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Author Topic: EU referendum debate - Who knew?  (Read 9852 times)

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Sir Tigger KC

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EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« on: 27 April 2016, 11:54:59 »

The Spectator magazine organised a debate on Britain's membership of the EU last night at The Palladium in London in front of an 2200 strong audience. In the line up were Dan Hannan, Nigel Farage and Kate Hoey arguing for leaving and Nick Clegg, Liz Kendall and Chukka Umunna for remaining in the EU.  Andrew Neil chaired the debate. 

Given that this is the biggest decision that the British people have been asked to vote on for a generation, why was this not televised? and I havn't seen any mention of this debate anywhere else in the media.  :-\  I've never read The Spectator so I have no idea of its political leanings or the make up of the audience.  ::)

Even so you'd think that this debate would have been reported?  ???  ::)

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/live-from-the-london-palladium-the-spectators-brexit-debate/

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Sir Tigger KC

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #1 on: 27 April 2016, 12:09:26 »

Ah.... Turns out Boris Johnson is a former editor of The Spectator, so that answers any queries about the magazines political leanings and make up of the audience!  ;D 

No surprises then that the BBC havn't reported the debate....  ::)  Even so, with senior politicians like Clegg, Kendall, and Umunna arguing for Britain's membership of the EU you'd think it would be worthy of mention?  :-\
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Varche

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #2 on: 27 April 2016, 14:00:49 »

mmm.

I tune into Sky News from time to time. Have to laugh at one regular item that debunks the myths. e.g. Laws from Brussels.

Out claim something like 82%
In claim something like 12%

Actual was between 33 and 35% (still a hellava lot).  If only each side would quote reality rather than stretching it.
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Migalot

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #3 on: 27 April 2016, 14:33:38 »

I wouldn't believe Sky on anything, TBH.  ;)

The best research I have found comes from Business for Britain, which comes in at 64.7 per cent.

http://businessforbritain.org/2015/03/02/definitive-study-reveals-eu-rules-account-for-65-of-uk-law/
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Steve B

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #4 on: 27 April 2016, 17:55:30 »

If you look at both Sky & the BBC on how they report and put over this IN/OUT argument It is clear to see that they both want IN  :y

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Viral_Jim

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #5 on: 27 April 2016, 18:05:45 »

I wouldn't believe Sky on anything, TBH.  ;)

The best research I have found comes from Business for Britain, which comes in at 64.7 per cent.

http://businessforbritain.org/2015/03/02/definitive-study-reveals-eu-rules-account-for-65-of-uk-law/

Yes, a study commissioned by a vote leave group. Can't imagine what would be unbalanced about that.  ::)

Depends on your definition of best I suppose.
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Migalot

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #6 on: 27 April 2016, 22:24:09 »

I wouldn't believe Sky on anything, TBH.  ;)

The best research I have found comes from Business for Britain, which comes in at 64.7 per cent.

http://businessforbritain.org/2015/03/02/definitive-study-reveals-eu-rules-account-for-65-of-uk-law/

Yes, a study commissioned by a vote leave group. Can't imagine what would be unbalanced about that.  ::)

Depends on your definition of best I suppose.

Well, just point out where they're wrong and I'll believe you.

P.S. Remainers are bonkers.  ;)
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Big Rod

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #7 on: 27 April 2016, 23:21:48 »

This is a carbon copy of the Scottish independence thing.

I hear the same 'soundbites', words and arguments going around and around.

It's like Groundhog day for us north of the border.
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Andy B

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #8 on: 27 April 2016, 23:34:03 »

This is a carbon copy of the Scottish independence thing.

I hear the same 'soundbites', words and arguments going around and around.

It's like Groundhog day for us north of the border.

And you've yet to get another chance to vote for the right result ..........  ::) ::)
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Viral_Jim

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2016, 07:37:07 »

Quote
Well, just point out where they're wrong and I'll believe you.

"Wrong" is a very subjective term. The numbers they get from their searches of EUR-Lex (on which their percentage is based) are different from those produced by fullfact.org - who apparently used the same search terms. Fullfact are a non-partisan not-for-profit site who fact check a number of different media claims. However that only accounts for a shift from about 65% to about 60%.

BfB also acknowledge that a load of laws e.g. those governing tobacco or olive growing don't affect us - but they include them anyway. I have no doubt that if they were in the Remain camp these would have been excluded for being "irrelevant" which they are.

Quote
P.S. Remainers are bonkers.  ;)

Really, you do realise being on team "Brexit" stands you with Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Katie Hopkins don't you? - I'm comfortable being on the opposing team  ;D


In truth, what actually bothers me about all this is that its a decision which is being argued by people in their 40's and 50's and being decided by them and the older generations (they account for the greatest percentage of voters, which is particularly relevant in lower turnout elections). However the mess an exit would create will be sorted out by those in their 20's and 30's.

Yet another example (along with house building and state pensions) where the baby boomer generation are saddling the younger generations with a big mess and expense to sort out.

People get so excited about 3 things when it comes to the EU referendum - "Immigrants", "How much money the EU costs us" and "They make x% of our laws" which funnily enough are just about the 3 least important things in the whole debate. However, what they are is easy to understand, you can put numbers on them, so people fixate.
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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #10 on: 28 April 2016, 09:57:51 »

By far the most important aspect of the debate is democracy & sovereignty. These have been eroded & given away by politicians who had no right or permission to give them away. That is why they have lied to the population over and over again for over 40 years.
That alone to me, is an inarguable reason for Brexit.
Personalities have nothing to do with it. There are quite a few people with questionable personality traits on both sides of the debate.
You may not qualify as "bonkers" just by being in the remain camp, but you really would have to be bonkers to believe a word Cameron says. He couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it.
He is in the process of pulling exactly the same con trick that Wilson pulled in the 1970,s.
I would recommend that everyone who intends voting, fire up BBC iplayer and watch Nick Robinsons "Them & us."
It is reasonably objective for the BBC, and gives a lot of historical facts on the subject, by those who were involved at the time.  :y
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Migalot

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #11 on: 28 April 2016, 10:18:53 »


Quote
P.S. Remainers are bonkers.  ;)

Really, you do realise being on team "Brexit" stands you with Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Katie Hopkins don't you? - I'm comfortable being on the opposing team  ;D


In truth, what actually bothers me about all this is that its a decision which is being argued by people in their 40's and 50's and being decided by them and the older generations (they account for the greatest percentage of voters, which is particularly relevant in lower turnout elections). However the mess an exit would create will be sorted out by those in their 20's and 30's.

If you base your views on the EU on the basis on personalities, then you have already lost the argument in my view. Incidentally, why don't you mention the names of Dan Hannan, Jacob Ress-Mogg or even Ian Botham. Doesn't fit your meme, I guess.

As for your ageist comments the older generation, that's just piffle. As, too, is your assertion that Brexit would "create a mess", which only the young could sort out.

If you really want to be run by big banks, corporates and all the other vested establishment interests (see TTIP) that want to enlarge the EU further and further to scrap national identities and local democracy, while creating a huge low-wage super society which will anyway collapse in bloody civil war, then go ahead and vote Remain like all the other useful lefties that can't see the wood for the trees (and big business loves you all!).
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Viral_Jim

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #12 on: 28 April 2016, 11:01:04 »

Quote
If you base your views on the EU on the basis on personalities, then you have already lost the argument in my view

I don't. I just thought I would match the banality of your comment about the state of mind of anyone wishing to remain.  ::).

I base it on the 30 plus years of relative prosperity the UK has enjoyed as part of the EU. The 30 years which have incidentally most benefited the groups most wanting to leave ie. the older generation. The ramifications of leaving the EU will last decades, long after most of those that argue for it will be tucked up at home on their civil service pensions (see below). Conversely, the people in their 20's and 30's are most likely to lose out from a Brexit as they typically have the less job security compared to those with more experience.

Perhaps the biggest lie in all of this debate is the idea that trade deals can be hammered out nice and neatly and we'll all be home by Christmas for tea and medals. The structure of the EU is designed to put the leaving party at a massive disadvantage, according to the terms of the EU treaties, if we want a trade deal, we would have to get unanimous agreement on certain points from all other member states. If we don't manage it within 2yrs, we are then on the standard WTO Tariff rules until we strike a deal. How much do you think we'll have to give away to get the job done? Sure, we can leverage against our big trading partners like Germany et al, but we also need agreement from the likes of Poland, Italy etc. who have just lost a chunk of funding by us leaving. Something tells me they'll want quite a package from us!

Then we have to make separate deals with other trading partners - notably the USA. 

Quote
As for your ageist comments the older generation, that's just piffle. As, too, is your assertion that Brexit would "create a mess", which only the young could sort out.

Why so? they are the generation that failed (until recently) to adjust retirement ages and pension benefits in line with increasing ages. Such that we now have a generation who will on average be retired for 30 plus years. Many on index linked Defined Benefit pensions, even those that aren't are the only social group not to be affected by austerity (benefiting as they do from the triple lock) while accounting for over 40% of the country's total welfare spend, while also accounting for the largest proportion of NHS spending.  People in their 20's and 30's now will be the first generation in British history who will have to fund both their own retirement and that of the generation before.

They are also the generation who were able to buy new-build houses at cheap prices (compared to wages) but are most likely to block new-build developments  which would shift the balance of housing demand/supply so that younger generations can enjoy the same. Because it will "devalue their homes" or "spoil their countryside".

