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Chat Area => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: redelitev6 on 21 August 2019, 12:12:20

Title: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: redelitev6 on 21 August 2019, 12:12:20
Looks like someone got the sums wrong big time or could it be Brexit related ?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 August 2019, 12:30:01
I suggest we spend the money on a giant 3 day bender for the whole country.

When I say 'bender' I obviously mean........ :)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 21 August 2019, 13:11:30
£7 billion of your money already spent.

Might go £30 billion over budget

How on earth can they under estimate by so much!
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 21 August 2019, 13:20:43
£7 billion of your money already spent.

Might go £30 billion over budget

How on earth can they under estimate by so much!
Quite easily, I should think. Can you imagine what kind of impossible exercise trying to guess what something as huge as HS2 would cost? Just for starters, how could they possibly estimate how much it would cost to buy up all the properties that either needed to be demolished, or the owners compensated for a drop in value? That piece of the equation alone would make your mind boggle.
There must be thousands, or even tens, hundreds of thousands of different contracts related to costs. No way were they ever going to get anywhere near an accurate figure.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 21 August 2019, 13:23:10
Yes, although I agree in principle with building these HS lines, a review of how the costs of any government civil engineering project escalates from the original estimates must be put under the microscope.

It appears to me that, historically and with this particular civil engineering project, no one person is taking on managerial responsibility and the contractors that give the original estimates cannot be exceeded by, say, 10% and the public purse is not an open bank for them.

In my professional experience, dealing with building and shop fitting contractors, I obtained estimates, if not firm quotes, for any work required, that had to be signed off by a board director. So, say the £100k work was just that, and if contractors wished to stay as that for our company, they would not dare to suggest any other inflated cost figure, and they also had to complete within a specified time scale unless a very good reason prevented them for doing so.  One director actually allowed a store refit, albeit will a special research development element, to escalate to £1.8 million from an original estimate of under half that. Our mother company board, and the shareholders, removed that director very swiftly! It seems no individual - civil servant or politician - is brought to judgement on these "over budget" "over time" issues and we the general public are just saddled with the bill!

This seems to me typical of public civil engineering projects where the public are paying.  Always has been, and until the practice is allotted the good management practices I am used to, it will just continue.

I have been monitoring such a civil engineering works over the last five months that are going on in Penge, South London. I have been taking my boyfriend, a builder, to that location for his doctors once a month, arriving there at about 0700.  A Thames Water project is under way to lay new water pipes at that location. I have noted that the "workers" all wearing Thames Water high visibility overalls stroll along in groups from about 0800 hours, onwards.  They then stand around have drinks, or just standing around talking and sitting on bollards and garden walls. They then as individuals move a few traffic cones around, then repeat that process, then kick a few to reposition them, and them stack a few of the cones, and move them around, re-positioning them constantly. Then there is another session of standing around, sitting on walls, and just stretching, then talking for 20 minutes.  A digger may be started up and used to dig their hole for 10 minutes, then the dump truck it has filled with spoil moves away, the digger turned off, and up to six guys start talking in groups, sitting around, terribly sorry old boy, I am a little tireding, stretching, pushing some cones around again, then often slowly walking up the road in groups and coming back after 15 minutes with cups of drink.  Then their is yet another period of talking, laughing, until.....they move around the site.........and the digger starts again for another 10 minutes. So the process continues, and surprise, surprise, the trench that they have been digging has advanced all of 5 metres over the five months I have been watching them!!

Now I am no civil engineer or builder, although my friend is and he is amazed by what he has seen. I am though a very experienced manager of people and resource, so I am qualified to say that there is no way these Thames Water crews being properly managed, by good instruction and monitoring, with a good kick up the arse when objectives are not achieved within a set time period.  They appear to be floating around and doing what they want, when they want to.  Thames Water customers are obviously paying through their water rates for all this inefficiency, and the shareholders do not care because they are still benefiting from the dividends being paid to them as the customers will just pay endlessly for the 'work' no matter how expensively that is undertaken.

This appears to me a microcosm of the British civil engineering disease that scaled up is Cross Rail or HS2.  If the public is paying, an open cheque book exists!!  In the commercial arena, with limits on what can be spent within profit considerations, this does not usually happen.

That is what needs to change with our governments and the robotic civil servants, lacking in commercial training or considerations, so we the public do get value for money, and contractors know in advance that the "estimate", if not quote, they give cannot be continually exceeded  beyond 10% without severe financial and professional penalty.  They are meant to be fully qualified professionals in their field, and it should be demanded they act accordingly without excuses. >:(
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 August 2019, 13:28:08
£7 billion of your money already spent.

Might go £30 billion over budget

How on earth can they under estimate by so much!
Quite easily, I should think. Can you imagine what kind of impossible exercise trying to guess what something as huge as HS2 would cost? Just for starters, how could they possibly estimate how much it would cost to buy up all the properties that either needed to be demolished, or the owners compensated for a drop in value? That piece of the equation alone would make your mind boggle.
There must be thousands, or even tens, hundreds of thousands of different contracts related to costs. No way were they ever going to get anywhere near an accurate figure.

I think the point Varche is trying to make is that they always estimate a low figure rather than a high figure.


How often does a contractor say ........we estimated 125 billion but it only cost 60 billion. Have a drink on us.  :)

Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 21 August 2019, 13:44:25
I suppose it is deliberate ploy to provide an unworkable low estimate in order to win the contract, knowing that once the ink is dry they can charge whatever they wish. :-\
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 21 August 2019, 13:45:41
£7 billion of your money already spent.

Might go £30 billion over budget

How on earth can they under estimate by so much!
Quite easily, I should think. Can you imagine what kind of impossible exercise trying to guess what something as huge as HS2 would cost? Just for starters, how could they possibly estimate how much it would cost to buy up all the properties that either needed to be demolished, or the owners compensated for a drop in value? That piece of the equation alone would make your mind boggle.
There must be thousands, or even tens, hundreds of thousands of different contracts related to costs. No way were they ever going to get anywhere near an accurate figure.

I think the point Varche is trying to make is that they always estimate a low figure rather than a high figure.


How often does a contractor say ........we estimated 125 billion but it only cost 60 billion. Have a drink on us.  :)
Of course. A contractor will always lure you in with a competitive price and then, when you're too far in to cancel, hit you with the actual cost. You could make them sign all sorts of contracts, with price and time scale included, but if they go bust it doesn't help anyone. It happened to Carillion and look at the mess they left.

But I think HS2 was a case of it just being near impossible to estimate.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 21 August 2019, 14:02:04
I suppose it is deliberate ploy to provide an unworkable low estimate in order to win the contract, knowing that once the ink is dry they can charge whatever they wish. :-\


Don't forget the military projects which were done on a cost plus basis - you tell us how much it cost in the end, and we'll pay a guaranteed profit on top :o
There's no incentive for speed, efficiency, cost effectiveness, reading the brief properly or even honesty. Especially honesty.


HS2 was always going to be a spectacularly expensive white elephant, sucking the money out of far more useful infrastructure.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 21 August 2019, 14:56:56
I suppose it is deliberate ploy to provide an unworkable low estimate in order to win the contract, knowing that once the ink is dry they can charge whatever they wish. :-\

And that, as I said in my post above, is what must change :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 21 August 2019, 17:44:10
The review is a waste of time, the outcome is already known.  Look at the person in charge of the review.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: redelitev6 on 21 August 2019, 17:53:33
Some guy on the radio was quoting £400 million a mile  :o
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 21 August 2019, 17:57:23
As to estimating costs, the fact they can't show what a shower they are.  Its never going to a penny accurate, but to be the order of magnitude out that it is shows either incompetence or figure massaging to get it through. Or both.


The business plan, remember, was based on it costing £23bn for Phase 1 (I'll pick the higher of the 2 figures their initial published figures - even then their own sums were no adding up), and that it would save industry billions because of shorter train journeys, and people would be able to work on the trains.  Thus, with the taxpayer paying 100% of the construction costs, the taxpayer would only have to subsidise every single fare by 60%.  That's assuming that every single train is filled to capacity, and there is a train every 3 minutes.  That was their business case.


The £30bn overrun is just the first instalment.  Given the cost figures that were picked to make sums add, rather than based on any planning on costs, added to the incompetence of the civil service (HS2 Ltd is effectively a subsidiary of Network Rail), if that figure doesn't become £300bn I will be shocked.

Reality is, as the review is a whitewash - the guy running it is the guy who put together the original business case, so either has to admit he lied or randomly guessed, or just lie further - so we'll spend £100-200bn on it, then it will get the plug pulled, and it will go from nowhere to nowhere.

On the offchance that Phase 2b gets completed - it won't - the whole scheme will be such a monumental flop (remember, every train has to be 100% full, and run every 3 mins, all day every day, to meet the requirement of every fare only needing a 60% subsidy) that it will be decommissioned faster than Beeching could manage.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 21 August 2019, 18:03:30
This is all like the joke.

A council meeting.

Item1 . New power station £100 million. Agreed

Item2  new bus shelter roof. £748 . Gosh that seems a lot. Our Gary had a new roof on his shed done by Dave. That was bigger and only cost £500. Go out to tender again and get a lower figure.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 21 August 2019, 19:37:08
This is all like the joke.

A council meeting.

Item1 . New power station £100 million. Agreed

Item2  new bus shelter roof. £748 . Gosh that seems a lot. Our Gary had a new roof on his shed done by Dave. That was bigger and only cost £500. Go out to tender again and get a lower figure.
Your Gary's roof is leaking already ,but it's OK ,It was a cash job, I changed my mobile number  ;D
off to build a power station now  :D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 21 August 2019, 19:47:25
This is all like the joke.

A council meeting.

Item1 . New power station £100 million. Agreed

Item2  new bus shelter roof. £748 . Gosh that seems a lot. Our Gary had a new roof on his shed done by Dave. That was bigger and only cost £500. Go out to tender again and get a lower figure.
Your Gary's roof is leaking already ,but it's OK ,It was a cash job, I changed my mobile number  ;D
off to build a power station now  :D

That is fine and good news. The minutes taker thought it was £100 million as that is a large number but it was a typo and should have been £100 billion.. when can you start?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 21 August 2019, 20:06:54
This is all like the joke.

A council meeting.

Item1 . New power station £100 million. Agreed

Item2  new bus shelter roof. £748 . Gosh that seems a lot. Our Gary had a new roof on his shed done by Dave. That was bigger and only cost £500. Go out to tender again and get a lower figure.
Your Gary's roof is leaking already ,but it's OK ,It was a cash job, I changed my mobile number  ;D
off to build a power station now  :D

That is fine and good news. The minutes taker thought it was £100 million as that is a large number but it was a typo and should have been £100 billion.. when can you start?
I'll need a 10 million cash deposit
for materials and to renew my passport
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 21 August 2019, 21:05:50
More good news.

As one of the 3000 project managers, I have £10 million in contingency fund . I have shown it as equipment.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 21 August 2019, 21:26:07
More good news.

As one of the 3000 project managers, I have £10 million in contingency fund . I have shown it as equipment.
no need , I have my own shovel and pick axe
I can charge a flat fee of 10k per week for hire, wear n tear etc
we can waste that contingency elsewhere  :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 21 August 2019, 21:37:37
More good news.

As one of the 3000 project managers, I have £10 million in contingency fund . I have shown it as equipment.


Presumably the equipment is 'stored' at a secure location, with expensive security guards and dogs?? That it's your brother's allotment where he keeps a demented Jack Russell is something we'll keep to ourselves. And the bank manager, obviously ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 21 August 2019, 21:53:41
More good news.

As one of the 3000 project managers, I have £10 million in contingency fund . I have shown it as equipment.


Presumably the equipment is 'stored' at a secure location, with expensive security guards and dogs?? That it's your brother's allotment where he keeps a demented Jack Russell is something we'll keep to ourselves. And the bank manager, obviously ;D
:-\
Too expensive. I marked it as a write down this afternoon and overnight that will automatically start become a write off.  Old equipment - stuff doesn't last forever.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 22 August 2019, 17:03:04
The yocal farmers around here ain't happy, as a lot of the compounds have been started on their fields, just before harvest time, destroying the harvest.  And they haven't seen any money from HS2 Ltd yet for temporary use of the land (a few years).

Still, at least its consistent, as many of those getting compulsory purchase orders are yet to be paid, and are being offered way below market value.  Which means many are going to court, which will be more expense and more delays.


Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 23 August 2019, 02:27:59
Taxpayer money tree, so why spare any expense?

