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[wildhog70]

Hi all. I am at my wits end. Under braking Car dives left at the scenery. Now trust me everything has been chacked that I know of. Bushes replaced, arms etc. The car has been of the road most of the year. Two mechanics have given up and a third now at the end too.

However on watching the car when the car is braked the front left wheel moves back and in.

Strangely when left for a while the car is actually ok not great but better that before, then on the third or fourth pump of the brakes the car starts this behaviour.

There has been full caliper strip. Calipers replaced, lines replaced, fluid replaced, master cylinder replaced, lines checked for equal presure(when stationary) so I believe its the brakes but dont know where else to look.

Any ideas!

[Andy B]

....
However on watching the car when the car is braked the front left wheel moves back and in. ....
Any ideas!

That sounds like bushes ...... whose wishbones did you use?  :-/

[Entwood]

....
However on watching the car when the car is braked the front left wheel moves back and in. ....
Any ideas!

That sounds like bushes ...... whose wishbones did you use?  :-/

If it's not wishbones it is definately something mechanical ... wheels should not move under braking !!!

Stick your location in your profile .. you might live near someone who can help

[wildhog70]

Thanks but not bushes. They have been replaced three times. 2xoriginal vauxhall and the last set with powerflex. Its the obvious one to go for but its not curing it. two new arms fitted. Discs also swapped. If the brakes are pulling on one side more than the other surely the weight of the car will cause the wheel to move back and tuck if its not being compensated by the other side. I have three mechanics all good ones who have reached the point of insanity trying everything to work it out but it doesnt make sense.

[TheBoy]

Subframe loose?

[wildhog70]

Subframe loose?

Subframe has been checked and its 100% All bolts etc have been removed to check for damage.

[wildhog70]

Sorry answered you back please see below

....
However on watching the car when the car is braked the front left wheel moves back and in. ....
Any ideas!

That sounds like bushes ...... whose wishbones did you use?  :-/

If it's not wishbones it is definately something mechanical ... wheels should not move under braking !!!

Stick your location in your profile .. you might live near someone who can help

[freecall666]

could be a servo fault, one off the seals inside has gone, could also be the abs control... not the unit but just an idear.

[TheBoy]

Has it been aligned correctly, if so, post up the figures

[wildhog70]

Subframe loose?

I take it you meant front subframe

[TheBoy]

Presumably its been on a brake tester to check for brake imbalance?

[wildhog70]

I take it you mean front subframe

Subframe loose?

Subframe has been checked and its 100% All bolts etc have been removed to check for damage.

[wildhog70]

I take it you mean front subframe

Subframe loose?

Subframe has been checked and its 100% All bolts etc have been removed to check for damage.

I take it you meant front subframe

[TheBoy]

I take it you mean front subframe

Subframe loose?

Subframe has been checked and its 100% All bolts etc have been removed to check for damage.

I take it you meant front subframe

I did, although if you are running out of ideas, its as well to ensure the rear isn't twisting under stress...

[wildhog70]

Presumably its been on a brake tester to check for brake imbalance?

Cheers- Every time we have done work to the front the allignment has been checked and is ok. When the brakes are applied the car dives for the hedge. When being driven the car is 100% no drifting to left or right, crabbing, tyre wear or any other symptoms of allignment issues.

[Del Boy]

My van had this, which I thought was due to the calliper sticking on, when the calliper was changed it helped a lot, and then I got the tracking done which solved the issue.

[wildhog70]

Presumably its been on a brake tester to check for brake imbalance?

Cheers- Every time we have done work to the front the allignment has been checked and is ok. When the brakes are applied the car dives for the hedge. When being driven the car is 100% no drifting to left or right, crabbing, tyre wear or any other symptoms of allignment issues.

Thanks again-Its been to the mot test centre and nothing has registered. However I would agree with you and its a line we have looked into. The brakes lines have been checked for equal braking pressure while the vehicle is stationary. It has not been tested on the move. I am unaware of any facility here to test that. If it was to be brake imbalance, what would cause that? We believe we have checked everything but any fresh ideas would be great!

[wildhog70]

My van had this, which I thought was due to the calliper sticking on, when the calliper was changed it helped a lot, and then I got the tracking done which solved the issue.

thanks - calipers have been stripped, changed and discs swapped all to no avail!

[05omegav6]

The car will always follow the camber given half a chance.

If constant prodding and poking doesn't help, then the only solution is:

New not s/h:

Struts
Wishbones
Idler
Track rods

This was the solution on mine. The shocks had gone soft throwing the front end all over the place. combine this with worn/iffy bushes and the wheels do VERY strange things when you load the suspension up during braking/cornering.

