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Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: terry paget on 04 October 2017, 20:03:27

Title: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 04 October 2017, 20:03:27
2.6 petrol manula saloon
Daughter Catherine brought her car home for MOT recently. It drives perfectly, all electrics work, exhaust is fine. I was putting on a better set of wheels and tyres, and thought I would check the cills for holes at the point by the rear wheel jacking points where testers attack with picks. Offside was fine, I wirebrushed it and undersealed it, but the nearside was not so good. I removed the cill cover and wirebrushed it. Please advise how I should proceed from here.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/w9lcss1j5ehf0hk/Y342cill.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 04 October 2017, 20:06:04
The only answer is to cut out the rust and weld new metal in its place.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Entwood on 04 October 2017, 20:08:46

<snip>

 Please advise how I should proceed from here.


Trip to a friendly welder for removal of rotten metal and replacement with new ... the only way to sort that problem. I had both sides done on mine 2 years ago .. 600 but that was for complete new cills both sides. Not purchased ones, he fabricated them himself.

beaten to it ....by migv6 ... again .....  :-\
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: VXL V6 on 04 October 2017, 20:27:54
I bought some replacement sills from Cars2 and Daz just cut the bits off he required to replace the rusty sections he cut out.  :y
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Mutha Jugs n Speed on 04 October 2017, 21:10:56
Just had the same situation as I described in another post, the car was potentially a candidate for the scrappy as the rust damage was extensive, and although the guy who did the repairs was old school and had the skills to do a really excellent and hopefully permanent repair,the bill was  eye watering and has made me realise that I could be spending my hard earned elswhere ::)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 04 October 2017, 21:53:01
Thanks for all the advice. I was hoping I could put on a patch on the area visible by the jacking point, as the MOT tester did on my 3.2, both sides, for 300. 600 would buy me another Omega. Below I depict the 3.2 hole. There were other holes in the 3.2 cill, but a\ll they patched was the bit by the jacking point.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8qplikykt75vovl/OE03cillHOLE.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Entwood on 04 October 2017, 21:56:26
I guess it depends on how long you wish to keep the car, I did mine the "expensive" way because getting another omega that runs as well on LPG would be impossible, and the cost of converting a non-LPG to LPG would be a lot more than 600, so mines a "keeper" at the moment .... (although shes being a pain right now .. we'll hopefully soon get her better .. :) )
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 04 October 2017, 22:56:40
Terry, your chances of paying 600 for an Omega that doesn't look like that are very poor. Fix what you have(fitting a complete sill isn't much more work than an MOT lashup) or move onto newer cars that aren't as crusty.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 05 October 2017, 00:06:16
My answer was to buy a MIG welder and teach myself to weld. Not to a really high standard, but good enough for under car repairs.
As Webby says "A grinder & paint, can make a welder what he aint."  ;)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 05 October 2017, 06:11:02
Thank you gentlemen. Buying a MIG welder and teaching myself to use it is my preferred option. What was the welder you recommended recently, Nick? Is it reasonable to buy a welder, read the instructions that come with it, and teach myself how to do it, or do I need a college course?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: biggriffin on 05 October 2017, 08:21:11
Go old skool, bit of cardboard, some p38 bit of filler and then slap undersill everywhere. :y
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Lazydocker on 05 October 2017, 11:33:14
Go old skool, bit of cardboard, some p38 bit of filler and then slap undersill everywhere. :y

Depends if he's willing to do that to the car his daughter (and possibly grandchildren) are running around in... It'll only get worse and there's a good reason it is a prescribed area  ;)

At least use chemical metal if you're going to bodge it
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 05 October 2017, 13:57:49
Terry, your chances of paying 600 for an Omega that doesn't look like that are very poor. Fix what you have(fitting a complete sill isn't much more work than an MOT lashup) or move onto newer cars that aren't as crusty.
Fair comment Nick, but there are some rust free cars out there, trouble is spotting them. I have 2 good 1999 estates costing (305 and 257), and a 2.2 saloon that cost 190 that's also pretty good. Are estates in general better for rust than saloons? On e-bay all I have to go on is the rear wheel arches in the pictures, what the vendor tells me, and the length of MOT. Have any menbers any more suggestions?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 05 October 2017, 14:05:43
My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 05 October 2017, 18:30:41
Thank you gentlemen. Buying a MIG welder and teaching myself to use it is my preferred option. What was the welder you recommended recently, Nick? Is it reasonable to buy a welder, read the instructions that come with it, and teach myself how to do it, or do I need a college course?


