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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: Rods2 on 10 October 2018, 14:12:23

Title: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Rods2 on 10 October 2018, 14:12:23
High densities can contribute up to 0.25oC to global warming and up to 1oC at the centre of large wind farm areas.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: johnnydog on 10 October 2018, 14:22:18
What do wing farms produce then...??  :D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 10 October 2018, 15:20:02
What do wing farms produce then...??  :D
Global warming.......he just said  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 October 2018, 15:41:05
What do wing farms produce then...??  :D
Global warming.......he just said  ;D
And eggs :D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 10 October 2018, 16:20:02
High densities can contribute up to 0.25oC to global warming and up to 1oC at the centre of large wind farm areas.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate)
Can I suggest that you read the report more carefully?

It says "If enough wind turbines to generate all of America' energy (0.46 TW) were installed in America it would warm America by about 0.24 deg Celsius on average".

First, that's a lot of wind turbines.

Second, it's a local effect, not a global effect.

If we want to see the global effcet then, to a first approximation, America covers about 9.8 million square kilometers.  The earth is about 510 million square kilometers.

So, the average global effect would be about 0.24 x 9.8/510 = 0.005 deg C.  That's pretty trivial.

You also need to understand the difference between 0.25oC, which you use incorrectly; and 0.25 degrees C, which the report uses correctly, as they are completely different things.

0.25oC is a temperature which is equal to just over 32oF or about 273K. 

0.25 degrees C is a temperature difference which is about 0.14 degrees F or 0.25K.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: scimmy_man on 10 October 2018, 16:23:07
dont you go quoting facts at us....... ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 10 October 2018, 16:39:06
I was talking to someone about climate change yesterday in the park. I commented on how warm it was for 9th October. Out of nowhere, she launched into a tirade about how people in low lying countries would suffer greatly due to rising sea levels. I said "That's all very well, but my gas bill for September was the lowest I can remember". She was not amused.  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Kevin Wood on 10 October 2018, 16:56:33
I was talking to someone about climate change yesterday in the park. I commented on how warm it was for 9th October. Out of nowhere, she launched into a tirade about how people in low lying countries would suffer greatly due to rising sea levels. I said "That's all very well, but my gas bill for September was the lowest I can remember". She was not amused.  ;D

I think you'll find that's a "local effect". :y
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: terbert on 10 October 2018, 17:48:49
What do wing farms produce then...??  :D

Chickenless wings ::)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TheBoy on 10 October 2018, 18:30:50
Though obviously, with wind turbines, you need other sources online and generating for when the wind stops.  And thats precisely why the things should have zero subsidy.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: ronnyd on 10 October 2018, 19:25:06
Hmm, wing farms, i thought this topic would fly. :-[
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 10 October 2018, 19:27:47
Ha ha, you're all just winging it!  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 10 October 2018, 19:32:54
At least it was only the 'g' he got wrong. He could have put wind farts, now that would have been funny.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 10 October 2018, 19:34:37
At least it was only the 'g' he got wrong. He could have put wind farts, now that would have been funny.

And more factual as think of the global warming farting contributes to!  :o  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: biggriffin on 10 October 2018, 19:35:31
Hmm, wing farms, i thought this topic would fly. :-[
.

Commonly known as two sisters foods..... Produce chicken for a well known fast food retailer. I
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Migv6 on 10 October 2018, 21:03:02
Though obviously, with wind turbines, you need other sources online and generating for when the wind stops.  And thats precisely why the things should have zero subsidy all be chopped down.

Couldn't agree more.  :y :)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: redelitev6 on 10 October 2018, 21:15:55
High densities can contribute up to 0.25oC to global warming and up to 1oC at the centre of large wind farm areas.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/how-wind-power-could-contribute-warming-climate)
Can I suggest that you read the report more carefully?

It says "If enough wind turbines to generate all of America' energy (0.46 TW) were installed in America it would warm America by about 0.24 deg Celsius on average".

First, that's a lot of wind turbines.

Second, it's a local effect, not a global effect.

If we want to see the global effcet then, to a first approximation, America covers about 9.8 million square kilometers.  The earth is about 510 million square kilometers.

