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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: terry paget on 12 September 2017, 12:16:39

Title: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 12 September 2017, 12:16:39
2.5 petrol manual estate
About to change the oil on this car, and found the sump base covered in oil..Source seems to be on the right hand side, not either of the pulley seals, there is an oil drop on the starter solenoid. I see a mysterious pipe above it with an open end.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/dlntr8v8taimn45/OILpipeBELOw.jpg?dl=1)
Looking from above, the pipe is beneath the exhaust manifold, and at the front end seems attached to the block with 2 hose clips.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/q5wdjjuwuxhrbc8/OILpipeTOP.jpg?dl=1)
By the way, this is not the car did the breathers on last Saturday. I did look at the pipe on  that car, and it is the same, with the rear end open.
Please advise.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 12 September 2017, 12:56:26
I'd be checking the cam cover seals first.

That pipe ending in a rubber pipe in lower pic looks like SAI pipe that has been blanked off.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 12 September 2017, 13:53:12
I'd be checking the cam cover seals first.

That pipe ending in a rubber pipe in lower pic looks like SAI pipe that has been blanked off.
Thanks TB, dead right. I pulled plugs 1 and 5, and found them swimming in oil. Funny I had experienced no misfiring, and no smell of oil in the cabin.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: New POD on 12 September 2017, 21:36:33
I'd be checking the cam cover seals first.

That pipe ending in a rubber pipe in lower pic looks like SAI pipe that has been blanked off.
Thanks TB, dead right. I pulled plugs 1 and 5, and found them swimming in oil. Funny I had experienced no misfiring, and no smell of oil in the cabin.

Oil is a good insulator. It only misfires when mixed with water.  Mine was not at all like oil, but smelly mayo.  New Cam seals took me 4 hours to do and now it doesn't leak.  Also replaced the suspect coil packs at the same time.  No silly fault codes for misfires since.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 12 September 2017, 22:49:28
I imagined that as the oil leak was on the right hand side, and I found oil in plug wells 1 and 5, that the only oil leak was the right hand cam cover gaskets. Wrong. After removing the plenum I checked plugs 2, 4 and 6 - they were swimming in oil too. And yet there was no misfiring, and no smell of oil in the cabin. Any how, TB correctly identified the oil leak, thanks for that, and I have a pleasant task for the weekend.
 
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Kevin Wood on 13 September 2017, 12:15:22
If both have failed together, it might be a sign that the breathers are blocked.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 13 September 2017, 20:40:58
If both have failed together, it might be a sign that the breathers are blocked.
Looks like they are. This sadly out of focus shot shows the front of the pre throttle breathers. Oil fumes are sucked from crank case through the breather unit to this point, where they go into the engine for combustion.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/adaon02ykec4f74/Pre%20throttle%20breathers.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: New POD on 13 September 2017, 21:37:37
Mine were worse, despite me paying a mechanic about 5 months before to clean them out (he did other stuff and that was a whilst you have it can you just do it)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2017, 22:57:18
Mine were worse, despite me paying a mechanic about 5 months before to clean them out (he did other stuff and that was a whilst you have it can you just do it)
You either do stupidly short journeys, or they weren't done...
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 12:38:49
Disaster! Have cleaned the breathers, and changed the cam cover gaskets, fitted new plugs, reassembled. Now engine starts reluctantly, but will not idle. No engine lights on. Left hand cam cover is smoking a lot, suggesting gasket not seated. Engine starts best on full throttle, I can rev it, hold it at 5500rpm, have warmed it up, but it still will not idle.

Confessions. I fitted to o/s a spare LHS gasket set I had, having used half of it earlier on another car without problems. For the n/s I ordered a complete similar gasket set from the same company, but they sent a substitue TOPRAM set. On first attempt one gasket fell out, on second attempt I thought all was well. The plugs I fitted were new Bosch R6 single electrode.

Please advise how I should proceed. Car is now unroadworthy.

Plugged in Chinese diagnostic device. With engine not running, ignition on, code 19 incorrect rpm signal was displayed.
With engine running it comments engine speed pulse inactive. Rev counter is functioning.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Nick W on 17 September 2017, 13:00:32
Air leak.


Which means you get to take it all apart again to fix it. And the smoking cam cover.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 13:44:30
Air leak.


Which means you get to take it all apart again to fix it. And the smoking cam cover.
Hmmm. The diagnostic did say lean lean lean lean, rather than lean rich lean rich, like other cars do. Thanks Nick. My first thought was oily plugs, but thought they should clear.

