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Chat Area => General Car Chat => Topic started by: Sir Tigger QC on 10 September 2019, 23:08:56

Title: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 10 September 2019, 23:08:56
The New Land Rover Defender was launched at the Frankfurt Motor Show today and I quite like the look of it.  :y

Although it's certainly not a Defender in the traditional utility vehicle sense, if I had 40,000-50,000 to blow on a big 4x4 I'd certainly consider it over the Discovery 5!  :)

Lord Opti will be pleased to hear that it can have a 400bhp  3ltr straight 6 petrol engine!  :y  With mild hybrid whatever that is?  :-\  ;D

Can't see many farmers buying them, but they'll be great for the school run!  ;D

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7447869/Is-new-Land-Rover-Defender-glorious-4x4-reinvention-yummy-mummy-wagon.html
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 10 September 2019, 23:12:16
Looks like a rebadged Toyota FJ Cruiser ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 10 September 2019, 23:25:02
Or a Skoda Yeti on steroids?  :D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Kevin Wood on 10 September 2019, 23:44:36
Looks a bit of a minger to me. :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Andy B on 10 September 2019, 23:53:38
 :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 00:32:08
What I'd say is - if Land Rover made a rebodied version of the Evoque, with square-ish lines, badged it as Defender, with all the retro they could throw it it (a la Fiat Panda to 500) they'd have saved a ton of cash in design, testing etc, hell, it could even be 2WD. Yummy Mummies, Chelsea Tractorists, etc would lap it up proudly boasting they have a Defender.... all the while purists would be howling "that's not a Defender!"...

instead, they've made something which must surely be the most capable 4x4 they've ever made (just look at the specs/tech packed in this thing, Mr Google can help with this) And some other things I wasn't expecting...

Steel wheels on the base model - sound silly, but what a bold move for a 40k car, making a clear statement this is a utility vehicle. And 100% true to spirit of original.
Van version - this made me re-read it. Yes! you will be able to buy a commercial version of this car. They have not turned their back on a core demographic/customer base
Price - wasn't sure what they'd do - they could probably get away with going Range Rover money and idiots would pay it - 35k (ex vat) for the van version to about 60k. Check the interweb, old models ranged from 23k to 62k for the Autobiography, so given the huge kudos/demand this will have, they've not been greedy. People are screaming the prices are high - the Evoque starts at 31k - I'd argue this is twice the car an Evoque is, for not much more money.

Opinions, like genetalia we all have them, some's nicer to look at than others  :D but actually don't feel too negative about new Defender.  :y
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: aaronjb on 11 September 2019, 07:10:09
I kinda like it - agree it's very Toyota FJ though, more than Defender.

I'd still have a proper Defender...
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 07:36:50
Obviously I am biased and have a lot of inside knowledge.

The 90 I really like and I expect will be 35k inc vat.

It is stupidly capable off road, all models getting Hi/Low range box, locking centre diff and loads of ground clearance.

The Evoque platform (D8) is not nearly good enough for this type of vehicle, there is to much flex, its not scalable to a large enough size, its to heavy, the list goes on. Hence why it is derived from the D7u platform instead.

Mr Opti would appreciate the straight 6 petrol, its pretty wild!
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 10:16:31
Indeed, no way am I suggesting a rebodied Evoque would be a good thing, just that the 'easy money' route would have been something like that, and the car industry has done it many a time. Cash in on the kudos/reputation of an old name, withoiyut really capturing the spirit of the original. Mini the best example.

I also notice from pics there's black checkerplate (?) panels ont he bonnet  - looks like you're expected/able to stand on it, use it like a climbing frame like the original?

Personally this is one of those instances where my favourite model is the base model. Panda, C30, Caterham, 911 etc... all feel at their best doing their job simply, without frills...
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 10:25:19

Mr Opti would appreciate the straight 6 petrol, its pretty wild!