So, the average global effect would be about 0.24 x 9.8/510 = 0.005 deg C.  That's pretty trivial.

You also need to understand the difference between 0.25oC, which you use incorrectly; and 0.25 degrees C, which the report uses correctly, as they are completely different things.

0.25oC is a temperature which is equal to just over 32oF or about 273K. 

0.25 degrees C is a temperature difference which is about 0.14 degrees F or 0.25K.
Ha ! that's easy for you to say
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 October 2018, 00:12:04
OK, I will bite...

Comrade Haha, you are once wrong...

The United States is a not inconsiderable part of the land mass commonly known as the continent of North America.

It therefore stands to reason that any weather changes as a result of 'local'* influence would have far reaching climatic effects globally by virtue of the planet being contained within a whole singular climatic envelope.

*Presuming that by local, you mean continental  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 October 2018, 01:05:05
Ah...... Where's my popcorn?!  :D  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 11 October 2018, 10:24:48
It therefore stands to reason that any weather changes as a result of 'local'* influence would have far reaching climatic effects globally by virtue of the planet being contained within a whole singular climatic envelope.
It does not stand to reason.

In principle, your opinion could have some truth in it (you will note my words were "to a first approximation") but, based on what the report says, you are probably wrong. 

You need to read the extract published (better: read the full report) to find the cause of the predicted heating.  You will need to understand what a boundary layer is.  I can postulate reasons for why the heat remains local. 
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 October 2018, 14:19:37
You can postulate to your hearts content ;D

The butterfly effect still stands, and as long as there is an equator, water in the oceans and a jet stream, climate will remain a global situation. Regardless of whether you agree or not...  ::)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 11 October 2018, 15:14:52
You can postulate to your hearts content ;D

The butterfly effect still stands, and as long as there is an equator, water in the oceans and a jet stream, climate will remain a global situation. Regardless of whether you agree or not...  ::)
I'm not so sure about the postulating, I've heard you can go blind.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: BazaJT on 11 October 2018, 18:51:20
Apparently the clothing/fashion industry contributes massively to global warming,but I'm not sure the idea of us all running about starkers is a particularly good one :D :D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Kevin Wood on 11 October 2018, 19:17:23
Apparently the clothing/fashion industry contributes massively to global warming,but I'm not sure the idea of us all running about starkers is a particularly good one :D :D
Well, if it's between that and driving a Pious... :-X
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 October 2018, 19:47:44
You can postulate to your hearts content ;D

The butterfly effect still stands, and as long as there is an equator, water in the oceans and a jet stream, climate will remain a global situation. Regardless of whether you agree or not...  ::)
I'm not so sure about the postulating, I've heard you can go blind.

No, it's good to get it out of your system!  :)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 14 October 2018, 14:22:45
OK, I will bite...

Comrade Haha, you are once wrong...

The United States is a not inconsiderable part of the land mass commonly known as the continent of North America.

It therefore stands to reason that any weather changes as a result of 'local'* influence would have far reaching climatic effects globally by virtue of the planet being contained within a whole singular climatic envelope.

*Presuming that by local, you mean continental  ;D

Why don't you read the report before commenting on it?  Or did you read it, but not understand it? 

The report says

"A vast array of imagined wind turbines ... would quickly warm the contiguous United States by an average of 0.24 degrees Celsius, a new study estimates.

The warming effect is strongest near the center of the array, with warming of as much as 1 degree Celsius".


So, the report is saying the warming is local, not global; and is restricted to the contiguous United States.

Second, if you have even just a mediocre ability to understand and analyse figures, you will have noted that the average value across the US would be 0.24 degrees C, but that the maximum value would be 1 degrees C in the centre.  This means that the values at the edges would have to be (probably much) less than 0.24 degrees C in order for the average to be 0.24 degrees C.  By extension, the effect outside the US would be even smaller.

Remember, it is always better to remain silent, and have others think you are a fool; than to spout forth and remove all doubt.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 14 October 2018, 14:48:06
OK, I will bite...

Comrade Haha, you are once wrong...

The United States is a not inconsiderable part of the land mass commonly known as the continent of North America.

It therefore stands to reason that any weather changes as a result of 'local'* influence would have far reaching climatic effects globally by virtue of the planet being contained within a whole singular climatic envelope.

