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[omegod]

Unlawful killing , Justice at last for the families    

[Andy B]

At last 

[Andy B]

Just listening to the news ..... what a lieing tw4t Duckenfield was/is 

[TheBoy]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

[STEMO]

South Yorkshire's chief Constable has been suspended. This has still got legs. There's the small matter of compo to be sorted yet.

[TheBoy]

compo

And that's why it keeps getting drawn out, because some people expect a free lunch

[biggriffin]

compo

And that's why it keeps getting drawn out, because some people expect a free lunch

Agree with the above 100%, the families have always said they only wanted justice, let's see when the pound sign appears, if that is still true.

[raywilb]

tanked up yobs caused it , according to Maggies press secretary

[Bigron]

I'm with you, TB. "Unlawful killing" = Murder and obviously there was never any murderous intent on anyone's part. And all this after SUCH a long time........

Ron.

[Andy B]

.....

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.   .....

You're right, everybody makes mistakes. But he & the police then lied to try to cover their opps up ie statements altered etc. He'd started the lies before anyone had died ie fans had breached gate C ....... he'd just ordered it to be opened 

[STEMO]

There will be a lot of repercussions over this but, like most of these things, half of the culpable will be dead, incapable of standing trial or just past it in general. Once one of the toadies thinks they're going to cop the lot, they'll start telling the truth.

Far too late for a lot of relatives of the Liverpool supporters too.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

Maybe they didn't before the event, but after the event there was a conspiracy, an organised cover up and a wall of lies which didn't fall apart for over 25 years,and that was what the families fought to unvcover for all those years.
This started while the tragedy was unfolding and was organised from the top of the police force concerned and ran right through the ranks down to special constables, by pressure from their superiors to alter statements to lie about the people who had died, to perpetrate the perception that it was pretty much their own fault.
If a child of mine died in those circumstances I would hope that I would be brave, persistent and dogged enough to take on the establishment and not let up until their lies had been uncovered.
I admire the families for doing what they did, and I hope the officers involved spend years behind bars for the lies they told.

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

tanked up yobs caused it , according to Maggies press secretary

Because that's what the info supplied by the police told them at the time. 

[Andy B]

.....

Maybe they didn't before the event, but after the event there was a conspiracy, an organised cover up and a wall of lies which didn't fall apart for over 25 years,and that was what the families fought to unvcover for all those years.
This started while the tragedy was unfolding and was organised from the top of the police force concerned and ran right through the ranks down to special constables, by pressure from their superiors to alter statements to lie about the people who had died, to perpetrate the perception that it was pretty much their own fault.
If a child of mine died in those circumstances I would hope that I would be brave, persistent and dogged enough to take on the establishment and not let up until their lies had been uncovered.
I admire the families for doing what they did, and I hope the officers involved spend years behind bars for the lies they told.

exactly

[omegod]

.....

Maybe they didn't before the event, but after the event there was a conspiracy, an organised cover up and a wall of lies which didn't fall apart for over 25 years,and that was what the families fought to unvcover for all those years.
This started while the tragedy was unfolding and was organised from the top of the police force concerned and ran right through the ranks down to special constables, by pressure from their superiors to alter statements to lie about the people who had died, to perpetrate the perception that it was pretty much their own fault.
If a child of mine died in those circumstances I would hope that I would be brave, persistent and dogged enough to take on the establishment and not let up until their lies had been uncovered.
I admire the families for doing what they did, and I hope the officers involved spend years behind bars for the lies they told.

exactly

Bang on 

[2boxerdogs]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

.     




Agree entirely , a very tragic event but so are lots of other things.

[Andy B]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

.     




Agree entirely , a very tragic event but so are lots of other things.

but did others do their utmost to cover up their failings & dropped testicles

[omegod]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

.     