That's how I did it, but I had been using a stick welder before. Even with that experience, lots of practice was necessary before I considered welding the car.


A college course isn't necessary, but half an hours instruction from somebody who knows what they're doing will considerably reduce your learning curve. You will need to buy a sheet the same thickness as the car; buying thicker than that is a waste of time and money as you will still need to practice on the correct size. If you can get it sheared into 6"(ish) squares do so.


What else do you have in the way of tools? You won't do any electric welding without an angle grinder and an assortment of cutting/sanding discs. You MUST use PPE; a proper welding mask, gloves, safety goggles, and thick cotton overalls are required, and a good large fire extinguisher is a damn good idea. Using the disposable gas cylinders is expensive, and they don't make for very good welds; a proper cylinder and regulator is likely to cost another 150.


My welder is a semi-industrial machine, and would cost over a grand to replace so I can't really advise on a machine. I would be looking at buying an inverter based machine if I had to buy a new welder.


Realistically, you're looking at spending 500 before you put a torch anywhere near a car. Unless you're expecting to use the tools a lot, I would suggest that's not good value. The <<200 machines will do what you need, but not in a beginner's hands.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: omega2018 on 05 October 2017, 18:56:35
not easy to tell from the pic but it doesn't look too bad.  the main concern is the split along the seam, you will need to weld a plate over it.   the blister (probably hole)  looks minor, you could just clean up and fill with an epoxy filler.   

so i would mechanically and chemically remove the rust to get a feel for what is solid and most of all to get a clean rust free surface to weld to.  fertan chemical is probably the easiest to use as it is water based and doesn't dry, or an acid like Hydrochloric Acid (Muriatic Acid) while it is still legal.

i have an inverter mig welder but for that small section i would get out my stick/tig/plasma machine as it is less hassle to set up. you don't need a continuous neat weld, as a rough guide 1 inch of good weld holds a tonne.  then grind it neat and treat the inside liberally with penetrating rust treatment and the outside with an anti rust primer, either water based like vactan or preferably solvent based like fortress,  then underseal.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 05 October 2017, 19:26:32
I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 05 October 2017, 20:40:38
Whacking the regulator up is important as Ive discovered that no gas actually comes out of it until it is set to number 4 (5 is maximum).
I plan on replacing the reg. with a better quality one at some point.
So far Ive got on ok with the little disposable gas bottles, but they aren't great value. On the other hand, if you only do a bit of welding once or twice a year,you have to take into account the cost and size of the large bottles.
My welder came with gauntlets and a basic mask. I wasn't keen on the mask so bought an automatic self darkening helmet.
The whole lot came in at just over 300 iirc.
I already had an angle grinder, and so far haven't bothered with an apron or thick overalls. I just wear old thick clothes and swear a lot if anything gets past them.  ;D
Again, it all depends on how often your likely to use it, and to some degree your attitude to the risk of a minor burn.
No excuse for risking your eyes though, so a proper protection is a must.
The instruction book for the welder was pretty good and got me started, and TB also emailed me some further stuff which helped even more.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 06 October 2017, 07:38:15
Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 06 October 2017, 17:53:41
Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.

Do tell.  :D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 08:39:48
I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Where did you but the sills, TB?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 15:07:54
I bought some replacement sills from Cars2 and Daz just cut the bits off he required to replace the rusty sections he cut out.  :y
Could you give me a reference to cars2 please?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: VXL V6 on 07 October 2017, 15:21:28
http://www.carz2.co.uk/vauxhallopel-omegavauxhall-omega-94--16603-c.asp
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 15:23:56
My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 15:29:19
http://www.carz2.co.uk/vauxhallopel-omegavauxhall-omega-94--16603-c.asp
Thanks
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 16:00:30
I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 07 October 2017, 17:53:09
My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?