*Presuming that by local, you mean continental  ;D

Why don't you read the report before commenting on it?  Or did you read it, but not understand it? 

The report says

"A vast array of imagined wind turbines ... would quickly warm the contiguous United States by an average of 0.24 degrees Celsius, a new study estimates.

The warming effect is strongest near the center of the array, with warming of as much as 1 degree Celsius".


So, the report is saying the warming is local, not global; and is restricted to the contiguous United States.

Second, if you have even just a mediocre ability to understand and analyse figures, you will have noted that the average value across the US would be 0.24 degrees C, but that the maximum value would be 1 degrees C in the centre.  This means that the values at the edges would have to be (probably much) less than 0.24 degrees C in order for the average to be 0.24 degrees C.  By extension, the effect outside the US would be even smaller.

Remember, it is always better to remain silent, and have others think you are a fool; than to spout forth and remove all doubt.
That's three times you've said that now. The first two were deleted. You really are an unpleasant, arrogant piece of work.
Here's hoping the Bristol Channel bore reaches 20 metres, then we might be shot of you.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 14 October 2018, 14:56:12
That's three times you've said that now. The first two were deleted. You really are an unpleasant, arrogant piece of work.
That is rich.  You troll me, you insult me, you blaspheme so much that entire threads have to be deleted by the moderators.

The problem here is that the cronies don't like it when they are shown to be fools. 
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 14 October 2018, 15:04:16
That's three times you've said that now. The first two were deleted. You really are an unpleasant, arrogant piece of work.
That is rich.  You troll me, you insult me, you blaspheme so much that entire threads have to be deleted by the moderators.

The problem here is that the cronies don't like it when they are shown to be fools.

Have you been drinking today? I only ask because you've been online plenty but it took you three days to post your latest load of crap. Or is it that you are just weird? Or both?  ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 14 October 2018, 15:17:16

 ... it took you three days to post your latest load of crap.
Why don't you read what I posted because, if you did, and if you have the intellect to understand it, you would not call it crap because it is correct.

The typical cronies here seem to be ignorant, opinionated, narcissistic (look it up) bully-boys who are all too fond fond of their own voices.  Facts are irrelevant to them - they are like a pack of mangy dogs looking for a victim and spouting off like a troll.

It is why I call you a troll - that is what you are.

This thread is about the report.  If you have nothing of value to add to the discussion about the report, can I suggest you contain yourself and remain silent.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 14 October 2018, 15:27:16
I would suggest, dear John, that you are like a fish out of water on a forum such as this. Your high opinion of your supposed intellect, and you superiority complex can only lead people to mock you, possibly pity you.
You accuse people of being 'cronies' and belonging to 'cliques'. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of human behaviour would realise that this is what happens when people are together for ten years. There are also quite a few genuine friendships on here. For myself, I am really not interested in the minute technical details of climate change. I dare say others may be slightly more interested. But to have to listen to the indignant diatribes (look it up) of a know-all like you is quite tedious and, so.........we take the piss.
Shit! Nearly got through a whole post without profanities there.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 14 October 2018, 15:42:22
I am really not interested in the minute technical details of climate change.

In that case, don't post in a thread about climate change!  You are just trolling!

I cam to this forum being polite.  I am polite to those who are polite to me. 

But I will not be bullied or sworn at by the likes of you.

Shit! Nearly got through a whole post without profanities there.

You are doing much better.  Remember all those profanities you hurled at me before?  The moderators found you and others to be so offensive that they had to delete entire threads and, no doubt, ask you to tone things down.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 14 October 2018, 15:48:44
The A word springs to mind, so I'll leave it there.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Migv6 on 14 October 2018, 17:04:12
If only Nickbat were here to post on this thread. It could quickly get very interesting.  ::)
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 14 October 2018, 17:19:11
The A word springs to mind ...

Why don't you read the forum guidelines?  They are quite clear - they say:

"Excessive use of bad language of any description will not be tolerated, neither will the use of certain words (masked or otherwise) which we hope should be plain and obvious to anyone who can read these guidelines and be intelligent enough to work out what kind of behavior [sic] is and isn't allowed."