Agree entirely , a very tragic event but so are lots of other things.

but did others do their utmost to cover up their failings & dropped testicles

Like insisting on Dr's taking blood samples from still warm corpses,including kids ,to try and show they were all drunk

If you had been falsely collared for something and found out the coppers had changed the witness statements to implicate you you'd fight it wouldn't you ... how hard would you fight to clear the name of your dead child /brother/father who had been blamed for causing their own and others death by a corrupt authority just to cover their arse, till my last breath I would       

[BazaJT]

A few poor/incorrect decisions were made that day which added up to the tragedy unfolding.This would have been bad enough but they then compounded things terribly by all the lies/deceit.The families have fought for justice which now seems to be about to happen.They have always maintained it was solely about the justice aspect but now I hear a figure of £19M in compo being bandied about

[2boxerdogs]

Yes wondered when compo would be mentioned , cash could solve the problem as usual. Thought right from the start that was what all the whinging was about.

[biggriffin]

Yes wondered when compo would be mentioned , cash could solve the problem as usual. Thought right from the start that was what all the whinging was about.

And with Michael Manson QC, on board. 

[Andy B]

Yes wondered when compo would be mentioned , cash could solve the problem as usual. Thought right from the start that was what all the whinging was about.

£19000000/96 = <£200k or your loved one that was killed due to the ineptitude of others that then tried to pin the blame on anyone else but themselves?

[omegod]

Yes wondered when compo would be mentioned , cash could solve the problem as usual. Thought right from the start that was what all the whinging was about.

£19000000/96 = <£200k or your loved one that was killed due to the ineptitude of others that then tried to pin the blame on anyone else but themselves?

It's not just me who's struggling to get peoples lack of understanding then Andy.

Would you mind Tilbo if I popped round your house and subjected your loved ones to a horrific agonising death, squeezing the last breath from them. Don't worry though fella,,,,keep smiling,,, after 27 years of grief and anger at me i'll drop a carrier bag round with 200k in it ?..you're a complete and utter prick!

[2boxerdogs]

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

[Viral_Jim]

I think this is a difficult one to call, yes, the actual event probably wasn't anyone's fault, poor decision making based on bad and incomplete information. I don't believe anyone should be held culpable for that.

However.

The cover-up is utterly unforgivable. To try and lay the blame at the door of the innocent dead. 

I'm pretty anti the compo culture in the UK but this has rumbled on and on. It must have consumed the lives of those left behind, and all because no one would stand up and be honest. For that, I think they should be compensated and £200k a pop is pretty small beer for the time, effort and happiness they've given up. That's what should be compensated for, not the deaths themselves, what the relatives have needlessly had to go through.

[STEMO]

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

I concur with Jon...you are a condescending prick.

[biggriffin]

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

Agree with the above. But this is now GB-plc 21st century, and somebody has to be accountable, (blame culture).
Accident's don't happen any more, it's always somebody's fault.

[STEMO]

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

Agree with the above. But this is now GB-plc 21st century, and somebody has to be accountable, (blame culture).
Accident's don't happen any more, it's always somebody's fault.

Are you stupid? Don't answer that.

It's not all about the events of the day, it's about the lies and cover up afterwards. If it was an accident, why go to such lengths to hide the facts for over twenty years?
Oh, and GB-Plc 21st century's problem is that every idiot in the country has access to the Internet which causes them to make foolish comments on subjects they know very little about.

[STEMO]

And another thing...of course this kind of investigation would only happen in 21st century Britain, because before that time the bent bastards would have got away Scott free because no one challenged people in authority. Thank god they do now.

[2boxerdogs]

Human nature to lie if you think you might just get away with it & if we are honest we have all done it at one time or another, hopefully without any lost lives.I can speak from experience having made a decision once which could have gone very badly wrong, at the disciplinary hearing I owned up  , the look of amazement on my superiors faces was easy to see .Fortunately common sense prevailed & in fact one of the board admitted he would have probably done the same, we are human we don't know what  the next few moments could bring but we must deal with it immediately.

[Field Marshal Dr. Opti]

It started off like any other day then grave errors were made. We are all human, we all f*ck up. Sadly this time the consequences proved fatal.

It is 27 years of lies, lies, and more lies  that is unforgivable.

[Bigron]

The mendacity of the police and others in authority is indeed the significant issue here and there are more and more examples of this coming to light - remember "Plebgate"?
I'm guessing that we know about only a few of the cases where deceit and falsification of evidence has taken place , leading to miscarrieges of justice.
Sorry to all the officers on here, but if you can't trust the police, whom can you trust?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ron.

