zurich speech in 1947 with the threat from the Soviet Union very much in his mind:
http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

However, we must recognise that Churchill, a proud product of British Imperialism, knew the time of the British Empire was over, no matter how he hated the idea of that.  The country was bankrupt and GB was now totally reliant on the new super power, the USA.  He knew Britain could not afford to fight another war, and there was no desire left in the British people to do so.  To gain strength for Britain and the rest of Europe that had been fought so hard for at a tremendous price, and remembering the mistakes made after WW1, a united states of Europe, with joint ways of going forward in peace, albeit knowing the USSR was a big threat to that wish, made every sense.  But, Churchill being a good politician of his time knew the general public had to be let down gentle to acknowledge the new place in the World that GB now occupied, which would of course be starkly realised later in 1956 with The Suez Crisis. So he held back from stating clearly that final statement that Britain would be part of any USE.

No, what Churchill was considering in 1947 was a United States of Europe that would include Britain in the driving seat. ;)

He said in 1944 "We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not compromised. We are associated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europeand the open sea, we must always choose the open sea".

In 1953 he said.....

"We are not members of the European defence community, nor do we intend to be merged into a federal European system."

The first step in the recreation of the European family must be a partnership between France and Germany".

"We must be friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine."

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=35335.0

 :)

But as I said he was a true British politician who had to live in the context of his time, but he knew that in future Britain would need to be part of the bigger picture for the future stability of Europe and the World as a whole. That meant we would join a future European Union once the initial objectives were met between, as you rightly state, France and Germany to stop another war between the two that always developed to include others, which always eventually involved Britain as we were in treaties that meant we politically had little choice.

 Churchill knew unity was the key between democratic states, and as I previously stated he also knew Britain's power had greatly diminished so the future meant we would tread a more European path. ;)
But have you got anything to prove that statement, or is it just your own hypothesis?


It is my view based on my readings of books and papers on Winston Churchill in both the political and historical sense.  It was the direction this senior statesman was heading in given the situation and context of the time.

It does make little difference though on the situation now, apart from it should have given GB an impetus to lead the EU once we were in it but we failed to do so which would have disappointed Churchill! ::) ::) :D ;)

Now the politicians should just come together and obtain the best outcome for Great Britain and regain the trust of the British people which currently they have ALL lost! :( :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 07 December 2018, 10:36:22


It does make little difference though on the situation now, apart from it should have given GB an impetus to lead the EU once we were in it but we failed to do so which would have disappointed Churchill! ::) ::) :D ;)


It's a complete waste of time trying to work out what Churchill, Thatcher or Richard the Lionheart would have made of it all.

We've always been like the awkward guest at a wedding within the EU, as we joined for commercial reasons rather than political and have been marginalised because of this.

I don't believe that we have ever enjoyed the influence that we should have had as the organisations second biggest economy and this was shown quite starkly when David Cameron vigorously opposed the appointment of JC Junker as the President of the EU Commission, yet was out voted.  As QMV is extended to more areas of policy within the EU and the veto system is phased out the UK would have found itself outvoted more and more, probably to the detriment of our national interest.

The political project is the over riding consideration for the eurocrats and they will pursue and protect it at all costs. All those wailing and knashing their teeth about BREXIT, should bear in mind what they did to Greece.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 07 December 2018, 10:40:55
On holiday in Thailand a couple of years ago I was in a bar chatting to some people, Australians iirc, and there were some German blokes stood drinking at the bar.  I noticed that they kept looking over at me and thought "Uh Oh"...  :-\

Anyway the others left and I was finishing my beer and was about to leave when one of the German guys came over and the conversation went something like this.

German: Are you English?
Sir Tig: Er... yes..  I am.
German:  Zen I vould like to shake you by ze hand!  You are very clever people you British!
Sir Tig: Er Thanks  Why do you think that?
German: Ze European Union is destroying Europe and you British are doing ze right thing.  Zay vill make it very difficult for you, but you must see zis thing through.  If you do not ve are all lost!

With that he about turned, went back to his mates and as I bemusedly got up to go they all raised their glasses to me. "Prost!"  :y

The establishment and re-mainstream media would have us believe that the EU is universally popular on the continent.  It's not.  ;)

PS: Apologies to Rolf and any other Deutschlanders for the bad accent, just trying to set the scene!  ;D

That is very interesting to me Sir Tigger as I recognise the distinct echos of nationalism in that simple exchange.

In Germany, undoubtedly the strong country of the EU, in particular there is a strong wish to be an independant and re-establish Deutschland as a proper separate nation away from the weak members of the union. The right wing is always there, and GB leaving Europe could well produce the fall of the Union that many in Germany (and in France?) want.  Then you have the old historical situation emerging of separate strong national powers of Great Britain, Germany and France in true competition, industrially, politically (and militarily??) in existence.

Hopefully we can all live then in prosperity, but the shadows of history repeating itself will always be there unless man changes his ability to wage war.  Then instead of difficult negotiations around tables it will be back to gun fire deciding whatever it can!

On the optimistic side though I am sure we could all work together, without the stupid unregulated, uncontrolled, undemocratic  bureaucracy of the EU once the pain of the leaving process is over.  By God, I hope I am right on that at least!! ::) ::) :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 07 December 2018, 10:43:56
Speaking of British Imperialism.....

In the good old days when Queen Victoria ruled the roost (and half the globe) a number of gunboats would be dispatched to 'make the other side see sense'.......I wonder, would that approach still work today?  ::) ::) ::) ::) 8)

How many ships do we have?.......  I believe it was called gunboat diplomacy. ::)


Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 07 December 2018, 10:47:01


It does make little difference though on the situation now, apart from it should have given GB an impetus to lead the EU once we were in it but we failed to do so which would have disappointed Churchill! ::) ::) :D ;)


It's a complete waste of time trying to work out what Churchill, Thatcher or Richard the Lionheart would have made of it all.