I agree it behaves like a big air leak, probably an O-ring unseated or lost, probably in the upper inlet manifold.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 17:28:01
I removed the plenum,found an O-ring displaced, most satisfactory. I replaced the O-ring and reassembled. Engine starts better, and tries to idle, but soon stalls. It still starts best with the throttle wide open. Nearside cam cover still smokes. I suppose a displaced cam cover gasket could be an air leak too, admitting air to the engine not metered by the MAF meter.

Please advise.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: BazaJT on 17 September 2017, 19:53:15
A couple of thoughts[that are probably wildly wrong but here goes]Is all the pipe work to the rear multi ram connected correctly?Is the electrical connector of the crank sensor fully seated home[I had idling issues on mine once that I traced down to this]?Or is the crank sensor cable trapped under the cam cover[thereby giving you the oil leak]?Lastly is the IACV properly sealed around the rubber grommet into the engine and fully connected? I'm assuming the 2.5 has the IACV?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 20:33:36
A couple of thoughts[that are probably wildly wrong but here goes]Is all the pipe work to the rear multi ram connected correctly?Is the electrical connector of the crank sensor fully seated home[I had idling issues on mine once that I traced down to this]?Or is the crank sensor cable trapped under the cam cover[thereby giving you the oil leak]?Lastly is the IACV properly sealed around the rubber grommet into the engine and fully connected? I'm assuming the 2.5 has the IACV?
Thanks or your suggestions. Answering your questions -
Rear multi ram is plugged into loom(no light on) and the vacuum pipe is attached;
I haven't been anywhere near the crank sensor; if you mean the cam sensor, when I changeed the cam covers with the lower inlet manifold and plenum removed I think I would have noticed if the cable was trapped; having had the first gasket dislodge,  I was very careful with the second, checking all the way round, yet it still smokes;- I will check;
car has an IACV, and it may well have been bumped about and made leaky, will check; it is plugged in (again no light on).

I fear I shall have to get some more gaskets and repeat the whole job. Car was running perfectly before this job, just leaking oil.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: BazaJT on 17 September 2017, 20:45:48
I was thinking of plug on crank sensor maybe being disturbed as it lives at the back of n/s head[which is how mine got disturbed when someone put some new cam cover gaskets on mine for me]One other daft thought are you sure there's still a leak and it's not just oil residue on the exhaust manifold/downpipe burning off?I know that can linger for a while-doesn't help with curing your poor idling though!
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 17 September 2017, 21:22:36
Due to it running lean before, put a fault on it (unplug MAF etc), then clear codes. This will reset trims.

Then see whats what.


Leaking cam gasket will not let air into engine.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 22:12:49
I was thinking of plug on crank sensor maybe being disturbed as it lives at the back of n/s head[which is how mine got disturbed when someone put some new cam cover gaskets on mine for me]One other daft thought are you sure there's still a leak and it's not just oil residue on the exhaust manifold/downpipe burning off?I know that can linger for a while-doesn't help with curing your poor idling though!
I believe the crank sensor on the V6 Omegas is alongside the oil filter. I've change a few and it's an under car job. The crank sensor is at the front of the n/s head. I had to unplug it when I took the loom out of its plastic case to gain access to the cam covers. This job is plagued with unplugging wiring and pipes, and then mixing them up or losing them!
No I am not sure the smoke is not caused by oil burning off, rather than a new oil leak, however the right hand side does not smoke. The smoke could be a missing length of gasket that may have fallen on the exhaust manifold.
However something is affecting the engine running. I cured a major air leak replacing the inlet manifold O-ring, but there is clearly another air leak somewhere, though TB says a leaking cam cover gasket would not constitute an engine air leak.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 17 September 2017, 22:19:19
Woops, correction, the CAM sensor is at the front of the near side head. It does get in the way of installing the near side cam cover. I agree its cable could get under the cam cover gasket making a leak.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 17 September 2017, 23:40:38
PM sent.  :)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 18 September 2017, 08:51:48
PM sent.  :)
Reply sent
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 18 September 2017, 14:08:57
Due to it running lean before, put a fault on it (unplug MAF etc), then clear codes. This will reset trims.

Then see whats what.


Leaking cam gasket will not let air into engine.
Unplugged MAF sensor, started and ran engine (did not run at all well), diagnostic siad MAF signal zero. Stopped engine, read codes, 19 and 73 (no MAF signal). Plugged MAF sensor in, restarted engine, just the same. It would idle for about 10 seconds, then stall.