What's the Mild Hybrid thing about Mark?  ???
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 11:25:46

Mr Opti would appreciate the straight 6 petrol, its pretty wild!

What's the Mild Hybrid thing about Mark?  ???

MHEV in basic terms, is a big alternator come motor where the alternator goes (a 3 phase machine)

It harvests power under braking and bungs it into a 48V battery, this can then be used to assist acceleration, run without the engine at low speeds, and more importantly, supports the 48V electric supercharger on the 400bhp straight six.  ;D ;D



Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 11:39:13
Indeed, no way am I suggesting a rebodied Evoque would be a good thing, just that the 'easy money' route would have been something like that, and the car industry has done it many a time. Cash in on the kudos/reputation of an old name, withoiyut really capturing the spirit of the original. Mini the best example.

I also notice from pics there's black checkerplate (?) panels ont he bonnet  - looks like you're expected/able to stand on it, use it like a climbing frame like the original?

Personally this is one of those instances where my favourite model is the base model. Panda, C30, Caterham, 911 etc... all feel at their best doing their job simply, without frills...

The design brief was certainly to be able to perform as per the original, being a smaller manufacturer we have to be the best in our market for what we offer. For Defender it was its off-road/go-anywhere ability so that was critical in the new one.

The commercial ones look like they would do the job the old ones did on say a farm, extreme climates etc etc with even better off road ability.

Then of course there are the bling filled loaded examples for those who want them.  :y

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 11:41:24
85 ecus doesn't seem particularly military friendly :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:45:29
Obviously I am biased and have a lot of inside knowledge.

The 90 I really like and I expect will be 35k inc vat.

It is stupidly capable off road, all models getting Hi/Low range box, locking centre diff and loads of ground clearance.

The Evoque platform (D8) is not nearly good enough for this type of vehicle, there is to much flex, its not scalable to a large enough size, its to heavy, the list goes on. Hence why it is derived from the D7u platform instead.

Mr Opti would appreciate the straight 6 petrol, its pretty wild!
So when your heritage place buys one, will you be repeatedly cursing and grumbling about it.

;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: henryd on 11 September 2019, 11:46:11
85 ecus doesn't seem particularly military friendly :-\

Don't think many farmers will want them either !!! :-X
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 11:48:40
85 ecus doesn't seem particularly military friendly :-\

Don't think many farmers will want them either !!! :-X
I do worry that the delays - I think its 4yrs late from memory - may have diluted their key market, as farmers have looked elsewhere in the meantime.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Nick W on 11 September 2019, 12:26:29
85 ecus doesn't seem particularly military friendly :-\

Don't think many farmers will want them either !!! :-X


Not when they can buy a Ranger, L200 etc for 20k. Which are the reasons why they stopped buying Defenders and Discoveries in the first place.


I like it though; it looks like a mk3/4 Defender would have done if L/R had developed them continuously, and is without all the pointless design of the other cars. It looks thoroughly useful and practical too. If they can make it as durable as a Ranger, then it should have a long life.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 12:37:46
85 ecus doesn't seem particularly military friendly :-\

Don't think many farmers will want them either !!! :-X

Actually, it appears they do.

We get constant requests for them from farmers, who's alternatives have not been able to meet the capability of the original Defender, and we end up looking through group stock for the late originals (or selling them the V8 SVO new ones).

Had just the same in Rippon last week, his replacement vehicle just could not cope, getting stuck etc. and he now has an ex fleet hack
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 September 2019, 12:43:05
I struggle with the purpose of such a vehicle.

90% will be driven by wealthy 'fortysomething' women with fake tits and a tighter 'designer vagina' after popping out a couple of sprogs. I'm sure  it has great off-road capability, but this will not be needed or noticed when parking  in Waitrose, or driving in Chelsea.

