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Author Topic: Polybushing  (Read 2594 times)

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laney101

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Polybushing
« on: 07 April 2017, 13:07:12 »

Anyone replaced front top mounts with poly ones.. if so how did you find them once fitted..
And also where did you purchase from..

Second anyone replaced rear beam bushes with poly of a monaro?? If so any downsides were they noisy or ok ?? And again where did you purchase from
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #1 on: 07 April 2017, 13:48:22 »

I had poly bushes on my v70, no vibration on idle but when driving all vibration are tranfered to the cabin as noise, sounds good if you dont want to put a cone filter on for noise

Rear bushes could possibly have noise from the diff
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #2 on: 07 April 2017, 13:49:00 »

Top mounts... Pedders Heavy duty
Rear Subframe... Pedders Monaro poly

Both from Monkfish.

If you're worried about NVH issues, then you won't appreciate the benefits :-X
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #3 on: 07 April 2017, 19:34:25 »

Just don't poly bush the rear wishbone mount.  ::) 

Isn't that right Al?  :o  :P  ;D
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #4 on: 07 April 2017, 19:37:24 »

Just don't poly bush the rear wishbone mount.  ::) 

Isn't that right Al?  :o  :P  ;D
Indeedy, hence my response earlier on a similar post ;)
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laney101

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #5 on: 07 April 2017, 21:32:26 »

You can fit poly and not affect nah I have done so on several vehicles... but certain bushes can affect it hence asking on these particular ones.. cheers shall give monkfish a call
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #6 on: 08 April 2017, 14:08:59 »

Just don't poly bush the rear wishbone mount.  ::) 

Why not?
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #7 on: 08 April 2017, 14:48:51 »

Just don't poly bush the rear wishbone mount.  ::) 

Why not?
Because this...




... will happen.

In my case cresting a slight rise on a fast A road at around 75mph. With no warning.

As there was a suspicion that this could happen, I checked the arms weekly. They had infact been inspected only two days before.

So there you have it kids, just say no. ;)
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Vega

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #8 on: 08 April 2017, 18:54:18 »

What kind of rear poly did you use.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #9 on: 08 April 2017, 19:12:04 »

Powerflex black sierra tca ones... physically an exact fit.
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Nick W

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #10 on: 08 April 2017, 19:40:29 »

Powerflex black sierra tca ones... physically an exact fit.


But as you found out, they're intended to rotate around the axis like the Omega front bush does. So you transfer the flexing action that is normally accommodated by the ball and socket in the correct bush, into a part of the wishbone that isn't designed for it. Failure is then just a matter of time.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #11 on: 08 April 2017, 19:54:03 »

Agreed, although it isn't really a ball and socket... there's a vaguely spherical centre to the bush which is entirely bonded to the rubber bushing... the movement comes from the flex of the rubber rather than the shape of the sleeve :y
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #12 on: 19 September 2017, 11:39:12 »

Fitted these year ago. Just checked wishbones, no defects found.

Didn't really noticed or even wanted any superior benefits, only longer life time for that bushing too. And now it is easier to replace if needed.
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Muroman

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #13 on: 21 September 2017, 09:10:56 »

Just don't poly bush the rear wishbone mount.  ::) 

Why not?
Because this...




... will happen.

In my case cresting a slight rise on a fast A road at around 75mph. With no warning.

As there was a suspicion that this could happen, I checked the arms weekly. They had infact been inspected only two days before.

So there you have it kids, just say no. ;)

Can you provide these pictures?
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #15 on: 21 September 2017, 10:24:22 »

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Why%20polybushing%20front%20wishbone%20rear%20bushes%20is%20bad/IMG_20170408_143728_zpsqw5v2m4d.jpg
Apparently not :-\

Picture in your mind, the ring that the rear bush sits in being snapped off completely causing the arm to bend forward where the front bush is located.

Now imagine this happening as you crest a bump in the road on a slight bend at around 130kmh.

If those cheapy ones haven't snapped your wishbones yet then there are 3 possible reasons...

1. you're simply not driving hard enough.
2. they are too soft to be useful.
3. you haven't found the cracks yet.

At least two of those statements are likely to be true.
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Muroman

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #16 on: 21 September 2017, 11:25:09 »

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y486/05omegav6/Why%20polybushing%20front%20wishbone%20rear%20bushes%20is%20bad/IMG_20170408_143728_zpsqw5v2m4d.jpg
Apparently not :-\

Picture in your mind, the ring that the rear bush sits in being snapped off completely causing the arm to bend forward where the front bush is located.

