Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: Raeturbo on 10 June 2018, 21:24:14

Title: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 10 June 2018, 21:24:14
I wonder if any one on here would like to give me a price to replace my head gaskets
On my 2003 3.2 omega MV6 estate. Cheers Rae.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: biggriffin on 10 June 2018, 22:00:40
I'll start then,, are you sure it's the head gaskets. Very rare on a 3.2, has the oil cooler been checked.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 11 June 2018, 00:01:02
I'll start then,, are you sure it's the head gaskets. Very rare Unheard of on a 3.2, has the oil cooler been checked.

Fixed. ;)
What are the symptoms that make you think its head gaskets ?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 11 June 2018, 00:07:02
I was expecting that ha ha, yes unfortunately my top hose blew off on a very spirited drive lost all water and it got hot as hell before i noticed, the expansion tank is bubbling and it turns over for ages before it starts and it don't sound right turning over until it starts. Don't sound too bad when it does start though and the exhaust is clean no steam or smoke.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 June 2018, 01:37:05
Has the water pump been removed and checked?

Likewise the thermostat...
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 11 June 2018, 07:48:47
It sounds like its down on compression the way it's turning over and taking a long time to start.
That and the bubbling is pretty convincing to me, i am sure it's gone (not my first HG failure by far).  Anyone fancy doing it?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: BazaJT on 11 June 2018, 07:49:35
Before going in for surgery I think I'd get a "sniff test" done shouldn't cost much at all for a garage to do this and then you'd know if exhaust gases were getting to header tank.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: dave the builder on 11 June 2018, 09:11:48
Before going in for surgery I think I'd get a "sniff test" done shouldn't cost much at all for a garage to do this and then you'd know if exhaust gases were getting to header tank.
DIY kit available for sniff test for £11 delivered
link clicky (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-1-COMBUSTION-LEAK-TESTER-KIT-CO2-PETROL-HEAD-GASKET-TEST-FLUID-BLOCK-15d/272706523301?epid=527962631&hash=item3f7e9350a5:g:vA8AAOSw4DJYi63f)
saves the faf of booking garage time  :)
worth having if you collect head gaskets for garage wall art e.g
  (not my first HG failure by far). 
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 June 2018, 09:46:44
Unless you have been a complete ladybits to your car since the day you bought it, then it will be pretty much the first 3.2 head gasket failure recorded in history...

Start with the basics...
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: RobseyMV6 on 11 June 2018, 09:59:10
If not head gasket and its cooked, you split the piston liner, if it's not doing what it should when was starting /running before... I wouldn't waste time doing head gasket... replace the engine save money and time....

I can do both and have engines here...

Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 11 June 2018, 17:49:22
Thank Rob but that sounds very expensive please pm me a price mate. Ps
Radio works fine ::)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 11 June 2018, 21:10:07
Just as some advice, what would be a reasonable price for head gasket replacement
plus or minus a couple of hundred?
Gives me a chance to think of what to do next?
Shame is I havenít had it long and Iíve spent over a grand on it without what it cost me to buy!
Iíve always wanted one but maybe Iíve pissed it away. As for the ladybits, Iíve got a 400bhp
Evo2 for hooning about in which I regularly track. (Mind you Iíve broken it a few times using it
As it was built for).
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: RobseyMV6 on 11 June 2018, 21:36:16
Will cost any way you go... Might save £100 by head gaskets but might be block split so could pay twice easy. I would drop another lump in it. Easier by far.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 11 June 2018, 22:13:37
Please forgive me for making my usual suggestion, but may I recommend a brilliant garage owner who is a well-respected member on here too?
Serek (SOS.automotive) in Huntingdon. Don't be frightened of the distance, it will be worth it.
Of course, you will need to message him privately first as I cannot speak for him.

Ron.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 June 2018, 22:39:42
Robsey will be probably be quicker and nearer to boot.

I suspect that it will also be a genuine lowish mileage lump too ;)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 11 June 2018, 23:01:17
Speak as Iíve found......, seems to be pretty good this forum, and Iím very grateful for all the replies,
been a member Autobahnstormers for many years now and thatís a real good un too, as Iím sure many in here know only too well. I will be weighing up the options and see what I decide.

As a few no doubt have been in this predicament their selves after spending out and having to either
Fork out or let it go for peanuts, Iím sure you will understand my dilemma.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 June 2018, 00:00:32
If you like it, and have some time in it then get it fixed...

A full service and a set of tyres doubles the values of most Omegas, and that's before you add fuel...

If it's a complete shitter, and about a month from its last mot then bin it...

Simples ;)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 12 June 2018, 00:16:23
Agreed but itís had two new engine mountains, new discs and pads all round, new tyres all round, two new wishbones, new thermostat and cam belt kit, all new filters, plugs, new ignition packs each side, lpg service, two oil and filter changes, new Ariel, and radio, long mot,  blah blah, what I forgot,
I really wanted it right, but there we are.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 June 2018, 00:26:54
Then fix it ::)

That's to say take Rob up on his offer ;)

I know he has a couple of engines on the shelf which will suit your needs ;)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 12 June 2018, 07:51:10
Or properly investigate the problem with your own engine. At least do a compression test. Seems crazy to swap engines without properly diagnosing what is wrong with the original.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: TheBoy on 12 June 2018, 10:05:32
I'd pressure test or sniff test first, then go from there.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: zirk on 12 June 2018, 18:41:59
Whilst I agree with the Oil Cooler and Pressure / Sniff test as being first call, I do know from experience that a rapid coolant being dumped when up to normal temp can kill these engines within a few mins.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 June 2018, 19:24:01
Or properly investigate the problem with your own engine. At least do a compression test. Seems crazy to swap engines without properly diagnosing what is wrong with the original.
The thing is Albs, that you could waste a weekend and a couple of hundred quid swapping the head gaskets (not likely to be the real issue on this engine notwithstanding) only to find that it's still donald because the crank has spun a bearing or worse...

Swapping the engine can be done in an afternoon for the same parts cost as a pair of new head gaskets. Dead engine can then be stripped and rebuilt at leisure.  ;)

Ignoring the sarcastic comment about the radio still working if the thermostat has stuck shut or the water pump has failed, then coolant won't flow, and will get hot. If it can't expand within the system then it will build pressure and blow a hose. The top hose is almost always the one that goes as it's the largest diameter and can therefore stretch to a greater degree allowing a much higher burst pressure.

This could even have been caused by something as simple as a £5 expansion tank cap failing...
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 14 June 2018, 09:53:14
No, Zirk is right, catastrophic head gasket failiure
Due to dumping all the water quickly whilst I was
Pulling hard uphill. Spun a bearing? No chance,
Engine is running very nicely once it starts if I leave
The cap very loose, the moment I rev it a little though
It bubbles violently, itís gone, hopefully because
It happened so quickly maybe thatís all it is and
no warping or splits etc, radio will still work even
with thermostat gone but thankfully canít get radio
one ha ha. But on serious note I donít know if
I can justify spending any more hard earned on
her now :'(
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 14 June 2018, 11:26:12
I will believe its head gasket failure when I see pics of the failed gasket. Not trying to offend, just aware it has never been known on a 2.6/ 3.2 engine.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Nick W on 14 June 2018, 13:11:01
I will believe its head gasket failure when I see pics of the failed gasket. Not trying to offend, just aware it has never been known on a 2.6/ 3.2 engine.


That makes it unlikely, not impossible. And the reported symptoms ARE those of a catastrophic HG failure.


Doing a leak down test would be my next step (actually several steps ago)  to actually diagnose the problem properly, rather than rely on OOF dogma.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Alnico Blue on 14 June 2018, 13:22:16
I will believe its head gasket failure when I see pics of the failed gasket. Not trying to offend, just aware it has never been known on a 2.6/ 3.2 engine.


That makes it unlikely, not impossible. And the reported symptoms ARE those of a catastrophic HG failure.


Doing a leak down test would be my next step (actually several steps ago)  to actually diagnose the problem properly, rather than rely on OOF dogma.

Agreed ,  along with a couple of others here , 2.6 /3.2 HG failure is really unheard of ,not to say there has never been any though.  But  basic testing , as suggested, will make things much clearer rather than "guessing".
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 14 June 2018, 20:35:43
While I appreciate all the help and comments
here, I must stress I have a fair bit of experience
of failures. This is chuffing out of the tank visibly
when reved and stinks of petrol, itís failed.  Itís coming apart
pictures will be posted when we get there.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 21 June 2018, 21:17:00
Hi Folks,

Whilst I 100% agree we should put work in the way of the well known, excellent mechanics on the forum, please don't forget that I occasionally do free repairs for members,  and V6 Engine trouble is right up my street :y

I've agreed to sort this car out for Rae Free of Charge (apart from the cost of any parts).

The car has been trailered to me, and is on my drive.

I haven't done much more than the initial investigation work, so I'll keep it brief.

The car is a pig to start, and only goes eventially at WOT.

As soon as it starts, it does appear to idle OK on all six.

Immediately, with no delay, there is huge pressure in the cooling system.

The header tank overwhelmingly smells of petrol.

The Dipstick, looks like this:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2.jpg)

This suggests the issue is not an oil cooler failure. (which manifests itself in oil in the coolant, not the other way around).


I then, began stripping parts out of the way to enable access for a compression test.

The engine to begin with looked like this. I noted upon opening the bonnet that it has LPG:


(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/1.jpg)


So, plenum off:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/3.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/4.jpg)


Off with the LPG Injectors

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/5.jpg)


Off with the inlet manifold, with LPG vapour hoses attached:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/6.jpg)


Engine, without these parts attached, now looks like this:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/7.jpg)


Interestingly, the rear multi-ram actuator was not attached to the Plenum and floating loose. It also looks different to ones I have seen before:


(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/8.jpg)



Off with the main servo vaccum hose:


(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/9.jpg)


Oil Filler Cap:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/10.jpg)

2-4-6 cable tray:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/11.jpg)


This next part made me laugh out loud. 10 out of ten for effort :D

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/12.jpg)

You see above that the coil pack is held down with a bracket of metal across the cam cover bolts, and a block of wood. My first thought, was, maybe the bolts that are supposed to hold it in, were stripped, or lost. (More on this later).

Here are the coil packs. They look in good enough nick, bit of damp has got to one of them but not harmed it.

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/13.jpg)


1-3-5 Spark Plugs

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/14.jpg)

2-4-6 Spark Plugs

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/15.jpg)


Now, out with the compression tester:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/16.jpg)

And here are the readings:

Driver Side

Cyl1

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl1.jpg)

Cly3

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl3.jpg)

Cyl5

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl5.jpg)



Passenger Side

Cyl2

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl2.jpg)

Cly4

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl4.jpg)

Cyl6

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/cyl6.jpg)


That's where I finished for part one.

The engine currently looks like this:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/20.jpg)


I'm doing this for Rae on the understanding that it will take me a little bit of time, as I'm currently doing two weeks physiotherapy and for both work and physical health reasons I can only dip in for a couple of hours at a time.


Interestingly, the block of wood on the nearside head, is because there are no bolt holes for the coil pack to bolt on to.

This means that the head is from an early, non DBW V6 engine, so it has had surgery before.

I also note upon a quick look that the 2-4-6 inlet cam is a "G" cam, meaning that camshaft is from a 3.0 and not a 3.2.

I'd be interested in the history leading up to that, but probably will never find out.

Also need to check the T vents are from a later model, as they do vary.

Updates to follow.

Kind regards,
James
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 21 June 2018, 21:20:53
The plot thickens.  :-\
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 21 June 2018, 21:21:55
There is also further evidence of coolant contamination into the oil, as follows:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/17.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/18.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/19.jpg)

Edit: If you've just arrived here on this old thread - there are more pics and explanation on the previous page.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: dave the builder on 21 June 2018, 21:32:30
Welcome back James  :)
Great work so far
I hate it when i take an engine apart and find it's been bodged together in the past  :(

did you finish the corsa ?

hope your feeling better ?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 21 June 2018, 21:33:54
Well James, firstly it's great to hear that you are being active, albeit in a moderate way. If anyone can sort this, you can.
Secondly, we have discussed your work with a camera previously and by today's evidence, you have excelled yourself; I don't think a commercial studio could have done better.
Take care James.  :) :y 8)

Ron.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 21 June 2018, 21:42:59
I should add, that, the LPG plumbing needs attention.

Currently, it's plumbed in Post-Heater-Bypass-Valve. This means, that, the vaporisor will only get a heat supply, if the heater settings in the cabin are set to HI.

If the heater is set to of, or cool, the LPG evaporator won't get enough coolant and thus the LPG won't work properly.

Ideal time to rectify and re plub that while it's apart and access is good. I also plan to replace the LPG vapour hoses - I think I have some in the garage, and the current ones are quite brittle.

Aside of the Evaporator plumbing, (an easy mistake for someone that doesn't know this V6 too well, so far it does look like quite a tidy install :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 21 June 2018, 21:44:48

did you finish the corsa ?

hope your feeling better ?

Cheers,  The progress is slow, but my physio is keen for me to keep doing car bits even if it's just very short amounts - just to keep things moving.

Corsa wise, yep, got it running a treat, just haven't felt like posting for a while. I'll update that thread separately with a few pictures in the near future

Kind regards,
James
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 21 June 2018, 22:07:47
Must say I was overwhelmed by James kind offer and feel Ďone of the lucky ones Ď
especially as Iím pretty new here!  I was impressed when I read about his past
work and by what Iíve seen so far he seems very capable and thorough.
to be honest Iím pretty excited now by all these faults that heís finding as
of course the more he finds the better it will be when itís done
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 24 June 2018, 12:02:53
Just to add - I canít easily photograph it, but, you can see coolant in most of the cylinders by looking down the spark plug holes.

When turning the engine over for a compression test, you can see it spraying out of the plug holes:

https://youtu.be/-ZAvMJ0ZEk0

OR

Www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/video.MOV

If this were a cracked head, I canít see that water would be able to get into nearly all of the pots on both banks.

That would be a lot of cracks and too many co-incodences.

My money is on the fact itís got so hot itís cooked to the point that itís warped both heads.

Rare I know but, itís an ally head on a steel block, if itís driven for long enough without coolant, itís not indestructible.

The only way I can see coolant getting into that many cylinders before loosening head bolts, is from the water jacket to the pots, via head gasket / warpage.

Hopefully I will be able to save it :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 24 June 2018, 16:25:22
Lots of components removed yesterday as part of the stripdown.

Started with the Auxiliary belt, which looks in good nick

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/1.jpg)

I did however notice after this, that the wire for the 1-3-5 knock sensor has been incorrectly routed in the past. This one comes out by the alternator - which has caused it to chafe on the auxiliary belt tensioner pully.

It should really between the aux tensioner and the rear cambelt cover to prevent it going near any belts. But never mind, it's easy to get at with the amount being stripped, and I might even have a spare.

Next step, removal of the front cable tray, and the crank, water pump, and power steering pulleys:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/3.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/4.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/5.jpg)

And then the aux belt tensioner, with pulley still attached. This needs taking apart and greasing, as it runs very freely - which I shall do.

Off with the outer cambelt cover:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/7.jpg)

To expose the cambelt set up

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/8.jpg)

A quick check of the valve timing shows it to be a little out, but nothing to get excited about and nothing that would be contributing to this engine's problems

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/9.jpg)

Engine now set to 60deg BTDC so the pistons are all in a safe position. Then, removal of the cambelt kit:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/10.jpg)

Leaves us looking like this:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/11.jpg)

Off with the 4 x camshaft toothed pulleys:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/12.jpg)

And the rear, metal cambelt cover

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/13.jpg)

To leave us looking like this:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/14.jpg)

All 4 camshafts removed, along with their respective bearing shells

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/15.jpg)


Leaving the engine looking as follows:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/16.jpg)

Now the 24 x hydraulic valve followers:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/17.jpg)

Leaving the engine bay looking like:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/18.jpg)


I decided at this point, to raise the car and drop the downpipes off. Made sense in my head, beacuse I didn't want to lye underneith it after I'd removed the water pump and piddled the coolant all over the ground ::)

Three of the downpipe-to-manifold nuts came away without any drama using a series of extension bars and a breaker bar, after a soak in some plusgas.

The fourth one, however, didn't play. The socket slipped over the nut, resulting in the breaker bar smashing me in the face, and waking up today with a shiner ;D

Anyhow, it was nothing that my faithful irwin socket and a lump hammer couldn't sort out, so the exhaust is now off. No pictures of this, didn't want to take my phone under the car just in case!

Next step was removal of the water pump for inspection. It's fine, the impellor turns with the spindle with no play or leaks or roughness.

It looks new, and will probably get reused, hence the block of wood used to knock it off via the body of the pump, and not the spindle:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/19.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/20.jpg)

The red sealant around the pump wasn't needed, but, equally wasn't doing any harm.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 24 June 2018, 16:25:50
Now off with the inlet divider between the two heads:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/21.jpg)

Giving us a good look into the "V" of the engine:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/22.jpg)

B@stid bolt removed, and thermostat link pipe taken out. Managed to get it out in one peice, though you may notice there is some corrosoion damage to the end of it near where the first O ring sits.

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/23.jpg)

Thermostat off:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/24.jpg)

This stat is pretty new. I will test it in a pan just in case it was the cause of the problem, but, I'm pretty sure it will be able to be re used with a new O ring.

Here we remove the rear breather box hose. I say remove, it was so brittle, it fell apart in my hands, and is gunged up. I'll replace this, along with the obvious full breather clean out:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/25.jpg)

And here is the purge valve, to the carbon canister, removed and in the boot:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/26.jpg)

I Removed the coolant bridge, bolts, and associated pipework incl HBV, but forgot to picture that.


Now, ready to start lifing off the heads.

The 2-4-6 head is the best one to remove first.

So, undoing the bolts on the 2-4-6 head:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/27.jpg)

My preference, once the head bolts are loose, is, to sit facing the engine, resting my feet on the anti-roll bar, lift off the head, and place it on some carpet or similar over on the drivers side.


Like so:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/28.jpg)

Leaving the block looking something like:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/29.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/30.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/31.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/32.jpg)


Now that head is off, and out of the way, it's much easier to get access to the bolts holding in the big metal coolant pipe that runs over the 1-3-5 cylinder head.

here is this pipe, out of the way. Rather than undoing hoses I just took the header tank with it:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/33.jpg)

Engine bay looking quite bare now. Worth noting, the fuel pipes had been covered and tucked away under the header tank, so were only momentarily exposed:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/34.jpg)

And now we are ready to lift the 1-3-5 head off. You'll note, these cylinders were all full of water, too:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/35.jpg)

Here are shots of both sides of each of the head gaskets:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/36.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/37.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/38.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/39.jpg)

Here is the underside of both heads:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/40.jpg)

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/41.jpg)

A rather empty looking engine bay:

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/42.jpg)

And a boot full of parts!

(http://www.jamesv6cdx.co.uk/Rae/2/43.jpg)

I'm about to go out and oil spray / wrap up the cams etc in cling film to prevent any rust while I'm away for a few days.

Next step is to remove the manifolds and check the heads with a straight edge and some feeler blades.

I may or may not get chance to do that today
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Shackeng on 24 June 2018, 16:36:21
Lovely job as usual James. :y Is it OK to skim these heads if not too badly warped? :-\
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 24 June 2018, 16:42:19
Lovely job as usual James. :y Is it OK to skim these heads if not too badly warped? :-\

Generally yes, but, it can cause issues with making the bolt holes on the inlet divider no longer line up properly.

Don't ask me how I know  ::)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 24 June 2018, 16:48:36
Wow, that looks a hell of a lot of work! I thought you werenít  well?  Wish I could do that even when Iím in tip top condition. Canít thank you enough for your efforts James, but Iím going to try :)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 24 June 2018, 16:52:57
Wow, that looks a hell of a lot of work! I thought you werenít  well?

It was a few hours work, with breaks, which is my limit. I wouldn't be able to do that again, for another fair few days, and will suffer for it - whereas before my injuries, I could have done it for 12 hours a day, every day.

Have to be positive, though, being able to do that now and again, is a much better outcome than not at all :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 24 June 2018, 16:58:29
Iíd be well happy with that performance mate!
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Shackeng on 24 June 2018, 17:39:05
Lovely job as usual James. :y Is it OK to skim these heads if not too badly warped? :-\

Generally yes, but, it can cause issues with making the bolt holes on the inlet divider no longer line up properly.

Don't ask me how I know  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 24 June 2018, 20:35:38
Something has obviously gone catastrophically wrong in that engine. Any diagnosis on what the cause was yet ?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: BazaJT on 24 June 2018, 20:57:30
Ace photos and a detailed write up of the processes will I'm sure be a great help to others in future.I too am fascinated to know what went so very wrong as to cause this[it's like back in the Saturday matinee where the "hero" was left hanging over a cliff or something and you had to go back next week to find out if/how he escaped :)] while it's good therapy for you don't go overdoing things and take care of yourself :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 24 June 2018, 21:21:28
If Haynes ever want somone to write a PROPER manual, James..... :y 8)

Ron.

P.S. Excellent photos, too.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: LC0112G on 24 June 2018, 21:44:24
I do like a thread with some mucky photos.

More to the point, I could understand a CHG letting go and water ending up in 1 or 3 or 5, or 2 or 4 or 6, but in all 6 on both sides of the V? For the CHG to be the culprit that means all 6 fire rings must fail which is a vanishingly unlikely scenario.

None of the pistons have been "steam cleaned" so water hasn't been getting into the bores for very long and then got suddenly worse. One warped hear would be careless - two ?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Andy H on 24 June 2018, 22:47:14
I do like a thread with some mucky photos.

More to the point, I could understand a CHG letting go and water ending up in 1 or 3 or 5, or 2 or 4 or 6, but in all 6 on both sides of the V? For the CHG to be the culprit that means all 6 fire rings must fail which is a vanishingly unlikely scenario.

None of the pistons have been "steam cleaned" so water hasn't been getting into the bores for very long and then got suddenly worse. One warped hear would be careless - two ?
I have been puzzled by that one :-\ Presumably both cylinder heads would have been subjected to the same temperature though so no surprise that both should behave the same.......

Does the 54 degree V6 use cylinder liners? IF it does it possible for the engine to got so hot that all 6 liners can drop? :-\
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 24 June 2018, 23:46:33
I do like a thread with some mucky photos.

More to the point, I could understand a CHG letting go and water ending up in 1 or 3 or 5, or 2 or 4 or 6, but in all 6 on both sides of the V? For the CHG to be the culprit that means all 6 fire rings must fail which is a vanishingly unlikely scenario.

None of the pistons have been "steam cleaned" so water hasn't been getting into the bores for very long and then got suddenly worse. One warped hear would be careless - two ?
Can only presume that that car has been abused to death for it's entire life...  :-\
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 25 June 2018, 00:04:57
Could have been, Iíve owned it for a few months and in that time  Iíve spent loads on it, between the time itís been worked on and the time itís been used I bet I havenít even covered 500 miles in her yet!
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Kevin Wood on 25 June 2018, 07:27:39
I'm wondering if most of that water ran out of the heads when they were removed.

I can't see an engine making half decent compression on a tester, and running at all, yet having head gaskets that let water dribble into all 6 cylinders. Fire rings look intact too, or at least not obviously knackered, from this distance.

I'd say the main failure has been between the water jacket and an oilway, looking at the mayo buildup. As we know, that's not a likely head gasket failure on these engines, so I'd be checking the heads over very carefully.

Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2018, 08:26:42
I'm wondering if most of that water ran out of the heads when they were removed.

I can't see an engine making half decent compression on a tester, and running at all, yet having head gaskets that let water dribble into all 6 cylinders. Fire rings look intact too, or at least not obviously knackered, from this distance.

I'd say the main failure has been between the water jacket and an oilway, looking at the mayo buildup. As we know, that's not a likely head gasket failure on these engines, so I'd be checking the heads over very carefully.

The thing is though, I could see water in almost all of the cylinders through the plug holes before loosening the head bolts. And it was spraying water from all of the plug holes during compression test  :-\

I want to change the 246 head anyway for one that accepts a coil pack. I think the solution here is two known good used heads, given how reliable they usually are, rather than try to salvage two cooked ones.