[digression]
Glacial speed is another reason when the government & railways are involved, the West Heathrow loop was proposed in 2012 connecting Reading & Slough to Terminal 5 with a 3.4mile link which would be operational by 2020, this has slipped to 2024, if we are lucky!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rail_Approach_to_Heathrow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Rail_Approach_to_Heathrow)

Don't ask if & when the Heathrow Southern Railway link will be built where it was proposed in 2017 with a tentative operational date of 2025-27 for it's mighty 8 miles of new track.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_Southern_Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathrow_Southern_Railway)

I fully support both of these privately financed lines that IMO should have been build years a go, where trying to get to Heathrow as our premier UK airport from the West/South West using public transport has always been a joke & at long last we will have decent connections.
[/digression]

So with HS2 you have all this money wasting jobs for Civil Servants, who can put in on average 10 minutes in the morning between first & seconds tea breaks & then after a leisurely 1-2 hour lunch they can do another 10 minutes between tea breaks three & four, before leaving on the dot from all this exhausting hard work. :D :D :D

Another major escalation on costs is climate fraud where it need to be 'carbon neutral' & lined with thousands of noisy bird slaughterers so at the bottom of the next carbon cycle we drop below 120ppm & all C3 plants and almost all animal life dies, swell. Hard-left tree huggers are happy to destroy life on earth to get rid of their hated capitalist Western civilization & most animal life as collateral damage is acceptable. They have never forgiven us for defeating their Marxist ideology in 1991 with the fall of the Soviet Union & China seeing their only survival path for their Communism was by bolting capitalism on to the side of it. Climate fraud where I have been digging on the history of this was started in the 1990's but a group of UN Canadian environmentalists where the West is based on abundant, cheap, reliable, energy. A clever new front by the hard-left to prove they had lost a Marxist battle but by no means lost their subversive war.

The rich play holier-than-though by offsetting their carbon footprint while the many plebs pick up the real costs like HS2 cost escalation, expensive, rare, unreliable energy & the steady deindustrialization of the West where India & China are happy with their 550 coal fired power stations under construction to become the industrial powerhouses of the 21st century as we descend to 3rd world status industrially & culturally.

Spending on bad 'white elephant' projects that will never come near to paying for themselves, just weakens a country & it should IMO be scrapped.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: BazaJT on 23 August 2019, 09:56:58
If/as/when the HS2 gets up and running how much time will it save on the journey time? Will any/all of these time savings be made by stopping at fewer stations than at present? Personally I think it should be binned and more research/effort put into developing the "next step" whatever that may be rather than trying to make Victorian technology go faster.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 23 August 2019, 10:20:18

Another major escalation on costs is climate fraud where it need to be 'carbon neutral' & lined with thousands of noisy bird slaughterers so at the bottom of the next carbon cycle we drop below 120ppm & all C3 plants and almost all animal life dies, swell. Hard-left tree huggers are happy to destroy life on earth to get rid of their hated capitalist Western civilization & most animal life as collateral damage is acceptable.

It's OK Rods, they're solving this little problem in Brazil by burning down the Amazon and the Russians have been doing their bit in Siberia as well!  :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 23 August 2019, 10:33:15

Another major escalation on costs is climate fraud where it need to be 'carbon neutral' & lined with thousands of noisy bird slaughterers so at the bottom of the next carbon cycle we drop below 120ppm & all C3 plants and almost all animal life dies, swell. Hard-left tree huggers are happy to destroy life on earth to get rid of their hated capitalist Western civilization & most animal life as collateral damage is acceptable.

It's OK Rods, they're solving this little problem in Brazil by burning down the Amazon and the Russians have been doing their bit in Siberia as well!  :y

Start a new thread! A lot of people will be thinking these wildfires are started accidentally . Most are not. In the amazon it is all about creating new farming areas.

The amazon creates only 20% of the earths oxygen.At what point would other countries intervene if a country is impoverishing the world e.g. oxygen.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migalot on 26 August 2019, 23:31:57
The amazon creates only 20% of the earths oxygen.At what point would other countries intervene if a country is impoverishing the world e.g. oxygen.

The Amazon rainforest does NOT produce 20 per cent of the world’s oxygen
From a 2014 New York Times article by Nadine Unger, Assistant Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry at Yale:
Moreover, it is a myth that photosynthesis controls the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Even if all photosynthesis on the planet were shut down, the atmosphere’s oxygen content would change by less than 1 percent. The Amazon rain forest is often perceived as the lungs of the planet. In fact, almost all the oxygen the Amazon produces during the day remains there and is reabsorbed by the forest at night. In other words, the Amazon rain forest is a closed system that uses all its own oxygen and carbon dioxide.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/ (https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 26 August 2019, 23:51:04
The amazon creates only 20% of the earths oxygen.At what point would other countries intervene if a country is impoverishing the world e.g. oxygen.

The Amazon rainforest does NOT produce 20 per cent of the world’s oxygen
From a 2014 New York Times article by Nadine Unger, Assistant Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry at Yale:
Moreover, it is a myth that photosynthesis controls the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Even if all photosynthesis on the planet were shut down, the atmosphere’s oxygen content would change by less than 1 percent. The Amazon rain forest is often perceived as the lungs of the planet. In fact, almost all the oxygen the Amazon produces during the day remains there and is reabsorbed by the forest at night. In other words, the Amazon rain forest is a closed system that uses all its own oxygen and carbon dioxide.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/ (https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/)

Funnily enough, for some time now I have been reading about the earths oxygen.

A half comes from stuff in the sea like plankton.

The other half comes from plantlife.  Accepted that the Amazon basin is huge but if the 20% is right then the other 30% that comes from land based plantlife is from the rest of the earth. I would agree with you . It may well be 10% or less.

Good to so G6 coughing up 10 million each to help that awful Bolsinara in putting the fires out. Fire planes plus his alleged 45,000 troops should help. What plant and animal species are we losing through destroying Amazon rainforests?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migalot on 27 August 2019, 00:04:34
The amazon creates only 20% of the earths oxygen.At what point would other countries intervene if a country is impoverishing the world e.g. oxygen.

The Amazon rainforest does NOT produce 20 per cent of the world’s oxygen
From a 2014 New York Times article by Nadine Unger, Assistant Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry at Yale:
Moreover, it is a myth that photosynthesis controls the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Even if all photosynthesis on the planet were shut down, the atmosphere’s oxygen content would change by less than 1 percent. The Amazon rain forest is often perceived as the lungs of the planet. In fact, almost all the oxygen the Amazon produces during the day remains there and is reabsorbed by the forest at night. In other words, the Amazon rain forest is a closed system that uses all its own oxygen and carbon dioxide.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/ (https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/08/26/delingpole-amazon-fires-big-fat-nothingburger-fakenews-scare-story/)

Funnily enough, for some time now I have been reading about the earths oxygen.

A half comes from stuff in the sea like plankton.

The other half comes from plantlife.  Accepted that the Amazon basin is huge but if the 20% is right then the other 30% that comes from land based plantlife is from the rest of the earth. I would agree with you . It may well be 10% or less.

Good to so G6 coughing up 10 million each to help that awful Bolsinara in putting the fires out. Fire planes plus his alleged 45,000 troops should help. What plant and animal species are we losing through destroying Amazon rainforests?

Nothing to do with Bolsinara. Fires in the Amazon have been going on for ages, and 2019 is NOT a record year. Slash and burn is not good at all, but where were all those complaining prior to Bolsinara's election? Hmmm

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/23/amazon-fire-history-since-2003/ (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/08/23/amazon-fire-history-since-2003/)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 August 2019, 10:55:03
Ooh, a cynic...
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 27 August 2019, 12:42:29
Back on HS2,

It has been revealed the government knew it was over budget back in 2016.......
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 27 August 2019, 13:44:18
Back on HS2,

It has been revealed the government knew it was over budget back in 2016.......


Yes, what a surprise (NOT!) Varche ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D

When politicians want something to happen smoke and mirrors always comes to play so that what they (and me) consider a worthwhile project, good for the country, is not destroyed before the papers are signed.

Of course the costs of this engineering project have always been under-estimated from the start, just like every engineering project has been certainly since the 18th century (the building of the canals) in Britain / The World ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 27 August 2019, 18:06:14
Back on HS2,

It has been revealed the government knew it was over budget back in 2016.......
I knew it was over budget in 2011, at the first of the roadshows.  It was blatant for anyone to see that the numbers displayed were picked to make the sums work, and changed from board to board to make everything seem good.

The fact that MPs voted it through is a clear indication of how stupid/lazy/competent/corrupt they are. You can choose which.  Because if me - the stupid kid from the local comprehensive - can see it, surely our most educated can...
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 27 August 2019, 18:24:15
Back on HS2,

It has been revealed the government knew it was over budget back in 2016.......
I knew it was over budget in 2011, at the first of the roadshows.  It was blatant for anyone to see that the numbers displayed were picked to make the sums work, and changed from board to board to make everything seem good.

The fact that MPs voted it through is a clear indication of how stupid/lazy/competent/corrupt they are. You can choose which.  Because if me - the stupid kid from the local comprehensive - can see it, surely our most educated can...

One ex-HS2 manager, responsible for costing out the land and buildings that had to be purchased, this morning on TV showed a particular page of the original proposal documents that had the cost of acquiring a school, with all the land around it, as worth less than £800!! ::) ::) ;) 

Like the whole "estimate", a few noughts were missing!! :P
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 27 August 2019, 18:40:54
So do you finally agree it should be scrapped as unaffordable and basically useless? Good, now we can move on :)


Not that it will be, as the review is chaired by the moron responsible for it.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 27 August 2019, 18:46:19
Your starting to sound like Hitler.  :P ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 27 August 2019, 19:37:04
Your starting to sound like Hitler.  :P ;D

 ;D ;D ;D :y

And TB, no, I do not want the principle of a new high speed train network built in this country of ours scrapped.  What I do want is the costs to be realistic, and true commercial managerial controls to be established, with civil servants and thick politicians left out of the equation.

If possible, if not now far too late, I want any future lines to be linked up directly with HS1, thus saving the costs of special, non-standard rolling stock, being built from scratch (Eurostar seem to have the right trains), along with the efficient pathways to allow France to Birmingham trains to run through.  I would also want these lines to fully take very fast freight container trains to clear the motorways of unnecessary HGV's.

Too late?  Well, in business nothing should be too late when there are strong business arguments for the changes, a reduction of costs, and the potential to generate higher returns on the capital investment.  That is what "reviews" should be for! ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migalot on 27 August 2019, 20:01:24
So do you finally agree it should be scrapped as unaffordable and basically useless? Good, now we can move on :)


Not that it will be, as the review is chaired by the moron responsible for it.

Couldn't agree more. An absolute white elephant.

If the government is hell-bent on a costly infrastructure project, they should construct a national water grid. This could, for example, be used to distribute water evenly when the weather dictates, say from a wet North-West to dry East Anglian farmlands.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 27 August 2019, 21:26:05
So do you finally agree it should be scrapped as unaffordable and basically useless? Good, now we can move on :)


Not that it will be, as the review is chaired by the moron responsible for it.

Couldn't agree more. An absolute white elephant.

If the government is hell-bent on a costly infrastructure project, they should construct a national water grid. This could, for example, be used to distribute water evenly when the weather dictates, say from a wet North-West to dry East Anglian farmlands.

Now that is something I have thought for a long time, as in the South East we will never have enough water for the current population, let alone that envisaged to exist by 2050. 

I would however not stop with that, but also incorporate a hydro-electric scheme whereby turbines generate power as the water being transferred passes along the 'trunk' route pipes. This would resolve two pressing issues at once  8) ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migalot on 27 August 2019, 21:53:00
I would however not stop with that, but also incorporate a hydro-electric scheme whereby turbines generate power as the water being transferred passes along the 'trunk' route pipes. This would resolve two pressing issues at once  8) ;)

Not wishing to pour cold water on that (see what I did there?  ;) ), but I thought hydro-electicity is only powered by gravity (e.g. waterfalls or rivers). If the water is pumped across a grid, then the energy used to pump it would be absorbed by the hydro plants, thus nullifying any benefit.  ???
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 27 August 2019, 22:51:13
So do you finally agree it should be scrapped as unaffordable and basically useless? Good, now we can move on :)


Not that it will be, as the review is chaired by the moron responsible for it.

Couldn't agree more. An absolute white elephant.

If the government is hell-bent on a costly infrastructure project, they should construct a national water grid. This could, for example, be used to distribute water evenly when the weather dictates, say from a wet North-West to dry East Anglian farmlands.

Now that is something I have thought for a long time, as in the South East we will never have enough water for the current population, let alone that envisaged to exist by 2050. 

I would however not stop with that, but also incorporate a hydro-electric scheme whereby turbines generate power as the water being transferred passes along the 'trunk' route pipes. This would resolve two pressing issues at once  8) ;)

I have offered the solution to the South East water problem before.

Build a dam wall across the Wash ( using free prison labour). 