[TheBoy]

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame 

Maybe they didn't before the event, but after the event there was a conspiracy, an organised cover up and a wall of lies which didn't fall apart for over 25 years,and that was what the families fought to unvcover for all those years.
This started while the tragedy was unfolding and was organised from the top of the police force concerned and ran right through the ranks down to special constables, by pressure from their superiors to alter statements to lie about the people who had died, to perpetrate the perception that it was pretty much their own fault.
If a child of mine died in those circumstances I would hope that I would be brave, persistent and dogged enough to take on the establishment and not let up until their lies had been uncovered.
I admire the families for doing what they did, and I hope the officers involved spend years behind bars for the lies they told.

I am, of course, talking about the incident that caused those 96 to be killed.  People did what what they thought was right on the day, and no doubt with some apprehension in facing up to fans - remember we were at the height of UK football hooliganism.

The force's primary safety goal IS the protection of its own people, same as any other organisation. Everyone needs to understand, accept and get over that.  Second consideration is safety of the public, and then everything else is lower priority.

I have no reason with the information that seems to be publically available to think that individuals did not do hat they thought was best on the day.  So, unlawful killing seems to be a verdict reached under duress.  Its clear the venue was unstuiable for the event, but I don't see the FA being dragged into this, as the unruly crowds of vigilantes know the "authorities" must always be to blame.


This is an entirely different topic to the subsequent cover-ups, which the prolonged pressure on is to serve one aim - financial gain. As no admission along the lines of "we did what we thought was right at the time, but with hindsight maybe things could be better" would bring the 96 back.  I agree that those responsible for covering up the truth (if it was clearly to protect themselves, rather than a matter of wider security) should be questioned...   ...but that isn't what this is about, is it? I know it, you know it, my mum's dog knows it.

[2boxerdogs]

Very well put TB.

[tigers_gonads]

I'm not going to go too deep into this but a quick question for those scousers and those who are Liverpool fans.

It is well documented that the F.A opps up with the choice of grounds and the ticketing.
Its also well documented that the police and emergency services on duty that day oppsed up so badly that 96 INOCENT people was crushed to death 

The question is .............

Was any Liverpool fans in or around that ground on that day responsible in any way for causing those deaths and if so, why haven't they put there hands up and apologised to the family's of the deceased ?

[STEMO]

I agree that 'unlawful killing' is the wrong verdict, criminal negligence or corporate manslaugter maybe.

[X30XE]

A little song, by The Eagles...

"Get Over It"

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it

#zero-fooks-given.

[LC0112G]

I agree that 'unlawful killing' is the wrong verdict, criminal negligence or corporate manslaugter maybe.

Neither of the verdicts you suggest are available at a Coroners Inquest. see here : http://www.inquest.org.uk/help/handbook/section-4-3-verdicts

The role of the Coroner is to establish the cause/causes of death, not to establish exactly who was to blame or to bring charges against 'the guilty'. The available verdicts in this case appear to have been :

• accident / misadventure
• disaster which is the subject of a public inquiry
• lawful killing
• unlawful killing

If the jury decides that a third party had a part to play in the persons death then unlawful killing is the correct verdict.
 

[omegod]

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

Agree with the above. But this is now GB-plc 21st century, and somebody has to be accountable, (blame culture).
Accident's don't happen any more, it's always somebody's fault.

Sorry ..please accept a first class reservation in pricksville along with Tilbo ! The authorities ( both the police we all trust and pay for + the government ) tried their best to transfer what accountability they had onto the general public who were simply attending a football game. They police could have done better......they didn't admit to this but squirmed and blamed people who were owed a duty of care and continued to lie throughout a legal process . It's been decided by a jury after the longest inquest in British legal history so go suck it up.

One case in particular that strikes me is 2 kids who's dad went to that game ,and was sadly killed, they had no family in the entire world who could look after them and ended up in state care for the rest of their adolescent years. I'm sure the £100k they each may ( not guranteed and at this point total hearsay ) receive will make their lives absolutely honkyoppsingdory.

All of a sudden pound signs appear !!! 27 yrs bud 
       

[LC0112G]

I think those who believe this is all about 'compo' and missing the point by a very long way. For the justice system to work in this country, the police have to be trusted and seen to be acting impartially and fairly. In court and at inquiries they should be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In this case they have failed spectacularly to do so.