I donít think the head gaskets have failed at all. They are multi layer steel.
I think the alloy heads have warped when it overheated causing the issues
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Kevin Wood on 25 June 2018, 09:21:48
Yes, or the heads have cracked, likely into the valve ports so it doesn't affect running too badly.

Either way, a pair of decent heads is the best solution, given that one's already been bodged.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Nick W on 25 June 2018, 09:46:02
I would check the block faces very carefully before spending any money.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Andy B on 25 June 2018, 09:48:29
.....

None of the pistons have been "steam cleaned" so ....

I used to have a picture of No 6 piston of my Senator when its head gasket let go ..... it looked like brand new  :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2018, 09:51:32
I would check the block faces very carefully before spending any money.

Indeed, straight edge and feelers?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: henryd on 25 June 2018, 10:27:43
I would check the block faces very carefully before spending any money.

Indeed, straight edge and feelers?

Straight edge and a good light source behind will do as well :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 25 June 2018, 12:35:16
So, it wasn't head gasket failure. We still await the first case to appear.
Choice of changing the heads or the hole engine I suppose. Depends if block and bottom end are in decent condition.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2018, 12:41:22
So, it wasn't head gasket failure. We still await the first case to appear.
Choice of changing the heads or the hole engine I suppose. Depends if block and bottom end are in decent condition.

An old fashioned style head gasket failure, where the gasket deteriorates through poor coolant maintenance and age, is almost impossible, on the 2.6 and 3.2 - due to the multi layer steel gasket as we all know.

The more accurate phrase in this case should probably be ďhead failureĒ rather than HGF :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2018, 12:43:04
It ticks over lovely, so as long as the block surface is true then some replacement heads will see a good, cheap and lasting repair :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: LC0112G on 25 June 2018, 13:29:46
It ticks over lovely, so as long as the block surface is true then some replacement heads will see a good, cheap and lasting repair :y

But the sump is going to be full of water/mayo mix, so that's going to have to come off for a good clean? And once the sump is off you may as well take a look at the main and big end bearings? I mean, how long has the engine been running for with mayo for lubricant?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 June 2018, 13:45:23
A known good lump is a far more efficient solution...

Both financially and temporally... But that was ruled out on day 1 ::)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 June 2018, 17:52:33
A known good lump is a far more efficient solution...

Both financially and temporally... But that was ruled out on day 1 ::)

What's efficient for one, may not be efficient for another. Factors to consider are

Rae has another car, so isn't under time pressure to get this one running.

He is not having to pay any labour whatsoever for this repair, because I'm not charging him anything. I also have various gaskets and seals in stock, which are no good to me, which I will donate to him, further reducing his parts cost.

In contrast, Rae was quoted £600 to have another engine fitted by a different member.

Assuming we need new heads, a proven second hand pair (If I don't already have any in the garage) will cost £50 to £75. On top of this, we only need head gaskets and bolts and maybe the odd O ring (I think I have most of it). His cam cover seals are GM and supple as new, and can be re used.

On this basis, parts cost is likely to be sub £150.

The cost of consumables like oil and coolant, are irrelevant as you'd need to replace these additionally, in either scenario.

Of course I will check the bottom end and take it apart for a clean, but, on the balance of probabilities, I doubt there's any lower end issues.

In a nutshell, labour isn't a factor, or a cost, because it's something I enjoy and don't charge for.

I'm optimistic of a lasting, decent repair on this engine, so if this can be achieved for sub £200 in parts, how is this more cost effective than paying £600 to have a second hand one fitted?

In my mind, given that he can live without the car and doesn't have to pay me, he's saving £400.

The fact the car is 15 years and 200,000 miles old is also another factor in the "might as well have a bash" repair option. There's literally nothing to lose.

There are also other factors to consider, in that, what is efficient for one, isn't for another. For example, whilst I can change the heads, it's a job that is right on the upper level of what my injury allows me to do, from a physical point of view. I don't have facilities for lifting engines, and, if I did, I still wouldn't be able to cope with the really heavy stuff such as mating the new engine to the gearbox bellhousing, and so forth. I also don't see having to then take the replacement engine to the dump and all of that malarkey as efficient either.

Can we not go back to the good old OOF days? I can remember when one member helped another, for nothing more than the love of being an enthusiast, and it was discussed on here, the threads were full of nothing but support, banter, and encouragement for those concerned. That doesn't seem to be quite the case, anymore
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Alnico Blue on 25 June 2018, 18:10:39
A known good lump is a far more efficient solution...

Both financially and temporally... But that was ruled out on day 1 ::)

What's efficient for one, may not be efficient for another. Factors to consider are

Rae has another car, so isn't under time pressure to get this one running.

He is not having to pay any labour whatsoever for this repair, because I'm not charging him anything. I also have various gaskets and seals in stock, which are no good to me, which I will donate to him, further reducing his parts cost.