Isn't it "plain and obvious" to you? 

Or is it that you aren't "intelligent enough to work out what kind of behavior [sic] is and isn't allowed"?

Please tell us.

Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TheBoy on 14 October 2018, 17:22:55
Ladies, ladies.


I'm tired, CBA to moderate, and would probably do something drastic anyway.  But some people read somethings, and quote verbatim, and believe it to be genuine fact.  And need to look in the mirror before calling everybody else trolls.


Before I get accused of trolling, I shall pose something on topic, just to their narrow view of a troll....   ….I couldn't get 3 oppss about climate change (which has actually yet to be proved to be manmade, BTW, not that I believe it isn't), which is why I'm not stupid enough to own a current electric car, instead owning an Omega.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 October 2018, 17:51:11
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Now tell me that a climatic alteration, however small, in one place doesn't affect the entire system...

BTW, I sleep enough without reading tedium that I have no interest in... That said, it doesn't automatically preclude me from either having an opinion, or the expression of one. However ill-informed YOU may consider it.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 14 October 2018, 19:00:46
Ladies, ladies.


I'm tired, CBA to moderate, and would probably do something drastic anyway.  But some people read somethings, and quote verbatim, and believe it to be genuine fact.  And need to look in the mirror before calling everybody else trolls.


Before I get accused of trolling, I shall pose something on topic, just to their narrow view of a troll....   ….I couldn't get 3 oppss about climate change (which has actually yet to be proved to be manmade, BTW, not that I believe it isn't), which is why I'm not stupid enough to own a current electric car, instead owning an Omega.
You calling me a lady boy, fatty? ;D
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 09:07:04
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Now tell me that a climatic alteration, however small, in one place doesn't affect the entire system...

The level of intellectual rigour in this thread is lamentably low.

Did you read the wiki article you cited?  I presume you either did not bother to read it before citing it, or you tried, but you did not understand what it was saying.

The "butterfly effect" applies to predicting what happens in chaotic systems.  It applies to weather but it does not apply to climate.

Why?

Because the "butterfly effect" merely redistributes the existing energies - it does not add to, or take away from, those existing energies.  The earth is essentially a closed system, with radiation inputs and outputs, and it is the aggregate sum of the radiation inputs and outputs to that closed system which causes climate change.  The "butterfly effect" has no effect on them.

The wiki article says "They (recurrence and sensitive dependence on initial conditions in chaotic systems) have the practical consequence of making complex systems, such as the weather, difficult to predict past a certain time range (approximately a week in the case of weather)." shows what I mean.  The "butterfly effect" in weather only works on time scales of a week or so, but not longer.

So you are talking about weather over one week, when I am talking about climate.

As a matter of interest, at what point do you begin to doubt your opinions?  I have shown that every "opinion" you and others have posted on climate change in these threads has been factually incorrect.  When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs.
Title: Re: Wing farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 October 2018, 09:39:51
Ladies, ladies.


I'm tired, CBA to moderate, and would probably do something drastic anyway.  But some people read somethings, and quote verbatim, and believe it to be genuine fact.  And need to look in the mirror before calling everybody else trolls.


Before I get accused of trolling, I shall pose something on topic, just to their narrow view of a troll....   ….I couldn't get 3 oppss about climate change (which has actually yet to be proved to be manmade, BTW, not that I believe it isn't), which is why I'm not stupid enough to own a current electric car, instead owning an Omega.

Me neither, and I suspect that would go for most of us who drive around in thirsty old barges. ;D
Maybe that's why all attempts to start a serious discussion about it on this forum end the same way?
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Gaffers on 15 October 2018, 10:08:42
John, you are p1ssing in to the wind if you think you will get through to the membership here, especially on this subject.

The original article is quite obviously pseudo-science wrapped in just enough ambiguity and get-out clauses to protect the author from being accused of writing falsehoods while implanting just enough doubt towards the viability of wind farms.  You will never change attitudes of those who say climate-change doesn't exist.  In fact, I would not be surprised if some of them (generally and not aimed at anyone in the forum) would accuse wind farms of contributing to global-warming and denying that global-warming exists in the same breath.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 10:32:05
John, you are p1ssing in to the wind if you think you will get through to the membership here, especially on this subject.
I don't know - it is working but slowly.