I would go back to basics and strip the car of all it's pretentious  glitz. It should be returned to it's roots as an agricultural tool driven by a ruddy-faced farmer with his zipper down and a  fetching ewe on his lap.  ;)

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y

 

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 12:46:01

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y


What!!??  :o

I can't believe you just said that!  ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 September 2019, 12:50:14

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y


What!!??  :o

I can't believe you just said that!  ;D

I have never been anti-derv when used in a crude agricultural application, Sir Tig.......tractor......bus...lorry.....cement mixer.....canal boat.

Just keep the unholy black smoke baby killing lumps away from the motor car. :)

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 11 September 2019, 12:55:16
I think the van version will sell well, most pick-up owners don't need the capability, they have them because of the van tax regime that makes it much more viable than running a company car.

The ability to put your bum on a JLR seat while getting the tax man help you pay for it will be a powerful draw IMO.

As to the car itself, it's not for me, but I rather like the look of it and I'm sure it'll sell as fast as the Brummy communists can get them out the door.  :y
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 12:57:22

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y


What!!??  :o

I can't believe you just said that!  ;D

I have never been anti-derv when used in a crude agricultural application, Sir Tig.......tractor......bus...lorry.....cement mixer.....canal boat.

Just keep the unholy black smoke baby killing lumps away from the motor car. :)

Well it seems that when the application of the new Defender is to be a mum bus there is a 400bhp 6 cylinder petrol engine option!  :y

I assume you applaud this?  :)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 12:58:01
I think the van version will sell well, most pick-up owners don't need the capability, they have them because of the van tax regime that makes it much more viable than running a company car.

The ability to put your bum on a JLR seat while getting the tax man help you pay for it will be a powerful draw IMO.

As to the car itself, it's not for me, but I rather like the look of it and I'm sure it'll sell as fast as the Slovak communists can get them out the door.  :y

FTFY Jimmy!  ;)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 13:27:50
https://www.topgear.com/videos/frankfurt-motor-show/video-drink-all-details-land-rovers-new-defender

For some obscure reason Top Gear appears to have made a video including facts and information  :D so for anyone who is judging it on just the still pictures, its actually pretty useful, and you get to see some of the more subtle details which don't really come across in most pics.

I notice the checkerplate on the wings seems to be actually functional, so you can actually climb on the vehicle? They've also made the spec/trim levels pretty good re: As the Honorable Mr Fuse 19 says, gives you the choice of basic mud-plugger or blingmobile.

This was always my issue with the BMW Mini - if you're reinventing an icon you should look at what its market was then, why it became great, look at today's market, and make the vehicle for today and allow it to achieve its own greatness, not try and shoehorn it in with chrome bezels and union flag tailamps.

Bit of disposable income now the old RAF airfileds been converted back to pasture, need for round the farm duties, then pop into town without swapping to the old jalopy was the market in Post-War Britain... Even ffwd 30 years and the Series III/90/110 did somewhat still have the market to itself, and a do anything, go anywhere vehicle; being 4WD was still unusual.

None of that applies to today, today's clients & market. Also it suffered when it came up against such as Land Cruiser in world markets, hence it mainly remained a British institution - JLR clearly want this to be a worldwide sales success - they want to be the 'Band that breaks America'

Some might remember how the original Disco was originally seen as too 'soft' and 'just a family car' - now they're to be had for relative peanuts you see no end with sawn off bumpers, jacked up ride height, ladders everywhere and wheels off a monster truck. They were/are a very capable off roader wrapped up in the clothes of something softer, friendly. Its a fine line, Disco 4 was very hard-edged and very 'true' to LR ethos - and sales werent entirely there - the current is much softer, clean, minimalist and looks like a 'town car' - yet the offroad ability and functionality is still there, hidden under the surface for those who want to look.

Back to New Defender - lots of chunky black plastic to take/hide knocks and bumps I see, which is good  :y
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 September 2019, 13:33:57

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y


What!!??  :o

I can't believe you just said that!  ;D

I have never been anti-derv when used in a crude agricultural application, Sir Tig.......tractor......bus...lorry.....cement mixer.....canal boat.