It is indeed, although I bought it from somewhere else for about 40 cheaper, but I cant remember where from tbh.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 07 October 2017, 19:03:32
My welder is a Clark 135 T, as recommended by TB and others on OOF. I'm glad I bought it as its quite an easy machine to learn with and produce acceptable results.  :y
Is that the Clarke 135TE welder page  on current Machine Mart catalogue, price 299.98 inc. vat?

It is indeed, although I bought it from somewhere else for about 40 cheaper, but I cant remember where from tbh.
Machine Mart used to have VAT free days. Do they still have them?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 07 October 2017, 19:51:50
Clarke 135 looks just like my Cebora, if so a good basic MIG welder. Mine cost me a donation to the lady across the road who'd just got divorced and was chucking out ex husband's stuff.

I was taught welding skills by a mate who did up land rovers for a living and I learned that basic MIG welding is a matter of power, wire speed, wire tension and the pace at which you work all in balance. A good argon/CO2 shroud goes a long way to keeping it neat too.

If it's any help I get 2.2L gas bottles from Telford welding and can do a fair bit with one bottle. Miggy currently on 3 wheels again whilst I weld new sections into rear inner arch behind plastic rear arch liner and dissolved flange behind bumper. Car is mechanically very strong with donkeys years left in it but would be on the scrapheap if I couldn't weld.

Ultimately a much cheaper solution than trying to replace it.

Do tell.  :D ;D ;D
I couldn't just take a prefectly good functioning welder so the donation was 20 I think. Didn't donate anything else.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 08 October 2017, 18:53:33
I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
They are in the roof of the garage currently.  I thought they would be worth keeping for TBE, as no doubt a time will come when that needs them.

I ordered them from the place VXL V6 recommended, but took ages to come, as they were waiting for them to be made.


If you are really desperate, timewise, and are passing this way, you can have these if you replace them. Sadly, too problematic to post. So I'd recommend trying to get some from place VXL V6 used, and only come here if they are slow to dispatch.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 08 October 2017, 22:35:38
I bought a pair of sills for the Bullet, with the intention of Mr DTM to cut bits out and use bits of the replacement sills to weld back in, but it never happened before the car went.

The sills were about 40 delivered for the pair IIRC, worth it IMHO to save the effort fabricating a sheet the right shape.


I was recommended the Clarke 135 by MDTM, and find it an easy machine to work with...  ...my tip being whack the gas right up to max, ignoring the settings suggested in the booklet. It does use a fair amount of CO2, but just replace with bigger cylinder when time comes.

I think I probably have the capability to weld bits of sill in, but lack the confidence to do so.
Have you still got the sills, but no need of them any more?
They are in the roof of the garage currently.  I thought they would be worth keeping for TBE, as no doubt a time will come when that needs them.

I ordered them from the place VXL V6 recommended, but took ages to come, as they were waiting for them to be made.


If you are really desperate, timewise, and are passing this way, you can have these if you replace them. Sadly, too problematic to post. So I'd recommend trying to get some from place VXL V6 used, and only come here if they are slow to dispatch.
Thanks for the offer, I may hold you to it. I tried to order some tonight and their web site said they were closed at the moment, so I will try again later. I play golf in Didcot every Friday so I could collect and return if necessary. I will try to order again tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 09 October 2017, 17:48:26
I can likely get them to Oxford with a bit of notice, as the Outlaws are there
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 09 October 2017, 19:25:28
I can likely get them to Oxford with a bit of notice, as the Outlaws are there
Thanks, that would be great. Son Ben has a mate who welds cars for a living and who has agreed to take on this job and show me how it's done He owns no tools, so I have to buy a welder and whatever else we need. I presume you visit the outlaws occasionally and could leave the sills there. How soon might this be?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 09 October 2017, 19:29:41
Today caz2 e-mailed me, said they would be ordering some more sills in about 3 weeks time, should they order a pair for me. I said yes. It sounds like they will be some time.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: VXL V6 on 09 October 2017, 19:33:56
Yes, they take a bit of time to arrive but save you having to fabricate from sheets of metal.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 10 October 2017, 09:43:08
If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 10 October 2017, 09:56:33
If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 10 October 2017, 19:04:11
I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 10 October 2017, 22:34:53
I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Thanks. Carz tell me they will advise cost and get delivery details when they next have stock, but it sounds like it could be a few weeks.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Shackeng on 10 October 2017, 22:44:50
If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.