My opinion is Sir Tigger that it is not as in history there is always indicators of how man and countries will act towards each other and how parallel situations can degenerate into a repeat of the mistakes of the past.  That is what diplomats of every type should consider when, for instance, dealing with Russia and the Crimea / Ukraine situation.  In Europe particularly we all should ensure what happened in the past NEVER happens again but, who knows....................................... :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 07 December 2018, 10:51:26
Speaking of British Imperialism.....

In the good old days when Queen Victoria ruled the roost (and half the globe) a number of gunboats would be dispatched to 'make the other side see sense'.......I wonder, would that approach still work today?  ::) ::) ::) ::) 8)

How many ships do we have?.......  I believe it was called gunboat diplomacy. ::)

I have mentioned that as well Opti, but currently that should not be considered in context of our European allies. But that form of diplomacy is always in the background with the super power of the USA, and the rebel, Russia, which is intimidating Ukraine with the threat of large military presence on it's borders.

Therefore, as painful as the BREXIT negotiations have been, that is by far the best route rather than war and all that entails!

What will happen though when the EU breaks up is anyone's guess  ::) ::) :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 07 December 2018, 10:59:58


It does make little difference though on the situation now, apart from it should have given GB an impetus to lead the EU once we were in it but we failed to do so which would have disappointed Churchill! ::) ::) :D ;)


It's a complete waste of time trying to work out what Churchill, Thatcher or Richard the Lionheart would have made of it all.


My opinion is Sir Tigger that it is not as in history there is always indicators of how man and countries will act towards each other and how parallel situations can degenerate into a repeat of the mistakes of the past.  That is what diplomats of every type should consider when, for instance, dealing with Russia and the Crimea / Ukraine situation.  In Europe particularly we all should ensure what happened in the past NEVER happens again but, who knows....................................... :(

That's true enough Lizzie, as the old saying goes that we can't work out where we are going, if we don't know where we came from.  :y  But it's just silly I think trying to deduce what people like Churchill who lived in very different times when people had very different attitudes would have thought of todays events. We just don't know. ;)

I watched an interview a couple of days ago with Alexander Downer, Australia's former Foreign Minister and now (I believe) the Australian High Commissioner to the UK.  He said that a lot of intellectual effort has been wasted in the UK arguing about whether or not we should leave the EU after the decision has been made.  He rightly in my opinion, said that if that democratic decision had been accepted and all that intellectual effort poured into making BREXIT a success then the UK would be in a better place than it is today.  :y

However....  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 07 December 2018, 11:14:41


It does make little difference though on the situation now, apart from it should have given GB an impetus to lead the EU once we were in it but we failed to do so which would have disappointed Churchill! ::) ::) :D ;)


It's a complete waste of time trying to work out what Churchill, Thatcher or Richard the Lionheart would have made of it all.


My opinion is Sir Tigger that it is not as in history there is always indicators of how man and countries will act towards each other and how parallel situations can degenerate into a repeat of the mistakes of the past.  That is what diplomats of every type should consider when, for instance, dealing with Russia and the Crimea / Ukraine situation.  In Europe particularly we all should ensure what happened in the past NEVER happens again but, who knows....................................... :(

That's true enough Lizzie, as the old saying goes that we can't work out where we are going, if we don't know where we came from.  :y  But it's just silly I think trying to deduce what people like Churchill who lived in very different times when people had very different attitudes would have thought of todays events. We just don't know. ;)

I watched an interview a couple of days ago with Alexander Downer, Australia's former Foreign Minister and now (I believe) the Australian High Commissioner to the UK. He said that a lot of intellectual effort has been wasted in the UK arguing about whether or not we should leave the EU after the decision has been made.  He rightly in my opinion, said that if that democratic decision had been accepted and all that intellectual effort poured into making BREXIT a success then the UK would be in a better place than it is today. :y

However....  ::)

Very much agree! :y :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 07 December 2018, 13:35:29
I cannot see the EU breaking up. Just wishfull thinking by those that would like to see it happen. The leadership and their sponsors are ruthless. As said look at the Greece process, Italy and their rogue budget which would have incurred a 3 billion euro fine. Oh and the total stitch up of this useless May and her hopeless Chequers plan and the backstop trap. She has behaved like a lost child seeking parental (the establishment) approval. Russia and Ukraine or Baltic states may test the EU.

The rise of far right, populism is just a temporary blip that will go away. I say that even though Vox has come from nowhere and without publicity campaign have taken 12 seats in Andalucia in this months elections.

The Australian guy was spot on. We have wasted nearly two years. Whatever happened to the No deal is better than a bad deal. I hope history records Cameron, May and Corbyn as the charlatans they are. Oh for quality statesmen and innovative negotiators.

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 08 December 2018, 04:12:15
A UK Government No Deal petition here. I've signed it, as currently, it is by far the least worst option and deal on the table. ???

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963/signatures/new (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963/signatures/new)

In fact I would call it due to May killing the Canada+ deal David Davis & Michel Barnier were negotiating, for May's vested interests establishment grey cardinals #Chequers deal, the only viable deal before 29th March 2019 now on the table. We are at the point now of salvaging the least worst outcome from May's total & utter incompetence along with her support for a very narrow band of EU benefactors and anti-democracy people like Soros (who has put $400m into post-referendum Remain groups), Blair, the Michael Gove family, landed Lords, ex-EU commission officials like the Kinnocks, Cleggs, EU grant benefactors like the BBC & other media groups, charities etc., etc.

The amount of disruption this may cause will depend on how bloody minded the EU wants to be but it will show the worst of the EU to the world and show them up for what they are. My experience from Ukraine is our global friends like America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Ukraine, Japan and others will then rally around and fully support us & supply us with any shortfalls of goods and produce. March & April is also peak season for southern-hemisphere fresh produce with established supply chains used ever year for our always available society, which won't accept most produce now being seasonal. The EU will then be back for an FTA, especially when French, Belgium, Dutch, German & Spanish farmers riot due to loss of income and rotting produce in their fields and warehouses.