In contrast, Rae was quoted £600 to have another engine fitted by a different member.

Assuming we need new heads, a proven second hand pair (If I don't already have any in the garage) will cost £50 to £75. On top of this, we only need head gaskets and bolts and maybe the odd O ring (I think I have most of it). His cam cover seals are GM and supple as new, and can be re used.

On this basis, parts cost is likely to be sub £150.

The cost of consumables like oil and coolant, are irrelevant as you'd need to replace these additionally, in either scenario.

Of course I will check the bottom end and take it apart for a clean, but, on the balance of probabilities, I doubt there's any lower end issues.

In a nutshell, labour isn't a factor, or a cost, because it's something I enjoy and don't charge for.

I'm optimistic of a lasting, decent repair on this engine, so if this can be achieved for sub £200 in parts, how is this more cost effective than paying £600 to have a second hand one fitted?

In my mind, given that he can live without the car and doesn't have to pay me, he's saving £400.

The fact the car is 15 years and 200,000 miles old is also another factor in the "might as well have a bash" repair option. There's literally nothing to lose.

There are also other factors to consider, in that, what is efficient for one, isn't for another. For example, whilst I can change the heads, it's a job that is right on the upper level of what my injury allows me to do, from a physical point of view. I don't have facilities for lifting engines, and, if I did, I still wouldn't be able to cope with the really heavy stuff such as mating the new engine to the gearbox bellhousing, and so forth. I also don't see having to then take the replacement engine to the dump and all of that malarkey as efficient either.

Can we not go back to the good old OOF days? I can remember when one member helped another, for nothing more than the love of being an enthusiast, and it was discussed on here, the threads were full of nothing but support, banter, and encouragement for those concerned. That doesn't seem to be quite the case, anymore

With you 110% on your last paragraph James ,  nowadays on here there always seems to someone who wants to , for want of a better phrase, "pi*s on your bonfire"  . IMO pretty sure thats one of the reasons numbers have dwindled on here. 

Good luck with this project , as its making great reading for a majority on here, & the owner of the said 3.2 must be delighted with your kind gesture of helping him .  . .
OOf at its best  . . just like the old days eh ?  :y :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: cam.in.head on 25 June 2018, 18:56:26
Seconded. Whereís the fun in fitting a replacement,possibly unknown engine that may have issues. Much better and more enjoyable to repair existing one providing it is repairable.nowadays it seems to be a throw away society. People would much rather replace something because itís easier rather than repair it.i personally am an enthusiast of what I like and beleive in and would much rather spend a whole day repairing Anything  even if a new one is cheap..even when I have to buy a new part for something I usually take it apart if I can to make sure itís ok.wheel cylinders as an example.old stock items of anything could have been on a shelf for years and look perfect from the outside only to be rusty inside. Many people would fit new parts straight out of the box and have to replace them again a short while after.
Back on thread. Keep up the good work James.you are doing a great job and itís relaxing too. Because itís something you enjoy and leads you to the end result. .....
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: jonathanh on 25 June 2018, 19:01:26
Am reading with interest.....

hope you get to the bottom of what went wrong:  was it a poor repair  or the overheating that caused the failure.  Interested in what you discover either way.

and yes I'm with you on repairing things when you can (there can be downsides, I seem to have collected 4 washing machines including the one I replaced the drum bearings on for the fun of it...)

car's are similar: can't seem to wear them out as it is almost always cheaper and easier to fix them and keep them running

Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: cam.in.head on 25 June 2018, 19:18:13
Thatís why you never see car enthusiasts with just 1 car !   Itís addictive !
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 25 June 2018, 19:25:15
Although I'm not a veteran member, I can cerainly remember the earlier times when OOF was not infected with those inadequates with low IQs who think that sniping at and belittling others makes them seem superior. It doesn't, and we can do without them, before they drive away any more good members.
We are all here to give and receive help and make friends too, as I certainly have - see my "Grand Day Out" post, for example.
It's a privilege to know you, James. And others. of course.  :y :) 8)

Ron.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Andy B on 25 June 2018, 19:38:26
Thatís why you never see car enthusiasts with just 1 car !   Itís addictive !

There are 4 cars here  :-[ plus my daughter's
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 25 June 2018, 20:04:54
Oh so itís not just me then, I had an inkling there was a certain member (member) stirring things up albeit Iím new here, as for him maybe itís better if he comments on other threads and leave the OP (my) thread alone, as said Iím very happy with James doing the job for me as anyone else would be too, and seeing it worked on like this is giving me pleasure
 even in the event that it canít be fixed, I wanted to keep my engine if possible and if it turns out I can then there could be no better outcome however I reckon whatever Goes wrong James will advise me the next steps and Iím sure he will be able to fix it anyway. Iím all for a happy helpful forum, Iím a member of the Mitsubishi Lancer register and that I feel is going downhill a bit too with all the sniping seems like a sign of the times...

Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 25 June 2018, 20:05:47
Oh and I have 5 vehicles   8)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 25 June 2018, 21:40:25
Fair play for your efforts James :y

If you have the time and bits to do it for nowt, then that clearly alters the numbers somewhat...