When I first posted, the trolls attacked me with abuse, foul language, swearing and insults.  Now they don't.  So you can change things - it just takes a little while.  I think they have also toned down their abuse in other threads so that is to the benefit of everyone.

Remember - I never started any of these threads.  I am not baiting people - I am merely pointing out that posts people had written can easily be shown to be untrue. 

Some people have egos which can't stand being told they are wrong and they have stopped posting.  Even Gollum seems to have thought about it for a long while before eventually saying "OK - I will bite ...".  Unfortunately, yet again, he was wrong with his post.

I confess that I probably do know quite a bit  about climate change (including reading the IPCC reports) so it is easy for me to see when people are wrong.  In any other forum, including in the Omega General Help forum, people with knowledge are welcomed as they bring clarity.  In this forum they seem to be despised and reviled.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TheBoy on 15 October 2018, 11:20:53
I am merely pointing out that posts people had written can easily be shown to be untrue. 
100% agree. But remember it cuts both ways ;)

And remember, no matter what the tree huggers may believe, it has yet to be scientifically proven that any climate change is manmade, despite the all the money spent on studies.  For that matter, it has yet to be proved that smoking causes lung cancer, just assumed.  And, despite efforts to prove to the contrary, all forms of diabetes are hereditary and not purely lifestyle.


Now I'm not saying that climate change is not impacted by man, or that smoking doesn't cause cancer. But until it is proven, nobody can truthfully say it is. Or isn't.

Even Gollum seems to have thought about it for a long while before eventually saying "OK - I will bite ...".  Unfortunately, yet again, he was wrong with his post.
He is entitled to his opinions, and is welcome to express them within the bounds of our guidelines. As are you.  But remember, they are opinions. That does not make them fact, and does not make him right and you wrong, or vice versa.


I confess that I probably do know quite a bit  about climate change (including reading the IPCC reports) so it is easy for me to see when people are wrong.  In any other forum, including in the Omega General Help forum, people with knowledge are welcomed as they bring clarity.  In this forum they seem to be despised and reviled.
See my top point, and this comment is a prime example. You imply you are right and others are wrong. In fact you are convinced you are right. "I am merely pointing out that posts people had written can easily be shown to be untrue".




Politics and religion. Remember. ;)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 October 2018, 13:06:04
I am merely pointing out that posts people had written can easily be shown to be untrue. 
100% agree. But remember it cuts both ways ;)

And remember, no matter what the tree huggers may believe, it has yet to be scientifically proven that any climate change is manmade, despite the all the money spent on studies.  For that matter, it has yet to be proved that smoking causes lung cancer, just assumed.  And, despite efforts to prove to the contrary, all forms of diabetes are hereditary and not purely lifestyle.


Now I'm not saying that climate change is not impacted by man, or that smoking doesn't cause cancer. But until it is proven, nobody can truthfully say it is. Or isn't.

Even Gollum seems to have thought about it for a long while before eventually saying "OK - I will bite ...".  Unfortunately, yet again, he was wrong with his post.
He is entitled to his opinions, and is welcome to express them within the bounds of our guidelines. As are you.  But remember, they are opinions. That does not make them fact, and does not make him right and you wrong, or vice versa.


I confess that I probably do know quite a bit  about climate change (including reading the IPCC reports) so it is easy for me to see when people are wrong.  In any other forum, including in the Omega General Help forum, people with knowledge are welcomed as they bring clarity.  In this forum they seem to be despised and reviled.
See my top point, and this comment is a prime example. You imply you are right and others are wrong. In fact you are convinced you are right. "I am merely pointing out that posts people had written can easily be shown to be untrue".




Politics and religion. Remember. ;)

Oh yes, a bad, very bad minefield to venture into..............!! ::) ::) ::) :P :P :D
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TD on 15 October 2018, 13:09:09

 all forms of diabetes are hereditary
and not purely lifestyle.


Are you sure about that? I have type 2 diabetes. Neither my brother or my parents has/had diabetes...…...
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 13:16:12
And remember, no matter what the tree huggers may believe, it has yet to be scientifically proven that any climate change is manmade, despite the all the money spent on studies. 