1) They lied to the press, resulting in the Sun and others printing incorrect and offensive stories blaming the fans
2) They lied to the Government, resulting in senior politicians including Margaret Thatcher blaming the fans
3) They 'sanitised' statements from their own officers - In my book that's Conspiracy to Pervert the course of justice - up to 4 years in Jail.
4) They lied to the original inquest and subsequent inquiries - That's Perjury carrying up to 7 year in Jail.
5) The West Midlands police then failed to uncover these failings in their subsequent investigations.  Why? Incompetance of Collusion?

Once the relatives of the dead realised that 1) and 2) had occurred it is entirely understandable that they would fight to get the truth told. The shame here is that it took 27 years for the police to come clean. I'm not a fan of the current compensation culture, but, if you've had to fight for 27 years to clear the name of your loved ones, chances are you've lost all respect for those that have lied to you and will think sod-em. I'm angry at what happened, and I've no direct connection with anyone involved. I can only imagine how disillusioned with the justice system that those directly affected are.

3) and 4) mean that those responsible should be going to jail for a long time. There is nothing worse than a bent copper, and that's what they are. I'm not convinced anyone will ever go to jail though.

Compo? Perhaps it's justified in some cases. But that isn't what this is all about. Never was, never will be.

[TheBoy]

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

[Andy B]

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

[TheBoy]

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

But the inquest, or at least my understanding of it after ignoring the sensationalist media, was an inquest into their deaths? 

[2boxerdogs]

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

.     








Fully agree with this a witch hunt to which there will be no satisfactory solution , jail sentences, cash , will not serve any purpose whatsoever, better training for major incidents which now does take place will help but no disaster is textbook & someone will make a decision & face criticism damned if you do damned if you don't .

[LC0112G]

This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

.     

If anything deserves to be a witch hunt, this is it. The police altered evidence, and then lied under oath about it. Not once, not twice but many many times. What's the point of a police force you can't trust? They defamed the deceased which played havoc with the memories the relatives had of them.

No it won't bring any of the 96 back, but at least the relatives now know how and why their sons/daughters/husbands/wives died, and that they were in no way to blame for events that day. The next step is that either the people responsible for the lies are prosecuted, or all police risk being treated like the scum these officers are/were. It IS that important for many people.

However, if the Met can order armed officers onto a tube train to kill an innocent unarmed foreigner and get away with only being charged under the Health and Safety act I'm not going to hold my breath over this.

[2boxerdogs]

Just like to point out the previous post is wrong it was not my post ,just one I agreed with.

[omegod]

I think those who believe this is all about 'compo' and missing the point by a very long way. For the justice system to work in this country, the police have to be trusted and seen to be acting impartially and fairly. In court and at inquiries they should be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In this case they have failed spectacularly to do so.

1) They lied to the press, resulting in the Sun and others printing incorrect and offensive stories blaming the fans
2) They lied to the Government, resulting in senior politicians including Margaret Thatcher blaming the fans
3) They 'sanitised' statements from their own officers - In my book that's Conspiracy to Pervert the course of justice - up to 4 years in Jail.
4) They lied to the original inquest and subsequent inquiries - That's Perjury carrying up to 7 year in Jail.
5) The West Midlands police then failed to uncover these failings in their subsequent investigations.  Why? Incompetance of Collusion?

Once the relatives of the dead realised that 1) and 2) had occurred it is entirely understandable that they would fight to get the truth told. The shame here is that it took 27 years for the police to come clean. I'm not a fan of the current compensation culture, but, if you've had to fight for 27 years to clear the name of your loved ones, chances are you've lost all respect for those that have lied to you and will think sod-em. I'm angry at what happened, and I've no direct connection with anyone involved. I can only imagine how disillusioned with the justice system that those directly affected are.

3) and 4) mean that those responsible should be going to jail for a long time. There is nothing worse than a bent copper, and that's what they are. I'm not convinced anyone will ever go to jail though.

Compo? Perhaps it's justified in some cases. But that isn't what this is all about. Never was, never will be.

I couldn't have said it better, thank's,

 Omegod

For the naysayers:


An interesting read

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany