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Author Topic: Oohh dear... not starting!  (Read 5625 times)

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Diamond Black Geezer

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Oohh dear... not starting!
« on: 30 October 2019, 08:21:16 »

First thing this morning nice and chilly she wouldn't start. Turning over fast like a good 'un, starter and battery clearly very good. Immediately think...

1 Crank sensor
2 Fuel pump
3 Fuel pump fuse / Relay


1 Been good as gold not started 'dickey' at any point
2 Car at 20 litres, if fuel pump was on its way out would have started with a struggle, but eventually fired, getting progressively worse as fuel level drops.
3 Tried swapping fuse 19 with headlamp - car started!  ;D

But... Headlamps also worked  ??? Could be a fracture in the fuse, I hear sometimes old fuses can have a crack and can be dickey, but for now happy to assume it's perfectly fine.

I'm thinking crank sensor for now - don't want to send my car out with Miss DBG (who needs it for work reliably ) until I've solved the problem "the car starts" yes, but only through what I can assume pure luck. Equally I don't want to change it 'just because' - then she doesn't start again in a few days I've cured nothing. Am I missing anything else obvious?
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #1 on: 30 October 2019, 08:28:04 »

Unlikely but might be worth checking the fuel pump cover plate on top of the tank hasn't started to rust through one of the pipes.

Does sound more of an electrical issue though.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #2 on: 30 October 2019, 09:00:37 »

Ta mate, yeah fuel tank top plate is a good nick one I fitted it myself not too long ago, shiny black paint.

I'm changing the sensor when it warms up a a bit and go from there. Found a test for CS also with a multimeter so will try that on the old one.  :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #3 on: 30 October 2019, 09:39:28 »

Don't ignore the fuel pump...
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #4 on: 30 October 2019, 11:44:47 »

Got the CS out and discovered a potential issue...





'iron filings'  :o first pic was on the crank sensor itself, the second I stuck a magnet inside the hole in the block switled it around to find this. Ive doen it a couple more times and nothing else. My thought is this -

could these deposits be enough to throw the sensor off enough to make it 'dicky'?? I'd say surely, but I've never come across this before. Coincidentally enough I've had the sump pan off a matter of weeks ago and there were no such deposits in there, I checked when cleaning it as a matter of course..


EDIT: Just remembered did the oil and filters/oil cooler/plugs/NS cat same time sump was off - decided to pop the CS off to make access easier, definitely wasn't any filings on it then.  :(
« Last Edit: 30 October 2019, 11:55:39 by Diamond Black Geezer »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #5 on: 30 October 2019, 12:55:19 »

My daily had filings in the oil filter cap (paper filter version) a couple of oil changes ago... None in subsequent oil changes so stopped worrying, at over 226K I will just keep driving it... Be pleased if it gets to next summer!
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #6 on: 30 October 2019, 13:06:56 »

Ta. I suppose point 1 is "should I worry theres metal shavings in my engine?" which I suppose yes, it's something which does happen (I did discover some small fragments 1 or 2mm in size of some alloy in the oil pickup strainer when I had the sump off which I've since put out of my mind/not losing sleep over as 'just one of those things'

Point 2 is of course - will this throw the crank sensor off, or give it occasional, sufficient cause to be a bit dicky form time to time. Can anyone say for certain one way or another?  :-\

Currently doing the test posted on here with a multimeter. Will let people know results shortly.  :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #7 on: 30 October 2019, 13:21:11 »

SO...  :D

Repeating this test http://www.vauxhallownersnetwork.co.uk/showthread.php?39425-Vectra-How-to-check-a-V6-crank-sensor (seen here https://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=77062.msg1033216#msg1033216)

we read ohm resistance over terminals 1 & 2 and
Volts over terminals 1 & 2 with ferrous object (handy lump of steel)

old sensor
500 ohms
1.50 to 1.99 volts

brand new sensor sealed in GM bag sensor I dug out of the boot
518 ohms
1.31 to 1.90 volts

The volts spike only for a second before dropping off, so it's as much about the refresh rate of the multimeter/how quick you can read the screen as anything. As we can see the readings seem to be damn near identical.

Recommended levels seem to be...
400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #8 on: 30 October 2019, 14:42:58 »

Manual or auto ?
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #9 on: 30 October 2019, 16:19:51 »

 I've got a new early CS.
 

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #10 on: 30 October 2019, 18:11:52 »

400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
Resistance depends on the sensor. There are three possibilities.
The two earliest types are 550Ω. One has a squared ends on the connector. One has oval and is made by Siemens.

The most common sensor is marked Bosch 0 261 210 131. And is 850Ω. It's also oval ends on the connector.

Does your sensor have a square sided connector as posted in the photo by biggriffin above?
I suggest you post up details of any logos, GM / Bosch / Siemens etc visible on the head of your sensor. And also any part numbers.