These points are not ageism, they are statements about how the Baby-Boomer generation was too good to itself and Generations X & Y will have to pick up the tab. The problem of course is that pensioners account for the greatest number of voters and therefore hold the balance of political power. Intergenerational unfairness in the UK is well documented, and has been confirmed by IFS studies. Or piffle as you would say.

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like all the other useful lefties that can't see the wood for the trees (and big business loves you all!).

On this point you genuinely could not be more wrong;D I'm the archetypical hard hearted Right Winger - public school educated, russel group university, blue chip employer. Don't mistake me for someone who's lost out somehow and blames my failings on the previous generation(s). I'm just able to see past all the psuedo-nationalist posturing about how Great a nation we are and how the world will fall over itself to do deals with us and how the EU is stealing our identity yadda yadda yadda.
 
« Last Edit: 28 April 2016, 11:08:29 by jimmy944 »
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Varche

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2016, 11:18:11 »

Spot on about this is a vote not for today ( I hear fellow expats saying I am going to vote Remain because the exchange rate will go back up and my Uk pension will be worth more.) but for the future 40 , 50 years time. So we are in effect voting for our children or grandchildren, not ourselves. The key question is surely do you want your own democracy or do you want someone else in Brussels to do it for you?

Prosperity post war? Well it is true that many countries have seen great prosperity since the war. Especially those helped out by the Yanks after the war with the Marshall Plan. That sadly didn't extend to us Brits who the Yanks judged had had more than enough of their help during the war. So it is all the more remarkable that Britain became prosperous against other European economies that had new infrastructure.

The Spanish see no bad in the EU. They have gone from a poor country with little infrastructure to a richer one with a road and rail network and everyone has a new car instead of a Mule. They are obsessed at the moment with corruption in high places and the EU and the UK are not exempt from that. The difference is that in Spain a politician actually receives under the table cash for facilitating a deal. In the UK the politicians family member gets a sweet contract.
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Migalot

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Re: EU referendum debate - Who knew?
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2016, 11:54:57 »

Then we have to make separate deals with other trading partners - notably the USA. 
Quote
The EU has never had a trade deal with America, nor have we. Yet trade between the EU and the US, and British trade with America – with whom we have no trade deal – has grown, whereas British trade with the EU, despite the single market, has fallen. Trade matters more than trade agreements.

...they are the generation that failed (until recently) to adjust retirement ages and pension benefits in line with increasing ages. Such that we now have a generation who will on average be retired for 30 plus years. Many on index linked Defined Benefit pensions, even those that aren't are the only social group not to be affected by austerity (benefiting as they do from the triple lock) while accounting for over 40% of the country's total welfare spend, while also accounting for the largest proportion of NHS spending.  People in their 20's and 30's now will be the first generation in British history who will have to fund both their own retirement and that of the generation before.
Quote
Lumping everyone over 40 as "the generation that failed" is ridiculous. Was I responsible for Gordon Brown’s raid on pensions in 1997, which is now costing taxpayers nearly £10bn a year? Several chancellors have screwed the pensions system over the years — don't try and hold me responsible! My voice in the upcoming referendum is just as valid as yours, lad. 

...the Baby-Boomer generation was too good to itself and Generations X & Y will have to pick up the tab. The problem of course is that pensioners account for the greatest number of voters and therefore hold the balance of political power. Intergenerational unfairness in the UK is well documented, and has been confirmed by IFS studies. Or piffle as you would say.
Quote

We were too good to ourselves? Oh, please. Let me travel back in time 30yrs and refuse to buy my house so that you won't need to whinge.

And what about the huge increase in immigration that has come about with the expansion of the EU. Oh, yes, that has no effect on housing, schools, NHS etc., does it? And you want to vote for more (since the EU is pressing ahead with accession for Turkey, Serbia, Albania etc. etc.)?     

Quote
like all the other useful lefties that can't see the wood for the trees (and big business loves you all!).

On this point you genuinely could not be more wrong;D I'm the archetypical hard hearted Right Winger - public school educated, russel group university, blue chip employer. Don't mistake me for someone who's lost out somehow and blames my failings on the previous generation(s). I'm just able to see past all the psuedo-nationalist posturing about how Great a nation we are and how the world will fall over itself to do deals with us and how the EU is stealing our identity yadda yadda yadda.

We ARE a great nation and we WILL be able to trade with which ever country we want. We are the 5th largest economy, so I can't see anyone refusing to do business with us. And, yes, the EU does want to get rid of nation states in favour of a single superstate. Please forgive me for wanting to remain British and for my children to grow up British.

yadda yadda yadda
Quote

Nice. ::) ::)

By the way, there is no apostrophe in "20s" and "30s" 
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