I have got to say it is ridiculous that Britain has a water problem.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 27 August 2019, 23:34:11
I would however not stop with that, but also incorporate a hydro-electric scheme whereby turbines generate power as the water being transferred passes along the 'trunk' route pipes. This would resolve two pressing issues at once  8) ;)

Not wishing to pour cold water on that (see what I did there?  ;) ), but I thought hydro-electicity is only powered by gravity (e.g. waterfalls or rivers). If the water is pumped across a grid, then the energy used to pump it would be absorbed by the hydro plants, thus nullifying any benefit.  ???
Everyone knows that hot air rises from Lundin and all the crap flows down from Oopnorf, so getting the rain water down here should be easy enough  :D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 09:32:44
I would however not stop with that, but also incorporate a hydro-electric scheme whereby turbines generate power as the water being transferred passes along the 'trunk' route pipes. This would resolve two pressing issues at once  8) ;)

Not wishing to pour cold water on that (see what I did there?  ;) ), but I thought hydro-electicity is only powered by gravity (e.g. waterfalls or rivers). If the water is pumped across a grid, then the energy used to pump it would be absorbed by the hydro plants, thus nullifying any benefit.  ???

Indeed it is, but with a new water trunk system, designed for the purpose across terrain of many gradients, there would be certain parts that would 'fall' and there is the place for giant turbines.

Of course natural physical law dictates you cannot get more energy out than you put in, and the pumps along the system, as with the local pipework, would require electrical power (much via solar panels/wind turbines?), which is unavoidable, but at strategically located sites, where the gradient falls, highly efficient turbines could be placed to generated significant power, some of which could also power the pumps.

To advance society must continue to think outside the box, as did the great engineers of the 18th and 19th centuries did when building the canal and railway network.

Of course all this blue sky thinking means spending money....big money..........and is one reason why no government has yet considered a National Water Grid of the style that the leccy boys use.  I reckon 500 billion pounds will do it.............well, as that figure has been guessed, via a wet finger in the air........once the project is started it will cost 800 billion pounds...................rising to £1 trillion once built six years after it's planned completion date!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)

Seriously though, the basic Water Grid idea is a sound one and will be ever more important as the climate DOES get hotter, no matter for what reason, our population grows considerably and people 's demand for the stuff for swimming pools, jacuzzi spa baths and growing our crops rises still further ;)
 
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 09:58:18
To advance society must continue to think outside the box, as did the great engineers of the 18th and 19th centuries did when building the canal and railway network.

Of course all this blue sky thinking means spending money....big money..........and is one reason why no government has yet considered a National Water Grid of the style that the leccy boys use.  I reckon 500 billion pounds will do it.............well, as that figure has been guessed, via a wet finger in the air........once the project is started it will cost 800 billion pounds...................rising to £1 trillion once built six years after it's planned completion date!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)





You're living in a fantasy world if you think any government is going to spend money on a grand scheme based on bluesky thinking(the real definition of which is that it's pretty but empty until it pisses down unexpectedly)to improve on something we already have. And there is no way whatsoever privatised industry is going to do it when they're not replacing(or even repairing properly) what they already have, instead of patching up and hoping they can move the business on to some other mug before the whole thing falls apart. That mug will be a government in the future, because the whole country will be up in arms that we let it fail and have no power/sewage/drinking water. And those things are very closely related, so the failures will quickly cascade through the whole infrastructure including transport.


HS2 is a case in point: if a business could build and run it at a profit, it would be progressing by leaps and bounds. Instead, it's a government project that everybody knows is a massive clusteropps, so anybody involved is passing the parcel as soon as they can without actually doing anything there could be blame for.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 10:42:35
To advance society must continue to think outside the box, as did the great engineers of the 18th and 19th centuries did when building the canal and railway network.

Of course all this blue sky thinking means spending money....big money..........and is one reason why no government has yet considered a National Water Grid of the style that the leccy boys use.  I reckon 500 billion pounds will do it.............well, as that figure has been guessed, via a wet finger in the air........once the project is started it will cost 800 billion pounds...................rising to £1 trillion once built six years after it's planned completion date!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)





You're living in a fantasy world if you think any government is going to spend money on a grand scheme based on bluesky thinking(the real definition of which is that it's pretty but empty until it pisses down unexpectedly)to improve on something we already have. And there is no way whatsoever privatised industry is going to do it when they're not replacing(or even repairing properly) what they already have, instead of patching up and hoping they can move the business on to some other mug before the whole thing falls apart. That mug will be a government in the future, because the whole country will be up in arms that we let it fail and have no power/sewage/drinking water. And those things are very closely related, so the failures will quickly cascade through the whole infrastructure including transport.


HS2 is a case in point: if a business could build and run it at a profit, it would be progressing by leaps and bounds. Instead, it's a government project that everybody knows is a massive clusteropps, so anybody involved is passing the parcel as soon as they can without actually doing anything there could be blame for.


I was hinting that strongly ::) ;D ;D ;D ;)

Instead here in the South East the water company will build the planned new reservoir near Canterbury taking up more highly valuable land ::) ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 11:43:42
I would state that although some projects, like HS2, are daunting and very controversial, if we, the British, are going to really  put "Great" in front of Britain, we MUST change our national attitudes.

I touched on the engineers of the 18th and 19th century.  They had one thing in common; "they could do that, they could do this, they did do that, they did this"  No matter what the challenges, financial or practical, the negativity around them, with so many saying "that is impossible!", "that cannot be done!", "life will cease if you do that!", etc, etc.  They DID it! 8) 8)

All I hear today is excuses as to why things "can't be done", "shouldn't be done", "it will destroy/upset/disturb everyone!", "it is too costly".  Pure negativity!!

If we are going to be GREAT again, with or without BREXIT, we MUST start "doing" again; striving forward, taking risks, doing what is going to propel our nation forward, away from the EU, controlling, 'scarred of their shadow', politicians or any other controlling forces.

Then together we WILL achieve and be Great again. ;)

Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 August 2019, 12:47:11
I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 13:02:16
I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)


Which is the bit Lizzie missed out, like the Victorian attempt at a channel tunnel and other experimental stuff that never worked. Making up stuff as you go along is not a feasible approach for large public projects. Unless there's a war on......
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 28 August 2019, 13:02:46
I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)

Spot on.

They have got to deliver value for money and be of use.

The Victorians did have spectacular failures. Things like the white elephant Caldonian canal. Great idea at the time but turned out to be a white elephant.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 14:17:08
I agree re the less whining and more doing ;)

However doing ill-conceived shit for the mere sake of doing is a hiding to nothing.

Far better instead to do clearly defined things of purpose  ;)


Which is the bit Lizzie missed out, like the Victorian attempt at a channel tunnel and other experimental stuff that never worked. Making up stuff as you go along is not a feasible approach for large public projects. Unless there's a war on......

But that is how the canals and railways were built, the London Underground, the London water and sewerage system that spread to other cities after the "experiment" was found to be successful.  The chunnel was achieved eventually once the technology was created, and the will found, to complete what the Victorians envisaged - like they envisaged big, steel hulled ships ("that will NEVER float!") but now travel the World..  Yes, of course there were failures, sometimes very big ones , like the SS Great Eastern (way ahead of it's time) and the Tay Bridge failure, but those led to what we see today.  The old adages of "What you do not try you will never know"; "Nothing ventured nothing gained" and "You learn by trial and error" come to mind.

That is was I meant, so many today want to seek reasons why not to try something and take a risk. And our generation moan about the young "snowflakes" - I think I know why they are like it!! ::) ::) ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 14:29:01
Those were all done with private money(to make the profit you know about) and didn't matter when they failed. Success in such ventures was rare then, and is rare now because they still happen. The difference is that there are more of us(nearly six times as many as 200 years ago) with higher expectations and requirements. There are very good reasons why we no longer allow landowners to carve transport across their land, or build factories wherever they want.


Trying to force an outdated, inefficient, outrageously expensive 'technology' like HS2 to solve a problem that doesn't exist is not 'taking a risk'. At best it is backward looking, and at worst inept, ignorant and incompetent.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 August 2019, 14:30:59
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it?

Brunel didn't simply turn up one day with a couple blokes and a spade ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 14:52:25
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doth not first sit down and count the cost, whether he have wherewith to complete it?

Brunel didn't simply turn up one day with a couple blokes and a spade ;D


No, he had a plan based on education, training and experience which enabled him to raise some of the money. There were always money issues with the GWR for instance, as the suits wanted their money back quicker than the plan was going to provide. Which they knew because other railways were doing it.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 28 August 2019, 18:23:07
What I do want is the costs to be realistic, and true commercial managerial controls to be established, with civil servants and thick politicians left out of the equation.
Regularly check your backside. Because that ain't gonna happen whilst you have a hole there ;)

It will *NEVER* be cost effective enough for a private enterprise to take it on. Remember, even with the initial massaged figures, and full trains 24x7 every 3 minutes, it still could only cover 40% of its running costs, let alone build costs, according to Network Rail (before part was spun off to HS2 Ltd)

So if we want it - and I don't think anyone does, because it goes from nowhere to nowhere in Phase 1 - we have to let the civil service do it, and add at least another 0 to the latest build figure. And aim for 25% max of its current income from fares. Which will mean a 90% taxpayer subsidy for every fare.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 28 August 2019, 18:27:14
I would state that although some projects, like HS2, are daunting and very controversial, if we, the British, are going to really  put "Great" in front of Britain, we MUST change our national attitudes.

I touched on the engineers of the 18th and 19th century.  They had one thing in common; "they could do that, they could do this, they did do that, they did this"  No matter what the challenges, financial or practical, the negativity around them, with so many saying "that is impossible!", "that cannot be done!", "life will cease if you do that!", etc, etc.  They DID it! 8) 8)

All I hear today is excuses as to why things "can't be done", "shouldn't be done", "it will destroy/upset/disturb everyone!", "it is too costly".  Pure negativity!!

If we are going to be GREAT again, with or without BREXIT, we MUST start "doing" again; striving forward, taking risks, doing what is going to propel our nation forward, away from the EU, controlling, 'scarred of their shadow', politicians or any other controlling forces.

Then together we WILL achieve and be Great again. ;)
According to a programme the other day, might have been Tarrant or Portillo or someone else ;D, the UK rail industry has never, ever, ever made a profit. Its always been net loss.

Beeching was too liberal, as there is only so long you can flog a dead horse, and we need to give up after 200yrs of misery.  He should have closed *ALL* unprofitable services, not just the worse.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 18:28:13
Those were all done with private money(to make the profit you know about) and didn't matter when they failed. Success in such ventures was rare then, and is rare now because they still happen. The difference is that there are more of us(nearly six times as many as 200 years ago) with higher expectations and requirements. There are very good reasons why we no longer allow landowners to carve transport across their land, or build factories wherever they want.


Trying to force an outdated, inefficient, outrageously expensive 'technology' like HS2 to solve a problem that doesn't exist is not 'taking a risk'. At best it is backward looking, and at worst inept, ignorant and incompetent.

Yes, most were as the Government of the day had no thought or conception of "Nationalisation".  With just one exception I will refer to, the 1858 Government contract for the building of a sewer system for London, the majority of the rest were built due to private enterprise, a desire to build a better future, along with, yes, the life long temptation a man, corruption, like George Hudson and his railway 'empire'.

But in the end the canal building, then the likes of the Manchester to Liverpool Railway, along with all the other major lines built, pushed the country's economy from one based on agriculture to a booming, World beating, industrial society, creating thousands of jobs (yes, there WAS a downside to that from a social point of view).  The gas and electric industry grew across the country by way of private investment and the usual potential of the essential "Profit".  But all this, and so much more, developed due to government allowing and encouraging private enterprise to build the country's infrastructure fit for the next century.  A highly successful approach, with of course some failures being propped up by public funds., but overall Britain profiting from it all.

That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.  That way 'budget' and 'completion' over-runs will be their sand the investor problem, not the British taxpayer.  Efficiency and commercial common sense will then prevail, unlike with the financially controversial HS2/3/4. I am a Conservative who believes in private commercial power, but somehow Conservative Governments have got themselves bogged down in a "Nationalised" civil project. Not good!! :o :o

Just imagine what Labour will do, if they were ever to get into power anytime soon, as normally Nationalisation is their field of interest?! ::) ::) :P :P ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 28 August 2019, 18:36:20
That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.
But what private enterprise is going to spend £100s of billions building it, then run it at a massive loss?

Come on, you reckon you're a business whizz, explain it ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 28 August 2019, 18:45:37
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 August 2019, 18:46:09
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
Chinese investment  ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 28 August 2019, 19:03:14
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 19:11:28
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


supposedly privatised utilities which still suck up a lot of public money that goes abroad - a monumentally stupid thing to have done. A tribal governmental system that changes direction every few years and is fundamentally opposed to the compromises that lomg term planning requires. Loads of reasons.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 19:14:54
That is what should be the case now; let private enterprise take on infrastructure projects, seeking out potential benefits, as they do every day in the industrial and civil world in the UK, taking the risks, but enjoying the profits.
But what private enterprise is going to spend £100s of billions building it, then run it at a massive loss?

Come on, you reckon you're a business whizz, explain it ;)

Because, as in the case of the Big Four Railway Companies 1923-48, you have to judge any "Profits" taking into account the overall benefits to the UK economy, not with a short sighted, negative, approach.  The value of the GWR, LMS, LNER, and Southern to the British economy was enormous, and could not be easily assessed as a set of figures.  Movements of massive amounts of coal and steel by the LNER to factories producing goods, and GWR shifted milk and fish, along with passengers, that kept the West Country Holiday industry busy, and all benefited the overall economy, must be taken into account. The Southern moved huge volumes of workers to and from London, all contributing to the British economy.  The LMS, along with the LNER, also moved large quantities of minerals, but also both allowed the North to South and back transit of thousands of passengers.

The former 123 railway companies before 1923 shifted huge quantities of war materials and troops during he 1914-18 conflict, then again the Big Four repeated that exercise, but to an even greater degree, during 1939-45.  But, very crucially after each of those conflicts the British Government of the day did not come close to the true costs of those movements and transits, let alone the wear and tear to locomotives, rolling stock, lines and the infrastructure generally. It left all the companies after those events reeling and loss making as they tied desperately to refurbish, repair and replace.  That is one reason why the Grouping of 1st January 1923 happened, and Nationalisation on 1st January 1948, with then the railways virtually bankrupt after sustaining all the costs of war. THe PROFIT to the country in both cases of being able to use the railways in war work was incalculable, but never appreciated!!

The LNER also had suffered more than most from the depression of the 1930's with their very considerable coal and steel traffic decimated and profits wiped out.

So, you cannot judge them purely on their profit generation, without taking the wider benefits, or not, into account.  That is what some are doing with HS2; the profit that company may make, or not, from their operations cannot be assessed alone.  The wider benefits, and PROFITS, of northern companies, industries, and the eased movement of people must be part of the business case to give a qualified opinion of the worth, or not, of building the line.  Just think where Britain would be now without the canals, then railways; a backward, third rate power with no global recognition, and probably with ll of us speaking German! :o :o

 ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 19:43:22
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o

So the 1.8 billion who travel  the railways yearly, up 3% on last year, 600,000 who travel daily on the Southern railways, up 3.9%, along with freight traffic does not matter then?!!

Like you rudely suggested I check my backside, I reckon you should lift your head up from an IT screen and recognise was is actually happening now, not in virtual form! ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 28 August 2019, 19:49:37
..........and check these facts out..................

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/freight-rail-usage/

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/passenger-rail-usage/

 ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 August 2019, 19:51:32
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.


How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o

So the 1.8 billion who travel  the railways yearly, up 3% on last year, 600,000 who travel daily on the Southern railways, up 3.9%, along with freight traffic does not matter then?!!

Like you rudely suggested I check my backside, I reckon you should lift your head up from an IT screen and recognise was is actually happening now, not in virtual form! ::) ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 28 August 2019, 21:31:14
Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.


The railway is not helped by the stupid way it was privatised; breaking it back into small regional companies, with the track maintenance being another was a hugely backward step.


Trains into London are slow, nasty and expensive. But driving into town is MUCH worse, which is how Southern Rail gets away with their atrocious service.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: ronnyd on 28 August 2019, 22:42:44
On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 28 August 2019, 23:32:53
On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
Keeping the entire network protected both physically and chemically would be almost impossible.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 29 August 2019, 08:50:35
On the subject of a national water grid, i,m sure i read once that it was not feasible to pump water over long distances, due to the quality of the water degrading. I have no proof of this,  so just wondering if anyone else on here has heard of this?  :-\
Keeping the entire network protected both physically and chemically would be almost impossible.


It is now. Southern Water encourage visitors to the main water supply for Kent and Sussex.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 29 August 2019, 11:49:17
Most of Southerns passengers are commuters, of whom, the bulk would use any other means of getting to Lundun if one were reasonably available  :-X

The company makes a profit by failing to operate the services to which it is contracted... Combining Southern, Thames link and Gatwick Express schedules only masks the deficiencies and does nothing to improve either the services or their value.


The railway is not helped by the stupid way it was privatised; breaking it back into small regional companies, with the track maintenance being another was a hugely backward step.


Trains into London are slow, nasty and expensive. But driving into town is MUCH worse, which is how Southern Rail gets away with their atrocious service.

All points absolutely correct Nick! :y :y :y :y

And the "track maintenance" is under Network Rail, the still nationalised section of the industry.  Crazy! ::) ::) >:(

Why did the railways not go back to a form as in the days of the Big Four, where everything that happened in their 'region' of the railway business was completely down to them and their shareholders?  When things went wrong they could not blame another company; their track teams were theirs, no one else's.  That meant personal and corporate full responsibility.  It also meant that each company was a competitor in giving the public the best possible service, otherwise their profits would be severely hit. 

That was particularly true of those companies competing to transit passengers, and freight, to the North; the LMS, LNER, and to a lesser extent, with traffic from the South West into the Midlands, the GWR. The former two fought a battle of speed in the 1930's, each trying to outshine the other with ever faster, streamlined, high profile trains, with even the LNER managing to win the record of the fastest steam railway engine ever, Mallard travelling at 126 mph in 1938, although it did wreck the bearings and motion of that engine in the process! But that is how it was so important in PR terms, and to show the public "come to us, we are the best company to get you from South to North".

Of course their had been the famous Races To The North in the 1880's, and in particular The Race in 1885, between the then GNR and NER,    incorporated into the LNER in 1923.

That is what happens when there is true healthy competition between private companies vying for the public's business. Not the mess we now have of no real competition, a mix of private and public companies, with the Government, us, picking up the bill when it all goes wrong. You cannot mix a cake with those ingredients and hope to achieve the right result. >:( >:(

It must be one or the other ingredient; Privatisation or Nationalisation ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 29 August 2019, 13:02:30
Both are a disaster without proper checks and controls.

Nationalisation is a blank cheque book.  Privatisation just a way to increase the gap between the haves and have nots. 
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 29 August 2019, 19:22:55
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.


And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 29 August 2019, 19:44:00
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.

As for Swindon.......you obviously don't understand that Swindon is no longer a town full of railway workers as in the wonderful days of the GWR.  Ask any retired workers who worked in the vast complex who they blame for all it's demise. They will say "the bloody government" who allowed the building of the engines and rolling stock to be taken over by just a few railway centres, then surrender that to foreign countries! ;)



And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.



No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 29 August 2019, 20:10:57
Anyone know how they go about it in the rest of the world ?  :-\
We have a number of unique issues - land costs, overpopulation, and a rail industry that solely exists for the benefit of those that work in it.
How narrow minded and limited in comprehension! :o :o :o
Again, you utterly misunderstand the industry.  Take a trip to any railway town, such as Swindon, visit a pub, and chat to anyone who works on the railway.


Narrow Minded?  Nah, just not gullible.  The gullible are those who think HS2 are a good idea.

As for Swindon.......you obviously don't understand that Swindon is no longer a town full of railway workers as in the wonderful days of the GWR.  Ask any retired workers who worked in the vast complex who they blame for all it's demise. They will say "the bloody government" who allowed the building of the engines and rolling stock to be taken over by just a few railway centres, then surrender that to foreign countries! ;)



And as for your other argument that the "profits" of the industry, I take that as a complete admission that you concur that this daft Victorian tech has never pulled a profit.



No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)

........and that last sentence also applies to the politicians and their lack of understanding of the railways over now decades, after they drove out the real, professional, in the blood after generations, of railway men. They used to care by giving their all to the railways, it was their life. Now the politicians who, like you TB, care not a damn about the railways pretend to know how to run them via 'managers' who come fresh faced from uni, or Unilever, etc,etc, and got it all wrong.

That is the real problem!  Meddling politicians, civil servants, and cardboard 'managers' , with so many who work on the railway treating it all as "just a job" >:(
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 29 August 2019, 21:18:33
Look inside any economics text book and the first paragraph will say something along the lines of: "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money because if you don't you spend on bad value frivolity compared to other nations then relatively you will get poorer. Most goods we buy are priced internationally as why would I want to sell it cheaper in market A will I can get a better price in market B. What is priced locally is seasonal local food, property, labour rates, taxes & other local costs. How well a country is doing & what they can relatively afford I call the McDonalds test & relively pricing between countries is interesting. In the late 1980's UK & US prices were similar, where as, these days where US growth rates have been consistently higher, today they cost about 20% more in the US.

In some countries the wealth difference is stark like North & South Korea & Venezuela with its massive oil reserves & Switzerland with has none. Our growth since 2008-2018 has been sluggish at 11% until you look at out near neighbours in the Eurozone where they have jointly only managed -2% so overall their economies are still smaller than in 2008! US growth has been 18% and China 235%.

So if you want a poor country then run your infrastructure on intangibles like Lizzie Zoom suggests, like it seems such a romantic Victorian thing to do, where as, if you want a rich country invest in projects so you get a return on investment (ROI) in a maximum of 20 to 50 years. By doing the former instead of the latter each bad investment makes your country poorer or vice versa to make it slightly richer. :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 29 August 2019, 23:42:55
Look inside any economics text book and the first paragraph will say something along the lines of:
 "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money because ........

So if you want a poor country then run your infrastructure on intangibles like Lizzie Zoom suggests, like it seems such a romantic Victorian thing to do, where as, if you want a rich country invest in projects so you get a return on investment (ROI) in a maximum of 20 to 50 years. By doing the former instead of the latter each bad investment makes your country poorer or vice versa to make it slightly richer. :y

"Romantic Victorian thing to do"!!!!!   There is nothing romantic (like TB you are hooked on the "Victorian" label! ::) ::)) in running railways.  They should be, with the correct railway management (please read my post on that point) a very effective and efficient method of moving mass numbers of people, 1.8 million journeys (in 2018) and 75.4 million tonnes of tons (2018-19) of freight around the land, with profits enjoyed by the particular railway company. They are a business tool used by the nation for it's business, not a nice picture of flowers in a field!! How condescending! >:( >:(

Without the railways, current, and new, the roads are further choked, but for someone thinking the alternative, the true costs of short haul flying, taking into account the environment, make that form of travel, if it was suitable for the 1.8 billion journeys, to be out of the question, and if it was it would mean the large expansion of airports is required, beyond those already proposed along with the protests. Rising oil prices, along with shortages/threat to supplies, is another consideration to be factored in. Then you have that 74 million tonnes of freight - where is that going to go, and how much fuel is going to be burnt as all the thousands of extra lorry loads sit in huge queues?

 So Rod, what do you suggest to keep the UK economy motoring along? If you were in power, instead of constantly critising those actually trying to make a difference, what would you do if in power to make travel of our increasing population not only possible, but completely free flowing at the speeds we all want? Practical suggestions only please, not the political waffle!

If you want to realise your prediction of a poor, third World (!!! ::) ::)) country then scrap the railways. Choke up even more the roads, then build thousands of miles of more motorways at unbelievable costs, destroying far more countryside and property, and greatly lengthening travelling times. That will knock on to thousands who will no longer be able to easily travel into London, Manchester, Bristol, etc, losing their jobs, with the businesses that relied on the manpower going under or moving abroad.

You put great play on:
 "We live in a world of scarcity". This means we have finite amounts of everything including money, which is why it is so important for a nation's wealth that we do things well while providing good value for money.....

yes, exactly, so we should create the answers to move ever greater numbers of people and freight around without using even more of what we have not got.

Run "infrastructure on intangibles"- what ever does that mean?  I am not suggesting everything is done without good accounting practice!  If you were to just take a little time to fully read my posts, instead of leaping to the keyboard and creating sound bites like that, you will note my severe criticism of the lack of seemingly (we await the conclusion of the review with great interest) business practice, judgement and management. Full, realistic, budgeting and thereafter monitoring and control, with the necessary adjustments, is essential for any business project, such as HS2.  Where do you get the idea I do not believe that?

Because you are, like some others, so obsessed and blinkered about this "Victorian" project that you believe cannot make a profit, that you fail to see the much wider picture of the opportunities and profits that HS2/3/4 will give to many communities across the whole nation (once again, a point I covered in an earlier post!). You are accusing me of not taking into account the cost vs. profit?  Well forget that one as my business life deemed I had to make that natural practice for me.  But in business, and particularly with railways which are long term investments, you MUST calculate the long term benefits, that may well incur tremendous costs like the High Speed lines, but will give, when taking the overall "profits" for the wider communities, the ROC that makes it all worthwhile, but it is the next generations that will gain from this one.

It may have escaped you, and others, that billion of pounds are being spent to completely upgrade the "Victorian" (as is loosely applied) railway system to increase capacity and efficiency. What the HS lines, like the HS1 line in Kent, will be the true 21st century version. Apart from the principle of wheels running on rails, which actually is not Victorian but dates from around 2,245 BC, the rest of the entity is very much the latest technology.

Oh, and what does China, that you correctly mention is displaying great growth, although currently in a dip, make of the "Victorian" railways?  They, as at December 2018, now have 18,000 miles (all the UK track mileage totals is 20,000) of High Speed lines, or 66% of the entire world's high speed network.  Most of the lines run at a profit, although it cost far less than ours to build due to the openness of the vast country.

