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Author Topic: Hillsborough verdict  (Read 6054 times)

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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #30 on: 29 April 2016, 12:13:22 »

It started off like any other day then grave errors were made. We are all human, we all f*ck up. Sadly this time the consequences proved fatal.

It is 27 years of lies, lies, and more lies  that is unforgivable. :-\



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Bigron

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #31 on: 29 April 2016, 12:33:37 »

The mendacity of the police and others in authority is indeed the significant issue here and there are more and more examples of this coming to light - remember "Plebgate"?
I'm guessing that we know about only a few of the cases where deceit and falsification of evidence has taken place , leading to miscarrieges of justice.
Sorry to all the officers on here, but if you can't trust the police, whom can you trust?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ron.
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TheBoy

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #32 on: 30 April 2016, 11:06:03 »

Sorry to sound heartless, but it was bloody ages ago, and no real good can come of it now.

Nobody did anything on purpose, people - rightly or wrongly - did what they thought was best as they could see it unfold.  Lets face it, the root cause was the venue was unsuitable.  But in todays sad society, there has to be blame  >:(

Maybe they didn't before the event, but after the event there was a conspiracy, an organised cover up and a wall of lies which didn't fall apart for over 25 years,and that was what the families fought to unvcover for all those years.
This started while the tragedy was unfolding and was organised from the top of the police force concerned and ran right through the ranks down to special constables, by pressure from their superiors to alter statements to lie about the people who had died, to perpetrate the perception that it was pretty much their own fault.
If a child of mine died in those circumstances I would hope that I would be brave, persistent and dogged enough to take on the establishment and not let up until their lies had been uncovered.
I admire the families for doing what they did, and I hope the officers involved spend years behind bars for the lies they told.
I am, of course, talking about the incident that caused those 96 to be killed.  People did what what they thought was right on the day, and no doubt with some apprehension in facing up to fans - remember we were at the height of UK football hooliganism.

The force's primary safety goal IS the protection of its own people, same as any other organisation. Everyone needs to understand, accept and get over that.  Second consideration is safety of the public, and then everything else is lower priority.

I have no reason with the information that seems to be publically available to think that individuals did not do hat they thought was best on the day.  So, unlawful killing seems to be a verdict reached under duress.  Its clear the venue was unstuiable for the event, but I don't see the FA being dragged into this, as the unruly crowds of vigilantes know the "authorities" must always be to blame.


This is an entirely different topic to the subsequent cover-ups, which the prolonged pressure on is to serve one aim - financial gain. As no admission along the lines of "we did what we thought was right at the time, but with hindsight maybe things could be better" would bring the 96 back.  I agree that those responsible for covering up the truth (if it was clearly to protect themselves, rather than a matter of wider security) should be questioned...   ...but that isn't what this is about, is it? I know it, you know it, my mum's dog knows it.
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Grumpy old man

2boxerdogs

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #33 on: 30 April 2016, 11:27:09 »

Very well put TB.
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tigers_gonads

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #34 on: 30 April 2016, 12:03:46 »

I'm not going to go too deep into this but a quick question for those scousers and those who are Liverpool fans.

It is well documented that the F.A opps up with the choice of grounds and the ticketing.
Its also well documented that the police and emergency services on duty that day oppsed up so badly that 96 INOCENT people was crushed to death  :(

The question is .............

Was any Liverpool fans in or around that ground on that day responsible in any way for causing those deaths and if so, why haven't they put there hands up and apologised to the family's of the deceased ?
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STEMO

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #35 on: 30 April 2016, 12:28:58 »

I agree that 'unlawful killing' is the wrong verdict, criminal negligence or corporate manslaugter maybe.
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X30XE

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #36 on: 30 April 2016, 13:33:10 »

A little song, by The Eagles...
"Get Over It"

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' "Don't blame me"
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, Get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it




#zero-fooks-given.
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LC0112G

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #37 on: 01 May 2016, 17:10:50 »

I agree that 'unlawful killing' is the wrong verdict, criminal negligence or corporate manslaugter maybe.

Neither of the verdicts you suggest are available at a Coroners Inquest. see here : http://www.inquest.org.uk/help/handbook/section-4-3-verdicts

The role of the Coroner is to establish the cause/causes of death, not to establish exactly who was to blame or to bring charges against 'the guilty'. The available verdicts in this case appear to have been :

• accident / misadventure
• disaster which is the subject of a public inquiry
• lawful killing
• unlawful killing

If the jury decides that a third party had a part to play in the persons death then unlawful killing is the correct verdict.
 
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omegod

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #38 on: 01 May 2016, 21:55:37 »

Whoa someone has dropped their dolly, a very tragic event as I said earlier but all of a sudden £ signs appear.  What will that do bring them back ? Suspend people change the name of the Police Force , it was an accident that no one could forsee, it was not done with intent , but let's blame someone .

Agree with the above. But this is now GB-plc 21st century, and somebody has to be accountable, (blame culture).
Accident's don't happen any more, it's always somebody's fault.

Sorry ..please accept a first class reservation in pricksville along with Tilbo ! The authorities ( both the police we all trust and pay for + the government ) tried their best to transfer what accountability they had onto the general public who were simply attending a football game. They police could have done better......they didn't admit to this but squirmed and blamed people who were owed a duty of care and continued to lie throughout a legal process . It's been decided by a jury after the longest inquest in British legal history so go suck it up.

One case in particular that strikes me is 2 kids who's dad went to that game ,and was sadly killed, they had no family in the entire world who could look after them and ended up in state care for the rest of their adolescent years. I'm sure the £100k they each may ( not guranteed and at this point total hearsay ) receive will make their lives absolutely honkyoppsingdory.

All of a sudden pound signs appear !!! 27 yrs bud 
       
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LC0112G

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #39 on: 01 May 2016, 23:15:20 »

I think those who believe this is all about 'compo' and missing the point by a very long way. For the justice system to work in this country, the police have to be trusted and seen to be acting impartially and fairly. In court and at inquiries they should be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. In this case they have failed spectacularly to do so.

1) They lied to the press, resulting in the Sun and others printing incorrect and offensive stories blaming the fans
2) They lied to the Government, resulting in senior politicians including Margaret Thatcher blaming the fans
3) They 'sanitised' statements from their own officers - In my book that's Conspiracy to Pervert the course of justice - up to 4 years in Jail.
4) They lied to the original inquest and subsequent inquiries - That's Perjury carrying up to 7 year in Jail.
5) The West Midlands police then failed to uncover these failings in their subsequent investigations.  Why? Incompetance of Collusion?

Once the relatives of the dead realised that 1) and 2) had occurred it is entirely understandable that they would fight to get the truth told. The shame here is that it took 27 years for the police to come clean. I'm not a fan of the current compensation culture, but, if you've had to fight for 27 years to clear the name of your loved ones, chances are you've lost all respect for those that have lied to you and will think sod-em. I'm angry at what happened, and I've no direct connection with anyone involved. I can only imagine how disillusioned with the justice system that those directly affected are.

3) and 4) mean that those responsible should be going to jail for a long time. There is nothing worse than a bent copper, and that's what they are. I'm not convinced anyone will ever go to jail though.

Compo? Perhaps it's justified in some cases. But that isn't what this is all about. Never was, never will be.
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TheBoy

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #40 on: 02 May 2016, 10:39:34 »

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.
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Andy B

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #41 on: 02 May 2016, 10:47:03 »

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.

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TheBoy

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #42 on: 02 May 2016, 11:02:01 »

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.
But the inquest, or at least my understanding of it after ignoring the sensationalist media, was an inquest into their deaths?  ;)
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Grumpy old man

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #43 on: 02 May 2016, 14:43:01 »

I guess it depends on exactly what we are talking about, as suggested earlier. Are we talking about what happened on the day, and could lives have been saved, or are we talking about any subsequent events, including cover-ups?  They are 2 entirely separate things.  Or should we go back further and ask why that venue was used - as a challenge at the time could have saved those 96...


This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.
.     








Fully agree with this a witch hunt to which there will be no satisfactory solution , jail sentences, cash , will not serve any purpose whatsoever, better training for major incidents which now does take place will help but no disaster is textbook & someone will make a decision & face criticism damned if you do damned if you don't .



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LC0112G

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Re: Hillsborough verdict
« Reply #44 on: 02 May 2016, 18:51:02 »

This is simply a witch hunt, because we live in a society that says there must be blame with anything (not necessarily a bad thing for future learning, *IF* its not about money (which in itself will lead to misinformation)).  Nothing can come of this.
.     

If anything deserves to be a witch hunt, this is it. The police altered evidence, and then lied under oath about it. Not once, not twice but many many times. What's the point of a police force you can't trust? They defamed the deceased which played havoc with the memories the relatives had of them.

No it won't bring any of the 96 back, but at least the relatives now know how and why their sons/daughters/husbands/wives died, and that they were in no way to blame for events that day. The next step is that either the people responsible for the lies are prosecuted, or all police risk being treated like the scum these officers are/were. It IS that important for many people.

However, if the Met can order armed officers onto a tube train to kill an innocent unarmed foreigner and get away with only being charged under the Health and Safety act I'm not going to hold my breath over this.
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