Looks like I still have an air leak.

Why do you say leaking cam cover gasket will not leak air into engine? Will it not be sucked into the cam cover, go via the sump to the breather box, through the breather system, emerging at the front of the throttles, and go into the engine. Not unlike the leak when the O-ring between lower inlet manifold and plenum I cured yesterday.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 18 September 2017, 14:14:21
Have you checked your cam covers are straight Terry?  ???
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 18 September 2017, 17:00:01
just tried on mine if its any help terry .removing oil filler cap makes no real difference to idling so cam cover air leak would be similar or less.some other suggestions to try although i guess you will have already done these! . idle air valve unit on side pushed fully into grommet.brake servo pipe connection  to side of plenum done up.rest of brake servo pipe ok and free from leaks.disconnecting and plugging hole would confirm.egr valve ok and not leaking.no pipework come adrift from secondary air system if still used.no splits in any vac pipes or front concertina pipes.any undue hissing noises under plenum to suggest big air leak on any o rings .obviously assumung all electrical connectors in place . sorry if ive stated any obvious ideas
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 18 September 2017, 18:29:20
just tried on mine if its any help terry .removing oil filler cap makes no real difference to idling so cam cover air leak would be similar or less.some other suggestions to try although i guess you will have already done these! . idle air valve unit on side pushed fully into grommet.brake servo pipe connection  to side of plenum done up.rest of brake servo pipe ok and free from leaks.disconnecting and plugging hole would confirm.egr valve ok and not leaking.no pipework come adrift from secondary air system if still used.no splits in any vac pipes or front concertina pipes.any undue hissing noises under plenum to suggest big air leak on any o rings .obviously assumung all electrical connectors in place . sorry if ive stated any obvious ideas
Gosh, you are right, oil filler cap off is bigger leak than the gasket, so that theory is debunked.
Now I will check for leaks elsewhere.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 18 September 2017, 18:50:58
also when you say that it will idle for a bit and then stop do you hear any air leaks? . i would have thought the air valve would try to keep the speed up but there is a limit obviously to how far it will go. if the car was running fine before the work then you would expect it to be unlucky for something to go faulty but still possible. happy hunting and again my apologies if ive stated the obvious.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 18 September 2017, 19:04:41
also when you say that it will idle for a bit and then stop do you hear any air leaks? . i would have thought the air valve would try to keep the speed up but there is a limit obviously to how far it will go. if the car was running fine before the work then you would expect it to be unlucky for something to go faulty but still possible. happy hunting and again my apologies if ive stated the obvious.
Not at all, I have known oil filler caps left off, and it merely makes the idel a bit faster.
Yet the car was running perfectly before I changed the cam cover gaskets, so it must be a fault I have introduced. I found one in that O-ring displaced, there must be another one somewhere.  And the nearside cam cover gasket did smoke a lot, whereas the offside did not.It did not idle long enough for me to leap out of the cabin and listen for leaks
I have already removed the plenum, lower inlet manifold and wiring harness, and am about to remove the n/s cam cover. Now I worry that I may disturb a perfectly sealed gasket, and without a spare! 
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 18 September 2017, 19:11:40
to someone who has many years of experience with omegas i have greatest respect for you and im sure you will find the displaced o ring if there is one. at least to recheck and confirm for your own peice of mind.eliminating parts in stages. as for the cam cover gasket it should still be ok as its new .you probably have your way of doing things as do i .i lightly "glued " mine onto the cover with black gm sealant to hopefully prevent any displacement and used elring gaskets with no problems.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Entwood on 18 September 2017, 19:20:36
also when you say that it will idle for a bit and then stop do you hear any air leaks? . i would have thought the air valve would try to keep the speed up but there is a limit obviously to how far it will go. if the car was running fine before the work then you would expect it to be unlucky for something to go faulty but still possible. happy hunting and again my apologies if ive stated the obvious.
Not at all, I have known oil filler caps left off, and it merely makes the idel a bit faster.
Yet the car was running perfectly before I changed the cam cover gaskets, so it must be a fault I have introduced. I found one in that O-ring displaced, there must be another one somewhere.  And the nearside cam cover gasket did smoke a lot, whereas the offside did not.It did not idle long enough for me to leap out of the cabin and listen for leaks
I have already removed the plenum, lower inlet manifold and wiring harness, and am about to remove the n/s cam cover. Now I worry that I may disturb a perfectly sealed gasket, and without a spare!