Victorian indeed!! ::) ::) :D :D

Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 August 2019, 00:59:22
People only use trains in the UK because they lack a viable alternative, much like the way people use buses in the States. HS2 is akin to A Field of Dreams... Without the happy ending ;D

China has 18,000 miles of train lines because it is one of the largest countries on the planet, ::) besides, forced growth is not sustainable, which is why China is having a dip.

Incidentally a good watch for an insight into the Chinese way of doing things is American Factory, currently on Netflix. ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 30 August 2019, 02:28:44
If you want to invest in a relevant transport technology then invest in an ultra high speeds fibre-to-premises as that is our transport future. I work from home my neighbour opposite me is a certified Microsoft support person, who works for a London based company where is is physically there only once or twice a week which is why Boris is pushing this as he did when he was London mayor along with his IT incubators hub which are receiving record oversea investment where the UK attracts much more of this than any other European countries. Computer software, CGI & other related technologies will employ much more people working from home and is going to be an increasingly large percentage of the UK economy. I've been fortunate in picking the right industry st the right time as a digital hardware designer & computer programmer starting my career as the first generation of 8 bit microprocessors were introduced and earn a good live & often an exceptionally good challenging successful one earning multiple average salaries most of the time. I quickly learn't that the future is softare over hardware in terms of capital investment, running costs & profits, which is why I dropped the hardware design.

I do my local grocery shopping at out of town supermarkets & have had no need to visit any local town centre shopping centre for almost 4 years where they are expensive have limited choice compared to online retail. This is why high streets are dying. Although I visit clients normally by train in London many of my meetings these days involve informal & formal phone and video conferencing from my study office. This makes very efficient use of my time, with my long twice daily commute being from my large lounge, across my hall into to my large study office where I have two desks & chairs, so family and visitors can work there as well.

This is the future, is here for many now, including a massive army of gig economy self-employed programmers & artists who get their work through global websites like freelancer.com. I don't want or need an expensive, inefficient commute, clogging up roads & railways and this is the future for many, not only in IT but also other service industries like financial services, insurance etc. A person I do a lot of work for, where I do all his IT, runs a multi-million pound insurance brokerage from home, employing several people remotely who also work from home using a distributed wide-area VOIP phone network. This is the future for many & it is here now. He used to have an office where several people worked but finds it much more efficient to give this up & he is now earning as a result multiples of £100kpa as a result. I've also happy as I'm looked after well as well as his most key contractor.

The future is here now and people linked in the romanticism of the Victorian era are welcome to it as they live their retired life on a combination of victorian romanticism, old high street shopping methods and as Disraeli told us regrets, but this is irrelevant to more & more of the UK workforce.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 30 August 2019, 06:32:27
Lizzie and Rods, have you ever thought, regarding transport, that, with the current population growth, there just may not be an answer. At all. Actual physical space is another finite thing and, without colonising the space we need to grow our food and keep our animals, we'll run out of that at some point.
So, we either live on synthetic food, or we evolve a system where people do not need to travel to work. Rods' idea about a superfast broadband system is great for desk jobs, but we also need to cater for people who do not work in that sector. It ain't easy, that's for sure.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Varche on 30 August 2019, 08:39:17
There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 30 August 2019, 11:24:25
More flights from regional airports perhaps :-\ It used to be possible to fly to most cities in the UK two or three times a day :-\

Modern aircraft are far more efficient than they used to be and it cannot be that far from 100 seater hybrid/all electric puddle jumpers...
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 30 August 2019, 13:54:07
There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .

In demand high skill & knowledge creative industries jobs are well paid along with the traditional professional jobs like doctors, teachers, lawyers & accountants. One to many manufacturing used to be reasonably well paid together with skilled crafts people and alike, but their relative pay has dropped relative to the top tier. Semi skilled & unskilled are generally minimum wage, minimum benefits jobs often on zero hour contracts & this is unlikely to change anytime soon due to productivity growth through automation and the influx of large numbers of unskilled workers. A side effect of Brexit will be mass unskilled youth unemployment in the EU no longer being able to work in the UK where the points based immigration system favoured by Boris will be, IMV quite rightly, in only attracting highly skilled people to fill well paid vacancies. The semi-skilled & unskilled have been falling behind on pay in the Western world since the early 1980s when the IBM PC was introduced and this is the slow & subtle effect computer automation & productivity has had in the jobs market.

It is still too early to tell how big the impact will be with AI & how quickly this will change the jobs market dynamics. Looking how farming has changed over the past 50 years from using large numbers of farm labourers to just having a few skilled advanced machine operators shows how in this & many other sectors how low skilled jobs have been lost & more advanced harvesting machines will continue to reduce further those required for crop picking.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 14:17:46
People only use trains in the UK because they lack a viable alternative, much like the way people use buses in the States. HS2 is akin to A Field of Dreams... Without the happy ending ;D

China has 18,000 miles of train lines because it is one of the largest countries on the planet, ::) besides, forced growth is not sustainable, which is why China is having a dip.

Incidentally a good watch for an insight into the Chinese way of doing things is American Factory, currently on Netflix. ;)

Yes, and that is why we must improve this fantastic method of mass movement of people and freight.  As the population grows, and the climate changes, the need for fast, efficient, affordable, pleasant to use, railways will become ever more important. There will increasingly be "no alternative" for many more people, unless someone invents a working teletransporter. ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 August 2019, 14:18:00
There is an element of deja vu in all this.

Anyone remember in the 70’s us all being told “ we will all have more time in the future as computers do more of our work. You will only be doing a four or maybe three day week”

Now apparently robots will be doing our jobs.

So we will have a two tier society. Tier one working at home on super fast broadband  . tier 2 delivering food and products .

There will still be a grey area. People who cant be trusted to work from home , Jobs that can’t be done by robots. Those people will still have to travel around.

I think STEMO is right. Maybe there isnt a solution .

I've mentioned it before.......we need an advanced teleportation system. :y

Some nerdy boffin will crack it one day.... ::) :)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 30 August 2019, 14:27:38

Yes, and that is why we must improve this fantastic method of mass movement of people and freight.  As the population grows, and the climate changes, the need for fast, efficient, affordable, pleasant to use, railways will become ever more important. There will increasingly be "no alternative" for many more people, unless someone invents a working teletransporter. ;D ;)


It's not a fantastic method, but one that within some very big limitations still has some value.


It's not well suited to modern logistics, as using it massively increases the amount of handling required and that's the expensive and inefficient part of moving stuff.


It is suited to instances when the load can get on and off by itself, so that's passengers.


Due to the nature of tracks, trains are only really useful when lots of people want to go from one place to another. Which is the definition of commuters.


Britain's cities aren't far apart enough  for there to be a practical or economic case for high speed trains.


Railways are ridiculously expensive to build, maintain and run, which is made worse by their limited use. This means that they are expensive to use unless heavily subsidised.And that is a stupid thing to do, as that money just disappears into a black hole.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 14:29:30
If you want to invest in a relevant transport technology then invest in an ultra high speeds fibre-to-premises as that is our transport future. I work from home my neighbour opposite me is a certified Microsoft support person, who works for a London based company where is is physically there only once or twice a week which is why Boris is pushing this as he did when he was London mayor along with his IT incubators hub which are receiving record oversea investment where the UK attracts much more of this than any other European countries. Computer software, CGI & other related technologies will employ much more people working from home and is going to be an increasingly large percentage of the UK economy. I've been fortunate in picking the right industry st the right time as a digital hardware designer & computer programmer starting my career as the first generation of 8 bit microprocessors were introduced and earn a good live & often an exceptionally good challenging successful one earning multiple average salaries most of the time. I quickly learn't that the future is softare over hardware in terms of capital investment, running costs & profits, which is why I dropped the hardware design.

I do my local grocery shopping at out of town supermarkets & have had no need to visit any local town centre shopping centre for almost 4 years where they are expensive have limited choice compared to online retail. This is why high streets are dying. Although I visit clients normally by train in London many of my meetings these days involve informal & formal phone and video conferencing from my study office. This makes very efficient use of my time, with my long twice daily commute being from my large lounge, across my hall into to my large study office where I have two desks & chairs, so family and visitors can work there as well.

This is the future, is here for many now, including a massive army of gig economy self-employed programmers & artists who get their work through global websites like freelancer.com. I don't want or need an expensive, inefficient commute, clogging up roads & railways and this is the future for many, not only in IT but also other service industries like financial services, insurance etc. A person I do a lot of work for, where I do all his IT, runs a multi-million pound insurance brokerage from home, employing several people remotely who also work from home using a distributed wide-area VOIP phone network. This is the future for many & it is here now. He used to have an office where several people worked but finds it much more efficient to give this up & he is now earning as a result multiples of £100kpa as a result. I've also happy as I'm looked after well as well as his most key contractor.

The future is here now and people linked in the romanticism of the Victorian era are welcome to it as they live their retired life on a combination of victorian romanticism, old high street shopping methods and as Disraeli told us regrets, but this is irrelevant to more & more of the UK workforce.

How many more times..................!! ::) ::)  The railways are not a "Victorian" romantic 'thing', it is a reality for the many members of the younger generation, not like you or me, of the retired generation, who find it a necessity to travel by public transport to be actually productive in offices, warehouses, and factories, let alone to visit relatives who are nowadays often flung far and wide.  They cannot afford a motor car- a "Victorian" concept by the way!! -  or to run it on ever congested roads.  Not everyone can possibly work from home in IT "service" industries if this country is to rise again and actually produce things - or is that your idea of a "yesterday year" concept - no wonder you worry about us becoming a "third World country"!!  ::) ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 30 August 2019, 14:46:25
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 14:54:21
Lizzie and Rods, have you ever thought, regarding transport, that, with the current population growth, there just may not be an answer. At all. Actual physical space is another finite thing and, without colonising the space we need to grow our food and keep our animals, we'll run out of that at some point.
So, we either live on synthetic food, or we evolve a system where people do not need to travel to work. Rods' idea about a superfast broadband system is great for desk jobs, but we also need to cater for people who do not work in that sector. It ain't easy, that's for sure.


Oh yes Steve, I do all the time, and note all the dire warnings about what could happen! :y :y

But, we live in the now, and for the sake of the younger - working!! - generations now and to come we MUST not rule out anything or everything. 2050, when the combustion engine car - an actual "Victorian" concept - is consigned to the final scrap yards, or the museum, and the roads for them are not being built in the same way as the electric, self driving, car will be used in a very different way: for short distances, with long distance travel via public very high speed trains. 

You see I am not the one looking backwards to a so called "romantic Victorian" age, but forward to a space efficient, environmentally friendly, suitable for the non-fossil fuel, socially acceptable situation that belongs to the 2050's and beyond.  For me, it is those who are clinging on for dear life to the personal, fossil fuel, highly expensive in all respects, land grabbing, anti-social, "Victorian" concept.

As for the last highlighted comment. again very true Steve, and that IS what I am driving (excuse the pun) at.  TB, Rod, and others in the so called IT age are ignoring the fact not everyone can possibly work in that field even if they wanted to.  It is a field (destined to the scrap heap for the individual by 2060 (my prediction!) that has so many issues, with hacking, breakdown of hardware, corrupt software, lack of power, and, in many cases, a very unhealthy lifestyle for the mental and physical health of the individual.  Once an IT system breaks down, due to internal or external reasons, like lack of electricity, it is completely useless.  A railway system which is physical track and infrastructure, can still be used, even if it means special measures!

Apart from that, as per my last post, GREAT BRITAIN MUST still be able to manufacture 'things', and far more than we have dipped to now!  Otherwise we are open to hostile aggression, financial and political blackmail, along with mass unemployment as ALL work goes to other countries, and especially the IT element, and Rod fulfils his prophecy of GB becoming a "third World country"!! ::) ::) ;)

We all will then not have to worry about going back in time to a "romantic Victorian era", but we will be back to, at best, Tudor living, or even a new prehistoric age!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 14:55:15
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 30 August 2019, 14:58:54
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
post the list and i'll get it all sorted  :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 15:15:18
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
post the list and i'll get it all sorted  :y

Well Dave, add to the list the Justice system.

We have thousands of fit, young men, and women, in prison being unproductive, and costing us taxpayers a fortune.  Instead, but only with those medically fit- they can breath and walk - give them shovels and get them working on the new High Speed lines to reduce the ridiculous  current costs, and give those unfortunates a chance to learn life long skills, like a trade.If they re-offend they go back to even longer hours building the new infrastructure. But those who work hard and apply themselves, release them, as they may have learnt their lesson.  If not, they know they will be back on the construction site to build the future!

Now in NO way am I possibly suggesting labour camps................. ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;) 

PS  Oh dear, what discussion have I now started..............!!! :o :o :o ;)  No, I am NOT like a bloody Hitler!! ::) ::) :o :o ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 30 August 2019, 17:10:15
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
post the list and i'll get it all sorted  :y

Well Dave, add to the list the Justice system.