Just keep the unholy black smoke baby killing lumps away from the motor car. :)

Well it seems that when the application of the new Defender is to be a mum bus there is a 400bhp 6 cylinder petrol engine option!  :y

I assume you applaud this?  :)

It needs to find an identity.

If it's primary purpose is as a 'mummy bus' then  I suggest JLR drop the expensive  all wheel drive gubbins and stick a humble 2 litre 4 pot petrol under the bonnet. It's heroic off road capability will not be required here.

If it is to be used a a genuine workhorse by ruddy faced farmers and spend it's day up to it's door handles in mud, then drop the chavvy Chesire elements and stick a crude old diesel lump in the front.

Simples......horses for courses. :y

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 13:48:12
Not when they can buy a Ranger, L200 etc for 20k. Which are the reasons why they stopped buying Defenders and Discoveries in the first place.
They never stopped buying Defenders, the demand was always there, and the sales numbers were ultra predictable.  JLR were forced into discontinuing it for various compliance reasons.  Farmers and utility companies want them due to their capability, and if anyone thinks that things like L200s are anywhere near as capable are living in a lovely world, far from reality ;)

Discos went too upmarket for utilitarian usage back with the Disco III.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 13:52:40

A crude derv engine from an old tug boat is fine for this application. :y


What!!??  :o

I can't believe you just said that!  ;D

I have never been anti-derv when used in a crude agricultural application, Sir Tig.......tractor......bus...lorry.....cement mixer.....canal boat.

Just keep the unholy black smoke baby killing lumps away from the motor car. :)

Well it seems that when the application of the new Defender is to be a mum bus there is a 400bhp 6 cylinder petrol engine option!  :y

I assume you applaud this?  :)

It needs to find an identity.

If it's primary purpose is as a 'mummy bus' then  I suggest JLR drop the expensive  all wheel drive gubbins and stick a humble 2 litre 4 pot petrol under the bonnet. It's heroic off road capability will not be required here.

If it is to be used a a genuine workhorse by ruddy faced farmers and spend it's day up to it's door handles in mud, then drop the chavvy Chesire elements and stick a crude old diesel lump in the front.

Simples......horses for courses. :y



Fair point... In part they did this with Evoque, of course - howls of hatred at the first 2WD Landie (only on base model as I recall)

I see you meaning - and that is one of the main challenges of LR, because they make these expensive, quality drivetrains, install them in UK factories, which are scarcely/never used, weigh a lot, make every vehicle heavier than the competition which has a knock-on effect of everything, as we know (mpg, handling, ride, acceleration you name it) and for 90% of customers who look at the specs sheet between the LR, BMW, Merc, Lexus as far as theyre concerned the Germans/Japanese/Koreans do 'the same' job as the Land Rover, for less money...

however...

The Land Rover does do it better, and as soon as you remove that ability - even on one model, you destroy the image in an instant. You make two identical-looking new Defenders one with the ultimate off-road underpinnings, one with 2WD and all mouth and no trousers...no-one looking for a serious offroader want to drive one because they don't want to be mistaken for driving the 'fake' version.... and ironically lots of the TOWIEs won't want to buy them because now 'everyone knows' they're not 'proper' off roaders any more.

Wearing a fake Rolex is fine... but you don't want everyone to know it's a fake, obviously.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 13:55:40

Discos went too upmarket for utilitarian usage back with the Disco III.