Left-wing socialist May has, as planned, destroyed her Conservative 'nasty party' as I can't see them recovering from this disaster, where their reputation for competent government is now totally destroyed. 13 years in opposition was the punishment for incompetitance under Major and that was minor compared to now and took Gordon McRuin Brown's wrecking of our economy 2000-2008, to make them appear as the least worst option.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 08 December 2018, 09:07:32
18,720

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 08 December 2018, 09:38:39
Strange how that petition requires your name, email address and postcode to proceed.  :-\  Maybe everyone who signs it will be rounded up and charged with sedition.  ::)

So Amber Rudderless has started to promote the 'Norway +' option, which is basically staying in the single market and customs union and I'm sure that she has broken cover on this with May's blessing.  ::)

However, what she hasn't taken account of is that Norwegian politicians have said that they will not support the UK becoming independent members of the EEA and EFTA.   ::)  Bloody trouble makers them Brits you see!  ;D

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 08 December 2018, 09:48:46
Strange how that petition requires your name, email address and postcode to proceed.  :-\  Maybe everyone who signs it will be rounded up and charged with sedition.  ::)

So Amber Rudderless has started to promote the 'Norway +' option, which is basically staying in the single market and customs union and I'm sure that she has broken cover on this with May's blessing.  ::)

However, what she hasn't taken account of is that Norwegian politicians have said that they will not support the UK becoming independent members of the EEA and EFTA.   ::)  Bloody trouble makers them Brits you see!  ;D
The petition about the migration treaty required all your details too. It's so they know you are actually a person, not so the stasi can pay you a visit.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 08 December 2018, 09:50:52
Strange how that petition requires your name, email address and postcode to proceed.  :-\  Maybe everyone who signs it will be rounded up and charged with sedition.  ::)

So Amber Rudderless has started to promote the 'Norway +' option, which is basically staying in the single market and customs union and I'm sure that she has broken cover on this with May's blessing.  ::)

However, what she hasn't taken account of is that Norwegian politicians have said that they will not support the UK becoming independent members of the EEA and EFTA.   ::)  Bloody trouble makers them Brits you see!  ;D
The petition about the migration treaty required all your details too. It's so they know you are actually a person, not so the stasi can pay you a visit.  ;D
Unintended consequence :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 08 December 2018, 10:06:47

The petition about the migration treaty required all your details too. It's so they know you are actually a person, not so the stasi can pay you a visit.  ;D

Yer but... All the other petitions at least show how many signatories they have before you input your details.  This one you can't see how many people have signed it...  :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 08 December 2018, 10:35:31
This is boring.  Views with some people are too entrenched, on all sides, to the point of arrogance.  Its not a debate any more, its people acting like politicians, and name calling those who's views they disagree with, and not adding anything meaningful.

Due to the nature of this thread, I have to read it in case it needs modding, but the will to live is draining.

So please only add something if its new and not just stupid, like to get the soundbites like Thereasonous May or Backstabber Boris and so on.

tia
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 December 2018, 10:48:17
This is boring.  Views with some people are too entrenched, on all sides, to the point of arrogance.  Its not a debate any more, its people acting like politicians, and name calling those who's views they disagree with, and not adding anything meaningful.

Due to the nature of this thread, I have to read it in case it needs modding, but the will to live is draining.

So please only add something if its new and not just stupid, like to get the soundbites like Thereasonous May or Backstabber Boris and so on.

tia

Picture Shami totally naked and available. That will recharge your battery. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 08 December 2018, 13:20:06
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/ (https://briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 08 December 2018, 13:49:42
Heidi Allen is very easy on the eye. :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 08 December 2018, 23:30:46
https://briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/ (https://briefingsforbrexit.com/a-letter-to-remainers-by-dr-graham-gudgin/)

I suspect you could rewrite that article, change "remainer" to "brexiteer", flip the assertions and it would be just as true.

Knowing little or nothing about the EU is hardly the preserve of remainers.  ::) Particularly given the constant stream of lies and misinformation peddled (and then much later apologised for) by the daily fail, express etc Al.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/06/22/debunking-years-of-tabloid-claims-about-europe (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/06/22/debunking-years-of-tabloid-claims-about-europe)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 December 2018, 00:20:52
One thing's for sure we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two and a half years ago.  ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 09 December 2018, 02:59:13
By far the best clear, frank & concise article on why Parliament is tying itself in knots (or webs of deceit) over #Brexit. Hint:It is all due to the politicians big lie since we joined.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2018/12/07/the-game-is-up/ (https://countrysquire.co.uk/2018/12/07/the-game-is-up/)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 09 December 2018, 09:49:27
By far the best clear, frank & concise article on why Parliament is tying itself in knots (or webs of deceit) over #Brexit. Hint:It is all due to the politicians big lie since we joined.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2018/12/07/the-game-is-up/ (https://countrysquire.co.uk/2018/12/07/the-game-is-up/)
Working in the Internet business, I can tell just by looking at the seo friendly URL how that is bias ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 09 December 2018, 09:56:24
One thing's for sure we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two and a half years ago.  ::)
I think (thick) joe public aren't. They believe what the BBC/Sky/Daily Fail/Guardian (included for fairnest) etc tell them.

I believe that is why individual views are so entrenched, and differing views must be wrong.


That's why the EU will roll over and give us the crown jewels, and conversely, project doom will happen.  Obviously, reality sits in the middle somewhere.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 09 December 2018, 18:04:03
One thing's for sure we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two and a half years ago.  ::)
I think (thick) joe public aren't. They believe what the BBC/Sky/Daily Fail/Guardian (included for fairnest) etc tell them.

I believe that is why individual views are so entrenched, and differing views must be wrong.


That's why the EU will roll over and give us the crown jewels, and conversely, project doom will happen.  Obviously, reality sits in the middle somewhere.

That's a gross underestimation regarding the perceptive ability of the voting public.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 09 December 2018, 18:15:01
One thing's for sure we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two and a half years ago.  ::)
I think (thick) joe public aren't. They believe what the BBC/Sky/Daily Fail/Guardian (included for fairnest) etc tell them.

I believe that is why individual views are so entrenched, and differing views must be wrong.


