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[Viral_Jim]

Economists backing Brexit!

http://news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say

 

And in shock news, the 8-member group "Economists for Brexit" chose to back (drum roll please) BREXIT. Also -20pts for posting anything that appears on Sky News.

Weighed against these 8 chaps/ladies you have the IMF, OECD, oh and the last FT survey showed 76 economists surveyed thought Brexit would harm the uk with only 8 thinking Brexit would be good. I wonder who the 8 were...

[korum]

At the end of the day you can ridicule any of the reports posted because they are guess work no one knows what will happen if we stay or go.

The biggest problem is with the way the EU is run, the fat cats running it are not interested in the average joe in the street and only want to line there pockets with more €€€ and they cannot be shifted as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy 

So the way I see it is this,

Leave and continue to get shafted by some muppets that can be changed for more muppets every 5 years
or
Stay and get shafted by some muppets that cannot be changed.

[Rods2]

At the end of the day you can ridicule any of the reports posted because they are guess work no one knows what will happen if we stay or go.

The biggest problem is with the way the EU is run, the fat cats running it are not interested in the average joe in the street and only want to line there pockets with more €€€ and they cannot be shifted as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy 

So the way I see it is this,

Leave and continue to get shafted by some muppets that can be changed for more muppets every 5 years
or
Stay and get shafted by some muppets that cannot be changed.

By leaving we can stop paying the Brussels bureaucrats and subsidising most of the EU countries with our excessive membership fees.

[STEMO]

At the end of the day you can ridicule any of the reports posted because they are guess work no one knows what will happen if we stay or go.

The biggest problem is with the way the EU is run, the fat cats running it are not interested in the average joe in the street and only want to line there pockets with more €€€ and they cannot be shifted as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy 

So the way I see it is this,

Leave and continue to get shafted by some muppets that can be changed for more muppets every 5 years
or
Stay and get shafted by some muppets that cannot be changed.

Or....move to France and get given all the money donated by Britain.

[korum]

At the end of the day you can ridicule any of the reports posted because they are guess work no one knows what will happen if we stay or go.

The biggest problem is with the way the EU is run, the fat cats running it are not interested in the average joe in the street and only want to line there pockets with more €€€ and they cannot be shifted as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy 

So the way I see it is this,

Leave and continue to get shafted by some muppets that can be changed for more muppets every 5 years
or
Stay and get shafted by some muppets that cannot be changed.

By leaving we can stop paying the Brussels bureaucrats and subsidising most of the EU countries with our excessive membership fees.

True but it would just get wasted in some other area and we would still get shafted

At the end of the day you can ridicule any of the reports posted because they are guess work no one knows what will happen if we stay or go.

The biggest problem is with the way the EU is run, the fat cats running it are not interested in the average joe in the street and only want to line there pockets with more €€€ and they cannot be shifted as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy 

So the way I see it is this,

Leave and continue to get shafted by some muppets that can be changed for more muppets every 5 years
or
Stay and get shafted by some muppets that cannot be changed.

Or....move to France and get given all the money donated by Britain.

But then you would have to live with the french 

[Viral_Jim]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

By leaving we can stop paying the Brussels bureaucrats and subsidising most of the EU countries with our excessive membership fees.

Rods2: 2 of the 3 main credit rating agencies have said that a Brexit would likely mean that the UK's credit rating would be downgraded. The 3rd has said it would be a negative outlook for the UK, but has stopped short of mentioning a downgrade.  This would push up the cost of borrowing on our £1.55 Trillion debt and wipe out any "saving" we could expect from leaving the EU.  The "we leave and save ourself £Xbn per year" argument is a hugely over-simplified picture of what would happen.

[05omegav6]

That was St Georges Day but we haven't been allowed to celebrate it since the early '00s lest we should offend the Irish, Scots, or God forbid, the Welsh

The EU may well be on borrowed time, but I am not convinced that our leaving would be enough of a catalyst to bring it to an end

Any other countries having a similar referendum on the same day?

[korum]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

But that is not the same as the democracy of the people voting in politicians. That is fat cats scratching each other on the back so that it is their mates getting the job.

[05omegav6]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

But that is not the same as the democracy of the people voting in politicians. That is fat cats scratching each other on the back so that it is their mates getting the job.

Who do you think puts our politicians forward for election? Not you or I

[korum]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

But that is not the same as the democracy of the people voting in politicians. That is fat cats scratching each other on the back so that it is their mates getting the job.

Who do you think puts our politicians forward for election? Not you or I

No but at least we get the choice of which numpty gets to shaft us

[Sir Tigger KC]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

Democracy for me is where the leaders are directly elected by the people and where elections are held regularly so the people can get rid of leaders who are no good. 