Just my opinion but ... "if" the gasket went on "properly" and sealed "correctly" .. there will be no problem at all re-using it as it will have retained its original shape and proforma, it's not been on long enough to get hot enough to change....... however .. "if" it did not seat correctly and you have tightened it down "over itself" so to speak .. the it is probably beyond repair as it will have "crushed" when not in its "groove" .... (guess how I come to that conclusion ......  :)  )
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 18 September 2017, 20:35:07
With plenum, lower inlet manifold and harness cage removed, I have just checked for oil in plug wells - there is none. OK, it has not run for long, but its presence would have confirmed leaking gasket. I have found an old n/s cam cover in my spares heap this morning - I reckon I can get a mirror through the oil filler and look around for an out of place gasket. If not, I have a problem, though, as Entwood observes, if gasket is in place it is re-usable, and , if not, it's worth finding out.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 19 September 2017, 12:06:13
A couple of thoughts[that are probably wildly wrong but here goes]Is all the pipe work to the rear multi ram connected correctly?Is the electrical connector of the crank sensor fully seated home[I had idling issues on mine once that I traced down to this]?Or is the crank sensor cable trapped under the cam cover[thereby giving you the oil leak]?Lastly is the IACV properly sealed around the rubber grommet into the engine and fully connected? I'm assuming the 2.5 has the IACV?
Now I see what you mean. The cable from the knock sensor comes up to the main harness up the RH side of the block, and is well placed to get trapped under the cam cover just where you cannot see it. In this pic it is obvious. You will notice I have removed the cam sensor, hole at RH end of cam.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/7s01rhdcpb6dgk0/kNOCKsensorCABLE.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: BazaJT on 19 September 2017, 18:39:39
My apologise it was in all probability my poor description,but at least I knew what I meant ;D Anyhow I hope you get it cured soon whatever the cause :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 19 September 2017, 18:52:25
Due to it running lean before, put a fault on it (unplug MAF etc), then clear codes. This will reset trims.

Then see whats what.


Leaking cam gasket will not let air into engine.
Unplugged MAF sensor, started and ran engine (did not run at all well), diagnostic siad MAF signal zero. Stopped engine, read codes, 19 and 73 (no MAF signal). Plugged MAF sensor in, restarted engine, just the same. It would idle for about 10 seconds, then stall.

Looks like I still have an air leak.

Why do you say leaking cam cover gasket will not leak air into engine? Will it not be sucked into the cam cover, go via the sump to the breather box, through the breather system, emerging at the front of the throttles, and go into the engine. Not unlike the leak when the O-ring between lower inlet manifold and plenum I cured yesterday.
That to me immediately rings Crank Sensor alarm bells.

The 10s of idle, was it a good smooth idle, followed by a sudden engine cut out?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 19 September 2017, 22:51:40
Due to it running lean before, put a fault on it (unplug MAF etc), then clear codes. This will reset trims.

Then see whats what.


Leaking cam gasket will not let air into engine.
Unplugged MAF sensor, started and ran engine (did not run at all well), diagnostic siad MAF signal zero. Stopped engine, read codes, 19 and 73 (no MAF signal). Plugged MAF sensor in, restarted engine, just the same. It would idle for about 10 seconds, then stall.

Looks like I still have an air leak.

Why do you say leaking cam cover gasket will not leak air into engine? Will it not be sucked into the cam cover, go via the sump to the breather box, through the breather system, emerging at the front of the throttles, and go into the engine. Not unlike the leak when the O-ring between lower inlet manifold and plenum I cured yesterday.
That to me immediately rings Crank Sensor alarm bells.

The 10s of idle, was it a good smooth idle, followed by a sudden engine cut out?
Yes, it was 10 seconds  of smooth idle, followed by a sudden cut out.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 10:24:52
Yesterday I removed the LH cam cover again and repeated the whole operation.

Car is running normally again, thanks to all for advice, and Sir Tigger QC for set of Vx cam cover gaskets. There is still a little smoke arising from LH of engine, but I hope that is just old oil burning off.

The air leak problem I conclude was careless fitting of the plenum. I had it off and on a few times as I sorted out the cables and hoses.

Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 17:22:03
Gentlemen, I am perplexed. This time I took great care installing the left hand cam cover gasket. I used as new Vx gaskets, I achieved maximum access by removing the scuttle, cam sensor, hanging the wiring out of the way on the corner of the scuttle, and releasing the aircon pipe front screw. I applied the black sealant to all the sharp corners. After practising with a spare cam cover, I manoeuvred the cam cover with gaskets into place. I inserted the 8 screws and carefully torqued them up to 8Nm. I reassembled the engine, left it overnight for sealant to set. I took it for a 10 miles drive this morning.