Having seen my wheels do what you've described, it is quite chilling

Even if the front shocks seem to test ok, change them.

Not good news, but HTH

[henryd]

The car will always follow the camber given half a chance.

If constant prodding and poking doesn't help, then the only solution is:

New not s/h:

Struts
Wishbones
Idler
Track rods

This was the solution on mine. The shocks had gone soft throwing the front end all over the place. combine this with worn/iffy bushes and the wheels do VERY strange things when you load the suspension up during braking/cornering.

Having seen my wheels do what you've described, it is quite chilling

Even if the front shocks seem to test ok, change them.

Not good news, but HTH

Knackered steering idler would cause n/s wheel to "kick" under braking

[05omegav6]

Mine was kicking both wheels, both toeing in about 5 degrees each side under load.

[mrgreen]

perhaps collapsed brake hose, rare but can happen, how do they look?

[feeutfo]

Brake imbalance, air in system maybe. They do tow out under braking, look at the side that does not toe out for brake efficiency
Or
Fubar bushes, the side that toes out loosing control of the suspension arm. Lever the wishbones about with a pry bar, do they feel the same both sides?

Are all the parts matched pairs. Like wishbones, shocks, springs, and all the brake components?

[noel]

weak spring/shock or tyre pressure :-/

[wildhog70]

weak spring/shock or tyre pressure :-/

Thanks mate all checked

[wildhog70]

The car will always follow the camber given half a chance.

If constant prodding and poking doesn't help, then the only solution is:

New not s/h:

Struts
Wishbones
Idler
Track rods

This was the solution on mine. The shocks had gone soft throwing the front end all over the place. combine this with worn/iffy bushes and the wheels do VERY strange things when you load the suspension up during braking/cornering.

Having seen my wheels do what you've described, it is quite chilling

Even if the front shocks seem to test ok, change them.

Not good news, but HTH

Knackered steering idler would cause n/s wheel to "kick" under braking

Thanks folks - all of the above either replaced or ok

[wildhog70]

perhaps collapsed brake hose, rare but can happen, how do they look?

All replaced and brand new

[wildhog70]

Brake imbalance, air in system maybe. They do tow out under braking, look at the side that does not toe out for brake efficiency
Or
Fubar bushes, the side that toes out loosing control of the suspension arm. Lever the wishbones about with a pry bar, do they feel the same both sides?

Are all the parts matched pairs. Like wishbones, shocks, springs, and all the brake components?

Thanks - all checked new powerflex put in and rock solid everything is good. Have managed to source another vehicle and I am definately convinced there is imbalance in the brakes. Master cylinder, hoses, pipes, discs, calipers and pads etc are all checked or replaced so now we will start swaping abs parts from the donor to see if we can find a faulty item. I am not throwing any more money at this until i can isolate the culprit part! If this fails i am throwing in the towel!

Any other ideas welcome please

[Sehen]

Brake imbalance, air in system maybe. They do tow out under braking, look at the side that does not toe out for brake efficiency
Or
Fubar bushes, the side that toes out loosing control of the suspension arm. Lever the wishbones about with a pry bar, do they feel the same both sides?

Are all the parts matched pairs. Like wishbones, shocks, springs, and all the brake components?

Thanks - all checked new powerflex put in and rock solid everything is good. Have managed to source another vehicle and I am definately convinced there is imbalance in the brakes. Master cylinder, hoses, pipes, discs, calipers and pads etc are all checked or replaced so now we will start swaping abs parts from the donor to see if we can find a faulty item. I am not throwing any more money at this until i can isolate the culprit part! If this fails i am throwing in the towel!

Any other ideas welcome please

Have you checked the mounting backet with the sliding bolts in? I had the same problem, but when i changed the mounting brackets on both sides, the problem was solved.
The problem is that the bolts or the guide is worn unewen on one side, due to earlier corrosion to the bolts.
You will find out when you check the play in the calliper VS. the bracket when brakes are resting after a drive.
I did the same as you, changed the discs, pads, calipers all arround and the hoses, but it was the brackets holding the front callipers.
 Just a thought

[freecall666]

are all the tyers the same size??

[feeutfo]

Brake imbalance, air in system maybe. They do tow out under braking, look at the side that does not toe out for brake efficiency
Or
Fubar bushes, the side that toes out loosing control of the suspension arm. Lever the wishbones about with a pry bar, do they feel the same both sides?

Are all the parts matched pairs. Like wishbones, shocks, springs, and all the brake components?