Now in NO way am I possibly suggesting labour camps................. ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;) 



see "gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers) "
Labour camps could work for minor offences if you want to be a namby pamby liberal about breaking the law  ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 30 August 2019, 17:39:26
ok , combine Lizzie's national water movement grid and trains to make high speed water trains that float rather than rails with power stations en route for power distribution . gallows at each station (to deal with law breakers)
anything else need solving  :-\  ;D

Oh, we have only just started Dave! :o :o ;D ;D ;)
post the list and i'll get it all sorted  :y

Well Dave, add to the list the Justice system.

We have thousands of fit, young men, and women, in prison being unproductive, and costing us taxpayers a fortune.  Instead, but only with those medically fit- they can breath and walk - give them shovels and get them working on the new High Speed lines to reduce the ridiculous  current costs, and give those unfortunates a chance to learn life long skills, like a trade.If they re-offend they go back to even longer hours building the new infrastructure. But those who work hard and apply themselves, release them, as they may have learnt their lesson.  If not, they know they will be back on the construction site to build the future!

Now in NO way am I possibly suggesting labour camps................. ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;) 

PS  Oh dear, what discussion have I now started..............!!! :o :o :o ;)  No, I am NOT like a bloody Hitler!! ::) ::) :o :o ;D ;D ;)

Chain gangs, Lizzie......... like Paul Newman in cool Hand Luke.

This 'workforce' would certainly undercut other contractors.......who I doubt would be best pleased. ;) :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 30 August 2019, 17:58:44
No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)
True. Pre Victorian is what I should have said.

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)
Get your arse there, you'll see.  And listen to the workers and bosses, rather than the PR 'dangle berries' you seem to fall for all the time. And you too will grasp that the railways aren't run for the passengers.

I think I understand the railway industry pretty well, having friends and colleagues who either work/worked on them themselves, or have family who still do.  I also had a great neighbour who worked for what was then Railtrack in a department to try to expand the railways, and we had many a BBQ and beer discussing the tactics in play.


I care not for it because its outdated, inefficient, expensive for those using it, and even more expensive for those that don't.  Would you be kind enough to subsidise my car journeys by 60%? Thought not.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 30 August 2019, 18:24:04
Similar to the NHS then ?





Blue touch paper lit, withdraw to a safe distance.  :D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 18:31:06
No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)
True. Pre Victorian is what I should have said.

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)
Get your arse there, you'll see.  And listen to the workers and bosses, rather than the PR 'dangle berries' you seem to fall for all the time. And you too will grasp that the railways aren't run for the passengers.

I think I understand the railway industry pretty well, having friends and colleagues who either work/worked on them themselves, or have family who still do.  I also had a great neighbour who worked for what was then Railtrack in a department to try to expand the railways, and we had many a BBQ and beer discussing the tactics in play.


I care not for it because its outdated, inefficient, expensive for those using it, and even more expensive for those that don't.  Would you be kind enough to subsidise my car journeys by 60%? Thought not.

I knew many of the old railway people of Swindon, GWR and BR, when I knew That town, and Bristol very well over two decades. I also came into much contact with real railway professionals who after doing their job with BR, then turned up in their 'spare time' to work on preserved railways.  They loved their profession with a passion! They have now, in the main gone as they have been pissed off by pure, non caring management / politicians who do not care for anything but meeting targets; f the customer!

If you read my posts fully you will note I have already stated that the problem of the 'new' railways is that it is no longer run by died in the wool, in the blood, for generations railway men and women, who cared about their job and importantly their passengers. So I have already agreed with you that the current problem is there are few who really care for the business. That is what must change!

I will say no more as my previous posts cover it all. ;)



Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 30 August 2019, 20:11:30
No, because that would be historically incorrect. ;)
True. Pre Victorian is what I should have said.

As for Swindon..........you have obviously failed to understand that the great railway town is no more, and no longer houses masses of railway workers.  Ask any of the retired workers who built great locomotives and everything else for the GWR (as I have in the past) who they blame for the demise of the extensive plant and the answer will be "the bloody government / politicians" who allowed the business to go to other plants, like Derby and Doncaster, then in turn allowed foreign companies to take the orders.

Sorry TB, but it is you who mis-understands the railway industry, and of course also cares not a jot for it. ::) ::)


I care not for it because its outdated, inefficient, expensive for those using it, and even more expensive for those that don't.  Would you be kind enough to subsidise my car journeys by 60%? Thought not.

Right, I have got more to say after doing the dinner.

Your last sentence says it all now.  You may hate the railways, but actually, more importantly, begrudge "subsidising" those unfortunate enough to not be able to travel by other means than the railways.  ::) ::)

Those who medically cannot, those due to age cannot now drive, those who cannot afford (unlike lucky you and me!) to get licence and fully fund a car, or find it too difficult to get to their place of work due to a) distance b) time taken c) fear of driving long distances and/or in cities, and the young folk who are just starting out in life and have landed a great job. That doesn't take into account all the students who may enjoy a discount on the fares, but still have to fork out considerable sums to travel.  You think you are subsidising everything, but have you seem the latest annual fares?! 

I have repeatedly reiterated that most of those who travel by train have no choice, but in your view take away the railways now and sod em!  That is typical of the 'I'm all right Jack' of today! >:(

You and I are lucky, but hundreds of thousands are not. They NEED the railways - you know those that work for the hospitals, in schools, colleges, universities, that are not on the highest pay, cannot afford their own transport, and anyway have no parking space available, let alone afford the cost of using one!

No, you are living in your own bubble where it is so easy to shout about what YOU want, just like our ruddy politicians!

Like it or lump it we need, until there is an alternative, public transport, bus, coach, or railways for those billions of journeys required. WE have to pay for that, as indeed those who do not use a motor car have to, indirectly pay for massive road schemes. Just like we have to pay for the other necessities of life, like hospitals, schools, libraries, play centres, etc,etc, even though we may never use them.

If you really cared, and want everyone to stop using the railways due to being so out dated and inefficient, then argue through the politicians for the provision of cars, electric of course, for everyone who MAY be able to use one, funded by us. Then tackle the problem of an extra 74 million tonnes of freight going onto the roads every year that will cause all kinds of financial and environmental problems, but of course you, it seems, would not care about that as long as your car is subsidised - by whom?  ::) ::) ::)

As I have said you have got stuck to a computer screen and virtual reality, not what millions of others have to face in full, nasty, reality.  Wait to all your IT jobs go as computers look after themselves, from design, manufacture, use, modifications, and then disregarding those humans that are now dispensable and cost far too much to "subsidise". So even your jobs are already becoming historic, belonging to a different bygone age, and should be scrapped like the Victorian trains and motor vehicles.  In fact we all will be in the crap! ::) ::)

What does the statement at the bottom of your posts say that refers to how I view you?......... ::) ::)

Right, rant over.......feels a lot better ;D ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Kevin Wood on 30 August 2019, 23:31:24
I found the railways very useful recently... in order to travel to the Jag garage to pick up my new car. :P

Truth is, it just happened to be in the one compass direction in which you can actually travel by rail from here. Most of my destinations aren't. ;D

Journey was much quicker, cheaper and more comfortable on the way back, and that's without having to deal with the overcrowded commuter trains on a school day.

Truth is, I don't mind a train journey every so often. If only London wasn't the only place I could sensibly go, and my wallet didn't get emptied in the process. ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Andy B on 31 August 2019, 00:16:59
..... Most of my destinations aren't. ;D .....

I'm actually south of you as I type   :y :y :y :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 03 September 2019, 14:36:43
Haven't looked into it properly but just seen a banner across the bottom of the screen saying the 1st phase of HS2 will be delayed for up to five years.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 03 September 2019, 14:39:59
Haven't looked into it properly but just seen a banner across the bottom of the screen saying the 1st phase of HS2 will be delayed for up to five years.

Yes, and now I have heard 7 years!! :o :o ::) ::) >:(
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 03 September 2019, 15:05:01
Haven't looked into it properly but just seen a banner across the bottom of the screen saying the 1st phase of HS2 will be delayed for up to five years.


That's so the dreamers don't realise it's actually been cancelled :)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 03 September 2019, 16:26:02
Haven't looked into it properly but just seen a banner across the bottom of the screen saying the 1st phase of HS2 will be delayed for up to five years.


That's so the dreamers don't realise it's actually been cancelled :)

........or to help people forget what it is going to cost ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 03 September 2019, 17:57:08
Most people I have to stand with on the Chiltern Slug can afford their posh cars that they drive to the station with. I suspect most of them earn at least double what I do.  They can pay for their own oppsing tickets.

The system is inefficient, ineffective, expensive, and as I've said countless times before, run purely for those working on it.  Its not used by the disabled, poor (more expensive than unsubsidised options) or licky brigade.  Its used by people who want to work in London (for big bucks, and 60% subsidised travel), but rightly don't want to live in the shithole.


So back to my original point, are you going to pay me 60% of my travel costs please?  Thought not.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 03 September 2019, 17:58:46
And todays "report" is nothing new, its already long been announced it will be late by years, and costs uncontrolled.  That was well known 5 years ago. In fact, I think at the HS2 roadshows, they thought 2030 was more realistic for Phase 1, but not acceptable politically.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 03 September 2019, 18:16:21
Most people I have to stand with on the Chiltern Slug can afford their posh cars that they drive to the station with. I suspect most of them earn at least double what I do.  They can pay for their own oppsing tickets.

The system is inefficient, ineffective, expensive, and as I've said countless times before, run purely for those working on it.  Its not used by the disabled, poor (more expensive than unsubsidised options) or licky brigade.  Its used by people who want to work in London (for big bucks, and 60% subsidised travel), but rightly don't want to live in the shithole.


So back to my original point, are you going to pay me 60% of my travel costs please?  Thought not.

And back to my original  point, why should I or anyone else do so? ::) ::) ::);D ;D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 03 September 2019, 18:22:54
And back to my original  point, why should I or anyone else do so? ::) ::) ::);D ;D ;)
And why should I do so for somebody who is a damn sight richer than I'll ever be?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 03 September 2019, 18:23:31
Most people I have to stand with on the Chiltern Slug can afford their posh cars that they drive to the station with. I suspect most of them earn at least double what I do.  They can pay for their own oppsing tickets.

The system is inefficient, ineffective, expensive, and as I've said countless times before, run purely for those working on it.  Its not used by the disabled, poor (more expensive than unsubsidised options) or licky brigade.  Its used by people who want to work in London (for big bucks, and 60% subsidised travel), but rightly don't want to live in the shithole.


So back to my original point, are you going to pay me 60% of my travel costs please?  Thought not.

And back to my original  point, why should I or anyone else do so? ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)


Because roads are heavily subsidised. If we had to pay the real cost per mile every time we used them, car use would rapidly diminish and the price of a rail ticket would look a lot more reasonable. Which will have to happen eventually.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 03 September 2019, 18:30:04
Because roads are heavily subsidised. If we had to pay the real cost per mile every time we used them, car use would rapidly diminish and the price of a rail ticket would look a lot more reasonable. Which will have to happen eventually.
Adding all the taxes on motorists, I doubt roads are subsidised for car users, only for the lycra brigade and toffs on horses.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 03 September 2019, 18:32:42
Most people I have to stand with on the Chiltern Slug can afford their posh cars that they drive to the station with. I suspect most of them earn at least double what I do.  They can pay for their own oppsing tickets.

The system is inefficient, ineffective, expensive, and as I've said countless times before, run purely for those working on it.  Its not used by the disabled, poor (more expensive than unsubsidised options) or licky brigade.  Its used by people who want to work in London (for big bucks, and 60% subsidised travel), but rightly don't want to live in the shithole.


So back to my original point, are you going to pay me 60% of my travel costs please?  Thought not.

And back to my original  point, why should I or anyone else do so? ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)


Because roads are heavily subsidised. If we had to pay the real cost per mile every time we used them, car use would rapidly diminish and the price of a rail ticket would look a lot more reasonable. Which will have to happen eventually.
But I'm all for it. Reduce road duty to nothing. Remove tax on insurance and breakdown. Remove fuel duty. And charge 20p per mile.

That'll keep the bone idle mummies on school runs out of my way. And I'll still be quids in.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 03 September 2019, 18:57:40
Most people I have to stand with on the Chiltern Slug can afford their posh cars that they drive to the station with. I suspect most of them earn at least double what I do.  They can pay for their own oppsing tickets.

The system is inefficient, ineffective, expensive, and as I've said countless times before, run purely for those working on it.  Its not used by the disabled, poor (more expensive than unsubsidised options) or licky brigade.  Its used by people who want to work in London (for big bucks, and 60% subsidised travel), but rightly don't want to live in the shithole.


So back to my original point, are you going to pay me 60% of my travel costs please?  Thought not.

And back to my original  point, why should I or anyone else do so? ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)


Because roads are heavily subsidised. If we had to pay the real cost per mile every time we used them, car use would rapidly diminish and the price of a rail ticket would look a lot more reasonable. Which will have to happen eventually.