That's why the EU will roll over and give us the crown jewels, and conversely, project doom will happen.  Obviously, reality sits in the middle somewhere.

That's a gross underestimation regarding the perceptive ability of the voting public.


You've never had to deal with the general public in any way whatsoever have you?


I envy you :-\
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Viral_Jim on 09 December 2018, 19:24:51
That's a gross underestimation regarding the perceptive ability of the voting public.

I'll just leave this here.  ::)
https://youtu.be/eXk7MxR5seI (https://youtu.be/eXk7MxR5seI)

For the record, I DO NOT agree with the title/caption of the video. That kind of ridiculous name calling is more than half the reason why remain couldn't engage and make a credible case for itself.

However the comments in the video stuck with me. And will probably stay in my memory for ever.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 09 December 2018, 20:25:15
None of this matters. The majority voted to leave and leave we must. The only other option is to abolish democracy in the UK. Although those who are trying to subvert the result are trying to dress it up as other things, the result of not fully leaving, or not leaving at all, is the abolition of democracy.
This is why even those who voted to remain, if faced with another vote, should as a matter of conscience and morality, go out and vote to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 December 2018, 20:34:32
Anyway there is some truth in the EU bendy banana story, as there are EU regulations that control the production and standards of fruit to be sold in the EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."   :P

I'm sure that pre-1973 there were British regulations that did much the same thing, and post 29th March 2019 the regulation will endure, albeit converted to a UK regulation.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 December 2018, 20:48:46
Anyway there is some truth in the EU bendy banana story, as there are EU regulations that control the production and standards of fruit to be sold in the EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."   :P

I'm sure that pre-1973 there were British regulations that did much the same thing, and post 29th March 2019 the regulation will endure, albeit converted to a UK regulation.  ;)
Oh dear. The EU want to ban my knob.  :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 December 2018, 21:40:43
Anyway there is some truth in the EU bendy banana story, as there are EU regulations that control the production and standards of fruit to be sold in the EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."   :P

I'm sure that pre-1973 there were British regulations that did much the same thing, and post 29th March 2019 the regulation will endure, albeit converted to a UK regulation.  ;)
Oh dear. The EU want to ban my knob.  :(

EU Commission Regulation 605/2010 covers cheese.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 09 December 2018, 21:58:21
One thing's for sure we all know a lot more about the EU than we did two and a half years ago.  ::)
I think (thick) joe public aren't. They believe what the BBC/Sky/Daily Fail/Guardian (included for fairnest) etc tell them.

I believe that is why individual views are so entrenched, and differing views must be wrong.


That's why the EU will roll over and give us the crown jewels, and conversely, project doom will happen.  Obviously, reality sits in the middle somewhere.

That's a gross underestimation regarding the perceptive ability of the voting public.


You've never had to deal with the general public in any way whatsoever have you?


I envy you :-\

One could say that that displays another element of nescience on your behalf ...... ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Darius on 10 December 2018, 11:31:16
- EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."
That is not true.

The original UK publicity was a joke article in, I think, the Daily Mail and unfortunately people did not realise they were being taken for a ride.  Boris Johnson trotted it out repeatedly as one of his campaign lies.

The Directive is a classification scheme which classifies bananas as falling into one of three different "quality classes", much the same as eggs are classified as small, medium and large.  Apples are classified as Extra, Grade I and Grade II. 

The reason for the classification regulations is that a grocer usually buys fruit blind, without seeing it, and therefore needs to know what he is getting.  Previously, there were many different grades used by the different producing countries and the traders asked the EU to bring some clarity by defining common EU standards.  Once a fruit has landed in the EU it "loses" it producing country's classification and is classified into one of the three EU classifications. 

Banana classifications have the same name as apple classifications, namely Extra, Class I and Class II.  Extra are the highest quality bananas and only these have tight limits on their shape.  The two lower quality grades are Class 1 and Class II and both are permitted to deviate from the shape norms. 

It all sounds eminently sensible to me.  Customers are very picky and will reject malformed or tiny bananas.  Were I to be a grocer I would want to know the quality of what I was buying and paying for, and not pay premium prices for poor quality fruit.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 11:49:43
Laura Kuenssberg is reporting that the vote has been pulled. Nothing official yet.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 11:52:18
And, I guess, you've all heard that the ECJ has ruled that we can cancel article 50 and all go back to being nice Europeans, and the other members can do sweet FA to stop us.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 10 December 2018, 11:53:20
Laura Kuenssberg is reporting that the vote has been pulled. Nothing official yet.

If true it shows the government has no confidence in it....
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 10 December 2018, 11:53:54
- EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."
That is not true.

The original UK publicity was a joke article in, I think, the Daily Mail and unfortunately people did not realise they were being taken for a ride.  Boris Johnson trotted it out repeatedly as one of his campaign lies.

The Directive is a classification scheme which classifies bananas as falling into one of three different "quality classes", much the same as eggs are classified as small, medium and large.  Apples are classified as Extra, Grade I and Grade II. 

The reason for the classification regulations is that a grocer usually buys fruit blind, without seeing it, and therefore needs to know what he is getting.  Previously, there were many different grades used by the different producing countries and the traders asked the EU to bring some clarity by defining common EU standards.  Once a fruit has landed in the EU it "loses" it producing country's classification and is classified into one of the three EU classifications. 

Banana classifications have the same name as apple classifications, namely Extra, Class I and Class II.  Extra are the highest quality bananas and only these have tight limits on their shape.  The two lower quality grades are Class 1 and Class II and both are permitted to deviate from the shape norms. 

It all sounds eminently sensible to me.  Customers are very picky and will reject malformed or tiny bananas.  Were I to be a grocer I would want to know the quality of what I was buying and paying for, and not pay premium prices for poor quality fruit.

Does that not seem to suggest that they have to be free from malformation or abnormal curvature ?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 10 December 2018, 11:54:03
And, I guess, you've all heard that the ECJ has ruled that we can cancel article 50 and all go back to being nice Europeans, and the other members can do sweet FA to stop us.