Thanks - all checked new powerflex put in and rock solid everything is good. Have managed to source another vehicle and I am definately convinced there is imbalance in the brakes. Master cylinder, hoses, pipes, discs, calipers and pads etc are all checked or replaced so now we will start swaping abs parts from the donor to see if we can find a faulty item. I am not throwing any more money at this until i can isolate the culprit part! If this fails i am throwing in the towel!

Any other ideas welcome please

Do you have acess to a code reader that can activate the abs to aid bleeding and get any air out? If it's pulling left check the right side for air in the system, ESP if work done on that side.

Front wishbone bush is polly now you say, what about the rearward vertical bush? (sorry, speed reading this a bit. On a crap connection)

[cem_devecioglu]

I am watching this thread with interest.. as mine sometimes behaves similiar..
many things can cause that behaviour..

brake calipers,pistons, shocks, wishbones, front geometry items, tire pressure difference etc..

is there any play (gap) in steering ?

and also during checks a faulty item may be, not controlled completely :-/

also measure the distances of all tires to bumpers..

[wildhog70]

are all the tyers the same size??

Yeah all the same, again brand new.

[wildhog70]

I am watching this thread with interest.. as mine sometimes behaves similiar..
many things can cause that behaviour..

brake calipers,pistons, shocks, wishbones, front geometry items, tire pressure difference etc..

is there any play (gap) in steering ?

and also during checks a faulty item may be, not controlled completely :-/

also measure the distances of all tires to bumpers..

Was trawling the web last night and came across a guy who sounded like me, same issue tried and replaced all of the above and more and eventually came to the ABS pump. Apparently the pump faults dont show up on the computer but are a common fault item on omegas! not my words but theirs.

Any ideas or knowledge on these. Heard anything about them??

[wildhog70]

Brake imbalance, air in system maybe. They do tow out under braking, look at the side that does not toe out for brake efficiency
Or
Fubar bushes, the side that toes out loosing control of the suspension arm. Lever the wishbones about with a pry bar, do they feel the same both sides?

Are all the parts matched pairs. Like wishbones, shocks, springs, and all the brake components?

Thanks - all checked new powerflex put in and rock solid everything is good. Have managed to source another vehicle and I am definately convinced there is imbalance in the brakes. Master cylinder, hoses, pipes, discs, calipers and pads etc are all checked or replaced so now we will start swaping abs parts from the donor to see if we can find a faulty item. I am not throwing any more money at this until i can isolate the culprit part! If this fails i am throwing in the towel!

Any other ideas welcome please

Do you have acess to a code reader that can activate the abs to aid bleeding and get any air out? If it's pulling left check the right side for air in the system, ESP if work done on that side.

Front wishbone bush is polly now you say, what about the rearward vertical bush? (sorry, speed reading this a bit. On a crap connection)

Just responded to another note but thought i ould send this to you as well, Was trawling the web last night and came across a guy who sounded like me, same issue tried and replaced all of the above and more and eventually came to the ABS pump. Apparently the pump faults dont show up on the computer but are a common fault item on omegas! not my words but theirs.

I believe the old way to bleed them was with a code reader and I was wondering does this omega fall within the age when that proceedure was carried out. I know it can reset the system. There are also firms who specialise in rebuilding the pump and give a warranty as i am sure the price of a new pump would be horrendous

[feeutfo]

Abs ecu failure is a known issue. But the symptoms are all electronic, no speedo, no traction control, abs light on dash, although abs failure is not electronic, if you see what I mean, it does not affect braking performance.

Yours is a mechanical fault. I only mentined abs because it's almost possible to bleed air from the abs pump, unless fired remotely via tech2 or similar diagnostic computer.

[wildhog70]

Abs ecu failure is a known issue. But the symptoms are all electronic, no speedo, no traction control, abs light on dash, although abs failure is not electronic, if you see what I mean, it does not affect braking performance.

Yours is a mechanical fault. I only mentined abs because it's almost possible to bleed air from the abs pump, unless fired remotely via tech2 or similar diagnostic computer.

so its possible to get air trapped in the abs pump even though it is believed the system has been purged after a brake fluid change. So a brake fluid change should be done in conjunction with the proper diagnostic kit tapped into the abs?

[cem_devecioglu]

I am watching this thread with interest.. as mine sometimes behaves similiar..
many things can cause that behaviour..

brake calipers,pistons, shocks, wishbones, front geometry items, tire pressure difference etc..

is there any play (gap) in steering ?

and also during checks a faulty item may be, not controlled completely :-/

also measure the distances of all tires to bumpers..