Yes, although the Disco 3 that I had was 12 years old and a base spec 'S' model, it was still too nice to fling a few sheep in the back and then get in the drivers seat with shitty boots on.  :)

I've no doubt that I could have got it to the top of a boggy field to get to the sheep though.  :y  ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: aaronjb on 11 September 2019, 14:00:31
Yes, although the Disco 3 that I had was 12 years old and a base spec 'S' model, it was still too nice to fling a few sheep in the back and then get in the drivers seat with shitty boots on.  :)

Don't you just, er, do what you need to in the field like the Welsh? You Dorset folks are so upmarket if you're taking them home to wine & dine them first! ;) ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 14:01:02
Not when they can buy a Ranger, L200 etc for 20k. Which are the reasons why they stopped buying Defenders and Discoveries in the first place.
They never stopped buying Defenders, the demand was always there, and the sales numbers were ultra predictable.  JLR were forced into discontinuing it for various compliance reasons.  Farmers and utility companies want them due to their capability, and if anyone thinks that things like L200s are anywhere near as capable are living in a lovely world, far from reality ;)

Discos went too upmarket for utilitarian usage back with the Disco III.


I've wanted to see, for a long time a Disco, even a Range Rover made as a stripped-down, hose-out the interior, steel wheels, vinyl seats trim level at a massive cut down price. I swear people would buy them - but thats the thing you judge things by your own opinons. I would, but I'm not everybody.

I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all. They do it all the time on sports cars and call them the 'lightweight' or the 'GT' or 'track edition' etc.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 14:17:08
The Land Rover does do it better, and as soon as you remove that ability - even on one model, you destroy the image in an instant.
And JLR have struggled (unfairly) to lose their (deserved) reliability issues that mostly went away around 15yrs ago.  Added to that, remember the British public like to berate any successful British company, be it JLR, Tesco, BT, Sky and so on


(yes I know that some of these now have foreign owners)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 14:18:23
Not when they can buy a Ranger, L200 etc for 20k. Which are the reasons why they stopped buying Defenders and Discoveries in the first place.
They never stopped buying Defenders, the demand was always there, and the sales numbers were ultra predictable.  JLR were forced into discontinuing it for various compliance reasons.  Farmers and utility companies want them due to their capability, and if anyone thinks that things like L200s are anywhere near as capable are living in a lovely world, far from reality ;)

Discos went too upmarket for utilitarian usage back with the Disco III.


I've wanted to see, for a long time a Disco, even a Range Rover made as a stripped-down, hose-out the interior, steel wheels, vinyl seats trim level at a massive cut down price. I swear people would buy them - but thats the thing you judge things by your own opinons. I would, but I'm not everybody.

I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all. They do it all the time on sports cars and call them the 'lightweight' or the 'GT' or 'track edition' etc.

Good point and strip out all the fancy electronic 4x4 gubbins as well, and return to manually operated Hi/Low shift, diff locks etc  :y

As an aside, when I was kid my Dad's mate Joe had a Forward Control and I used to love riding in it.  :y

I was always fascinated by all the levers with their different coloured knobs and if he caught me eyeing them up I'd get a stern "Don't touch those!"  ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: TheBoy on 11 September 2019, 14:20:57
I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all.
From what I know about car design - my bro, the guy I went on hols with last year (JLR, funnily enough), and friends, not to mention some of Mrs TB's colleagues - it would be quite a lot more, due to design costs, tooling costs, logistics and inventory and so on.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Field Marshal Dr. Opti on 11 September 2019, 14:23:12
Not when they can buy a Ranger, L200 etc for 20k. Which are the reasons why they stopped buying Defenders and Discoveries in the first place.
They never stopped buying Defenders, the demand was always there, and the sales numbers were ultra predictable.  JLR were forced into discontinuing it for various compliance reasons.  Farmers and utility companies want them due to their capability, and if anyone thinks that things like L200s are anywhere near as capable are living in a lovely world, far from reality ;)

Discos went too upmarket for utilitarian usage back with the Disco III.


I've wanted to see, for a long time a Disco, even a Range Rover made as a stripped-down, hose-out the interior, steel wheels, vinyl seats trim level at a massive cut down price. I swear people would buy them - but thats the thing you judge things by your own opinons. I would, but I'm not everybody.

I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all. They do it all the time on sports cars and call them the 'lightweight' or the 'GT' or 'track edition' etc.