A long drive for a game of golf Terry. :o :y
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 11 October 2017, 17:49:28
If you want me to I can get them to Horspath (outskirts of Oxford) by Friday evening
That would be excellent, though I would not collect until the following Friday. I plan to collect Friday morning before golf. After golf I visit an old friend, then play table tennis at Culham Laboratory, then go to the Cherry Tree, Steventon, for a meal amd a chat, leaving about 10pm for home. If they could be at Horspath by Friday 20th that would be great.

A long drive for a game of golf Terry. :o :y
I've probably walked as far from the fairway looking for some of my balls :D
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 18 October 2017, 16:28:43
I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Is there any chance it will be in Horspath by Friday, TB?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 18 October 2017, 21:10:00
I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Is there any chance it will be in Horspath by Friday, TB?
I sent you a PM, with contact details. Cills are already there.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 18 October 2017, 21:41:26
I shall ask the questions, and see what I can do
Is there any chance it will be in Horspath by Friday, TB?
I sent you a PM, with contact details. Cills are already there.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: TheBoy on 19 October 2017, 18:54:46
Can you confirm you got the PM?  You will have to liaise with them for time, as they are not always in ;)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 21 October 2017, 20:17:26
We progress. We have welder, friend who can weld, and spare cills, courtesy of TB. Wire brushing around holes, it don't look too bad.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3x5tnpo2wlmrbw/CILLhole1.jpg?dl=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ey5ru5q12azw8sc/CILLhole2.jpg?dl=1)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 21 October 2017, 22:49:45
That needs cutting out or the rust will continue to spread.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 22 October 2017, 11:10:43
I shall need some car body steel sheet to practise welding on; what is it, and where might I buy it? Nick suggeste I get the supplier to chop it into 6" squares if possible.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 22 October 2017, 11:41:53
I bought some of ebay last year. If my memory serves 50cm x 50cm (2mm thickness ) was around 15.
But don't forget, cut that rusty stuff out completely before starting work on the car.  ;)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 22 October 2017, 11:55:51
I shall need some car body steel sheet to practise welding on; what is it, and where might I buy it? Nick suggeste I get the supplier to chop it into 6" squares if possible.


You're going to want steel sheet about 0.8mm thick for your repairs. I buy it from the local panel supplier, which is expensive, but I don't want lots of it getting in the way. They also sell lengths already folded, which can save a lot of fabrication effort and time.


I suggest 6" squares of the thickness you're going to use to practice on because they're easily managed, and give you plenty of edges to weld together. Buying a dozen  or so already sheared to size saves you time and effort that's better spent with the welder.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 22 October 2017, 12:04:07
I bought some of ebay last year. If my memory serves 50cm x 50cm (2mm thickness ) was around 15.
But don't forget, cut that rusty stuff out completely before starting work on the car.  ;)


cutting it all out before you've planned the repair and made some templates for the patches is asking for trouble ???
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Migv6 on 22 October 2017, 13:25:39
Ok, but you know what I'm getting at. Point being, don't leave it where it is and just weld over it.  ;)
I'm wondering about the thickness of metal I bought now. It could have been 1mm rather than 2. Cant remember tbh.  :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 23 October 2017, 07:29:54
This

www.frost.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=sheet%20steel

is where I get my sheet steel from. Terry has 6 Omegas, he's going to need it.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: aaronjb on 23 October 2017, 09:50:59
Frost are reliable (not that I've bought sheet materials off them - plenty of other things, though)  :y