Was trawling the web last night and came across a guy who sounded like me, same issue tried and replaced all of the above and more and eventually came to the ABS pump. Apparently the pump faults dont show up on the computer but are a common fault item on omegas! not my words but theirs.

Any ideas or knowledge on these. Heard anything about them??

abs fault is common to miggies but as Chrisgixer mentioned wont have effect in your problem..

at least when the abs pump becomes active you will hear its noise imo..

[feeutfo]

Abs ecu failure is a known issue. But the symptoms are all electronic, no speedo, no traction control, abs light on dash, although abs failure is not electronic, if you see what I mean, it does not affect braking performance.

Yours is a mechanical fault. I only mentined abs because it's almost possible to bleed air from the abs pump, unless fired remotely via tech2 or similar diagnostic computer.

so its possible to get air trapped in the abs pump even though it is believed the system has been purged after a brake fluid change. So a brake fluid change should be done in conjunction with the proper diagnostic kit tapped into the abs?

Basically your correct, but ordinarily shouldn't need tech2 to bleed the abs pump. If all goes normally all air and excess fluid should come out of the bleed nipple. However if the reservoir runs out of fluid and draws air in instead of fluid then there will be air in the abs pump. Only then will tech2 or diagnostic computer be needed.

[wildhog70]

Abs ecu failure is a known issue. But the symptoms are all electronic, no speedo, no traction control, abs light on dash, although abs failure is not electronic, if you see what I mean, it does not affect braking performance.

Yours is a mechanical fault. I only mentined abs because it's almost possible to bleed air from the abs pump, unless fired remotely via tech2 or similar diagnostic computer.

so its possible to get air trapped in the abs pump even though it is believed the system has been purged after a brake fluid change. So a brake fluid change should be done in conjunction with the proper diagnostic kit tapped into the abs?

Basically your correct, but ordinarily shouldn't need tech2 to bleed the abs pump. If all goes normally all air and excess fluid should come out of the bleed nipple. However if the reservoir runs out of fluid and draws air in instead of fluid then there will be air in the abs pump. Only then will tech2 or diagnostic computer be needed.

So, just to confirm that air in the abs pump, could effect or cause brake imbalance. This is the last thing we have to try. If its not this then my car is possessed.

Making inquiries now to trace a tech 2

[hotel21]

Whereabouts do you live?  If you add it to your profile, might make your search a bit easier.....   

[feeutfo]

There's 3 or 4 or on here, where are you? Uk?

[feeutfo]

Also ask, is it possible the brake fluid reservoir ran out of fluid...?

[wildhog70]

Also ask, is it possible the brake fluid reservoir ran out of fluid...?

Thanks for your messages!

Trying to trace a donor ABS pump. Do you know if the pump on the 30ltr is different from other models or are there any that carry the same one. Trying to shorten my time. If i can try another pump from a donor car and it doesnt rectify the problem then i am totally beat. But at least i will not be out more money buying another replacement part I dont need!

[feeutfo]

Also ask, is it possible the brake fluid reservoir ran out of fluid...?

Thanks for your messages!

Trying to trace a donor ABS pump. Do you know if the pump on the 30ltr is different from other models or are there any that carry the same one. Trying to shorten my time. If i can try another pump from a donor car and it doesnt rectify the problem then i am totally beat. But at least i will not be out more money buying another replacement part I dont need!

Seeing as this is the most awkward part due to lack of a code reader, I would suggest exhausting all other possibilities, double check everything, I appreciate you'r out of options but it's always worth going over the basics, then find a tech 2 to bleed the abs pump.

Replacing the abs pump will obviously leak air into all four brake lines and still need bleeding x4 etc.

Only replace parts once proved faulty. The abs pump itself is rarely problematic.

[feeutfo]

Where roughly are you in the world....?

We may be able to guide you to a tech2 owning member on here, if in the uk.

[wildhog70]

I am watching this thread with interest.. as mine sometimes behaves similiar..
many things can cause that behaviour..

brake calipers,pistons, shocks, wishbones, front geometry items, tire pressure difference etc..

is there any play (gap) in steering ?

and also during checks a faulty item may be, not controlled completely :-/

also measure the distances of all tires to bumpers..

Was trawling the web last night and came across a guy who sounded like me, same issue tried and replaced all of the above and more and eventually came to the ABS pump. Apparently the pump faults dont show up on the computer but are a common fault item on omegas! not my words but theirs.

Any ideas or knowledge on these. Heard anything about them??