It still leaks. Under the car there is oil. Looking under the cam cover with a mirror on a stick, it comes out dripping with warm oil.

I wonder what I did wrong, or failed to do. Please advise.

Pic follows of my access to place cam cover to head.
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/s/nku9fhd5sr3mn9a/LHcamsCLEARED.jpg?dl=1[img]
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 17:25:52
Pic
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nku9fhd5sr3mn9a/LHcamsCLEARED.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 20 September 2017, 18:04:47
Where exactly is it leaking Terry?   ???

Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 18:21:40
Where exactly is it leaking Terry?   ???
Don't know. I only see it on the floor after a run. However, poking a mirror on a stick down the outside I can see nothing, but the mirror comes out with a little oil on it.
Reading Haynes for the sealan tpart number, I see I did the job exactly as he instructs, except I did not put sealant all round the rear half moons, I just put it on the corner.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 September 2017, 18:33:20
Are the half moons all seated correctly :-\
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 20 September 2017, 18:47:11
Have you wiped off the top of the sump, as that can hold up a fair amount of oil.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 18:49:51
Are the half moons all seated correctly :-\
I did not think I could see without dismantling everything. I will have a look.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Kevin Wood on 20 September 2017, 18:51:13
Also make sure you haven't blocked the return channels from behind the cam oil seals as if these are blocked the oil will force its' way out through the seals.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 18:51:33
Have you wiped off the top of the sump, as that can hold up a fair amount of oil.
No. I will go and do so. That would not explain the oil on the mirror though.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: BazaJT on 20 September 2017, 18:52:37
Other than all of the above have you checked with a straight edge[a 12" ruler will do]that the covers are straight and not "warped".Mirror on a stick might get you a look at the half moons or you should be able to feel them with your finger tips if the gasket is standing too proud.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 18:55:58
Also make sure you haven't blocked the return channels from behind the cam oil seals as if these are blocked the oil will force its' way out through the seals.
Not quite sure what you mean. There is quite a bit of old sealant knocking about, not to mention bits of old gasket that got chopped up. I presume you mean some of the holes in the head that allow the oil to drain back to the sump. I did not clear any holes.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 19:54:44
I have got in the pit under the car and wiped the sump top and bottom. I cannot see the half moons either from below or above, they are right under the scuttle drain. I have tried with a mirror on a stick, but there is no access.

I left the car idling for an hour, and there was little oil on the floor. After a 15 minute drive, then parking the car in the garage, there was more oil on the floor. Sump appears to be still full, so it is not an enormous leak.

I wonder if my failure to apply sealant around the half moon area explains the leak.

At the moment the two big fat hoses from the breather box to the breather top do not have hose clips, they are just pushed all the way on. Probably irrelevant, I just mention it.

Please keep the thoughts coming, chaps.

I aim to buy some more black sealant on Friday at Trowbridge. I might take the car apart again over the weekend, though daughter is bringing home her 2.6 for MOT tomorrow.

It is frustrating because I have changed cam cover gaskets on left hand side before with little trouble
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Entwood on 20 September 2017, 20:21:21
Not teaching you to suck eggs .. but just checking ..  you've done exactly as MarkDTM describes here ??

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90542.0

specifically :

"Fit the new cam cover seals noting the locating lugs on the seals which locate into small cut outs at the rear of the covers.
 
Apply the sealant around the half moon cutouts at the rear of the heads and either side of the two front cam clamps, as a basic rule, you are applying sealant where the rubber seals turn through a tight 90 deg bend

As soon as they are fitted, reach your hand around the back of the cam cover and feel to check the half moon shape rubber section is still in place other wise you will get a VERY big oil leak!"

TheBoy then posts pictures where the sealant should go, last part of the article.

HTH and good luck !!
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 September 2017, 20:29:30
The half moons can be felt in situ... you only need a fingertip to confirm correct position ;)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 20 September 2017, 20:53:52
The half moons can be felt in situ... you only need a fingertip to confirm correct position ;)
I'm sorry, I can't get a finger in there. The aircon, brake pipes, the wiring harness and the plenum get in the way.I think when I assembled it I did pass a hand behind the cam cover to make sure the half moons were not hanging out. I will check next time.