Now imagine this happening as you crest a bump in the road on a slight bend at around 130kmh.

If those cheapy ones haven't snapped your wishbones yet then there are 3 possible reasons...

1. you're simply not driving hard enough.
2. they are too soft to be useful.
3. you haven't found the cracks yet.

At least two of those statements are likely to be true.

If I imagine it correctly we are now talking about front wishbone's rear mount and it being snapped? That must mean that the bolt also snapped?
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #17 on: 21 September 2017, 11:29:32 »

No, just the wishbone...

The bolt being 10 times thicker than the wishbone ;)
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Muroman

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #18 on: 21 September 2017, 11:38:09 »

No, just the wishbone...

The bolt being 10 times thicker than the wishbone ;)

Wishbone cracked!?
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #19 on: 21 September 2017, 12:23:45 »

Snapped clean through.

Draw a line across the wishbone on the balljoint side of the rear bush circumference. This is the point at which what is effectively four sheets of metal failed.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2017, 12:29:54 by Doctor Gollum »
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #20 on: 21 September 2017, 12:32:51 »

Google found some pics, dunno are these same as original..



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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #21 on: 21 September 2017, 12:42:16 »

Those are Razzos pictures, mine were different bushes but same failure point.
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Muroman

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #22 on: 23 September 2017, 08:53:23 »

Well I have now ordered front and rear bushes for front wishbones... Maybe look into reinforcing the wishbone?
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #23 on: 23 September 2017, 09:01:57 »

Well I have now ordered front and rear bushes for front wishbones... Maybe look into reinforcing the wishbone?
Upto you, but there's only so much you can do to it... Don't forget that it's quite tight to the upright/track rod/subframe.

Ultimately even strengthen I suspect all you will achieve is to snap the arm where the ball joint is attached.

I really wanted it to work, but I won't be fitting those bushes to an Omega any time soon...
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #24 on: 23 September 2017, 14:24:59 »

Well those polys from strongflex wont snap my arms anytime soon.

They let arm to move up and down but prevent arm to move against bolt axis. So there is maybe even less force applied to arm than with original rubber bushing.

It sure will snap if you put some BOM bushing or similar that wont allow arm to move up-down.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #25 on: 23 September 2017, 14:28:10 »

The ones I fitted allowed the arm to move up and down too... Likewise the home made ones Razzo fitted ::)
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #26 on: 23 September 2017, 15:54:07 »

Well, compared to original vs strongflex polys, originals were much harder to get to move up-down.

So really if arms can handle original bushings, there is no problem with those polys I'm talking about.

My opinion is that faulty (shit quality) arms and/or too hard bushes (not allow up-down movement enough) will cause arms to break.

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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #27 on: 23 September 2017, 21:03:31 »

Well, compared to original vs strongflex polys, originals were much harder to get to move up-down.

So really if arms can handle original bushings, there is no problem with those polys I'm talking about.

My opinion is that faulty (shit quality) arms and/or too hard bushes (not allow up-down movement enough) will cause arms to break.
Ok, but consider this...

Are you comparing like for like? I mean, are you comparing a pair of rubber gm bushes (front horizontal and rear vertical ) when comparing resistance of the gm bushes to poly?  Because the front bush has massive resistance, compared to the rearward which barely holds the weight of the arm on its own. This has even caught TB out when he sees wishbones that have been polyed fitted as he thinks there is some sort of magic touch, when actually there is almost no resistantance from gm rears as said (comparatively anyway)

Then place that in the context of suddenly catastrophic wishbone failure under load at speed...

Do ya feel lucky punk? Well do you?
« Last Edit: 23 September 2017, 21:10:30 by Doctor Gollum »
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #28 on: 23 September 2017, 21:38:11 »

I first replaced front bushes to polys.

Then after that, several months later, replaced rear bushes to polys. Here I could compare the up-down movement resistance.

It really does not matter if you have front bushing rubber or poly, because lets say 150000 km on rubber bush has same resistance to up-down movement as polybush have.
Rubber does loose its stiffenes/resistance and then eventually it will tear apart from metal.

And I believe nobody has any problems with front poly + rear original rubber.

Therefore only thing that propably causes arm to break from rear bushing is that rear bush is replaced with too hard bush that wont allow enough movement and/or shitty quality arm that would break anyway with original bushing and enought time and harsh ride.
« Last Edit: 23 September 2017, 21:41:13 by mandula »
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Nick W

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #29 on: 23 September 2017, 22:33:40 »



Therefore only thing that propably causes arm to break from rear bushing is that rear bush is replaced with too hard bush that wont allow enough movement and/or shitty quality arm that would break anyway with original bushing and enought time and harsh ride.