Well done Nick! :y :y :y

Somebody else who identifies the reality, and how things will and must change 8) 8) :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Nick W on 03 September 2019, 23:22:27
Well done Nick! :y :y :y

Somebody else who identifies the reality, and how things will and must change 8) 8) :y


Oh it's much worse than that.


Changes in transport use will be a side effect of a disaster that most of us won't want to live through. As long as it's not in the next twenty years, I don't care.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 03 September 2019, 23:27:54
Getting back to HS2. The company  responsible for building it announced today that it might go seven years and another £25 billion over budget. Its going to be the biggest white elephant in history by the look if it.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 06 September 2019, 18:34:51
Well done Nick! :y :y :y

Somebody else who identifies the reality, and how things will and must change 8) 8) :y


Oh it's much worse than that.


Changes in transport use will be a side effect of a disaster that most of us won't want to live through. As long as it's not in the next twenty years, I don't care.

+1, yep getting into my 80's will be quite enough for me :D :D :y :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 09 September 2019, 19:54:26
If HS2 was scrapped tomorrow (I wish) about £6bn has already been wasted spent out of the £56bn original cost, leaving about £50bn that could be spent on other much more beneficial, much more cost effective alternatives, but what?

Fortunately, the TPA organised "The Great British Transport Competition" which resulted in 28 projects being selected & are in their report below. Have a read & I would be interested in your comments. Many of the rail projects include reintroducing passenger services back on to freight only lines and the revival of disused or partially disused railway lines which reduce further the justification for HS2 which is now unlikely to be completed until the 2030s at a cost (allowing for delays & further price increases) of £90-£100+bn.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640 (https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 09 September 2019, 20:47:07
If HS2 was scrapped tomorrow (I wish) about £6bn has already been wasted spent out of the £56bn original cost, leaving about £50bn that could be spent on other much more beneficial, much more cost effective alternatives, but what?

Fortunately, the TPA organised "The Great British Transport Competition" which resulted in 28 projects being selected & are in their report below. Have a read & I would be interested in your comments. Many of the rail projects include reintroducing passenger services back on to freight only lines and the revival of disused or partially disused railway lines which reduce further the justification for HS2 which is now unlikely to be completed until the 2030s at a cost (allowing for delays & further price increases) of £90-£100+bn.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640 (https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/taxpayersalliance/pages/16562/attachments/original/1558213640/GBTC_REPORT_FINAL_REVIEWED_18MAY2019.pdf?1558213640)

Now that is something I have been saying since the 1980's, on the back of the fine efforts made by the Railway Preservation sector. So many lines shut by Beeching, although unprofitable then, could now be so beneficial as whole communities have grown up along those old track beds. Some, however, have no use now and should not be re-opened, but many others should be for good commercial, social, and environmental reasons in the 21st century.

The list of these is a long one, which I am not going to foolishly quote as without facts about the viability and practicality of each it is a pointless exercise. Local lines generally to ease congestion across the areas now growing in population is an obvious factor, especially here in the South.  But, the old main lines like the Sommerset & Dorset from Bournemouth up to Bath, along with the old Great Central main line from London, via Rugby, then to Nottingham and Sheffield, onto Manchester, come to mind. In the case of the latter, if HS2 etc does not go ahead you have the opportunity to open up the centre of the country once more to a fast line with the much needed additional capacity that is needed from London to Nottingham onto Sheffield, with Manchester at the top.

Some large sections of that lines track bed and general infrastructure still exists, with two separate parts occupied by Steam Railway Preservation groups running trains. These lines should be used to increase freight traffic away from the roads, as well as providing passenger movement between towns and cities, with surrounding communities, much enlarged since the 1960's.

But all this would, yet again, open up challenges by NIMBY groups, with the challenges immense as many parts of the old infrastructure have gone,with buildings now occupying the sites, so costs would be very large indeed.  Then you have the objections from TB and the anti-rail lobby, so all this may be no more of a runner than HS2!! ::) ::) :D ;)

Pity, a great pity! :'( :'(

Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 09 September 2019, 21:07:13
Oh, and for our Scottish members I would add that extending the fairly recently re-opened Waverly Line from Edinburgh to Tweedback should now go on to be returned to the full length running to Carlisle, as apparently there is a good case for that. ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 10 September 2019, 16:29:18
objections from TB and the anti-rail lobby
Not particularly anti rail, its just its an unviable, expensive and inefficient system.

If it could run without subsidies, ie those who use it pay for it, lets do it. But it can't, and it won't
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Rods2 on 10 September 2019, 16:51:14
The 28 schemes in the report above also include several major road improvements schemes, including a new lower Thames tunnel to ease M25 congestion as well as rail ones, so this must be a first for TB to be against that. :-[ :P
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 10 September 2019, 18:16:36
objections from TB and the anti-rail lobby
Not particularly anti rail, its just its an unviable, expensive and inefficient system.

If it could run without subsidies, ie those who use it pay for it, lets do it. But it can't, and it won't

But that is the thing TB, as you keep on reminding everyone the system is Victorian in origin and requires the billions now being pumped in to bring it up to 21st century+ standards that we all expect. This is after decades of a lack of government funding after it all was left to rot in 1963, and indeed before that going back to 1948. Someone has to pay for that, and it is you and me!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)

 
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 10 September 2019, 18:24:11
The 28 schemes in the report above also include several major road improvements schemes, including a new lower Thames tunnel to ease M25 congestion as well as rail ones, so this must be a first for TB to be against that. :-[ :P

That is already at an advanced stage of public discussions about the plans drawn up, with test bore holes being sunk.

However, after 29,000 people responded, many very negatively, to the proposals it is yet another project being delayed by the NIMBY group! ::) ::) ::) :(
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:22:14
objections from TB and the anti-rail lobby
Not particularly anti rail, its just its an unviable, expensive and inefficient system.

If it could run without subsidies, ie those who use it pay for it, lets do it. But it can't, and it won't

But that is the thing TB, as you keep on reminding everyone the system is Victorian in origin and requires the billions now being pumped in to bring it up to 21st century+ standards that we all expect. This is after decades of a lack of government funding after it all was left to rot in 1963, and indeed before that going back to 1948. Someone has to pay for that, and it is you and me!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Forget the under-investment, the rail industry in the UK has NEVER broken even.  Thus unviable.

Would you expect your old retail empire to be taxpayer backed if it had failed to break even for 200 years?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:26:08
The 28 schemes in the report above also include several major road improvements schemes, including a new lower Thames tunnel to ease M25 congestion as well as rail ones, so this must be a first for TB to be against that. :-[ :P

That is already at an advanced stage of public discussions about the plans drawn up, with test bore holes being sunk.

However, after 29,000 people responded, many very negatively, to the proposals it is yet another project being delayed by the NIMBY group! ::) ::) ::) :(
You can blame on NIMBYs or anything else. It just shows the public doesn't want it, but the rail industry - in business purely and only considerate of the rail industry - will plough ahead, wasting precious tax payer resources.

And remember, its the NIMBYs who have to tolerate years of disruption and inconvenience of construction, and the constant noise of running in life.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 11:31:27
Some nimbies really don't have an argument...

I suspect that you can count on one hand all the people around Gatwick that predate the airfield...

And I would also wager that the bulk of those making the most noise use it at least four times a year 'because it's more convenient' than the alternatives...
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:41:15
Some nimbies really don't have an argument...

I suspect that you can count on one hand all the people around Gatwick that predate the airfield...

And I would also wager that the bulk of those making the most noise use it at least four times a year 'because it's more convenient' than the alternatives...
Don't forget the 3rd Heathrow strip of tarmac. Heathrow has been there an awful long time, and with a lot more noise before Concord(e) was retired.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 11:59:12
The changes in noise isn't apparent until an older aircraft taxis past... The howl of a pair of RB211s at idle is several decibels up from the latest engines...
B757 (https://youtu.be/-KKCcK4aCzI)

A320 Neo (https://youtu.be/rz81YvLuIGU)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 11 September 2019, 13:33:32
objections from TB and the anti-rail lobby
Not particularly anti rail, its just its an unviable, expensive and inefficient system.

If it could run without subsidies, ie those who use it pay for it, lets do it. But it can't, and it won't

But that is the thing TB, as you keep on reminding everyone the system is Victorian in origin and requires the billions now being pumped in to bring it up to 21st century+ standards that we all expect. This is after decades of a lack of government funding after it all was left to rot in 1963, and indeed before that going back to 1948. Someone has to pay for that, and it is you and me!! ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Forget the under-investment, the rail industry in the UK has NEVER broken even.  Thus unviable.

Would you expect your old retail empire to be taxpayer backed if it had failed to break even for 200 years?

Here we go again... ;D ;D ;D ;D  Yes, the Big Four railway companies from 1st January 1923 did produce profits, some more than others, but they did.  Then came the 1930's depression, followed by WW2 and the non-recompensed war demands on the system generally that ruined what had been, with a British Railways from 1st January 1948  being 'run' by the awful management of the British Transport Commission until 1963, that completed the destruction of it's commercial viability.  Beeching came along and used his accounting eyes to cut out the non-profit making lines under an anti- railway government direction. Some lines had to be closed, it was inevitable.  But in the process it was not appreciated by the accountants that many branch lines fed the main lines with passenger and freight business, and the big 'duplications' of main lines actually were a highly valuable asset to provide addition main line capacity, especially during peak demand, or when the other line was blocked for any reason, whilst serving the many communities along their length.

As for running a normal commercial business without profit?  : No, of course not.  But the railways must be viewed as an essential public service that keeps the country moving and tens of thousands of businesses able to operate and be profitable, as well as here in the UK, not abroad. Can you imagine our big cities not being fed by the railway lines bringing in workers and goods? The simple answer is, if they did not, the commercial centres of those cities will collapse.

That is why the Socialists have always wanted the railways to be Nationalised again so it is under government control for the complete benefit of the Country.  That is of course where the arguments start about allowing governmental inefficiency, meddling in an industry that requires professional railwaymen running it, not ham fisted, uncommitted, and ignorant civil servants as back in the days from 1948 to 1994.  ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 13:55:37
Yes, the Big Four railway companies from 1st January 1923 did produce profits, some more than others, but they did
The industry as a whole has NEVER made a profit. Beeching had the right idea, unprofitable lines should be shut. Only he was too much of a pussy, and only did a half arsed job.


As for running a normal commercial business without profit?  : No, of course not.  But the railways must be viewed as an essential public service that keeps the country moving and tens of thousands of businesses able to operate and be profitable, as well as here in the UK, not abroad. Can you imagine our big cities not being fed by the railway lines bringing in workers and goods? The simple answer is, if they did not, the commercial centres of those cities will collapse.
I get a feeling you don't actually use trains?  Their primary purpose is to get people who don't want to live in the shitholes they create into the shitholes they create for work.

Now electricity, water and arguably in this day and age, Internet are essential services.  Not *any* form of transport.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 11 September 2019, 16:14:21
Yes, the Big Four railway companies from 1st January 1923 did produce profits, some more than others, but they did
The industry as a whole has NEVER made a profit. Beeching had the right idea, unprofitable lines should be shut. Only he was too much of a pussy, and only did a half arsed job.


As for running a normal commercial business without profit?  : No, of course not.  But the railways must be viewed as an essential public service that keeps the country moving and tens of thousands of businesses able to operate and be profitable, as well as here in the UK, not abroad. Can you imagine our big cities not being fed by the railway lines bringing in workers and goods? The simple answer is, if they did not, the commercial centres of those cities will collapse.
I get a feeling you don't actually use trains?  Their primary purpose is to get people who don't want to live in the shitholes they create into the shitholes they create for work.

Now electricity, water and arguably in this day and age, Internet are essential services.  Not *any* form of transport.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D  That is a sweeping general statement.  I have spent years of studying the history of the railways, but regretfully nowadays I have not got to hand the exact facts and figures relating to the accounts of the Big Four, especially for the 1930's :'( :'(  so I will summarize accordingly -

It is, and always was a very complicated picture across the industry, with the -

GWR - was always the most profitable throughout it's history
 SR - which was profitable, but lacked the advantage of heavy freight handing
 LMS - often struggling to maintain profitability as it's freight business declined significantly during the years of the depression
LNER - Suffered extremely badly, with loss of profitability, from 1929 with a major decline in their freight business, which included the movement of coad and steel.

It must not be forgotten though that these companies operated more than just trains.  They were a major operator of:
Hotels
Railway Air Services
Household removals, the largest in the country
Road transport, with the largest fleet in the country, including 15,000+ road passenger vehicles and 9,000 non-passenger vehicles
Ships and Ferries
Docks and Harbour facilities
Plus, the owners of 51,000 houses
112,000 workshops

Their empires were all encompassing, with the GWR in particular also producing many household items, fixtures and fittings in their workshops - indeed everything a family, especially those working for the company, living in their operating region required.