Could be heading this way.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 11:56:57
Laura Kuenssberg is reporting that the vote has been pulled. Nothing official yet.

If true it shows the government has no confidence in it....
No confidence? TM was on a hiding to nothing and she certainly knew that. This is either part of a grand plan or a monumental f*uck up. Answers on a postcard, please.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 12:01:34
I'm searching for somewhere to live:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/02/23/cnngo.great.places.recluse/index.html
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 December 2018, 12:12:37
- EU and Commission Regulation 2257/94 states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature."
That is not true.

The original UK publicity was a joke article in, I think, the Daily Mail and unfortunately people did not realise they were being taken for a ride.  Boris Johnson trotted it out repeatedly as one of his campaign lies.

The Directive is a classification scheme which classifies bananas as falling into one of three different "quality classes", much the same as eggs are classified as small, medium and large.  Apples are classified as Extra, Grade I and Grade II. 

The reason for the classification regulations is that a grocer usually buys fruit blind, without seeing it, and therefore needs to know what he is getting.  Previously, there were many different grades used by the different producing countries and the traders asked the EU to bring some clarity by defining common EU standards.  Once a fruit has landed in the EU it "loses" it producing country's classification and is classified into one of the three EU classifications. 

Banana classifications have the same name as apple classifications, namely Extra, Class I and Class II.  Extra are the highest quality bananas and only these have tight limits on their shape.  The two lower quality grades are Class 1 and Class II and both are permitted to deviate from the shape norms. 

It all sounds eminently sensible to me.  Customers are very picky and will reject malformed or tiny bananas.  Were I to be a grocer I would want to know the quality of what I was buying and paying for, and not pay premium prices for poor quality fruit.

It is true and the link below from the EU parliament proves this, but what you write is also largely correct.  :y

I did say in my post that it was part of EU regulations governing standards of fruit.  ::)

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/media/euromyths/bendybananas.html
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 10 December 2018, 12:14:27
I'm searching for somewhere to live:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TRAVEL/02/23/cnngo.great.places.recluse/index.html

I believe North Korea is welcoming scousers at the moment. The crime rate is too low and needs bringing into line with the west.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 10 December 2018, 13:52:45
I suspect we could well be watching a put up job. She comes back with her one and only deal, everyone screams about how shite it is etc. She goes back and gains some small concessions and comes back triumphant and enough MP,s fall into line.
We shall see.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 December 2018, 15:28:40
I suspect we could well be watching a put up job. She comes back with her one and only deal, everyone screams about how shite it is etc. She goes back and gains some small concessions and comes back triumphant and enough MP,s fall into line.
We shall see.
.



Might have hit the nail right on the head there.🎄🎄🎄
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 18:11:46
She has found a way to stop asking the electorate until they get it right. Keep asking parliament until they get it right.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 10 December 2018, 18:19:06
If she gets rid of the backstop completely, MPs think enough will vote for it to pass. If she doesn't it won't. But May regardless is on borrowed time as she is being ridiculed & called incompetent by everybody including her MPs and Tory party members & many commentators are also saying she is probably the worst PM ever. She has used up beyond credibility with all her threats to MPs, her postcard to the public which Tory party members have refused to deliver and her waste-of-time cabinet roadshow, saying all along that she won't cancel the vote only to do so at the very last minute.

MPs will then let her own it until post 29th March 2019 and then get rid of her. She has done far to much damage to the Conservative party and where the cabinet & MPs think they have then got off scott free once they get a new leader, they haven't as the Tories have totally lost their tag of competent government & many will not vote for them again even if it means a Corbyn government.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 10 December 2018, 18:20:51
The majority voted to leave and leave we must.
We've found something we both agree on about the whole shitopps.

Now, with 3.5 months to run, we have to decide how.  And that's going to be contentious.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 18:22:52
I've gone from engaged to enraged and now to apathetic. In or out is going to end up looking pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: TheBoy on 10 December 2018, 18:23:38
Now I personally don't believe anyone could have negotiated a significantly better deal, and everyone knows the reasons why.

But by delaying the vote, she is now toast.  She should have gone through with it, and that would have added some credence to her going back with the begging cap.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 10 December 2018, 18:25:27
We are the laughing stock of Europe.

Anyone ever worked for a manager unable to implement necessary change?

I wonder what the EU are going to discuss on Thursday?  Halving the UK contributions when we rejoin plus a gift of £100 to every uk man, woman and child.10% discount on German cars and white goods. Maybe not maybe they will fast track the future trade agreement offer to negate even having the backstop clause?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 18:27:18
We are the laughing stock of Europe.

Anyone ever worked for a manager unable to implement necessary change?

I wonder what the EU are going to discuss on Thursday?  Halving the UK contributions when we rejoin plus a gift of £100 to every uk man, woman and child.10% discount on German cars and white goods. Maybe not maybe they will fast track the future trade agreement offer to negate even having the backstop clause?
£100 you say? Will we get it before Christmas?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 10 December 2018, 18:33:29
We are the laughing stock of Europe.

Anyone ever worked for a manager unable to implement necessary change?

I wonder what the EU are going to discuss on Thursday?  Halving the UK contributions when we rejoin plus a gift of £100 to every uk man, woman and child.10% discount on German cars and white goods. Maybe not maybe they will fast track the future trade agreement offer to negate even having the backstop clause?
£100 you say? Will we get it before Christmas?
They can pay it along with my Winter Fuel Allowance. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 18:39:15
We are the laughing stock of Europe.

Anyone ever worked for a manager unable to implement necessary change?

