Omega Owners Forum

Omega Help Area => Omega General Help => Topic started by: tunnie on 08 July 2019, 19:06:20

Title: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 08 July 2019, 19:06:20
Think found the issue... in

https://imgur.com/a/bjh3wCJ (https://imgur.com/a/bjh3wCJ)

Water pump seal? Pump has never been changed, recall GM ones just to be cheap but not any more. Just eBay now?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 08 July 2019, 19:08:22
Cant tell from pic, can only see coolant on bottom pulley, which could potentially come from rad.

Yank apart to confirm.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 08 July 2019, 19:12:36
Cant tell from pic, can only see coolant on bottom pulley, which could potentially come from rad.

Yank apart to confirm.

How could rad coolant get there?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 08 July 2019, 19:32:00
Cant tell from pic, can only see coolant on bottom pulley, which could potentially come from rad.

Yank apart to confirm.

How could rad coolant get there?
Rad coolant is the same coolant as water pump, oil cooler etc etc
if a small hole was in a fin of the rad, it would squirt onto the block ,or get pushed that way by fans ,forward movement  :y
BUT , as TB says....
Slacken the torx that hold the water pump pulley
take off the aux belt , remove pulley and look  :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 08 July 2019, 20:03:19
I know itís all same coolant, there is no evidence around rad itís come from there. I wonít be looking at this myself, will be taking it to Serekís garage as soon as he can fit me in
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: biggriffin on 08 July 2019, 21:24:59
I've got this 3.2rad, has a top mounting lug missing, but is okay otherwise, if you need it when at sereks, ask him to ring me.
 
 (https://i.postimg.cc/wBrQ1qqK/IMG-20190503-164851.jpg)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 08 July 2019, 21:41:29
If it is the water pump leaking ,you need to address it ASAP
they can go from a slight leak to a big leak quite quickly
its a few bolts , belt off and a top up of fluid afterwards
are you feeling lucky  :-\
though the cam-cover gaskets would be easy to get at if you cook the engine and have it out for replacement  :D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 08 July 2019, 23:08:35
Iíve worked on many a V6 to know they are horrible to work on, that will need a mallet to loosen. Rather it be taken off and replaced in on go and not by me.  :)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 09 July 2019, 01:19:51
100% rad leak.

No way on this planet or next that it would be coming from the water pump ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 09 July 2019, 12:16:12
Iíve worked on many a V6 to know they are horrible to work on, that will need a mallet to loosen. Rather it be taken off and replaced in on go and not by me.  :)
Assuming its been serviced at the correct schedules, the water pump pulley will fall off once the belt is off and the 3 bolts undo :).

Then you can see for definite.

To me, that seems a strange place for coolant to end up if the waterpump bearing seal is failing.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Nick W on 09 July 2019, 13:32:53
Iíve worked on many a V6 to know they are horrible to work on, that will need a mallet to loosen. Rather it be taken off and replaced in on go and not by me.  :)


Seriously?


Loosen the pulley bolts before you remove the drive belt.
The pump is attached with three bolts, undo those and the pump will fall out with a tap from a mallet(block of wood and a hammer).


Doing the N/S camcover is a much worse job, and even that shouldn't stretch you
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: biggriffin on 09 July 2019, 18:15:36
Iíve worked on many a V6 to know they are horrible to work on, that will need a mallet to loosen. Rather it be taken off and replaced in on go and not by me.  :)


Seriously?


Loosen the pulley bolts before you remove the drive belt.
The pump is attached with three bolts, undo those and the pump will fall out with a tap from a mallet(block of wood and a hammer).


Doing the N/S camcover is a much worse job, and even that shouldn't stretch you

Plus 1. :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 07 August 2019, 09:44:18
So Serek found HBV was leaking and replaced that (2 year old genuine) - But still have a coolant leak.  :(

Lost a 3rd of the header tank on a ~50 mile run, not used it today will get it on ramps tomorrow.

Had a quick look yesterday, HBV area all dry and underneath the car/tarmac was all dry and it was parked in a multi-story. I would have expected to find a puddle at some point.  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: addy on 07 August 2019, 10:59:55
Would doing a coolant pressure test, as in the maintenance help. I know it picked up the radiator leaking on mine, it only showed once the pressure was raised?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 07 August 2019, 11:01:49
Would doing a coolant pressure test, as in the maintenance help. I know it picked up the radiator leaking on mine, it only showed once the pressure was raised?

Pressure test was done, showed no leaks  :(  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 07 August 2019, 12:40:55
Lift the carpet in the drivers footwell and report back...
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 August 2019, 12:46:45
went to check again at lunch, it's dropped a bit since leaving for work. Was splashing around above the cold line by a fraction, now it's below the cold line by about 1/2 cm or so.