« Last Edit: 30 October 2019, 18:29:08 by Enceladus »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #11 on: 30 October 2019, 19:31:33 »

400-800ohms
No voltage suggests duff sensor.

Personally I'd say that's proven the old sensor is working perfectly fine, pointing to the iron filings throwing readings off a touch. Maybe recent oil change has dislodged something, and the metal has found its way to the only magnetic thing in the block?

Anyone want to say why I'm wrong?  :D ;D
Resistance depends on the sensor. There are three possibilities.
The two earliest types are 550Ω. One has a squared ends on the connector. One has oval and is made by Siemens.

The most common sensor is marked Bosch 0 261 210 131. And is 850Ω. It's also oval ends on the connector.

Does your sensor have a square sided connector as posted in the photo by biggriffin above?
I suggest you post up details of any logos, GM / Bosch / Siemens etc visible on the head of your sensor. And also any part numbers.


No just buy a new one, from a dealer if it's oval plug, or from me if it's square plug, problem solved. Isn't worth faffing around with C's they either work or not, soon as they play up change it
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #12 on: 30 October 2019, 23:48:21 »

Right, apologies for the delay in replying, Ihad to go to work  ::) they don't like to pay me unless I turn up for some reason!  ;)

So...
Manual or auto ?
Auto - if you were wondering was the car out of Park/the switch under the lever wasn't working as it should, no all cool  :y

Biggriffin and Enceladus-
My part number is 90492061 (both the one fitted to the car and the spare I have) will gladly post a pic tomorrow just to clarify. It's the Siemens one.  :)

Also thanks for the more accurate resistance readings on these sensors.  :y

Looking like biggriffin's sensor no good for me, but thanks v much for the kind offer  :y

So are we saying the iron shavings on the end isn't/cannot be causing the issue?


I happily have till Monday now to do some other jobs (coolant hose swap, idler, coppergrease brakes before winter bites, groaning suspension) so will be able to monitor how car runs/if starts scientifically day by day.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #13 on: 31 October 2019, 00:38:32 »

The engine must be an X25XE?

The sensor is triggered by the ferrous teeth on the reluctor wheel behind the hole. Might have 58 teeth and a 2 tooth gap. There is a small gap between the sensor and the wheel teeth. You don't want want iron (magnetic) shards on the sensor. Or between the reluctor teeth. I don't know where your metal shards came from but I hope it's not from the reluctor teeth. If the wheel has interfered with the sensor then I would expect to see damage to the tip of the sensor.

Providing that the teeth on the wheel are undamaged and there are no shards on or other damage to the sensor head, then it's probably all right.

Perhaps the sensor was misaligned. The sensor is supposed to be square on to the reluctor teeth. And snug in it's bore. Did you perhaps damage or displace the o-ring when you removed and re-instated the sensor? Or is there any crud in the sensor bore or the seal land? Or has the o-ring gone hard?

Clean the bore for the sensor as best you can. And make sure that the sensor is pushed fully home before you tighten the bolt.
« Last Edit: 31 October 2019, 00:46:38 by Enceladus »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #14 on: 31 October 2019, 19:25:08 »

Cheers for the detailed info there  :) Yes, X25XE  :y

Yes, as you say if there's been any reluctor-sensor contact then the plastic sensor would surely be chewed etc. I agree. It's definitely 'good as new' visually, cleaned it up and all's fine. I cleaned up inside the bore also stuck a small magnet on a stick in there, found a little more 'filings' but after another couple of prods n pokes no more has come out.

Everything else you suggest seems 'fine' o rings, misaligned sensor etc. No visible issues.

Today I fitted the hoses I got off biggriffin, so once coolant is added tomorrow and she's turned over to get rid of airlocks I may pop the sensor out again, just to see if any more of these filings/shavings have appeared.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #15 on: 03 November 2019, 19:29:40 »

ohhhhh bugger!!!

 :'( :'( :'(

5 days she's had for me to go nose to tail, she started up no issue two days ago to bleed the coolant after I redid the hoses. I cleaned and refitted the original crank sensor (what a silly decision)... she wouldn't start this evening! So, world's quickest Crank Sensor change in history and... still wouldn't start!

Jacked up the rear, smashed the bottom of the tank with my hands a few times and away she went! So.. fuel pump then.

Who said "Don't ignore the fuel pump... "??  :y

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #16 on: 03 November 2019, 22:11:21 »

 ::)

At least you know that the crank sensor is good :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #17 on: 03 November 2019, 22:43:53 »

Hoping I'll get away with it for a couple of days if the tanks kept above half way, until I can get a fuel pump sent.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #18 on: 03 November 2019, 23:29:15 »

Hoping I'll get away with it for a couple of days if the tanks kept above half way, until I can get a fuel pump sent.
I made that misjudgement with the Trolley. Kept cutting out under load. Level won't make any difference.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #19 on: 04 November 2019, 07:25:22 »

Miss DBG just called from Asda car park on way r to work - won't start  :'(

need a fuel pump asap.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #20 on: 04 November 2019, 09:56:40 »

 :-X

A NOther cheapy will get you moving, but budget for a decent one in the spring :y

If Tunnie is 'working' from home, perhaps he could liberate his old one.