I wonder what the EU are going to discuss on Thursday?  Halving the UK contributions when we rejoin plus a gift of £100 to every uk man, woman and child.10% discount on German cars and white goods. Maybe not maybe they will fast track the future trade agreement offer to negate even having the backstop clause?
£100 you say? Will we get it before Christmas?
They can pay it along with my Winter Fuel Allowance. ;D
I've had my WFA, and me £10 Christmas bonus.  ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 10 December 2018, 18:59:30
Hmm I have just fetched another wheelbarrow of logs . No winter fuel allowance here for me. IDS said it was too hot. Is the £10 in uk bearer bonds? The exchange rate has gone down again thanks to May. Soon £10 will be a euro. Ronny, have you got a spare room in your Centrally heated palace?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: ronnyd on 10 December 2018, 19:06:06
Hmm I have just fetched another wheelbarrow of logs . No winter fuel allowance here for me. IDS said it was too hot. Is the £10 in uk bearer bonds? The exchange rate has gone down again thanks to May. Soon £10 will be a euro. Ronny, have you got a spare room in your Centrally heated palace?
Yeah, two actually. In my so called 4 bed Noddy box. 8)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 December 2018, 19:21:09
SWMBO got her WFA a couple of weeks ago & had a small tax rebate so we will be able to afford hard boiled eggs with a piece of Holly on top, it's not easy being semi retired have to watch every penny.🎄🎄🎄🎄
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 10 December 2018, 19:33:59
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 19:34:08
SWMBO got her WFA a couple of weeks ago & had a small tax rebate so we will be able to afford hard boiled eggs with a piece of Holly on top, it's not easy being semi retired have to watch every penny.🎄🎄🎄🎄
Holly!!!? Fickin luxury........ ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 10 December 2018, 19:39:59
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Yes as I said earlier, you have May to thank for that. I filled up with super derv at 1.23 euro today. Cooking derv was 1.17. Fuel is going to go up anyway due to agreed lower production. Tilbo will have to walk everywhere!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 December 2018, 19:46:23
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Yes as I said earlier, you have May to thank for that. I filled up with super derv at 1.23 euro today. Cooking derv was 1.17. Fuel is going to go up anyway due to agreed lower production. Tilbo will have to walk everywhere!
.


Haven't got a decent pair of shoes ! What am I going to do.
😀😁😂
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: henryd on 10 December 2018, 20:23:30
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Crickey Lizzie,Asda unleaded was £1-14.9 at lunchtime today down here in the South West :o
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 December 2018, 20:37:33
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(
Unnecessary scare mongering nonsense... Which sadly fuels (no pun intended) a self fulfilling prophecy  >:(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 10 December 2018, 20:46:21
For me, what today proved beyond doubt is that despite her repeatedly saying the opposite - it is all about her trying to save her own career and not about the good of the country.
She was unlikely to survive this week, but now she has kicked the can down the road again, until sometime after Christmas, and she will try and make it impossible, timewise, for her to be replaced before the end of March.  >:(
She isn't the worst PM ever. That award has to go to Blair for the huge, permanent, wilful damage he did to the UK, but she must surely be the most incompetent PM ever. Even surpassing Gormless Mcruin.
It really is like observing the office receptionist who somehow ended up as Managing director.
She is a complete disgrace and has to go.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Steve B on 10 December 2018, 20:49:25
For me, what today proved beyond doubt is that despite her repeatedly saying the opposite - it is all about her trying to save her own career and not about the good of the country.
She was unlikely to survive this week, but now she has kicked the can down the road again, until sometime after Christmas, and she will try and make it impossible, timewise, for her to be replaced before the end of March.  >:(
She isn't the worst PM ever. That award has to go to Blair for the huge, permanent, wilful damage he did to the UK, but she must surely be the most incompetent PM ever. Even surpassing Gormless Mcruin.
It really is like observing the office receptionist who somehow ended up as Managing director.
She is a complete disgrace and has to go.
Spot on me thinks.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 10 December 2018, 21:05:03
I think she is genuine. Deranged, but genuine.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: 2boxerdogs on 10 December 2018, 21:06:27
We have been talking about this whole shambles for months at work , the general opinion boils down to for once the government had a specific job to do , but none of them had a clue what to do , the result is a total utter disgrace which as someone on here mentioned earlier has made this country a complete laughing stock.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 10 December 2018, 21:50:48
I don't think I've ever felt as dejected and bruised after listening to irish radio today.
They have been utterly ruthless in their mockery of " the Brits " .
Their pm announcing with grandiose aplomb ,and a sweep of the hand ,that the British people can take it or leave it but that's it ,the deal is done .
How genuinly hurtful it is to have this odious , devious , insignifiLady bits little squeek have the audacity to issue an edict to the British people .
They've had bog farmers to  :-\ near bog farmers on every station giving their barely comprehensible rendition of how the aul country fckued "the Brits " again .

Interestingly I spoke with several slightly less than dumb locals at the weekend who are steadily realising , with some serious concern , that if it all goes wrong for " the Brits " there will be severe collateral damage on this little remote outpost of the eu.
Oh how I will gloat ......
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 December 2018, 22:03:47
... From Spain :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 10 December 2018, 22:11:31
I don't think I've ever felt as dejected and bruised after listening to irish radio today.
They have been utterly ruthless in their mockery of " the Brits " .
Their pm announcing with grandiose aplomb ,and a sweep of the hand ,that the British people can take it or leave it but that's it ,the deal is done .
How genuinly hurtful it is to have this odious , devious , insignifiLady bits little squeek have the audacity to issue an edict to the British people .
They've had bog farmers to  :-\ near bog farmers on every station giving their barely comprehensible rendition of how the aul country fckued "the Brits " again .

Interestingly I spoke with several slightly less than dumb locals at the weekend who are steadily realising , with some serious concern , that if it all goes wrong for " the Brits " there will be severe collateral damage on this little remote outpost of the eu.
Oh how I will gloat ......
  yet, if the UK cut off trade with them, they would be a third world country again by next Christmas.

All this new found friendship and peaceful intent between them and the UK is bollix. Ive never bought into it and never will.
Build a fickin big wall and tell them to far cough.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 10 December 2018, 22:44:54
... From Spain :D

Portugal is looking more and more favourable ....... :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 10 December 2018, 22:54:18
... From Spain :D

Portugal is looking more and more favourable ....... :y


Portugal??? The only reason they're not the financial black hole of the EU is that they can't beat Greece at it.