Spotted a drip of fluid, but think that was for air-con water, dropping around level with pre-cat on passenger side.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 August 2019, 13:00:27
I recently had coolant dropping myseteriously. Turned out to be the rubber washer on the underside of the header tank cap disintegrating and allowing some to escape. Fitted a spare cap and problem solved. Worth checking as an easy simple diagnosis / fix.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 August 2019, 13:09:32
Thanks.

It did cross my mind, I had a good look at underside of the cap. It looks good and solid, no obvious signs it could be degraded.

Did yours look broken/cracked underneath?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 August 2019, 13:34:12
Yep, plus the first clue was little bits of black rubber in the header tank.  ;D
A crack at the header tank neck isn't uncommon though, and more difficult to spot.  ;)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 20 August 2019, 21:42:05
New cap inconclusive, initially I thought the problem had resolved, it appears to have lost less over 60 mile return trip to work. But I think it has dropped a bit, will know more after tomorrows work run.

However I pulled up carpet in passenger footwell, it appears damp and I can see traces of water. Can't tell if it's coolant, also the sponge area around this wiring loom also feeds damp.  :-\

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJBkXfQK/IMG-4512.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0cP6drq/IMG-4515.jpg)

Scuttle area clean and dry, never had any issues as it never gets clogged around here.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 20 August 2019, 22:46:08
Taste it.* Coolant is easily distinguished from stale water.

The fact it isn't pink suggests that it's rain water...

Scuttle, sunroof drain, hole in bulkhead, aircon drain etc, etc...

*Obviously drinking a litre of either is a bad idea, but the pinky dip is a useful guide :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 23 August 2019, 18:28:37
Another 60 miles after topping up this morning and no drop in coolant, wondering if itís the bottle.

Putting my ear close to the header tank, I can hear a faint hiss from cap.

I do appear to have some loss, but not as bad as before new cap went on.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 23 August 2019, 18:37:04
you could try mixing some dilute washing up liquid in a spray bottle
gas /air  leak style  :-\
maybe a hairline crack or leaky hose clamp
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 23 August 2019, 19:55:03
you could try mixing some dilute washing up liquid in a spray bottle
gas /air  leak style  :-\
maybe a hairline crack or leaky hose clamp

Good idea that, Iíll spray some around header bottle area.  :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 August 2019, 23:59:27
you could try mixing some dilute washing up liquid in a spray bottle
gas /air  leak style  :-\
maybe a hairline crack or leaky hose clamp

Good idea that, if I get time, Iíll spray some around header bottle area.  :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 11:23:12
Hummm, stange this.

Last week I put a couple bottles of food colouring dye in, to try and trace the leak. It did 3 return trips to work (so ~150 miles), without using a drop of coolant. Note the trips were free flowing, still holidays so lighter on traffic.

Spent an hour on Saturday with car on ramps trying to locate leak, without luck.

Drive it to work on Monday and we had grid lock, due to traffic issues. 2 lanes out on M3 and local roads all blocked. So ended up parking for ~30 mins and doing work on laptop before carrying on, but still very heavy traffic. Not a great run back either!

Check coolant level at home and half the header tank was gone.  :o  :-\

Going to check at lunch for signs of colouring dye, but still no pools under the car or anything. Inspections following all coolant hoses showed no sign of previous leaks.

it appears excessive idling is causing it to drink coolant.  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 10 September 2019, 11:26:45
The coolant temperature will go up significantly in slow traffic compared to free moving traffic, so perhaps it's coming out of the cap/tank because it can't maintain 13psi (or whatever pressure it's meant to)? Can't remember if you've already changed tank & cap, though..
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 11:29:40
The coolant temperature will go up significantly in slow traffic compared to free moving traffic, so perhaps it's coming out of the cap/tank because it can't maintain 13psi (or whatever pressure it's meant to)? Can't remember if you've already changed tank & cap, though..

Yes new cap, I have suspected bottle but after inspections it's all dry. Popped bonnet straight after work/home runs, it's all dry around there. Unless it escapes in a vapour type mist  :-\

I would have expected with dye to see traces now  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Nick W on 10 September 2019, 11:33:01
You've used several foolproof methods to prove there isn't an external leak.
It has an internal fault, and a rotten head gasket is most likely. It's doing almost exactly what mine did: fine on a run, but short low speed urban journeys cause the water level to drop noticeably.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 11:37:21
You've used several foolproof methods to prove there isn't an external leak.
It has an internal fault, and a rotten head gasket is most likely. It's doing almost exactly what mine did: fine on a run, but short low speed urban journeys cause the water level to drop noticeably.

 :( :( :( :( :'( :'( :'(

Yes, exact same issues mine has.