As I touched on before, the Great War and the Second World War severely damaged the railways in terms of extreme wear & tear, caused by massive increases in train movements, with locomotives in particular being left badly worn out.  All this was never recompensed, so no benefit was seen in the accounts of the railway companies, compounded by the fact that all the massive increases in costs, that severely damaged profits, was never compensated for. Especially after WW2 the Big Four were left broke, giving the government of the day the opportunity of Nationalising all of them.

As for me using trains; well not now, but on business I often had to when travelling into London and I loved them!  They  were, in the 1970's to 1990's, so much better than those trains I frequently was on travelling with my parents in the 1950's and early 1960's!  Especially the Intercity 125's out of Bristol were a pleasure to use 8) 8) 8)  But the infrastructure was out of date then, urgently requiring the massive investment that is at last taken place in the 21st century! :y :y :y

Sorry TB, but the age of the motor car is over; the new age of the train is just beginning! 8) 8) :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 12 September 2019, 12:56:21
I clearly said the rail industry as a whole.  I was surprised to find out that, as I too thought the late Victorian railways were raking it in. But it appears by nowhere near enough to cover the loses on other parts.

And currently, rail companies are allowed to make 2% profit approx, and remember that's with a 60% subsidy.  I'm taking that to be a massive loss on every line.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 16:31:45
I clearly said the rail industry as a whole.  I was surprised to find out that, as I too thought the late Victorian railways were raking it in. But it appears by nowhere near enough to cover the loses on other parts.

And currently, rail companies are allowed to make 2% profit approx, and remember that's with a 60% subsidy.  I'm taking that to be a massive loss on every line.


That's right, and those railways varied greatly in terms of the areas covered and the business potential from the cities, towns, or very rural districts (that would always struggle to meet their operating costs) and the profits enjoyed.  The very considerable costs in the original build of each line also affected them.  All that is why the grouping of 1st January 1923 took place to form four powerful controlling companies out of the 123 companies then in existence, to give them a more stable business model.  Of course, the Great Western Railway was the only one to remain very much as was all the way through, just taking on the assorted mineral lines of South Wales in particular.

As for the current railway companies, they are being made to invest very large sums of their money to upgrade the rolling stock across their whole range of operations, that the old Big Four did not have to do, with them concentrating their investments in the premier, main line, services, which particular applied to the LMS and LNER in the 1930's, fighting each other for the passenger business from main northern centres to London. That cost a lot of money.

Of course the current railway companies do not own the infrastructure, nationalised Network Rail does, which of course is sinking billions of Government / public money to upgrade it all, with the private companies paying serious sums to NR for 'their' facilities. It is a situation that, in my opinion, is too complicated, inefficient, and expensive that is a mis-match between private and nationalised companies.  Wastage and mismanagement is the result.  But, we NEED those railways, with or without HS2, for now and especially the future, so it needs political will and determination to resolve the issues that are so public most days of the week.  Running the railways is not, and never was cheap.  Obtaining a profit is always a real challenge, just like in any other business.  In all honesty I am not aware of the 2% limit on profits, but with the heavy investment going on, and £1 billion paid to shareholders of those companies over the last 6 years, I do not think that is a problem. What I do know is it is not a field I would want to manage in!

Indeed, just look as to what has happened to the companies running the East Coast main line; not enough profits there to keep even Virgin interested!

No, all of us must be realistic. Running railways is hard, especially when trying to bring them up to 21st century standards after decades of neglect.  Other companies could well suffer with declining profits as they are forced to invest big money in rolling stock upgrades, increasing payments to Network Rail, and then re-payments on eye-watering loans.  But, strangely, as I had attempted to indicate before, I am one business manager who must recognise that the normal operational requirements of Making Profit, nothing more, nothing less, cannot apply in the same way to the railways which are, I repeat, an essential national public service.  Does that mean we are reaching a stage where the railways MUST be nationalised, contrary to my instincts, the history of BR, and knowing that the capitalist system is best for creation and development, not the stifling, lacking in imagination, socialist resolution?  Frankly I am not that sure now!!  But I want the railways to work and do what they are good at; the transit of mass volumes of human and freight traffic. ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 12 September 2019, 16:34:28
FFS.....who cares any more?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 16:38:26
FFS.....who cares any more?

If you are one of the millions using the railways everyday, you would care, especially when your fares are going up out of line with your wages, or you are a commercial concern relying on the railway network to move your goods! ::) ::) :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 16:47:34
..........................also we must recognise that you would care if the proposed route of the HS lines, or if the old lines are re-opened, are going to affect your property ::) :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 12 September 2019, 16:59:37
Yes......but who, on here, cares any more? Turning into another bus thread.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 17:18:21
Yes......but who, on here, cares any more? Turning into another bus thread.

But you do not have to read it Steve, like I do not bother to read many threads, especially those on "B"!! ::) ::) ::)

Having a bad day are we?? ::) ::) :D :D :D :-* :-* ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 12 September 2019, 17:19:42
Yes......but who, on here, cares any more? Turning into another bus thread.

But you do not have to read it Steve, like I do not bother to read many threads, especially those on "B"!! ::) ::) ::)

Having a bad day are we?? ::) ::) :D :D :D :-* :-* ;)
No, not having a bad day, just livening things up a bit  ;D :P :P :P
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 17:54:25
Yes......but who, on here, cares any more? Turning into another bus thread.

But you do not have to read it Steve, like I do not bother to read many threads, especially those on "B"!! ::) ::) ::)

Having a bad day are we?? ::) ::) :D :D :D :-* :-* ;)
No, not having a bad day, just livening things up a bit ;D :P :P :P

 ;D ;D ;D ;D   I like it! :y :y
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 12 September 2019, 18:24:23
So, despite the fact that the company in charge of building the thing announced last week that they think it likely it will go another seven years and another £25 billion over budget, you still think its a great use of public money ?
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 12 September 2019, 19:44:38
So, despite the fact that the company in charge of building the thing announced last week that they think it likely it will go another seven years and another £25 billion over budget, you still think its a great use of public money ?

No, but the government must look at how the money is proposed to be spent and not just sitting back and accepting what they are being told. The line and those to link to it are required, but the way the scheme is being managed is obviously flawed, as these things often are when politicians / civil servants have the controlling say.

What it needs is a completely different approach with a real senior business person, used to being in control of international companies with an excellent track record, to demand from the contractors they pick, after the normal raising of quotations (not estimates), what is required and the absolute limit on cost that cannot be exceeded.

That is how it works in any successful commercial operation where profitability is crucial. Those that cannot achieve their goals must be dismissed, and then others who can given the position.

The review should also wipe out any intention to experiment with non-off the shelf rolling stock and fancy civil engineering. Full value for money is a must, and if that is not possible no contracts should be signed off and then, regrettfully, the whole project should be scrapped, but not until all due process has been explored by senior commercial managers who have been given very clear objectives by the CEO.

So a very hard nosed approach must be pursued, not the wishy washy one we are witnessing.  >:( >:(
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 09:26:04
Sacking people because they can't budget to make a stupid idea work is precisely why projects like this get past the ideas stage :-X
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 13 September 2019, 15:30:59
FFS.....who cares any more?

If you are one of the millions using the railways everyday, you would care, especially when your fares are going up out of line with your wages, or you are a commercial concern relying on the railway network to move your goods! ::) ::) :D ;)
The fares are rising, the subsidies remain the same, and the "profits" remain consistently low.  That sounds like its a sinking ship that we should jump, as it will never improved.

And the only people using trains are commuters.  I suspect the rest count for less than 15%.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 13 September 2019, 15:32:08
FFS.....who cares any more?

If you are one of the millions using the railways everyday, you would care, especially when your fares are going up out of line with your wages, or you are a commercial concern relying on the railway network to move your goods! ::) ::) :D ;)
The fares are rising, the subsidies remain the same, and the "profits" remain consistently low.  That sounds like its a sinking ship that we should jump, as it will never improved.

And the only people using trains are commuters.  I suspect the rest count for less than 15%.
Surely no one would take one for fun?  :o
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 13 September 2019, 15:33:29
Having said that, the amount of temporary traffic lights that are around here at the mo, driving isn't that much fun either.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 13 September 2019, 15:34:01
with a real senior business person, used to being in control of international companies with an excellent track record
But you are forgetting that the UK rail industry is run for the people who run it.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 15:35:35
with a real senior business person, used to being in control of international companies with an excellent track record
But you are forgetting that the UK rail industry is run for the people who run it.
You wouldn't know it from the standard of service  :-X
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 13 September 2019, 15:37:14
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 13 September 2019, 15:40:28
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
But I was young and resilient in those days. I didn't mind trying to piss into a moving target that was already full of piss.  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 15:41:00
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
At least you're guaranteed a seat on the coach.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 13 September 2019, 15:43:24
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
At least you're guaranteed a seat on the coach.
Next to the student, backpacker, drunk, nutter  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 13 September 2019, 15:46:36
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
But its cheaper, guaranteed a seat, and isn't raping the tax payer of their hard earned.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 15:53:29
There are worse forms of transport, I think. The National Express coach from London Victoria coach station to Liverpool was ....erm......an experience  ;D
At least you're guaranteed a seat on the coach.
Next to the student, backpacker, drunk, nutter  ;D
Better that than having to share a doorway with them on the train.

That said, I have done the overnight train from Lundun to Edinbugger and also an overnight coach from Lundun to Mancchester. Couldn't tell you which was worse :-\
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 13 September 2019, 17:14:18
But surely after the cull , there will be more room on the roads and tarmacking  over rail lines will provide a network of fast roads reserved for omega drivers  :-\
I'm sure I read that in TB's manifesto  :P
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 17:26:32
But surely after the cull , there will be more room on the roads and tarmacking  over rail lines will provide a network of fast roads reserved for omega drivers  :-\
I'm sure I read that in TB's manifesto  :P
The way the doom mongers are going on, it's going to be less cull, more global annihilation  :D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Lizzie Zoom on 13 September 2019, 19:27:10
FFS.....who cares any more?

If you are one of the millions using the railways everyday, you would care, especially when your fares are going up out of line with your wages, or you are a commercial concern relying on the railway network to move your goods! ::) ::) :D ;)
The fares are rising, the subsidies remain the same, and the "profits" remain consistently low.  That sounds like its a sinking ship that we should jump, as it will never improved.

And the only people using trains are commuters.  I suspect the rest count for less than 15%.
Surely no one would take one for fun?  :o

Exactly!  The common rail passenger is going to work in some form or another, or coming back ::) ::) :D :D ;)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 14 September 2019, 15:01:49
Better that than having to share a doorway with them on the train.
I've had to share the toilet cubicle thing with other passengers in the past.  I recall one day coming back from Brum, sharing with a colourful character popping strong pain killers like smarties, to ease his back, and dulling the pain with a bottle of vodka.  I let him have the bog seat, I just stood next to him.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 14 September 2019, 15:46:33
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 14 September 2019, 16:48:51
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: TheBoy on 15 September 2019, 11:15:32
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 September 2019, 11:44:48
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.
I appreciate that your choice of employment gives you forty holidays a year, but at what cost :o
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 15 September 2019, 12:28:32
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.
If I'd have been busting for a shite, that could have been quite interesting  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 15 September 2019, 12:56:23
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.
If I'd have been busting for a shite, that could have been quite interesting  ;D
human rights contraventions that could have resulted in a Mexican wave of vomits  :-X
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 15 September 2019, 13:01:34
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.
If I'd have been busting for a shite, that could have been quite interesting  ;D
human rights contraventions that could have resulted in a Mexican wave of vomits  :-X
Or a Mexican wave of shite if they didn't move quick enough.   ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 15 September 2019, 13:22:50
I can't even remember the last time I went on a train anywhere
If i'm not driving sometimes have a private hire taxi,and sit in the back,listening to the suspension rattle  :-X
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 15 September 2019, 13:35:41
I can't even remember the last time I went on a train anywhere
If i'm not driving sometimes have a private hire taxi,and sit in the back,listening to the suspension rattle  :-X
Golf hatch suspension doesn't last five minutes on a Golf estate, let alone an abused Octavoa/Superb  ::)
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 15 September 2019, 18:40:24
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.

Jeez, that's a lot of people trying to hide from the ticket inspector!  :o  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: STEMO on 15 September 2019, 18:41:37
I applaud your bravery for admitting to all that in public.
Not as brave as standing next to them...  the only floor space would be next to the sink :D
The Chiltern Slug has huge bog cubicles, to make them disabled friendly.  I I've been in there with 7 or 8 people before.

Jeez, that's a lot of people trying to hide from the ticket inspector!  :o  ;D
7 standing and 1 squatting.  ;D
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: Migv6 le Frog Fan on 15 September 2019, 21:02:31
Its usually known as cottaging.
Title: Re: HS 2 to be "reviewed "
Post by: dave the builder on 15 September 2019, 21:15:33
Its usually known as cottaging.
Dogging  :y cottaging is the gays  ;)
you don't want to upset TB ,he'll change your user name to some p155-take name
oh wait  :-X