We only use pigs as an acronym for the shitty end of Europe because gpsi isn't a word.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 December 2018, 23:16:14
... From Spain :D

Portugal is looking more and more favourable ....... :y


Portugal??? The only reason they're not the financial black hole of the EU is that they can't beat Greece at it.


We only use pigs as an acronym for the shitty end of Europe because gipsi isn't a word.

It is (sort of) if you include Italy.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 10 December 2018, 23:18:32
... From Spain :D

Portugal is looking more and more favourable ....... :y


Portugal ??? The only reason they're not the financial black hole of the EU is that they can't beat Greece at it.


We only use pigs as an acronym for the shitty end of Europe because gipsi isn't a word.

It is (sort of) if you include Italy.  :)


your example requires including Italy twice. Is that because we caught them up when they were running away?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 December 2018, 23:20:17
... From Spain :D

Portugal is looking more and more favourable ....... :y


Portugal ??? The only reason they're not the financial black hole of the EU is that they can't beat Greece at it.


We only use pigs as an acronym for the shitty end of Europe because gipsi isn't a word.

It is (sort of) if you include Italy.  :)


your example requires including Italy twice. Is that because we caught them up when they were running away?

Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Ireland.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Nick W on 10 December 2018, 23:25:38

PIGS is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain

Ireland is pocket change compared to the other 4. And the EU would happily dump them on us if they thought they could get away with it.


We would be better off getting both Irelands to merge and sort themselves out. Anytime in the last thousand years. England has only kept stirring up trouble there because it's a good excuse/training for a large standing army.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 December 2018, 23:28:57
Anyway, I'd imagine that Don will find lots of cheap property in Portugal and I doubt that the fact that most of them are half built will faze him.  :-\  ::)

He'll be used to seeing that sort of thing in Ireland!  ;D

In fact you could probably describe Portugal as an Iberian Ireland, with the benefit that Don won't know whether the locals down the boozer are slagging off the Spanish or the Brits!  ;)  :D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 10 December 2018, 23:31:53

PIGS is Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain

Ireland is pocket change compared to the other 4. And the EU would happily dump them on us if they thought they could get away with it.


We would be better off getting both Irelands to merge and sort themselves out. Anytime in the last thousand years. England has only kept stirring up trouble there because it's a good excuse/training for a large standing army.

No Ireland was included as it required an EU bailout and a not insubstantial loan from the UK and the group were known as the PIIGS.  ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Olympia5776 on 11 December 2018, 10:07:49
Anyway, I'd imagine that Don will find lots of cheap property in Portugal and I doubt that the fact that most of them are half built will faze him.  :-\  ::)

He'll be used to seeing that sort of thing in Ireland!  ;D

In fact you could probably describe Portugal as an Iberian Ireland, with the benefit that Don won't know whether the locals down the boozer are slagging off the Spanish or the Brits!  ;)  :D

Ahha , I have a cunning plan ......

(https://i.ibb.co/dg4jw1M/9781118399217.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 11 December 2018, 10:30:34
Anyway, I'd imagine that Don will find lots of cheap property in Portugal and I doubt that the fact that most of them are half built will faze him.  :-\  ::)

He'll be used to seeing that sort of thing in Ireland!  ;D

In fact you could probably describe Portugal as an Iberian Ireland, with the benefit that Don won't know whether the locals down the boozer are slagging off the Spanish or the Brits!  ;)  :D

Ahha , I have a cunning plan ......

(https://i.ibb.co/dg4jw1M/9781118399217.jpg)

You're a cunning linguist!   :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 11 December 2018, 18:42:37
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Yes as I said earlier, you have May to thank for that. I filled up with super derv at 1.23 euro today. Cooking derv was 1.17. Fuel is going to go up anyway due to agreed lower production. Tilbo will have to walk everywhere!

Well that's sod law init!! ::) ::)

Go to Sainsbury's today and the price has fallen to £1.199 per litre!!

That's my reward for trying to be clever! ::) :(
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 11 December 2018, 19:27:24
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Yes as I said earlier, you have May to thank for that. I filled up with super derv at 1.23 euro today. Cooking derv was 1.17. Fuel is going to go up anyway due to agreed lower production. Tilbo will have to walk everywhere!

Well that's sod law init!! ::) ::)

Go to Sainsbury's today and the price has fallen to £1.199 per litre!!

That's my reward for trying to be clever! ::) :(

Crude oil has been falling nicely of late.  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 11 December 2018, 19:30:07
The pound started it's fall today, so I quickly went to Sainsbury's to fill up at £1.214 per litre; cheapest it's been for months and months, which obviously will not last now! :o :o :'(

Yes as I said earlier, you have May to thank for that. I filled up with super derv at 1.23 euro today. Cooking derv was 1.17. Fuel is going to go up anyway due to agreed lower production. Tilbo will have to walk everywhere!

Well that's sod law init!! ::) ::)

Go to Sainsbury's today and the price has fallen to £1.199 per litre!!

That's my reward for trying to be clever! ::) :(

Crude oil has been falling nicely of late.  :y

Ah right :y

Well I've just lost 90p by filling up yesterday and not today. Us motorist just cannot win can we?! ::) ;)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 December 2018, 00:17:31
Ye we can.Buy oil shares and hang on to them for 6 - 12 months.   :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:15:42
It's all getting a bit farcical in the house these days, and there are some very angry MPs about. I thought, since the vote is only six days away, that I'd better resurrect this arguement thread.  :-X
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 January 2019, 18:17:08
Yay!  :y
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:18:36
Yay!  :y
Don't you 'yay' me, yer bastard. Remainer, are we?  >:( >:(

 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Varche on 09 January 2019, 18:23:48
Had a quick look in the thread , thought it might have all been sorted by now :y

9th Jan 2021
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 09 January 2019, 18:25:13
Its very simple really. Parliament gave the power back to the people to take a decision. They were astonished when we took the wrong decision. Now they (and the rest of the establishment) are desperate to reverse the decision while swearing blind that they are doing everything they can to implement the decision, that we were actually too stupid to be allowed to make.
They know full well that EU negotiations always go to the very last minute, before anything is settled, yet they are trying to prevent their own country from have any negotiating leverage when we reach that point.
Its nothing short of treason imo.
Also, Bercow as an utter disgraceful excuse for a human being. I loathe that hateful little poison dwarf.