On another matter, SWMBO has just rung up. She is out with some chums in Carlingcott in the 3.2. She complains half the back of her car has fallen off  - she means she has knocked the bumper off. Will I rescue her?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 20 September 2017, 21:05:02
Also make sure you haven't blocked the return channels from behind the cam oil seals as if these are blocked the oil will force its' way out through the seals.
Not quite sure what you mean. There is quite a bit of old sealant knocking about, not to mention bits of old gasket that got chopped up. I presume you mean some of the holes in the head that allow the oil to drain back to the sump. I did not clear any holes.

Yes you should make sure all the little holes (oilways) are clear and clean up all the bits of old sealant and gasket!  ;)

As Baza has said check your Cam Covers are staright and when refitting use the goo in the half moons and tight corners at the front as per DTM's guide.  :y

I've sent another PM.  Go get Mrs Paget!  ;D

Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 21 September 2017, 13:49:13
Not teaching you to suck eggs .. but just checking ..  you've done exactly as MarkDTM describes here ??

http://www.omegaowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=90542.0

specifically :

"Fit the new cam cover seals noting the locating lugs on the seals which locate into small cut outs at the rear of the covers.
 
Apply the sealant around the half moon cutouts at the rear of the heads and either side of the two front cam clamps, as a basic rule, you are applying sealant where the rubber seals turn through a tight 90 deg bend

As soon as they are fitted, reach your hand around the back of the cam cover and feel to check the half moon shape rubber section is still in place other wise you will get a VERY big oil leak!"

TheBoy then posts pictures where the sealant should go, last part of the article.

HTH and good luck !!
Did it all as the guide, with the exception of applying black sealant around the rear half moons, which the guide and Haynes specify, but TB dismisses as unnecesary, just a good way to wipe my finger. I agree with TB, it should not be necessary, but now I wish I had done it.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 21 September 2017, 18:36:43
Eh? I do precisely as per guide.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 21 September 2017, 20:59:40
Eh? I do precisely as per guide.
Begging your pardon TB, but your appendix to Fuse 19's guide, reply 47, states 'You don't really need the smear around the surface of the half moon, but it's a good spot to clean your finger.'
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 23 September 2017, 19:36:26
I have removed the left hand cam cover again. The half moons were in place at the back, with sufficient sealant on them to make them hard to remove. I have cleaned up the head and the cam cover. I can detect no warping of the cam cover by laying a steel rule along the sides. There was no oil in the plug holes. The trickiest spot to see and clean up was at the front outside corner, behind the dip stick

I have bought some more sealant, at Vauxhall Platinum Trowbridge. I enquired the cost of gaskets, was told 51.48 inc. VAT. I did not buy any. I have a second set of usd Gm baskets, and one new unused aftermarket gasket, and they are all about the same dimensions.

I do not know why the last repair failed; everything seemed to be in place, and there was enough sealant on the half moons to make removal tricky. I wonder if new Gm gaskets are a little bigger and therefore seal better.

Should I try again with my second set of used Gm gaskets, or should I buy new Gm on the off chance that they be a little bigger and therefore seal better?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 23 September 2017, 23:07:00
Also make sure you haven't blocked the return channels from behind the cam oil seals as if these are blocked the oil will force its' way out through the seals.
[/quoteWhich are the return channels?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8m0q470dl321zbr/CAMdrains.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 25 September 2017, 21:19:47
I am reassembling after my third attempt to seal the left hand cam cover. I noticed some brown gunge at the engine end of the small breather, so I removed the throttle, and breather unit, from the plenum. I squirted some carb cleaner though the breather unit and it came out brown; not good. What I need is a long pipe cleaner, but I haven't got one I suppose all I can do is keep squirting carb cleaner through it until it comes out clean. It seems worth doing while the plenum is off. Any tips?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 25 September 2017, 21:37:25
Is that little hole in the breather box clear Terry?  Easily missed that one.  :)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 25 September 2017, 22:43:53
Is that little hole in the breather box clear Terry?  Easily missed that one.  :)
Yes, that's the one I always check and often have to clear. Tonight's battle was removing the big Y shaped pipe. It is clamped to the breather box with a spring hose clip which is a devil to remove. It is off now, and looks nearly blocked with oily gunge - a job for the morning.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 26 September 2017, 14:40:58
Car now reassembled. Engine runs, no lights on, Oil leak I think is cured. Not sure what was wrong last time, however this time I did use new Gm gaskets and a new tube of sealant.
Engine stalls occasionally, and starts with a splutter. Bother. Air leak? I have looked around and can see nothing wrong, not tightened up, no hoses off or missing. I suppose I could remove the plenum and replace it. Has anyone any ideas?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Paddy Flannery on 26 September 2017, 15:17:18
Car now reassembled. Engine runs, no lights on, Oil leak I think is cured. Not sure what was wrong last time, however this time I did use new Gm gaskets and a new tube of sealant.
Engine stalls occasionally, and starts with a splutter. Bother. Air leak? I have looked around and can see nothing wrong, not tightened up, no hoses off or missing. I suppose I could remove the plenum and replace it. Has anyone any ideas?