Good point and strip out all the fancy electronic 4x4 gubbins as well, and return to manually operated Hi/Low shift, diff locks etc  :y

As an aside, when I was kid my Dad's mate Joe had a Forward Control and I used to love riding in it.  :y

I was always fascinated by all the levers with their different coloured knobs and if he caught me eyeing them up I'd get a stern "Don't touch those!"[/i]  ;D


.......swiftly followed by a clip around the ear. ;D
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Diamond Black Geezer on 11 September 2019, 14:27:36
I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all.
From what I know about car design - my bro, the guy I went on hols with last year (JLR, funnily enough), and friends, not to mention some of Mrs TB's colleagues - it would be quite a lot more, due to design costs, tooling costs, logistics and inventory and so on.

Which reminds me of the great Trevor Bayliss when he was told by a company that they did not have the facillties or logistical abilities to develop his clockwork radio and he answered "But I made this one in me shed!"

Perhaps that's something 'wrong' that needs addressing - because you're right, it's not just the actual cost of the vehicle to produce - it's the half a billion quid that went before in developing the thing thats part of the list price, too.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 15:28:41
I'd like to know someone at LR, who knows what each vehicle costs to make, right down to individual componentry, what price they could sell a Disco/Velar etc at if you stripped out the lot - equip with manual seats, steel wheels, make a simpler door card, take out the touch screens and the looms that feed it all.
From what I know about car design - my bro, the guy I went on hols with last year (JLR, funnily enough), and friends, not to mention some of Mrs TB's colleagues - it would be quite a lot more, due to design costs, tooling costs, logistics and inventory and so on.

Which reminds me of the great Trevor Bayliss when he was told by a company that they did not have the facillties or logistical abilities to develop his clockwork radio and he answered "But I made this one in me shed!"

Perhaps that's something 'wrong' that needs addressing - because you're right, it's not just the actual cost of the vehicle to produce - it's the half a billion quid that went before in developing the thing thats part of the list price, too.
....and the rest...
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 15:42:34
Thing is.... Land Rover get a right old slagging for moving away from utility vehicles to chelsea tractors, but are any of the other big 4x4 manufacturers any different?  ???

Take Toyota for example.  The early Land Cruisers were the Land Rover Series III rival, and were comparable and capable if basic, off road utility vehicles.  :y

Today's Land Cruiser is a very different beastie and compares more with the Range Rover I'd have thought, but do Toyota get the same brickbats?  :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 11 September 2019, 16:06:58
Yes, although the Disco 3 that I had was 12 years old and a base spec 'S' model, it was still too nice to fling a few sheep in the back and then get in the drivers seat with shitty boots on.  :)

Don't you just, er, do what you need to in the field like the Welsh? You Dorset folks are so upmarket if you're taking them home to wine & dine them first! ;) ;D
That sounds a lot like a relationship :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 11 September 2019, 16:12:56
Yes, although the Disco 3 that I had was 12 years old and a base spec 'S' model, it was still too nice to fling a few sheep in the back and then get in the drivers seat with shitty boots on.  :)

Don't you just, er, do what you need to in the field like the Welsh? You Dorset folks are so upmarket if you're taking them home to wine & dine them first! ;) ;D

Yes we're quite sophisticated really!  :y

Raeturbo is the man to ask about Welsh protocol where sheep are concerned.  :)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 11 September 2019, 16:14:13
Thing is.... Land Rover get a right old slagging for moving away from utility vehicles to chelsea tractors, but are any of the other big 4x4 manufacturers any different?  ???

Take Toyota for example.  The early Land Cruisers were the Land Rover Series III rival, and were comparable and capable if basic, off road utility vehicles.  :y

Today's Land Cruiser is a very different beastie and compares more with the Range Rover I'd have thought, but do Toyota get the same brickbats?  :-\

No, they aren't, which is where the genuinely basic, utilitarian pick-ups come in. Even accepting they are not as good off road, for a significant majority of users, that extra capability is not required.