Hi all, I know some of you have been watching this with interest but the news isnt good. The last thing I had left to replace was the ABS pump. I sourced a great one from Vauxhall salvage in Derby and it was fitted the other day. No difference what so ever.

I have replaced everything. I have three mechanics now who have thrown the towel in. And the car still isnt sorted.

Any ideas folks

[wildhog70]

Hi all, I know some of you have been watching this with interest but the news isnt good. The last thing I had left to replace was the ABS pump. I sourced a great one from Vauxhall salvage in Derby and it was fitted the other day. No difference what so ever.

I have replaced everything. I have three mechanics now who have thrown the towel in. And the car still isnt sorted.

Any ideas folks 

[Shackeng]

You say the alignment has been checked. Some are better than others at checking Omega alignment. Wheels in Motion have a good rep on here.

[Dodge]

Hi wildhog, I had EXACTLY the same probem and it ended up being a combination of CALIPER and WISHBONE.
I'm not saying that you have the same problem but I would do the following:
1. Take it for a brake weight check and on a rolling road but tell them what you are looking for and get them to test the breaks several times and not just the once.  This should identifyany breaking problems.
The calliper problem I had affected the wishbones so.....
2. Check the wishbones.  There are at least 2 if not 3 bushes (rubbers) on here and I went to 2 different garages who tested the wishbones with a crowbar by moving the wishbone up and down only so what you need to do is check the side to side movement on the wheels as well, similar to a wheel bearing check.
With the car up (on a 4 poster) try pushing the front wheels in (Towards each other) repeat with the car on the floor and also with the car slightly elevated but the tyres still touching.
That is where my problem was.
Because of the caliper problem, the bushes deteriorated on one side and when breaking hard or at speed the car would lurch to one side!
There are a lot of very cheap and poor quality products out there so my experience is you get what you pay for.
I live in an area with a lot of speed bumps and when a bush goes I change the whole wishbone and then get wheel alignment done too.
Hope this helps. Technically I'm no expert but have had 3 2.0/2.2 Omegas over 10 years and have come accross a few probs in my time!
Dodge

[Dodge]

p.s. one wish bone only lasted 2 weeks!

[feeutfo]

You sound like an expert  to me Dodge. Wishbone bush failure is very common as you say. 

Theres a me mechanical imbalance somewhere. Either brakes or bushes.

Brakes could be stuck slider or piston. Or worn pads or discs. Air in the system. Any of which could cause a wheel to brake less efficiently than the other side.

Or... loss of control of the wheel position on one side. BMW's have what they call track control arms. A very accurate description of they're job. They "control" the track of the wheels. Tracking! Or toe! Same thing. Note they are not responsible for adjustment, just control.

  So, if one bush is failed on omega wishbones, wishbones do the exact same job as BMW's track control arms on the omega btw, they then we have in imbalance there too. In that if the bush fails, control of the track of the wheels is lost compared to the other side.

Ordinarily, when we brake the natural reaction of the wishbone is to toe out both wheels.  Hold both arms out when walking through a door way, it's the same thing. The body goes forward and the arms go back. If a wishbone bush is failed we have one arm stronger than the other and the body will veer off under braking because both the toe out is not the same.

Are both wishbones matching pairs first of all. Always change axle components in pairs. Shocks, springs, wishbones/bushes, pads, discs etc all need to be working at even levels or we get a pull under braking. Either brake imbalance or loss of control of the wheel position on one side.


Btw, nobody suggested that changing the abs pump would make any odds.

And If we knew where you are, we may be able to help further. 

[HockeyDave55]

Have you checked the steering parts? Also, my MOT station have a rig on their lift the shakes the car so they can check for loose/worn parts, this together with a proper brake efficiency check should show up the problem....
Good luck mate, I know how you must feel...   

[feeutfo]

Indeed, must be a nightmare, and persistence is to be admired.

Happy to take a look if your anywhere near this part of the planet.....?

[wildhog70]

Thanks for all the replies. I am in Northern Ireland so I am probably miles from you! Will keep trying but have shelled out a fortune and the car is no better than whan i started.

[albitz]

Nearest OOF tech2 is in Scotland - not that close, and involving a return trip on the HS ferry to/from Stranraer.Doesnt seem to be much info/knowledge available on good dealers,mechanics etc. in the emerald isle.Im sure there are plenty who are up to the job - theres a professional standard rally team based in every other farm. Its just a matter of finding someone by word of mouth recommendation I imagine.

[feeutfo]

We have diagnosed a car today with similar problem. Wishbone bushes loose, or not tight enough. Correct torque setting is 120nm plus angle tighten 30 and then 15 degrees.