You Sir, are a very, very patient man. I hope you finally sort it. Your patience deserves reward.
This would be me faced with your problem..........

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9bzWAJELT4E
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 09:35:33
Last night I removed and replaced the plenum. Engine still starts hesitantly, and stalls for a pastime. No engine lights on. I plugged in my diagnostic tool, only stored code is 19 - Incorrect rpm signal.

I am at a loss. During my cam cover operations I removed the cam sensor, and unplugged the crank sensor. My instinct is that a sensor is misbehaving, crank, MAF or cam. Being a 2.5 petrol, crank sensor is the most likely.

Please advise.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 27 September 2017, 10:29:11
i understood that code 31 should be the only code that would come up with a non running engine (and not on a running one)not 19 so do you have a known perfect crank sensor to try or even swap on another 2.5 car ?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Kevin Wood on 27 September 2017, 11:45:17
The code 19 is a sure sign that things are not well with the crank sensor...
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 27 September 2017, 12:13:55
also terry did you say that the code showed up on your reader? . i was under the impression that 2.5models are not compliant and use the paperclip method ? or do they do both ?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 14:23:09
i understood that code 31 should be the only code that would come up with a non running engine (and not on a running one)not 19 so do you have a known perfect crank sensor to try or even swap on another 2.5 car ?
YES! Furthermore, I popped it in, and the stalling ceased. In a 2 mile test run it ran perectly.
I regard it as mean and unhelpful of the wretched thing to fail just now, after I have had the plenum off several times, so I  blamed myself for the trouble, not a failing crank sensor.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 14:25:23
The code 19 is a sure sign that things are not well with the crank sensor...
Interesting. No engine  lights were on so I presumed there were no stored codes. After changing the crank sensor I tested it again, erased codes, ran the engine, and then there were no stored codes.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 14:33:06
also terry did you say that the code showed up on your reader? . i was under the impression that 2.5models are not compliant and use the paperclip method ? or do they do both ?
My 2 2.5s (V & X reg) are not OBD2 compliant, so I imagined the reader would not connect with them. Wrong! Also no engine lights were on so I presumed there were no stored codes. Wrong again!

Kevin says code 19 can mean failing crank sensor. That's worth knowing too.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: cam.in.head on 27 September 2017, 16:09:01
cheers terry. nice to know code reader works on an x reg.
ps i know you probably wont want to bother but is it worth putting the sensor on another car to try. also was it a genuine sensor ?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 17:11:49
cheers terry. nice to know code reader works on an x reg.
ps i know you probably wont want to bother but is it worth putting the sensor on another car to try. also was it a genuine sensor ?
I have little doubt the fault was the crank sensor. I wondered whether it was the connection, as I disconnected it during the cam cover gasket change, but it seemed well connected. I shall not test it on another car. I have better things to do, like change the wishbones on this car.
It was a genuine Vx crank sensor which I took off a very similar silver X reg 2.5 petrol manual estate 3 years ago.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 27 September 2017, 18:24:25
I have a theory that getting hot oil on it severely reduces the life of the cranksensor.

Which is another reason NOT to do the daft thing replacing paper element oil filters with the spin on type.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 27 September 2017, 18:59:31
I have a theory that getting hot oil on it severely reduces the life of the cranksensor.

Which is another reason NOT to do the daft thing replacing paper element oil filters with the spin on type.
Why should changing the oil filter from paper element to spin-on affect how much hot oil gets on the crank sensor?

Incidentally, the crank sensor I have just replaced has done 35,000 miles and lasted 4.1/2 years. Car has paper element filter.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Nick W on 27 September 2017, 19:15:25
I have a theory that getting hot oil on it severely reduces the life of the cranksensor.

Which is another reason NOT to do the daft thing replacing paper element oil filters with the spin on type.
Why should changing the oil filter from paper element to spin-on affect how much hot oil gets on the crank sensor?



It doesn't, because any ham-fisted halfwit can change one without making a mess.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 28 September 2017, 19:01:47
If the car started and was running fine before you did the cam covers. And now you're left with stalling and code 19. And you unplugged the crank sensor. I'd be checking the connection you disconnected. If all is good then I'd stick a new sensor on and see what happens.