However I would have thought this would cause miss-fire? Coolant would leak into the bores if HG was gone. (even though it's unheard of for 3.2?)

I have noticed the odd 'lumpy' running when idling at lights, feels like it miss-fires but it does not. It's very, very slight.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Nick W on 10 September 2019, 11:46:58
Move past the dogma, and face facts. 'Unheard of on 3.2s' does not, under any circumstances, mean impossible. It means unlikely, and is intended to push you into doing proper diagnosis rather than initially jumping to erroneous conclusions.


You've done that diagnosis(several times).


Mine also had an occasional slight misfire. The back plug on the driver's side was cleaner than the others, and the gasket was clearly leaking into that cylinder. The other side looked as bad when I took it off.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 11:54:55
Need to get my compression tester I think, itís at my parents garage.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Nick W on 10 September 2019, 12:29:39
Need to get my compression tester I think, itís at my parents garage.


You'd be better with a leak-down tester.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 12:38:51
Just googled it. EBay review say avoid cheap one at £20. So £50 for decent one?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F331907592232 (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F331907592232)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 10 September 2019, 13:00:37
Don't forget you'll also need a compressor for a leak-down tester.. have both here if you're ever passing :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 13:05:15
Don't forget you'll also need a compressor for a leak-down tester.. have both here if you're ever passing :y

Thanks  :y

Given cost of tools, might very well take you up on that.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 10 September 2019, 13:18:06
No worries - more than welcome any time, whenever I'm here, anyway (which is most of the time!)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 13:38:51
No worries - more than welcome any time, whenever I'm here, anyway (which is most of the time!)


Thanks :y I've never used one of these things.   


Just went to check it now, it's dropped a bit on the morning run. Not normally done that, so appears to be getting worse.

Again no indications where it could be, under the car, hbv area etc. Fact Serek at SOS pressure tested it as well, appears to confirm Nick.W's thoughts on HG  :'(
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 10 September 2019, 14:40:10
It could be - these cars are getting older and older now and so while HGs were "unknown" on 3.2s 5-6 years ago, you're now talking about a car - and a gasket - that's been in there giving service for 16 years for even the newest 3.2.. sooner or later, as Nick says, those "unknown" failures will start making themselves known, because everything has a finite lifespan :(
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 September 2019, 15:13:04
280+k of abuse and no head gasket issues...

It's as likely a result of neglect as it is mileage ;)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 10 September 2019, 19:03:15
As a fellow coolant-weeping-V6 owner I can offer my own experiences. I'm still in the middle of doing this myself, mine is/was producing a warm/burning coolant smell - seemed to be toward the scuttle, but no vapour visible. HBV seemed dry, then again sometimes a smell seemed to come form the front of the engine, too. Hoses seemed fine, nothing visible anywhere.

With plenum, fuel rail and sandwich plate off, a bolt jammed in one hose, and a schrader valve in the other, neighbor's bicycle pump attached and the system built upto about 15-17PSI I saw a weep from the coolant bridge. Saddening as this was only done a year or two ago, using brand new dowty washers. Of course what's been happening is it's leaking water - no smell... but only after a while then being burned/boiled off as it sits on the block. It also looks like the auxilliary coolant pump seal has gone, though I can't rule out 100% the hoses to it are past their best too.

I had confirmed she was not leaking anywhere, simple process of elimination. Hoses=ok, HBV=ok, header tank=ok, cap=ok, My only other thought was the old oil cooler, however being under there not too long ago, again, this was discounted. After all, cant be the coolant bridge, as that's good as new!

Silly thought - if we are looking toward HG... could a cold pressure test as I did aid you? I'm wondering if you can build the system up to pressure, and assuming the system is holding pressure, would having the plugs out help? if there's something delicate that could be prodded inside each combustion chamber as a 'dipstick' (plastic tie wrap?) - if that comes away with even a spec of coolant on it, you've proved your HG's gone. Obviously depending the severity of the leak you may be talking hours/even overnight.

It's a rather heath robinson/left-field idea, but you'll end up taking the plenum etc.. off anyway to do the HG, so nothing to lose, really.  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 20:45:53
I took the plugs out today, on drivers bank. As cylinder 5 gave me miss-fire before. Bear in mind these plugs have done less than 1,000 miles....

Pot One, looking nice and clean: (as did pot3)

(https://i.postimg.cc/P59fwCgn/IMG-4960.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QrF0dNB/IMG-4961.jpg)

Pot Five However

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJcnmQpn/IMG-4956.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/25WkFzYb/IMG-4959.jpg)

It was slightly cleaner on one side.