Where my parents used to live in the Brecon Beacons, all the farmers (pretty much without exception) ran pick-ups with steel wheels, 4wd and interiors that you could hose out.

One of the main reasons for ditching their defenders was the theft risk, either of the whole vehicle or all of the body panels, wheels and exhausts. Because apparently you can disassemble a defender with nothing more than a spare half an hour and an old spoon.  ::)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 11 September 2019, 16:33:40
Thing is.... Land Rover get a right old slagging for moving away from utility vehicles to chelsea tractors, but are any of the other big 4x4 manufacturers any different?  ???

Take Toyota for example.  The early Land Cruisers were the Land Rover Series III rival, and were comparable and capable if basic, off road utility vehicles.  :y

Today's Land Cruiser is a very different beastie and compares more with the Range Rover I'd have thought, but do Toyota get the same brickbats?  :-\

JLR are the ones who haven't moved to Chelsea tractors, they were already there since the days of the Range Rover Classic.  :y

They just had the more utility version to, trouble is it was very time expired and had to be dropped before the new one was available
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 12 September 2019, 21:24:29
Just watched the Hammond walk-around on drivetribe and I'm now not at all keen.

Its been stuffed with loads of new and advanced tech, which looks great when its lolloping up the side of a mountain with some extreme sports bloke in the drivers' seat, but also means it won't work - or not for long at any rate, because its JLR.

So you have a car that has all this wonderful off road ability (which I have no doubt will be class-leading), but in a vehicle that you need a 14year old with a laptop to fix when it inevitably won't start/ fails to proceed. What we've ended up with is basically a virtue-signalling pose-piece, which is about as far away from the original Defender concept as its possible to get.  ::)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 12 September 2019, 21:30:17
Hence my unmilitary comment...
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Sir Tigger QC on 13 September 2019, 00:30:10
It will be interesting to see how this (https://projektgrenadier.com/) develops!  :)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 13 September 2019, 07:33:50
Just watched the Hammond walk-around on drivetribe and I'm now not at all keen.

Its been stuffed with loads of new and advanced tech, which looks great when its lolloping up the side of a mountain with some extreme sports bloke in the drivers' seat, but also means it won't work - or not for long at any rate, because its JLR.

So you have a car that has all this wonderful off road ability (which I have no doubt will be class-leading), but in a vehicle that you need a 14year old with a laptop to fix when it inevitably won't start/ fails to proceed. What we've ended up with is basically a virtue-signalling pose-piece, which is about as far away from the original Defender concept as its possible to get.  ::)

I think you need to concentrate more on your bean counting  ;D ;D ;D

The high spec ones will be riddled with tech, as all makes and models are, interestingly the JLR electronic modules are by far the most reliable in the business (due to a rather challenging internal review process all suppliers have to go through and comply with).

The low spec one, much much less so, certainly no more than on any competitors vehicle.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 13 September 2019, 10:23:12

The high spec ones will be riddled with tech, as all makes and models are, interestingly the JLR electronic modules are by far the most reliable in the business (due to a rather challenging internal review process all suppliers have to go through and comply with).

The low spec one, much much less so, certainly no more than on any competitors vehicle.

If that is truly the case then why is every long term review or customer satisfaction survey littered with reports of "electronic gremlins" and frequent trips to the very lovely customer lounges in the  dealerships?  ::)

I come back again to the point that all this stuff is fine and dandy in theory (and I honestly do understand you flying the flag for your employer) but it just doesn't hold true to real world experiences.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 13 September 2019, 10:45:42

The high spec ones will be riddled with tech, as all makes and models are, interestingly the JLR electronic modules are by far the most reliable in the business (due to a rather challenging internal review process all suppliers have to go through and comply with).

The low spec one, much much less so, certainly no more than on any competitors vehicle.

If that is truly the case then why is every long term review or customer satisfaction survey littered with reports of "electronic gremlins" and frequent trips to the very lovely customer lounges in the  dealerships?  ::)

I come back again to the point that all this stuff is fine and dandy in theory (and I honestly do understand you flying the flag for your employer) but it just doesn't hold true to real world experiences.