Also, regarding the cam covers. If you're using shit aftermarket ones (and they are all shit; I say with great sadness when I think about the cost of the genuine) I'd add a bit of sealant to a few key areas in the cam cover grooves. Stick the gasket in. Let that go off. Then fit the cam cover. Then you can concentrate on the seating of the half moons instead of fighting a gasket that just wants to fall out.

I'm guessing (don't know for sure) that the OE gasket would have little nubs in to help keep it in place during fitment.

Just my thoughts  :)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: amba on 28 September 2017, 19:09:34
OE gaskets have small ribs in various places and are quite a tight fit into the covers grooves.

They are also quite springy to touch so imagine the rubber is designed to be quite compliant when tightened down.

I have never used anything other than GM gaskets as prefer doing a job once...but properly  :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 28 September 2017, 19:17:17
Completely agree. But it gave me a lot of practice messing round with different gaskets  ;D
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 28 September 2017, 21:55:29
If the car started and was running fine before you did the cam covers. And now you're left with stalling and code 19. And you unplugged the crank sensor. I'd be checking the connection you disconnected. If all is good then I'd stick a new sensor on and see what happens.

Also, regarding the cam covers. If you're using shit aftermarket ones (and they are all shit; I say with great sadness when I think about the cost of the genuine) I'd add a bit of sealant to a few key areas in the cam cover grooves. Stick the gasket in. Let that go off. Then fit the cam cover. Then you can concentrate on the seating of the half moons instead of fighting a gasket that just wants to fall out.

I'm guessing (don't know for sure) that the OE gasket would have little nubs in to help keep it in place during fitment.

Just my thoughts  :)Thanks for your thoughts Webby, much like mine.

To reiterate: I fotted aftermarket gaskets to right hand side cam cover, no problem. I fitted aftermarket gaskets to LH camcover, the one with lousy access, and it leaked. I replaced LH gaskets with used Gm gaskets, and did it more carefully, removing scuttle and front aircon pipe mounting -leaked again. I replaced second lot with new Gm gaskets, and using a new tube of sealant, sealed OK. Then engine started badly and wpuld not idle - air leak- so I removed plenum which improved things, but engine still stalled. I replaced crank sensor with known good sensor, now all is well.

All the gaskets had ribs on to retain them in the cam cover. Crank sensor failure was unfortunate. I did check that the original crank sensor was firmly plugged in before I replaced it.

What a lark, eh? It all began with an oil change and finding an oil leak. I still not have changed the oil. Next job is to change the wishbones to correct wandery steering, pulling left on braking. Current wishbones are ATP, fitted March 2014, 35000 miles ago. I persist because this car has very little rust, unlike my other Omegas.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: TheBoy on 29 September 2017, 19:03:22
Why should changing the oil filter from paper element to spin-on affect how much hot oil gets on the crank sensor?
Because the buggers frequently weep, particularly the cheap no-name ones, and make such a bloody mess to drain that oil ends up everywhere.

That's why they were replaced with the newer type - it sure as hell wasn't a cost cutting measure ;)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 29 September 2017, 20:06:19
Why should changing the oil filter from paper element to spin-on affect how much hot oil gets on the crank sensor?
Because the buggers frequently weep, particularly the cheap no-name ones, and make such a bloody mess to drain that oil ends up everywhere.

That's why they were replaced with the newer type - it sure as hell wasn't a cost cutting measure ;)

I've got to be honest, I like the paper filter set up.  :y

One question though. What size is the socket (Allen?) to tighten up he housing to the block? Haven't done it for a while...
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 September 2017, 17:30:50
14mm :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 30 September 2017, 18:41:33
14mm :y

Cheers mate  :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 30 September 2017, 18:42:00
Is there a torque for it...?
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 September 2017, 19:37:49
Is there a torque for it...?
Probably  ::) pft should suffice ;)
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Webby the Bear on 30 September 2017, 21:19:57
Lol cheers mate  :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: terry paget on 03 October 2017, 11:56:55
This morning I finally changed the oil.
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Migv6 on 03 October 2017, 12:16:17
Is there a torque for it...?

The figure is cast into the lid of the canister.  :y
Title: Re: v6 OIL LEAK
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 03 October 2017, 12:19:39
Is there a torque for it...?

The figure is cast into the lid of the canister.  :y
That applies to the lid, not the retaining bolt ;)