I've used these folks for sheet material - https://www.themetalstore.co.uk/products/0-8mm-thick-mild-steel-sheet
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: neil74 on 23 October 2017, 14:19:02
Unfortunately I've got this to do on both of my sills and the front chassis legs and inside the nearside rear arch.  is it really worth the bother though???.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 23 October 2017, 21:03:41
Unfortunately I've got this to do on both of my sills and the front chassis legs and inside the nearside rear arch.  is it really worth the bother though???.
Omegas still represent cheap luxury motoring if you can maintain them yourself. When I bought my first Omega it was 4 years old and maintenance was easy, just servicing and minor repairs. Ten years later, rust and body repairs dominate. Repairs are possible, but unless I can do them myself, and enjoy doing them, the cars will have to go.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 23 October 2017, 22:28:51
My thanks to all for most helpful advice. Measuring the thickness of the metal in the cills I have borrowed from TB, 0.8mm, I ordered some 0.8mm mild steel sheet from The Metal Store on Sunday, cut to 6" squares, only to be advised today that the money did not transfer so I must ring in the morning.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 23 October 2017, 23:12:16
My thanks to all for most helpful advice. Measuring the thickness of the metal in the cills I have borrowed from TB, 0.8mm, I ordered some 0.8mm mild steel sheet from The Metal Store on Sunday, cut to 6" squares, only to be advised today that the money did not transfer so I must ring in the morning.


Terry, the squares are for practice NOT repairs :o


Doing a decent job of inner sills will probably need long, but narrow repair panels. It's always better to do large panels rather than the patchwork quilt approach. Which is why I would rather replace an entire sill than cut repairs out of one.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 24 October 2017, 20:58:18
My thanks to all for most helpful advice. Measuring the thickness of the metal in the cills I have borrowed from TB, 0.8mm, I ordered some 0.8mm mild steel sheet from The Metal Store on Sunday, cut to 6" squares, only to be advised today that the money did not transfer so I must ring in the morning.
My MOT garage just patched the rear end of the cill. To be fair, the rest of the cill was not bad. Did they patch over the old cill, or cut out and replace, I wonder?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/r24yjepno32m3jx/NScillREPAIR.jpg?dl=1)


Terry, the squares are for practice NOT repairs :o


Doing a decent job of inner sills will probably need long, but narrow repair panels. It's always better to do large panels rather than the patchwork quilt approach. Which is why I would rather replace an entire sill than cut repairs out of one.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: omega2018 on 24 October 2017, 22:04:01
shame you couldn't have a pic before the weld grinding and the paint. looks like the weld was nice and fat though if a bit wobbly.

If you just want a car to see you out it will be fine even if they didn't remove all the old plate, in fact probably stronger that way.  If you want the car to be around as a classic car you should liberally spray some rust treatment inside especially around the old plate. But then you'll need to do the other side and lots of other places.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 25 October 2017, 12:20:43
shame you couldn't have a pic before the weld grinding and the paint. looks like the weld was nice and fat though if a bit wobbly.

If you just want a car to see you out it will be fine even if they didn't remove all the old plate, in fact probably stronger that way.  If you want the car to be around as a classic car you should liberally spray some rust treatment inside especially around the old plate. But then you'll need to do the other side and lots of other places.
Now I am confused. All I want is a car to see me out. I appreciate welding a plate over existing is easier and a stronger result. Yet migv6, post #48 above, says all rust must be removed, suggesting otherwise it will spread like a canker. I shall of course replace the cill cover after the repair, so it need not look good.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 25 October 2017, 13:40:58
Can you confirm you got the PM?  You will have to liaise with them for time, as they are not always in ;)
PM sent.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: omega2018 on 25 October 2017, 19:33:50
shame you couldn't have a pic before the weld grinding and the paint. looks like the weld was nice and fat though if a bit wobbly.