If you read the reports, you will note a common theme, that of software gremlins particularly in immature infotainment, electronic hardware failures are close to unheard of.

What is also evident as of this years results is JLR being the most improved on the infotainment front, mainly thanks to a large campaign for software updates and now supporting SOTA.

THE major issue is JLR products bring on fault lights for minor issues when the competitors don't, this creates a perception of poor quality and dealer visits when they are not needed, this is being addressed.

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 10:53:44
Who would have thought that being able to watch Netflix whilst waiting for recovery because the engine has tried to inhale an egr valve was a priority...  ::)
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Doctor Gollum on 13 September 2019, 10:58:14
I would conceded the use of electronics for the engine for efficiency and emissions purposes, and for the drivetrain for driver aids. But does a Defender really need electric windows, climate control and and all singing, all dancing radio?

Surely the 110 doesn't do anything that the Disco Sport already does :-\

All that said, I suppose that the FFRR has transitioned away from its hose out origins, so perhaps the new Defender is the right step in the name of progress...

Can't help but think that less is more though :-\
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 13 September 2019, 11:48:31

If you read the reports, you will note a common theme, that of software gremlins particularly in immature infotainment, electronic hardware failures are close to unheard of.


Taken from the Car and Driver Velar review, the same review acknowledged that an update to the infotainment software meant it was still sluggish, but no longer restarted frequently mid journey - praise be! But also noted another trip to the dealer due to a leaking fuel rail, at 12,000 miles  ::)

Quote
A particularly worrisome unscheduled warranty repair was required at nearly 31,000 miles to fix a broken wire in the Velar's telematics control unit, which immobilized the vehicle in the driveway at a staffer's home. This necessitated a tow to the dealership, which sounds simpler than it turned out to be.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, presumably nothing wrong with the engine and drivetrain of the vehicle, but its bricked because of some ancillary black box is giving duff answers that the car doesn't like. And this is a vehicle that lives a relatively cosseted urban existence, not bouncing up a rutted field in the highlands - or any of the other things the new defender is supposed to be capable of.
Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: Fuse 19 on 13 September 2019, 11:57:31

If you read the reports, you will note a common theme, that of software gremlins particularly in immature infotainment, electronic hardware failures are close to unheard of.


Taken from the Car and Driver Velar review, the same review acknowledged that an update to the infotainment software meant it was still sluggish, but no longer restarted frequently mid journey - praise be! But also noted another trip to the dealer due to a leaking fuel rail, at 12,000 miles  ::)

Quote
A particularly worrisome unscheduled warranty repair was required at nearly 31,000 miles to fix a broken wire in the Velar's telematics control unit, which immobilized the vehicle in the driveway at a staffer's home. This necessitated a tow to the dealership, which sounds simpler than it turned out to be.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, presumably nothing wrong with the engine and drivetrain of the vehicle, but its bricked because of some ancillary black box giving duff answers that the car doesn't like. And this is a vehicle that lives a relatively cosseted urban existence, not bouncing up a rutted field in the highlands - or any of the other things the new defender is supposed to be capable of.

So firstly, there are no wires IN the Telematics control unit (I happen to know the exact details of this one, the root cause was an after market tow bar fit where the TCU supply wire had been hacked to power a towbar module......)

And yes, as per all makes, the Telematics can immobilise the vehicle (for the obvious reasons)

Title: Re: New Defender
Post by: jimmy944 on 13 September 2019, 12:26:30
Clearly reliability is only something that can be demonstrated over time, and if, as you say the electronics are the most robust in the business and the software has been titivated, then I'm sure that will be reflected in the reliability and customer satisfaction ratings.

Personally I won't hold my breath but equally I have every confidence the defender will be a huge commercial success, whether it's ultra reliable, or a complete dog.