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6GqmdZh/IMG-4958.jpg)

Is that a hint of red I see?  :-\ (i put red food colour dye in system)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 10 September 2019, 20:46:50
As a fellow coolant-weeping-V6 owner I can offer my own experiences. I'm still in the middle of doing this myself, mine is/was producing a warm/burning coolant smell - seemed to be toward the scuttle, but no vapour visible. HBV seemed dry, then again sometimes a smell seemed to come form the front of the engine, too. Hoses seemed fine, nothing visible anywhere.

With plenum, fuel rail and sandwich plate off, a bolt jammed in one hose, and a schrader valve in the other, neighbor's bicycle pump attached and the system built upto about 15-17PSI I saw a weep from the coolant bridge. Saddening as this was only done a year or two ago, using brand new dowty washers. Of course what's been happening is it's leaking water - no smell... but only after a while then being burned/boiled off as it sits on the block. It also looks like the auxilliary coolant pump seal has gone, though I can't rule out 100% the hoses to it are past their best too.

I had confirmed she was not leaking anywhere, simple process of elimination. Hoses=ok, HBV=ok, header tank=ok, cap=ok, My only other thought was the old oil cooler, however being under there not too long ago, again, this was discounted. After all, cant be the coolant bridge, as that's good as new!

Silly thought - if we are looking toward HG... could a cold pressure test as I did aid you? I'm wondering if you can build the system up to pressure, and assuming the system is holding pressure, would having the plugs out help? if there's something delicate that could be prodded inside each combustion chamber as a 'dipstick' (plastic tie wrap?) - if that comes away with even a spec of coolant on it, you've proved your HG's gone. Obviously depending the severity of the leak you may be talking hours/even overnight.

It's a rather heath robinson/left-field idea, but you'll end up taking the plenum etc.. off anyway to do the HG, so nothing to lose, really.  :-\

Might be next stage, but looking at plugs this evening, I don't think that's needed.  :'(

Thanks for input though.  :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 September 2019, 21:55:55
Number five looks unwashed...
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 11 September 2019, 11:51:02
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:54:15
HG on 3.2 is MLS, so shouldn't rot with abuse like an older composite.  But given tunnies service schedule, its possible I guess.

But if the coolant isn't going anywhere else, it has to be going inside.

Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 12:17:41
HG on 3.2 is MLS, so shouldn't rot with abuse like an older composite.  But given tunnies service schedule, its possible I guess.

But if the coolant isn't going anywhere else, it has to be going inside.



Coolant fully flushed out 5 years ago, as per GM's long-life. Only done ~35k since then, as I average 7k a year. Cambelt serviced as per schedule annual pollen filter and air filter changes so not sure what schedule you refer to.

There is a clear difference on those spark plugs.  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 12:20:23
4 year service life ::)

As I suggested elsewhere, poor maintenance will kill a car quicker than mileage...
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 12:25:24
Given fact I've spent a lot on welding, annual services, inspections on all belts/fluids/plugs, annual oil changes, brake discs and pads last year, I reject poor maintenance that keeps on being directed at me.

 >:(
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 12:29:50
Given fact I've spent a lot on welding, annual services, inspections on all belts/fluids/plugs, annual oil changes, brake discs and pads last year, I reject poor maintenance that keeps on being directed at me.

 >:(
Yet by your own admission, you last changed the coolant five years ago  :-X
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 12:32:26
And? Itís 5 year stuff.

GM state:

5 years or 150,000 miles

Nabbed from GM: *5 Years Longlife Protection. -36įc (Ambient) Winter Protection.

Like anyone here has not gone over the 4 year belt rule, or bent anything else as per rule book. But thanks as always for your condescending approach to me.

Let's also forget I took my 2.2 past 190k on it's original HG, yet many others failed way before this, despite being looked after.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 12:51:48
But then again I of course neglected my 2.2 with poor serving according to you.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 13:22:59
HG on 3.2 is MLS, so shouldn't rot with abuse like an older composite. But given tunnies service schedule , its possible I guess.

But if the coolant isn't going anywhere else, it has to be going inside.
  :-X
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 13:41:01
Despite what GM shove on the sticker, its not really good for 5 years.  In the same way my XJ shouldn't have to wait 16k for an oil change.  I generally like to change my 5yr coolants at 2-3yrs, and the older 2yr coolant annually (though the Kawasaki was the last vehicle to use that)

Coolant, like oil, starts to degrade from the second it goes in, and I know you're not daft enough to leave your oil in for 20k, as per GM spec.  No offence intended with my earlier remark, but we know from previous posts that the Omega has been at the bottom of the priority pile.  Just offering as a suggestion as to why the normally bombproof 3.2 MLS gasket has failed, *IF* it has.  I'm not yet convinced it has, as a coolant to cylinder failure would often give massive pressure in coolant, and exhaust fumes in coolant bottle.  Personally, I'd be getting my ass in the valley, and pressure the coolant to around 8psi.


As said, not offence intended in any way, and hopefully none has been taken.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 13:51:10
Despite what GM shove on the sticker, its not really good for 5 years.  In the same way my XJ shouldn't have to wait 16k for an oil change.  I generally like to change my 5yr coolants at 2-3yrs, and the older 2yr coolant annually (though the Kawasaki was the last vehicle to use that)

Coolant, like oil, starts to degrade from the second it goes in, and I know you're not daft enough to leave your oil in for 20k, as per GM spec.  No offence intended with my earlier remark, but we know from previous posts that the Omega has been at the bottom of the priority pile.  Just offering as a suggestion as to why the normally bombproof 3.2 MLS gasket has failed, *IF* it has.  I'm not yet convinced it has, as a coolant to cylinder failure would often give massive pressure in coolant, and exhaust fumes in coolant bottle.  Personally, I'd be getting my ass in the valley, and pressure the coolant to around 8psi.

As said, not offence intended in any way, and hopefully none has been taken.

There is no sign of high pressure, everything runs great apart from the drop. The starting issue is now clear, if I leave ignition on for ~5seconds before starting. It now starts smooth, with no issues. Given the amount it lost on Monday (half the header tank) I would have expected it to run poorly, but it was smooth as silk all day and was never down on power.

My next job is to get the Plenum off, I would hope the amount of food colour dye I put in would show if coolant bridge/oil cooler plate was at fault.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 14:10:17
I'll also hold my hand up ashamedly admit that my service schedule hasn't been what I wanted it to be, because life gets in the way, even for my Omega which is, basically my baby. Christ knows what will happen when/if I have kids, priorities.... I suspect they'll just have to go hungry on certain days of the week when my Omega needs money/work!  :D

I'd certainly repeat my earlier post about getting down below the 'Vs' and get some pressure in the system, which I see you're doing so happy days. Though I have in theory 'found' my leak I'm redoing the oil cooler as preventative maintenance, its a nobrainer whilst I'm down there.


Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 14:23:28
My next job is to get the Plenum off, I would hope the amount of food colour dye I put in would show if coolant bridge/oil cooler plate was at fault.
Not sure on food dye, as never used it.  I use a modified cap with a valve in to pressure it up.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 14:34:29
Nowt wrong with that, the only reason I didn't do the cap method - because my dad made one up years ago for a Cav I think..

a) would mean sourcing a known perfect cap - so a brand new one, realistically. Which I'd then drill a hole in, which would make me sad  ;D
b) doing that would mean technically the old cap could still be at fault - you'd never know
c) so b) being the case, it would therefore be worth buying two brand new caps, just to make certain the old cap wasn't at fault...
d) because theres several areas which are well hidden between the Vs that are known failure points all that needs to be off anyway.

hence the two smaller hoses method means the entire system is tested, including header/cap. Also me being stupidly tight and of limited resources (physical and mental) it was a free test. Schrader I had lying around and a bolt.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 11 September 2019, 19:26:17
Starting to think again it's expansion tank, I checked tonight, found moisture around the rim of the cap at the bottom.

Top of the tank is showing signs of the dye.... (before this tank was clear all over, with nice red GM coolant) the dye has affected the colour.

Again, bubbling sounds around cap, if my ear is close.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGK0C0jj/IMG-4967-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Entwood on 11 September 2019, 23:02:45
Expansion tank is prone to minute cracks around the neck where the cap screws on, these can prevent the cap sealing so that it leaks vapour when under pressure, it rarely leaks liquid as there is an "air gap" betwen the surface of the liquid and the cap. However, the loss of pressure reduces the boiling point of the coolant and leads to an increased evaporation of liquid. This could be the reason for your fluid loss.

One way of checking is to run the engine until well hot, ie, the pressure is at its potential maximum, and then to brush a soap solution around the lower edge of the cap, if it is leaking you will get bubbles.

A new expansion tank and cap is less the £50.00 .... :)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 September 2019, 08:09:20
Thanks  :y

Was that £50 from Vauxhall recently? Will call dealer today, but I canít get trade anymore.

I think the dark bits at top, is evaporating coolant, leaving dye behind.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: henryd on 12 September 2019, 10:24:32
Starting to think again it's expansion tank, I checked tonight, found moisture around the rim of the cap at the bottom.

Top of the tank is showing signs of the dye.... (before this tank was clear all over, with nice red GM coolant) the dye has affected the colour.

Again, bubbling sounds around cap, if my ear is close.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGK0C0jj/IMG-4967-1.jpg)

Post up another pic without the cap on showing the neck of the tank,as Entwood says cracks are common there :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 12 September 2019, 10:55:06
Expansion tank is prone to minute cracks around the neck where the cap screws on, these can prevent the cap sealing so that it leaks vapour when under pressure, it rarely leaks liquid as there is an "air gap" betwen the surface of the liquid and the cap. However, the loss of pressure reduces the boiling point of the coolant and leads to an increased evaporation of liquid. This could be the reason for your fluid loss.

One way of checking is to run the engine until well hot, ie, the pressure is at its potential maximum, and then to brush a soap solution around the lower edge of the cap, if it is leaking you will get bubbles
.

A new expansion tank and cap is less the £50.00 .... :)
I advised he put a  washing up/water solution in an old pump spray bottle a while ago and check for gas leaking round the tank and hoses.
did you not try that Mr Tunnie  :-\
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 September 2019, 11:06:37
Starting to think again it's expansion tank, I checked tonight, found moisture around the rim of the cap at the bottom.

Top of the tank is showing signs of the dye.... (before this tank was clear all over, with nice red GM coolant) the dye has affected the colour.

Again, bubbling sounds around cap, if my ear is close.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGK0C0jj/IMG-4967-1.jpg)

Post up another pic without the cap on showing the neck of the tank,as Entwood says cracks are common there :y

Will do, I have inspected it, I could not see any cracks. There were 'whiff's of coolant before new cap.

Expansion tank is prone to minute cracks around the neck where the cap screws on, these can prevent the cap sealing so that it leaks vapour when under pressure, it rarely leaks liquid as there is an "air gap" betwen the surface of the liquid and the cap. However, the loss of pressure reduces the boiling point of the coolant and leads to an increased evaporation of liquid. This could be the reason for your fluid loss.

One way of checking is to run the engine until well hot, ie, the pressure is at its potential maximum, and then to brush a soap solution around the lower edge of the cap, if it is leaking you will get bubbles
.

A new expansion tank and cap is less the £50.00 .... :)
I advised he put a  washing up/water solution in an old pump spray bottle a while ago and check for gas leaking round the tank and hoses.
did you not try that Mr Tunnie  :-\


I did do this, but I did it with engine off, think I need to do it with engine running after it's done a run to/from work. Again it could be so slight that it does not appear. As even over course of an hour, it will drop less than a fingers width in the tank.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 September 2019, 12:25:40
Tank, £71.40 from my local, without a cap, but with a sensor.

Ordered it just to save time, 2 working days so should have it early next week.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 12 September 2019, 13:18:56
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

£71 :o, I paid sub £30 last one I bought probably 3 years ago :o
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 12 September 2019, 13:26:16
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

Which incarnation of Flammable Garages Ltd, though?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 September 2019, 13:54:35
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

£71 :o, I paid sub £30 last one I bought probably 3 years ago :o

Snap. I put a brand new one in 2.2 to tidy up look of engine bay. That was ~7 years ago though!

Had a spare or have a spare?  :)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 12 September 2019, 16:22:57
Pretty certain I have the one off TBE, that I only swapped with the one from the Silver Bullet because that one was newer/cleaner.

But I could have already given it away, and until I get back home, can't confirm.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 12 September 2019, 16:23:20
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

Which incarnation of Flammable Garages Ltd, though?
Defo this side of "the incident"
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: STEMO on 12 September 2019, 16:33:41
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

Which incarnation of Flammable Garages Ltd, though?
I wouldn't.....you may invite comments about kamikaze tiles and shattered basins.  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: aaronjb on 12 September 2019, 16:39:22
Ah, I think I had a spare (used but good) tank in my garage.

Which incarnation of Flammable Garages Ltd, though?
I wouldn't.....you may invite comments about kamikaze tiles and shattered basins.  ;D

At least I still have my post count .. well, this post count. I'm sure I was up to ~10k before it got "reset" last time ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 12 September 2019, 17:45:02
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 12 September 2019, 18:19:12
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D

 :o
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 12 September 2019, 18:34:34
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D
will we ever know though  :-\
that engine had been messed about with before (with added wood  ;D ),maybe miss-diagnosed head gasket was the reason it was messed with, then clearly not put back together very well until you got your hands on it James and sorted it properly
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: STEMO on 12 September 2019, 19:33:54
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D
will we ever know though  :-\
that engine had been messed about with before (with added wood  ;D ),maybe miss-diagnosed head gasket was the reason it was messed with, then clearly not put back together very well until you got your hands on it James and sorted it properly
It had probably been in Cardiff Bay.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 16 September 2019, 22:02:44
Coolant leak worse today, had my suspicions on the coolant tank for a while (it's on order) - Think this proves it....

(https://i.postimg.cc/SxfHp6x8/IMG-5022.jpg)

All around underneath cap was soaking, I made sure it was nice and dry when leaving work after topping it up.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 19 September 2019, 19:58:24
New coolant bottle did not solve the problem  :(
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 September 2019, 20:28:14
New coolant bottle did not solve the problem  :(

Did you bleed it properly?  ::)

Cap off. Fill header. Cabin temp on Hi both sides, fan Lo. Run engine until fans kick in. Burp hoses. Top up and repeat. Cap on tight. And call it done.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 19 September 2019, 23:41:08
 ???
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Jimbob on 23 September 2019, 06:36:08
I'm going to throw another one into the mix, as per my old blue prefacelift....weeping core plug.
From memory what you have is not far from what I experienced.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 23 September 2019, 08:05:27
I'm going to throw another one into the mix, as per my old blue prefacelift....weeping core plug.
From memory what you have is not far from what I experienced.

Thanks.  :y  How was it diagnosed/tracked down?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Jimbob on 23 September 2019, 13:45:10
Unfortunately, it was effectlively nothing else it could be.
Pressures tests all done, everything else ruled out.
Been to sleep too many times since to remember too much
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: tunnie on 23 September 2019, 15:04:19
No worries, one thing though, did yours suffer a miss-fire when cold?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 23 September 2019, 15:48:49
This is heresy......  :o  So burn me at the stake by all means!  :)

But...  If you are convinced it is the head gasket.... and it's headed for the scrappy?  ???

You could chuck a bottle of K-Seal or similar in it.....   :-X  With a bit of thought and bodgery, it would be easy enough to bypass the matrix as well.  :y

Boom!  :o  There.... I said it!  :D  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 September 2019, 15:50:52
He won't have time for that...
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 23 September 2019, 16:22:38
Wondaweld  (http://MV52 ZVM) would cure it * IMHO
coats everything in a sticky,rubbery shell.
I've used it ,car did 35k ,2 years ,then scrapped it for other reasons

* if used correctly ,empty and flush all coolant BEFORE treatment ,flush everything out well after and put the coolant back in

K seal has bits of copper that ,if lucky, may catch and plug the hole/fail , I'm not a fan

but if Tunnie intends to scrap it anyway ,wondaweld would be the way I would go , may give him another 2 years for £13 spend and a couple of hours work ,



Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: STEMO on 23 September 2019, 16:51:36
Many moons ago I put radweld in one of my cars (I forget which) and forgot about it for the two years or so till I traded it. Cars were much more simple then, not so many things to get clogged by it.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Shackeng on 23 September 2019, 17:10:18
Many moons ago I put radweld in one of my cars (I forget which) and forgot about it for the two years or so till I traded it. Cars were much more simple then, not so many things to get clogged by it.

Ahh yes, one of the must have items in the Holts " Sell your car" kit, along with Gungum, Isopon and Tyre black.  ::)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 23 September 2019, 17:26:17
Many moons ago I put radweld in one of my cars (I forget which) and forgot about it for the two years or so till I traded it. Cars were much more simple then, not so many things to get clogged by it.

Ahh yes, one of the must have items in the Holts " Sell your car" kit, along with Gungum, Isopon and Tyre black.  ::)
Isopon P38 filler is expensive  :o, wet bread ,newspaper ,gaffer tape or anything to hand ,and a good coat of underseal (sand and old paint) provides adequate visual enhancement to achieve a sale  :y
silicone dash spray and a magic tree air freshener to hide the stench
and sawdust to keep that pesky diff quiet for the test drive  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: STEMO on 23 September 2019, 17:30:26
Many moons ago I put radweld in one of my cars (I forget which) and forgot about it for the two years or so till I traded it. Cars were much more simple then, not so many things to get clogged by it.

Ahh yes, one of the must have items in the Holts " Sell your car" kit, along with Gungum, Isopon and Tyre black.  ::)
Isopon P38 filler is expensive  :o, wet bread ,newspaper ,gaffer tape or anything to hand ,and a good coat of underseal (sand and old paint) provides adequate visual enhancement to achieve a sale  :y
silicone dash spray and a magic tree air freshener to hide the stench
and sawdust to keep that pesky diff quiet for the test drive  ;D
But remember to remove the magic tree before.............


Answers on a postcard please.  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: henryd on 23 September 2019, 17:47:16
this stuff works
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/233222217957?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=233222217957&targetid=520070937773&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006785&poi=&campaignid=6466484585&mkgroupid=76351784566&rlsatarget=aud-498165878543:pla-520070937773&abcId=1139366&merchantid=7397344&gclid=CjwKCAjw2qHsBRAGEiwAMbPoDGg3lUV2ag8T7j5y7ffMpJ4amTOkHntBLPMI4OY7XlvpR9Jr3X0YnxoCbQIQAvD_BwE

Customer tried it on an old shitter that he was going to scrap and it ran on for 2 years until the mot put paid to it,engine was still ok and it wasn't usable before adding that concoction ::)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 23 September 2019, 17:56:56

But remember to remove the magic tree before.............

Answers on a postcard please.  ;D
I'm poor and can't afford a postage stamp  :(
BUT
remove magic tree before .....
MOT

"driver's view of the road obscured"
or
on the road driving  clicky   (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drivers-face-1000-fine-3-14232030)  :-X
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: STEMO on 23 September 2019, 18:29:17

But remember to remove the magic tree before.............

Answers on a postcard please.  ;D
I'm poor and can't afford a postage stamp  :(
BUT
remove magic tree before .....
MOT

"driver's view of the road obscured"
or
on the road driving  clicky   (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drivers-face-1000-fine-3-14232030)  :-X
Oh dear, Dave, we don't mention things like that on here. Not since a certain grumpy admin got failed on an MOT for it, anyway. Been nice knowin ya  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Bigron on 23 September 2019, 18:31:30
When we had tax discs, we were instructed to place them on the lower left hand side of the windscreen so that plod/traffic wardens could persecute prosecute us.

Ron,
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: dave the builder on 23 September 2019, 18:45:28

But remember to remove the magic tree before.............

Answers on a postcard please.  ;D
I'm poor and can't afford a postage stamp  :(
BUT
remove magic tree before .....
MOT

"driver's view of the road obscured"
or
on the road driving  clicky   (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/drivers-face-1000-fine-3-14232030)  :-X
Oh dear, Dave, we don't mention things like that on here. Not since a certain grumpy admin got failed on an MOT for it, anyway. Been nice knowin ya  ;D
oh dear  ;D
poor chap
it could be argued that the NT should have picked up the obscured view on pre MOT walk-around .....
as could the presenter  ;D  :-X
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 September 2019, 18:49:20
That would imply a level of responsibility  ;D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: TheBoy on 23 September 2019, 19:11:56
This is heresy......  :o  So burn me at the stake by all means!  :)

But...  If you are convinced it is the head gasket.... and it's headed for the scrappy?  ???

You could chuck a bottle of K-Seal or similar in it.....   :-X  With a bit of thought and bodgery, it would be easy enough to bypass the matrix as well.  :y

Boom!  :o  There.... I said it!  :D  ;D
But prove it first ;)

The OP has yet to do any basic diags for this.
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 September 2019, 19:30:00
This is heresy......  :o  So burn me at the stake by all means!  :)

But...  If you are convinced it is the head gasket.... and it's headed for the scrappy?  ???

You could chuck a bottle of K-Seal or similar in it.....   :-X  With a bit of thought and bodgery, it would be easy enough to bypass the matrix as well.  :y

Boom!  :o  There.... I said it!  :D  ;D
But prove it first ;)

The OP has yet to do any basic diags for this.

.. and K seal doesn't fix head gaskets anything. ::)
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 September 2019, 19:31:13
Just the thing then :D
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Raeturbo on 24 September 2019, 23:43:39
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D
.
                 Oh aye it was gone alright, but it is still running like a watch thanks to you James :y :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 September 2019, 01:08:31
Are we going to have the first confirmed case of hgf on a 3.2 ?

It wouldnít be the first. Ask Rae turbo! His was so badly gone, that on turning over the engine, coolant came out of the spark plug holes  ;D
.
                 Oh aye it was gone alright, but it is still running like a watch thanks to you James :y :y

Genuinely chuffed mate. Really pleased the job went so well. I must admit, when I

A) started it up, and saw the immediate hot-tub bubble effect in the header tank, and
B) compression tested it, and saw all the coolant flying out of the plug holes

I did have a tiny, nagging, inner worry, that she might have met her maker

But.... two good heads, and time taken over fitting everything neatly......   has clearly paid off in your case :y :y

I remember the (understandable!) negativity (maybe that's the wrong word - reluctance?) from the general community, around fixing the lump in situ, as opposed to dropping in a new engine.... but I'm so glad now that we gave it a go, not least because it paid off!!!

I'm just sorry it took a few months to do it all, a couple of hours car work these days is still my limit, sadly.... but that's much better than not being able to do any  :y :y :y
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: JamesV6CDX on 25 September 2019, 01:10:04
Tunnie, is this car your daily driver?
Title: Re: Coolant leak
Post by: Raeturbo on 25 September 2019, 10:25:02
James Iíve spent a fortune on it since then new exhaust, fixing aircon new wishbones control arms blah blah but as we all know on here itís worth it when you get them right. And at 210.000 it really is faultless now and drives and pulls very well indeed. Hope it wonít be long for you to get yours just right too mate :y