Hopefully a pair of heads will see it sorted and back up and running soon enough  :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Carfix on 26 June 2018, 10:40:15
A great post James. Keep it coming. :y

I particularly like all the photos you take. I wish I had the patience to do that when I take my cars to bit.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: terry paget on 04 July 2018, 10:04:25
I can no longer see James' excellent pictures. Is the fault at my end, or elsewhere?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: dave the builder on 04 July 2018, 10:11:17
I can no longer see James' excellent pictures. Is the fault at my end, or elsewhere?
I can't see them either ,maybe a host issue
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 04 July 2018, 13:00:23
I can no longer see James' excellent pictures. Is the fault at my end, or elsewhere?
I can't see them either ,maybe a host issue

Sorry was an issue with my server. Should be ok now?
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: terry paget on 04 July 2018, 14:19:37
I can no longer see James' excellent pictures. Is the fault at my end, or elsewhere?
I can't see them either ,maybe a host issue

Sorry was an issue with my server. Should be ok now?
Thanks James. Normal service has been resumed.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 05 July 2018, 16:12:38
Does anyone know offhand the size of the dowty washers?

Parts and seals for this GM V6 model are getting more scarce these days  :-[
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 05 July 2018, 17:11:04
Try the US if you get stuck... This lump is relatively widely used there ;)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 05 July 2018, 19:51:51
 :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: kcl on 06 July 2018, 06:44:48
Does anyone know offhand the size of the dowty washers?

Parts and seals for this GM V6 model are getting more scarce these days  :-[

Don't have the sizes but IIRC they are not any standard size. I remember once trying to source them from a hydraulic shop but they could not find exact match.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 06 July 2018, 10:17:52
Vx don't make them, some other company does it for them, so is it silly to suggest trying to find out who does make them and ask them directly?

Ron.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 06 July 2018, 11:23:07
Not at all silly to suggest but I wouldnít know where to start

Iím clearly going to have to improvise as they donít seen available at parts stores or dealers. I will just get a selection of imperial and metric and find the closest match.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Bigron on 06 July 2018, 11:47:11
Hi James. I hope you are well?
A quick Google got this:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=3Ec_W8WZG4znsAfMzqSYDQ&q=who+manufactures+dowty+washers%3F&oq=who+manufactures+dowty+washers%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3...1320.28144.0.33530.31.26.0.2.2.0.1906.7254.0j5j6j3j6-1j1j1.17.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..12.17.6646...0j0i131k1j0i13k1j0i13i30k1j0i22i30k1j0i8i13i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i160k1.0.0GfGjrzKW5Y

I hope there's something of use there - you can understand it better than me....

Ron.
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: dave the builder on 06 July 2018, 12:59:13
plenty on ebay or other online stores ,dependent on what size is required
then select a buyer which specifies what rubber to suite your requirement
credit to you James
many would bodge with garbage kitchen sealant  ::)
hope you are well  ?
good luck with your quest  :)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 06 July 2018, 14:30:33
http://www.ukseals.com/
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 06 July 2018, 18:02:42
I think the reason this engine overheated is a failed HBV. lots of evidence of brown coolant etc over the hbv and pipes.

New one ordered :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Shackeng on 06 July 2018, 19:42:39
Wow, a lesson to all of us. :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: sg61 on 12 July 2018, 13:10:36
Rob, can you help me with my V6? oil leak and headG and perhaps a load of other stuff.
sounds similar to this post for the 3.2
Need an omega man to help, as keen to keep the car going for a few more years.....
sounds like you are the man!
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Migv6 on 12 July 2018, 13:39:54
I would start a new topic if I were you. More likely to get a response, rather than get lost / buried in someone elses thread.
Post up as best you can details of what the problem is and wait for replies. :y
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Raeturbo on 12 July 2018, 15:59:06
Thank you Migv6
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: Alnico Blue on 12 July 2018, 17:01:59
Rob, can you help me with my V6? oil leak and headG and perhaps a load of other stuff.
sounds similar to this post for the 3.2
Need an omega man to help, as keen to keep the car going for a few more years.....
sounds like you are the man!

I & so probably others on here am not sure who you were aiming your post at  (Rob ?)

But as MigV6 says . . .post up your own  new thread in Omega General Help  ,  giving as much detail as possible of your problem /s and you will get a much better response and quite possibly help there  :y

As quite a few regular Oofers are watching this exsisting thread with interest as to its  outcome ;)
Title: Re: Head gasket 3.2 v6
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 11 August 2018, 13:27:12
Due to a massive courier cock up there has been some delay to this, Iíve also had some personal battles going on, however, the heads have arrived now.

Iím going to be cleaning everything up and refurbing over the next few days, and have earmarked some time on Monday (not this one, next) to hopefully make good rebuild progress :y

The plan is that in just over a week, I can lift the bonnet and it will at least resemble an engine! :y