The EU Commission which is an appointed body is not democratic as the people have no say in who is appointed. The European Parliament is democratic as MEP's are directly elected by the people, however the European Parliament is the only legislature in the world that dosn't actually legislate!    Go figure!! 

I take your point about the Queen and House of Lords, but in practice the Queen holds next to no power, and it is very rare for the House of Lords to send legislation back to the Commons.  They did recently, but I forget what it was about now.  Benefit cuts I think... 

New Labour had the opportunity to properly reform the House of Lords when they kicked out the Hereditary Peers, but like everything else they tinkered with, they did a half arsed job, so now we have a fully appointed Upper House! 

[05omegav6]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

But that is not the same as the democracy of the people voting in politicians. That is fat cats scratching each other on the back so that it is their mates getting the job.

Who do you think puts our politicians forward for election? Not you or I

No but at least we get the choice of which numpty gets to shaft us

If that helps you through the day, you carry on

[05omegav6]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

Democracy for me is where the leaders are directly elected by the people and where elections are held regularly so the people can get rid of leaders who are no good. 

The EU Commission which is an appointed body is not democratic as the people have no say in who is appointed. The European Parliament is democratic as MEP's are directly elected by the people, however the European Parliament is the only legislature in the world that dosn't actually legislate!    Go figure!! 

I take your point about the Queen and House of Lords, but in practice the Queen holds next to no power, and it is very rare for the House of Lords to send legislation back to the Commons.  They did recently, but I forget what it was about now.  Benefit cuts I think... 

New Labour had the opportunity to properly reform the House of Lords when they kicked out the Hereditary Peers, but like everything else they tinkered with, they did a half arsed job, so now we have a fully appointed Upper House! 

Is the EU really any different in any other Union... namely the US, Canada or Australia?

[korum]

as there is no election process it's a dictatorship controlling a democracy

Korum, this is one point I have genuinely never understood, it seems to be so often repeated that people assume it to be true. When you look at the three main bodies involved in EU law making, they are all either directly elected by the member states, or nominated by the (democratically elected) heads of member states. In this sense, EU law making is more "democratic" than UK law, where technically the Queen & House of Lords (both definitely not democratically chosen) have the final say.

Democracy for me is where the leaders are directly elected by the people and where elections are held regularly so the people can get rid of leaders who are no good. 

The EU Commission which is an appointed body is not democratic as the people have no say in who is appointed. The European Parliament is democratic as MEP's are directly elected by the people, however the European Parliament is the only legislature in the world that dosn't actually legislate!    Go figure!! 

I take your point about the Queen and House of Lords, but in practice the Queen holds next to no power, and it is very rare for the House of Lords to send legislation back to the Commons.  They did recently, but I forget what it was about now.  Benefit cuts I think... 

New Labour had the opportunity to properly reform the House of Lords when they kicked out the Hereditary Peers, but like everything else they tinkered with, they did a half arsed job, so now we have a fully appointed Upper House! 

Is the EU really any different in any other Union... namely the US, Canada or Australia?

Not really only in terms of how their leaders are chosen which I thinks is one of the points of this discussion.

But speaking of USA if we stay in will we end up with some strange law situation like where Colorado has legalised weed yet it's still against federal law? I always thought federal trumped state yet they are selling weed out in the open now without anything being done.

[Viral_Jim]

But that is not the same as the democracy of the people voting in politicians.

#

Why not? Not everyone in the UK government is elected? The house of Lords is full of people who were (a) made lords by some politician deciding they were lords (Blair "made"  16 new lords while he was in - for example) or (b) are Lords because their parents were Lords. Civil servants are not voted in, but they still draft legislation.

In the EU there are 3 bodies which have an input into law:

The Comission
These people draft the laws, write reports etc (same role as civil servants in the UK), they are nominated from a shortlist provided by their respective heads of state (1 commissioner per country). Pretty much exactly how civil servants are chosen, only somewhat more transparent as we can see who was on the shortlist - if you're sad enough to look.

The Parliament
These are directly elected by member states. For example we elected Farage (for me a prime example of the failure of the democratic process  ). This body must sign-off on any law drafted by the commission before it can be adopted into law in the member states. Like the House of Commons does for the UK.

The Council
This is made up of the head of state of each EU country, or a cabinet minister depending on the area being discussed. They must also sign-off on all EU law before it is adopted - similar to the House of Lords but elected - ie we voted for ours.

I fail to see any meaningful difference between the way we (in the UK) make law and the way the EU does.

EDIT: Sir Tig, I'm not sure what you mean about the EU parliament not legislating? The House of Commons doesn't either? Laws are drafted by somebody's civil servant and then voted on???