No scientific theory - not even the Theory of Relativity or Quantum Mechanics, can be proved to be correct.  Scientific theories can only be proved to be wrong when facts arise which show them to be wrong.

Rational people believe scientific theories when the evidence they are correct becomes overwhelming.  Hence CERN's use of "six sigma" certainty in reporting the results of the search for Higgs' boson.

May I ask where do you get your information from on climate change?

Do you read papers on climate change?  Read books on climate change?

If you don't, then just where do you get your information from?

Remember the old adage: GIBO - Garbage In , Garbage Out.  If your input is garbage your output will similarly be garbage.

May I tell you what other people do. 

First, look at the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). 

The IPCC is the international body for assessing the science related to climate change. The IPCC was set up in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) to provide policymakers with regular assessments of the scientific basis of climate change, its impacts and future risks, and options for adaptation and mitigation.  The IPCC is open to all member countries of the WMO and United Nations. It currently has 195 members.

IPCC assessments are written by hundreds of leading scientists who volunteer their time and expertise as Coordinating Lead Authors and Lead Authors of the reports. They enlist hundreds of other experts as Contributing Authors to provide complementary expertise in specific areas. IPCC reports undergo multiple rounds of drafting and review to ensure they are comprehensive and objective and produced in an open and transparent way. Thousands of other experts contribute to the reports by acting as reviewers, ensuring the reports reflect the full range of views in the scientific community.

So we have an independent body with no axe to grind set up to work full time on the issue.  It works with thousands of qualified scientists.

By denying climate change, the deniers are saying they know better than the IPCC and its thousands of qualified scientists. 

Apart from the IPCC, independent scientists review the literature.  Let's look at three such reviews.

In 2013, James L. Powell, a former member of the National Science Board and current executive director of the National Physical Science Consortium, analysed published research on global warming and climate change between 1991 and 2012.  He found that of the 13,950 articles in peer-reviewed journals, only 24 rejected anthropogenic global warming.  That's 99.83% agreeing.

This was a follow-up to an analysis looking at 2,258 peer-reviewed articles published between November 2012 and December 2013 which revealed that only one of the 9,136 authors rejected anthropogenic global warming.  That's 99.99% agreeing.

In 2013, Cook et al. examined 11,944 abstracts from the peer-reviewed scientific literature from 1991–2011 that matched the topics 'global climate change' or 'global warming'. They found that 97.1% of those who expressed an opinion on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) endorsed that humans are contributing to global warming.

They concluded that the number of papers actually rejecting the consensus on AGW is a vanishingly small proportion of the published research.

In 2010, Anderegg's et al. paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America (PNAS), reviewed publication and citation data for 1,372 climate researchers, based on authorship of scientific assessment reports and membership on multi signatory statements about anthropogenic climate change. They say that since they drew the researchers from the most high-profile reports and public statements, it is likely that it represents the "strongest and most credentialed" researchers both 'convinced by the evidence' (CE) and 'unconvinced by the evidence' (UE) on the tenets of anthropogenic climate change".

They drew the following two conclusions:

(i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field surveyed here support the tenets of ACC (Anthropogenic Climate Change) outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and

(ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.

Faced with that overwhelming weight of evidence rational people tend to agree with it.

But you choose to disagree with the world's most eminent scientists working in the field. 

May I ask what is your rationale for rejecting these findings? 

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is. 

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.

Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Migv6 on 15 October 2018, 13:45:21
Fack me this is getting beyond tedious. We have had all these discussions / arguments before. No-one can win as no-one can prove their side of the argument.
Why bother ?  ???
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 October 2018, 14:18:07
Weather is the current local climatic condition at any given point.

To say that they are unrelated is akin to suggesting that the tides are unrelated to the lunar cycle...
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 15 October 2018, 15:01:45
It's drizzling here at the moment, but quite mild.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 15:04:56
Weather is the current local climatic condition at any given point.

To say that they are unrelated is akin to suggesting that the tides are unrelated to the lunar cycle...

One of the favourite methods of a troll - dishonestly misquote someone in an attempt to make them look foolish. 

I never said that weather and climate were unrelated.  I said "The "butterfly effect" applies to predicting what happens in chaotic systems.  It applies to weather but it does not apply to climate".