If you just want a car to see you out it will be fine even if they didn't remove all the old plate, in fact probably stronger that way.  If you want the car to be around as a classic car you should liberally spray some rust treatment inside especially around the old plate. But then you'll need to do the other side and lots of other places.
Now I am confused. All I want is a car to see me out. I appreciate welding a plate over existing is easier and a stronger result. Yet migv6, post #48 above, says all rust must be removed, suggesting otherwise it will spread like a canker. I shall of course replace the cill cover after the repair, so it need not look good.

you removed all the loose rust.  the rest is protected from salt and spray behind the new steel.  I doubt it will fall apart anytime soonish.  maybe 10 years.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 31 October 2017, 19:52:58
Saturday son's friend Brummy, a professional welder, came round. Using my new kit, he welded a patch over my rusty cill, while I watched. Today the car passed its MOT; that's the last of my 6 Omegas through for this year.
My next job is to learn to weld myself for next year.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Fuse 19 on 01 November 2017, 10:13:56
I personally never patch over as it creates moisture traps and rots the top steel out fairly quickly.

Cut out and but weld or remove the full panel and fix as per the original manufacturers method.  :y
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 01 November 2017, 12:55:30
Me neither. Cut out all that's rotten or too thin to weld to, fresh steel, cardboard templates, joddle the edges if needed and don't forget to paint the back of the new metal before you weld it in.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 01 November 2017, 19:03:36
Thank you for your advice gentlemen. I shall bear it in mind. This car (2.6CDX  manual saloon) is 17 years old and does not owe me much. All my Omegas are now in need of  pre-MOT attention, hence my wish to master MIG welding. My 2 best bodied cars are the oldest - a 1999 2.5 pfl estate that spent some years in Portugal, and a 2000 fl estate, ex ajsphead, which again is strangely little rusty. My other 4 Omegas are saloons. Do other members find estates less rust prone than saloons? My great worry is rear shock absorber mountings, and I know they are different on saloons and estates.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Nick W on 01 November 2017, 19:30:08
Thank you for your advice gentlemen. I shall bear it in mind. This car (2.6CDX  manual saloon) is 17 years old and does not owe me much. All my Omegas are now in need of  pre-MOT attention, hence my wish to master MIG welding. My 2 best bodied cars are the oldest - a 1999 2.5 pfl estate that spent some years in Portugal, and a 2000 fl estate, ex ajsphead, which again is strangely little rusty. My other 4 Omegas are saloons. Do other members find estates less rust prone than saloons? My great worry is rear shock absorber mountings, and I know they are different on saloons and estates.


I'd be far more concerned about the chassis rails above the back of the front subframe; every Omega I've seen is getting pretty crusty there. And it's a horrible place just to patch up, let alone do a long lasting repair.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: neil74 on 01 November 2017, 23:19:10
The chassis rails above the middle subframe mounts need doing rather urgently on mine and its lucky that the subframes have six points to mount them to the car rather than four as it would have dropped off months ago.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 02 November 2017, 07:58:28
Thank you for your advice gentlemen. I shall bear it in mind. This car (2.6CDX  manual saloon) is 17 years old and does not owe me much. All my Omegas are now in need of  pre-MOT attention, hence my wish to master MIG welding. My 2 best bodied cars are the oldest - a 1999 2.5 pfl estate that spent some years in Portugal, and a 2000 fl estate, ex ajsphead, which again is strangely little rusty. My other 4 Omegas are saloons. Do other members find estates less rust prone than saloons? My great worry is rear shock absorber mountings, and I know they are different on saloons and estates.
I think they are all getting pretty rusty now. The difference is the owners who know about it and those who don't. I've just finished the rear turrets on mine. The steel is thick and a very hard formulation as you'd expect so there's a bit of leeway. It took a mixture of polycarbide disc in the angle grinder, flap wheel in the drill, various stone grinding wheels in the drill, dremel with flexi wand and 2 doses of de-oxidising compound, about 3 hours work in each turret before I was satisfied they were good enough for covering. Good opportunity to change the rear (tired) dampers too.

Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 02 November 2017, 08:42:47
It sounds like running Omegas as cheap luxury cars is time limited; that's a shame. Rear shocker turrets failing always seemed like a mortal affliction. Cills are replaceable. Now I learn front chassis rails are a problem too - are they the beams at the base of the windscreen?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 02 November 2017, 08:56:49
It sounds like running Omegas as cheap luxury cars is time limited; that's a shame. Rear shocker turrets failing always seemed like a mortal affliction. Cills are replaceable. Now I learn front chassis rails are a problem too - are they the beams at the base of the windscreen?
In a word... No :o

The chassis rails are what the front subframe bolts to ::)
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: terry paget on 02 November 2017, 20:53:47
Thank you for your advice gentlemen. I shall bear it in mind. This car (2.6CDX  manual saloon) is 17 years old and does not owe me much. All my Omegas are now in need of  pre-MOT attention, hence my wish to master MIG welding. My 2 best bodied cars are the oldest - a 1999 2.5 pfl estate that spent some years in Portugal, and a 2000 fl estate, ex ajsphead, which again is strangely little rusty. My other 4 Omegas are saloons. Do other members find estates less rust prone than saloons? My great worry is rear shock absorber mountings, and I know they are different on saloons and estates.
I think they are all getting pretty rusty now. The difference is the owners who know about it and those who don't. I've just finished the rear turrets on mine. The steel is thick and a very hard formulation as you'd expect so there's a bit of leeway. It took a mixture of polycarbide disc in the angle grinder, flap wheel in the drill, various stone grinding wheels in the drill, dremel with flexi wand and 2 doses of de-oxidising compound, about 3 hours work in each turret before I was satisfied they were good enough for covering. Good opportunity to change the rear (tired) dampers too.
Do I understand you removed all the surface rust from the inside of each turret, applied anti rust compound, and repainted?
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 03 November 2017, 07:41:09
Thank you for your advice gentlemen. I shall bear it in mind. This car (2.6CDX  manual saloon) is 17 years old and does not owe me much. All my Omegas are now in need of  pre-MOT attention, hence my wish to master MIG welding. My 2 best bodied cars are the oldest - a 1999 2.5 pfl estate that spent some years in Portugal, and a 2000 fl estate, ex ajsphead, which again is strangely little rusty. My other 4 Omegas are saloons. Do other members find estates less rust prone than saloons? My great worry is rear shock absorber mountings, and I know they are different on saloons and estates.
I think they are all getting pretty rusty now. The difference is the owners who know about it and those who don't. I've just finished the rear turrets on mine. The steel is thick and a very hard formulation as you'd expect so there's a bit of leeway. It took a mixture of polycarbide disc in the angle grinder, flap wheel in the drill, various stone grinding wheels in the drill, dremel with flexi wand and 2 doses of de-oxidising compound, about 3 hours work in each turret before I was satisfied they were good enough for covering. Good opportunity to change the rear (tired) dampers too.
Do I understand you removed all the surface rust from the inside of each turret, applied anti rust compound, and repainted?
Put simply yes. However removing the surface rust is not really a fair description. Basically if it's black or brown grind it out leaving nothing but shiny metal. Using a grinding disc in an angle grinder is far too clumsy and removes too much good metal so you have to get a real arsenal of bits together and that's where the dremel comes in, and most of the time is taken. I use a de-oxidising compound formulated for industrial use to convert any black specks that are then getting too tricky to grind out and don't apply rust converter until I cannot see any more black bits. Sometimes the pits you leave in the metal are quite deep so you can then pulse weld and grind them level again.

The rust converter I use is also a good primer, followed by 2 pack epoxy in 1 or 2 coats depending on where it is, stonechip over that then Schutz over that. If it's a cavity, wax inject it as well. If you have to weld in new metal you can drill a hole in it to allow for injecting then close with a suitable grommet. I believe in only doing a job once, particularly if it's a filthy one.
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: robson on 03 November 2017, 09:23:48
want to do mine ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hole in cill pre MOT
Post by: ajsphead on 03 November 2017, 10:06:08
No, not really. Didn't want to do mine and I still have to drop the tank out and do about 4ft of rear valance. When I said I only do a job once that was once period. However I probably will have the least rusty Omega on the road once I've finished.