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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 14:54:18

Title: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 14:54:18
Scanned through and following codes...

B1000
B1100
B1101
B1701

Tried both keys same result.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Andy B on 22 July 2019, 14:58:25
I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....

What code reader are you using? It seems that Mercs don't like talking to generic code readers and can be a little vague with their codes.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 14:59:38
I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....
Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October :-X
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: STEMO on 22 July 2019, 15:06:04
I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....
Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October :-X
That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Andy B on 22 July 2019, 15:13:15
I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....
Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October :-X
That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.
The Smart specialist that my Smart is at has a great knowledge of these specific vehicles (& has access to many already dead Smarts) but is 'scratching his head' .... so Dr G has my sympathies  :(
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 15:20:06
I hope you have more luck than I've had with my dead Smart 451 .....
Well, it's probably cost me my contract at the end of October :-X
That's a defeatist attitude considering your knowledge of vehicles.
Not really... Don't be late and don't be sick if you want a permanent contract. I am already late.

Awaiting breakdown, as my black box is certain that it's immobiliser related. And can't give me any live data without the engine running... Doesn't see the rpm when cranking, for example.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: STEMO on 22 July 2019, 15:21:24
Hmmmm.........that's not good. A car shouldn't just 'die' and be impossible to diagnose, even if it's the electronics that are at fault.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: dave the builder on 22 July 2019, 15:39:50
oh dear
when your recovered and have chance ,check fuses,battery voltage, earth points etc
sounds like a  CAN communication issue between modules or power to one or more
you should be able to read ecm even with generic reader but if there is no canbus communication it all goes to sh!t
sometimes removing the battery does reset coms ,sometimes unplugging modules and plugging back in solves it
obviously this is just generic advice,not merc or model specific
 
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Andy B on 22 July 2019, 15:50:19
oh dear
when your recovered and have chance ,check fuses,battery voltage, earth points etc
sounds like a  CAN communication issue between modules or power to one or more
you should be able to read ecm even with generic reader but if there is no canbus communication it all goes to sh!t
sometimes removing the battery does reset coms ,sometimes unplugging modules and plugging back in solves it
obviously this is just generic advice,not merc or model specific

canbus communication or lack of is my Smart's problem .... disconnecting the battery by the recovery bloke doesn't seem to have done it any favours
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 16:10:28
It had a few other codes but they all cleared except the immobiliser ones.

I run Carsoft MB on a dedicated laptop, and it's a bit clunky, but basically the order of attack is:

1. Full scan.
2. Single scan of each 'not ok' module.
3. Clear codes.
4. Rescan to ensure codes remain clear or present.
5. Once single scans done then repeat complete scan.

Usually comes back all good, so when all is left is the immobiliser codes, then reasonably confident that's where the problem lies :-\

Battery ok, likewise fuses.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: biggriffin on 22 July 2019, 17:40:29
Battery in key fob?
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Raeturbo on 22 July 2019, 18:01:17
Have you kept your keys near you phone? Sometimes this can mess them up
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 18:14:47
Breakdown/recovery bloke turned up. Jumped out with a booster pack.  ::)

Me: It cranks.
Him: Oh. Okay.

Tries it, gets out his code reader and concludes that there are no codes  ::) Then pokes around under the bonnet, goes back to the truck and returns. "See what happens with some easystart..."
Me: I'd prefer that you didn't...
Him: Pssssh. Try it now.

Of course it started and ran. Until the easystart ran out >:(

His opinion is fuel pump, but I elected not to get it towed because there's no point paying a garage to do summat that I can easily do on the drive.

Fuses checked, relay worked but clicked of as cranked.
Bridged the relay and no pump. Ffs.

Kicked it and tried again. Pump ran. So refitted relay and tried again and it started.

But, still have all the immobiliser codes, the EML is now on (wasn't before  >:( and can't reset it because the engine ecu isn't talking to anyone although it gives live data when it's running) , and get to work to find the central locking has stopped working.

All in all, not impressed.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 18:16:24
Battery in key fob?
Will replace to rule out.

Have you kept your keys near you phone? Sometimes this can mess them up
Not experienced this before, but not as a general occurrence  :-\
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 18:40:41
Looking at the codes and comms issues it appears that there's a CANbus problem somewhere.

Oh happy opposing days...
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 18:42:31
On a positive note, a new Bosch pump is only about 65, even though the tank needs dropping ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 22 July 2019, 18:48:45
My Mercedes is currently also cranking but wont start. Nothing to do with electronics as it doesnt have any, but I have a gut feeling it may be a serious issue. Could be looking for another one next week.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 22 July 2019, 19:07:33
Fairly short list of potentials on one of those :'(
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: STEMO on 22 July 2019, 19:27:00
My Mercedes is currently also cranking but wont start. Nothing to do with electronics as it doesnt have any, but I have a gut feeling it may be a serious issue. Could be looking for another one next week.
Don't forget to drain the fuel tank before it goes, there might be as much as 1's worth in there.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 22 July 2019, 19:32:40
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy wnother half decent one though.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2019, 09:08:55
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2019, 09:09:28
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy wnother half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 July 2019, 10:13:36
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.
The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module...  :-\
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2019, 10:15:30
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.
The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module...  :-\

It happens quite regularly, if a module is a bit slow to boot up a CAN frame gets missed and it flags a CAN fault issue. These are often masked at end of line and never cause a significant issue.

So what codes are actually present and wont clear (with engine running);
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: STEMO on 23 July 2019, 10:21:29
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.
The climate control has a single fault relating to CAN communication with the engine module...  :-\

It happens quite regularly, if a module is a bit slow to boot up a CAN frame gets missed and it flags a CAN fault issue. These are often masked at end of line and never cause a significant issue.

So what codes are actually present and wont clear (with engine running);
Fault code 000001..........this car is a Mercedes Benz  ;D
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 July 2019, 10:42:11
 :P

FZZ (immobiliser control module):
B1000
B1100
B1101
B1701

MSM (Throttle body):
Status:ERROR> Read error memory.
No codes displayed.

AC:
B1040
B1272

Think that's all that returns. Will double check later/tomorrow.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2019, 11:22:53
Has the battery and connections all been ok?

Mercs throw real wobbles when you get battery issues and you have a spread of codes
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: dave the builder on 23 July 2019, 12:43:53
also alternator over voltage or under voltage or a component/fault causing a parasitic draw can upset modules
so worth checking battery and alternator voltages  :-\
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 July 2019, 12:49:25
Has the battery and connections all been ok?

Mercs throw real wobbles when you get battery issues and you have a spread of codes
Battery is relatively new, 6 months perhaps... will run KWs tests ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Andy B on 23 July 2019, 13:18:00
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y

CAN doesn't just fail, its always a module, the major question is which one, if a unit communicates by some means, even if its only fault codes then CAN is fine.

In general, the BCM/Gateway (for DoIP) is the CAN master on most vehicles built in the last 15 years (although GM did use the display as a CAN bridge on some vehicles) or so, always worth a check.

I think this might the problem with my Smart 451 .... 2 garages have had 'communication problems'  :-\ I wonder if MB themselves might be worth a go.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: TheBoy on 23 July 2019, 17:34:16
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y
This is as true as 30 years ago when every mechanic blames the engine ECU for everything.

There is nothing difficult about CANBUS from a diags perspective, its just its "new"* and mechanics# distrust what they haven't grasped.


* New as in most car designs for the last 15+ years have used it almost exclusively

# Term used in the loose sense, to cover the usual knuckle draggers found at all dealerships
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 23 July 2019, 19:09:39
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors.  :(
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump.  :-\
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 23 July 2019, 21:30:03
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors.  :(
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump.  :-\
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click  :y
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Kevin Wood on 23 July 2019, 22:10:06
Every mechanic I know blames CAN when they don't understand CAN  :y
This is as true as 30 years ago when every mechanic blames the engine ECU for everything.

There is nothing difficult about CANBUS from a diags perspective, its just its "new"* and mechanics# distrust what they haven't grasped.


* New as in most car designs for the last 15+ years have used it almost exclusively

# Term used in the loose sense, to cover the usual knuckle draggers found at all dealerships

I got given the task of developing a CAN module to drive a Ford Sierra rear light cluster for one of my A level electronics practicals so it's been around for at least 30 years, although it had a very slow start. ;D
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 23 July 2019, 23:22:22
Mercedes were an early adapter in the '91-'98 S Class with more and more complexity* in subsequent cars...

* this is actually an achievement as the W140 is stupidly over done :D

Jesting aside, is there a decent, straightforward book about CAN in order to get a better understanding of how it works?
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 23 July 2019, 23:44:12
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors.  :(
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump.  :-\
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click  :y

Will need to check, but I don't think there is a solenoid or anything else electrical connected to the pump. I think its all mechanical.
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Marks DTM Calib on 24 July 2019, 07:54:34
Its got a couple of gallons of diesel in there at the moment.  Typical. ;D
Im actually confident I would get at least what I paid for it even if the engine is fooked. It will cost  lot more than that to buy another half decent one though.

Its not as simple as the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump?

Cracked the injector pipes open and fuel is getting up to the injectors.  :(
Gut feeling suspects are - air leaking into fuel supply, which is known to cause havoc. Knackered pump, which almost certainly means the end of the car. Head gasket, which will probably be the same result as knackered pump.  :-\
I will try to find out from tomorrow when I should have time to have a play.

For awareness, you can still get fuel.to the rail with a knackered solenoid (as I discovered recently on a 1.6D VW engine).

However, there is no pressure behind it so it does  not crack the injectors (Bosch pump).

It's worth applying 12V direct to the solenoid to see if you can hear or feel it go click  :y

Will need to check, but I don't think there is a solenoid or anything else electrical connected to the pump. I think its all mechanical.

A quick check suggests its vac operated (the Merc designers have a constant love of steam age vac operated setups for some reason). So check your vac connections
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 24 July 2019, 08:27:51
Will do, thanks. :y

Apologies to DG for thread hijack.  :-[ :D
Title: Re: Mercedes W168 A160 cranking but not starting.
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 04 August 2019, 17:40:51
Just a quick update, finally got around to checking for codes and the voltages.

Cleaned the MAF sensor... it was quite sooty :-\ and ran the diagnostics again, took several attempts with the ignition on, off and running, but eventually got some sense out of the engine ecu. Reset it and now no EML 8)

Battery/alternator checked out and on the OK side of inconclusive. Load applied was heated rear screen, headlights + main beam and blower on full.

Battery ign off, 14v.
Battery ign off load, dropped to 12.4v.
Cranking minimum, split second 10.39v.
Idle no load 13.99v.
Fast idle no load 14.08v
Idle load 13.8v
Fast idle load 14.08v

All perfectly OK, if a smidge low at fast idle.

Battery was brand new, around Easter iirc.

Touch wood, no further fuel pump issues either.