Climate drives weather but weather does not drive climate.

May I ask you want I asked TheBoy?

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is.

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 15:06:26
It's drizzling here at the moment, but quite mild.

May I extend the invitation to you too.

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is.

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 15 October 2018, 15:11:23
It's drizzling here at the moment, but quite mild.

May I extend the invitation to you too.

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is.

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.



He's from Liverpool.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 October 2018, 15:28:45

 all forms of diabetes are hereditary
and not purely lifestyle.


Are you sure about that? I have type 2 diabetes. Neither my brother or my parents has/had diabetes...…...

I think so, as my mothers side were all diabetics and as the war generation never exactly had surplus food or sweets to enjoy!  It lept on to me apparently according to a doctor, but there again I had my childhood during the 1950's and into the 1960's when we certainly enjoyed all the things that the "experts" reckon are very bad indeed for us!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 October 2018, 15:40:13
Typing everything in bold won't make me want to read it ::)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: John-Ha on 15 October 2018, 15:45:47
Typing everything in bold won't make me want to read it ::)

Try this:

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is.

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 15 October 2018, 15:52:14
Typing everything in bold won't make me want to read it ::)

Try this:

You come across as a rational person so I have to believe that you have some really strong evidence which has caused you to believe in what you do believe in.  Please tell us what your evidence is.

I will be very interested to hear what your evidence is because, as I said earlier in this thread, "When someone repeatedly demonstrates I am wrong, I review my beliefs".  If your evidence is correct, and I am wrong, I will change mind and become a vigorous climate change denier.
So, who are you talking to there? One of us? Both of us? Neither of us?  ;D

It's stopped raining now.  :)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 15 October 2018, 15:55:27
I have a question. If we say climate change is happening and the world is getting warmer, what are we doing about it?
I know what our government are doing. They have stopped the subsidies for electric cars, stopped the eco home project and, today, fracking is starting again in Lancashire.
So....you're pissing into the wind either way.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 October 2018, 16:04:02
Nope.

I refer you, if I may, to 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 23... :y
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Entwood on 15 October 2018, 16:09:56
Proverbs 8 - 33

:)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 October 2018, 16:15:45
Proverbs 8 - 33

:)
;)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: STEMO on 15 October 2018, 16:26:11
Nope.

I refer you, if I may, to 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 23... :y
Nice one, Lizzie.  ;D
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 October 2018, 17:20:12
Nope.

I refer you, if I may, to 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 23... :y
Nice one, Lizzie.  ;D

Is someone using my name in vain?! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Kevin Wood on 15 October 2018, 17:28:27
Nope.

I refer you, if I may, to 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 23... :y
Nice one, Lizzie.  ;D

Is someone using my name in vain?! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)

Given the topic, it was more likely in vane. ;D

I'm here all week. :D
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 15 October 2018, 17:30:24
Nope.

I refer you, if I may, to 2 Timothy, Chapter 2, verse 23... :y
Nice one, Lizzie.  ;D

Is someone using my name in vain?! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)

Given the topic, it was more likely in vane. ;D

I'm here all week. :D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D :y
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TheBoy on 15 October 2018, 18:56:56

 all forms of diabetes are hereditary
and not purely lifestyle.


Are you sure about that? I have type 2 diabetes. Neither my brother or my parents has/had diabetes...…...
Yes.

Type 2 is more likely to be related to lifestyle choices (than Type 1), but you also have to have the genetic defect to begin with.
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: Shackeng on 15 October 2018, 18:59:25
Ooooh, I've just picked this thread up, fortunately I recently bought a popcorn making machine. (It doesn't use miuch power honest. ::))
Keep going. :y
Title: Re: Wind farms can contribute to global warming
Post by: TheBoy on 15 October 2018, 19:06:35
Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)
Remind me of their raison d'κtre  ?

Actually, don't bother, because I ain't interested.  And why do you think I'm a Climate Change denyer?  When have I ever said that?  I have never actually stated my opinion on it.


I was simply pointing out that you think your opinion was factual, when you can't prove it is. Its your opinion.  I'll add to that, and say you call everyone who disagrees a troll, without realising you are trolling yourself.