As for swivel eyed Soubry crying foul because people were nasty to her. Words fail me.  ::)

If May really cared about the country as she claims to, and had a modicum of self awareness, she would have stood down after the last election and let someone else take over. She is a waste of skin.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:28:14
I knew I could rely on you to remain calm, Albs. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 09 January 2019, 18:31:57
Im getting past angry Steve. Utter despair is creeping in. Although I know what a shower of shite they are in Westminster, I didn't think they would completely disregard Democracy so easily and happily.
These people really are the scum of the earth.
I doubt I will ever vote again, or even pay the slightest regard for any laws or rules they pass down to us.
Fak em.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 18:34:59
Another  peoples vote could be the answer.

Another 48/52 split will bring perfect clarity. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:35:12
Im getting past angry Steve. Utter despair is creeping in. Although I know what a shower of shite they are in Westminster, I didn't think they would completely disregard Democracy so easily and happily.
These people really are the scum of the earth.
I doubt I will ever vote again, or even pay the slightest regard for any laws or rules they pass down to us.
Fak em.
Despite the cries of anguish from the lily-livered in the house, there is still a good chance of a no deal. Neither of the two recent votes have any basis in law, the news channels are, as usual, just stirring the shit. I read a fact....yes, fact.....sheet yesterday. I'll see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 18:37:54
Im getting past angry Steve. Utter despair is creeping in. Although I know what a shower of shite they are in Westminster, I didn't think they would completely disregard Democracy so easily and happily.
These people really are the scum of the earth.
I doubt I will ever vote again, or even pay the slightest regard for any laws or rules they pass down to us.
Fak em.
Despite the cries of anguish from the lily-livered in the house, there is still a good chance of a no deal. Neither of the two recent votes have any basis in law, the news channels are, as usual, just stirring the shit. I read a fact....yes, fact.....sheet yesterday. I'll see if I can find it.

This is 'Brexit as described'........properly leaving the EU.

Won't happen though.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:38:09
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 18:41:35
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:48:05
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 18:51:10
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?

Yeah...but leave how?

The definition of 'leave ' or us 'leaving the EU' is as loose as a hookers fanny. :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 18:54:52
I could say that Brexit has not gone to plan. KW will tell you there never was a plan.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 18:58:07
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?

Yeah...but leave how?

The definition of 'leave ' or us 'leaving the EU' is as loose as a hookers fanny. :)
Leave....just leave. FU Q, we're off!
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 19:00:07
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?

Yeah...but leave how?

The definition of 'leave ' or us 'leaving the EU' is as loose as a hookers fanny. :)
Leave....just leave. FU Q, we're off!

Here lies the problem. That nice Mrs May also describes her deal as 'leaving the EU'.........I don't.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: STEMO on 09 January 2019, 19:01:03
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?

Yeah...but leave how?

The definition of 'leave ' or us 'leaving the EU' is as loose as a hookers fanny. :)
Leave....just leave. FU Q, we're off!

Here lies the problem. That nice Mrs May also describes her deal as 'leaving the EU'.........I don't.
But that will get voted down. You're as bad as Anna Soubury.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 09 January 2019, 19:06:13
There you go, Albs, that should cheer you up:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46799778

Anna Soubry will never it happen ;)

Do you think old Albs would be offended if I changed my avatar from sexy Shami to Sexy Anna? ::) ::)
You don't seem to understand, Opti, no one can stop it. Another vote or a general election are the only ways to stop us leaving on March 29th. May, quite rightly, won't sanction another vote, and a general election can only be brought about by her party losing a vote of no confidence.
Would Soubury the turkey vote for Christmas?

Yeah...but leave how?

The definition of 'leave ' or us 'leaving the EU' is as loose as a hookers fanny. :)
Leave....just leave. FU Q, we're off!

Here lies the problem. That nice Mrs May also describes her deal as 'leaving the EU'.........I don't.
But that will get voted down. You're as bad as Anna Soubury.

I would think so but perhaps Theresa 'lowered' her knickers for Jean Claude in one last desperate attempt to get a better deal from the EU.

Sex and power have always been mixed. 8) ::)
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 09 January 2019, 19:52:21
Remoaners are getting increasingly desperate & despite his best efforts of French born & educated MP Dominic Grieve hasn't succeeded with Macon's wish yet. May's BBF & 4th Reich leader Merkel & her party are starting to get twitchy at the thought of all of those fields full of RH drive cars & unsold rotting crops as her ministers are now instructing UK MPs to do the right thing & vote for Treason May's sellout. Two main German EU negotiators for May's disaster are openly bragging if passed it gives the EU all the top cards & rule making which the UK will have to accept with no say on what they impose. >:( >:( >:(

Personally, I think May will delay her sellout vote again as she will lose. If she loses, Corbyn is going to call a no-confidence vote with the usual Tory traitors threatening to vote against the government & end their political careers, so we might get an April election after we have left the EU & no deal project fear hasn't happened. Grieve's 3 days for an alternative plan is meaningless as it is procedural rather than law.

What Bercow, Grieve & others are doing are doing is wreaking our unwritten constitution & conventions for short term advantage, like in the US which they are copying & long term, like in the US, it will not end well. ???
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Sir Tigger KC on 09 January 2019, 20:42:16
It's turning into the biggest stitch up since the Bayeux Tapestry!  ::)

Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Rods2 on 09 January 2019, 21:08:17
IMV May running with the hares while hunting with the hounds has badly damaged the Tory party long term, only Corbyn have kept her poll ratings acceptable. As per usual her complete incompetence has produced her utter confusion which will be followed by another of her total clutterfu*ks.

Where she has made such a mess, we might if we're lucky run out of time so we leave on, a far from ideal, No Deal.
Title: Re: Brexit negotiations
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 09 January 2019, 21:17:53
We can only hope ;)