I believe the pump core is the same across the range, but the assemblies differ saloon to estate.

Easy enough to swap out either :y
« Last Edit: 04 November 2019, 09:59:38 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #21 on: 04 November 2019, 10:26:55 »

I know it's the early type, which has two 'male' space connectors, as opposed to the later type where there's a physical 'plug and socket' style of fitting.

I can get one probably next day delivery Bosch online, or a cheapy local tomorrow ( ::)) for no difference in price. As you say, any cheapy will want replacing for a pukka one.

While I'm in there I want to chepc that there's not something silly like gunk in the strainer/swirl pot - although I think I'm wishful thinking as I was in there earlier this year, as she was struggling to start then - and was a bit of rubbish in there, cleaned it out and she ran better since. Maybe it was a combination of a weak pump plus the grit in the tank.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #22 on: 04 November 2019, 10:33:52 »

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #23 on: 04 November 2019, 10:34:58 »

Links just died - has someone bought it!?  :o
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #25 on: 04 November 2019, 10:44:45 »

Buy a new pump.
Just the pump, as it just clips into the assembly. They're the same for most Vauxhalls and ought to be an over the counter part. Cheap or branded, it will still be better than scratching around trying to find a used one
The last one has been working constantly for the last ???,000 miles
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #26 on: 04 November 2019, 10:56:45 »

Yep, I'm up against a couple of things - I've got to leave for work about 2pm today - so collecting anything unless really close is out for today, so will be going tomorrow whatever - I can get a branny also by tomorrow.  :(

Got a Bosch one ordered, the guy's even sending it 1st class recorded in with the price - £56 all in. (was £55.20 inc vat for a local motorfactor cheapy noname one)

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #27 on: 04 November 2019, 11:02:24 »

That was the other thing Nick, as you say - I don't mind spending the money on OEM/original Vx etc because the last one lasted 209k miles... if I could nip up the road to someone's scrapper and pop used one out, and make it work/fit, equally I'd be cool with that for now.

Large thanks especially to Mr Smeagle for the prompt assistance and for diagnosing the correct issue in the first place (well, we technically have to fit it and check to be dead sure, but if it's not the actual pump then surely a lump of stone lodged in it, so same thing, really  ;D)
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #28 on: 04 November 2019, 11:43:47 »

The old pump will probably run on the bench, but unless the pressure is enough to push it through the FPR, it's unlikely to be driveable ;)
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #29 on: 07 November 2019, 00:13:55 »

Bosch pump fitted, swirl pot cleaned out, a fair amount of grit in there, car running well. bottle of ye olde redex chucked in for good measure. 24 hours and still running well, so fingers crossed that's it for now...

again, thanks gents for all the input.
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #30 on: 07 November 2019, 00:16:22 »

 :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #31 on: 07 November 2019, 07:55:25 »

Further to tha saga...

Miss DBG starts up for work today, lumpy as owt - cats rattling like a good un (7month old and kaput  >:( - new replacement arrived yesterday) off she goes,

She rings me on route, and lumpy on acceleration, doesn't seem to want to go over 2.5k, no power. Sounds like engine in a tizzy, and gone into limp home mode. Tried to get her to switch off and on, but no opportunity to. Maintaining speed seemed smooth, when stationary in D=lumpy, in P=smooth  ??? after 20 mins or so, seems to have straightened out, running lovely.

it was damp this morning - Dis pack?
bit of gunk in the recently very disturbed fuel lines stuck in an injector, which the redex and Tesco Utimatum has dissolved.
chunk of cat blocking the exhaust, causing backpressure nastiness.

let's hope say it'll never happen again, but what do we think?
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #32 on: 07 November 2019, 09:49:10 »

Damp :y

Check the scuttle foam ;)
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #33 on: 07 November 2019, 09:58:17 »

Yup. I do keep an eye on it, (and has been sealed with bathroom sealant) but as we know, things change. Will have a look tonight check it's not soaked up some.

just occurred to me we park half on the pavement, so at an angle, and last night we happened to be facing the other way. ( we never face this way, but I wanted to check the recently swapped idler arm's nuts were torqued correctly)- meaning any water would run the opposite direction to usual. Will investigate when she's home...and the missus.  :y
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #34 on: 07 November 2019, 11:15:19 »

You have more faith in the effectiveness of Redex than I do if you think it's moved enough dirt to upset the fuel system. And the fuel filter would catch it before it got to the engine.


Most fuel faults are electrical.....
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Re: Oohh dear... not starting!
« Reply #35 on: 07 November 2019, 16:03:29 »

yeah, twas just a theory i was chucking out there still half-asleep  :y

back home now and scuttle foam is a little wet, so will get sealant in there again when i can.  :)
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