The reason is because the rear poly bushes that have been tried previously are designed to work like the front ones; where the arm rotates around the inner metal sleeve. But the rear bushes work in a different plane - they are more of a joint - and so transfer all of the force(from a heavy car, with large wheels) directly into a part of the wishbone that isn't designed to flex in that way. That is guaranteed to cause exactly the failure that Al's pictures show. Attempting to strengthen the wishbone(which don't fail there when correctly equipped) is a dangerous bodge. The Omega specific bushes mentioned in this thread look much more like the OE rubber ones, and hopefully won't cause such wishbone failures. They're cheap enough that I'm tempted to buy a pair to evaluate whether I am prepared to use them.
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #30 on: 24 September 2017, 08:27:03 »

Delete..
« Last Edit: 24 September 2017, 08:29:56 by mandula »
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #31 on: 24 September 2017, 08:28:31 »



Therefore only thing that propably causes arm to break from rear bushing is that rear bush is replaced with too hard bush that wont allow enough movement and/or shitty quality arm that would break anyway with original bushing and enought time and harsh ride.


The reason is because the rear poly bushes that have been tried previously are designed to work like the front ones; where the arm rotates around the inner metal sleeve. But the rear bushes work in a different plane - they are more of a joint - and so transfer all of the force(from a heavy car, with large wheels) directly into a part of the wishbone that isn't designed to flex in that way. That is guaranteed to cause exactly the failure that Al's pictures show. Attempting to strengthen the wishbone(which don't fail there when correctly equipped) is a dangerous bodge. The Omega specific bushes mentioned in this thread look much more like the OE rubber ones, and hopefully won't cause such wishbone failures. They're cheap enough that I'm tempted to buy a pair to evaluate whether I am prepared to use them.

Just what I'm trying to say.

http://www.strongflex.eu/en/omega-b-94-99/1583-131806a-front-lower-wishbone-rear-bush-sport-5902553518580.html

This is the bush Im using, it is one piece of PUR material and one separate central metal tube and needs to be bushed through arm, it is shaped and shoft enough to operate as a joint.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2017, 08:33:36 by mandula »
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #32 on: 24 September 2017, 08:29:38 »

That picture doesn't give any real/useful detail.

Any pictures of it fitted to the wishbone and also fitted to the car?
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #33 on: 24 September 2017, 08:34:58 »

That picture doesn't give any real/useful detail.

Any pictures of it fitted to the wishbone and also fitted to the car?

I can take a pic next time Im under the car, if I dont find any from internet.
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #34 on: 24 September 2017, 08:50:53 »

That picture doesn't give any real/useful detail.

Any pictures of it fitted to the wishbone and also fitted to the car?

I can take a pic next time Im under the car, if I dont find any from internet.
It isn't clear from that picture how the arm is supported... looks like a void around the centre which allows the arm movement. This would imply that the arm isn't supported against any horizontal shocks or loads such as kerbs/emergency braking. Also, if it relies on the wider top and bottom circumferences to prevent vertical movement over the rear bolt, then it will be too tight to allow the arm to pivot without stressing it. Likewise if it uses the chamfer to support the ash against horizontal loading :-\
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #35 on: 24 September 2017, 09:01:10 »

If the arm is adequately supported to be driven with control, then it will stress the arm to breaking point.

If it isn't adequately support in order to allow normal arm movement, then from its shape I would suggest that the arm will eventually destroy the bush... resulting in the arm becoming unsupported. What happens when this occurs depends on speed/cornering/suspension loadings but expect significant damage as control vanishes.

I was lucky with mine. The brakes were perfectly balanced and the top mount absorbed the lateral loading from the weight and momentum of the car riding over the failed arm. The road was also fortunately empty as I used both lanes to stop.

How many miles/km have you done on your bushes and have you removed them to inspect them? Those are pictures I would also like to see...
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #36 on: 24 September 2017, 10:12:05 »

I had my Strongflex rear bushes fitted yesterday because the originals were fubar. I already had the Powerflex front ones and with both front and rear fitted I must say it's a huge difference! I had a long drive back home from my mechanic's place and it was a lot better than the drive there I must say. My mechanic also has had poly's front & rear for three years and has never had any issues with them. And he drives a lot faster than I ever do, ergo harder braking....
I'll try and get some pics up later.
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #37 on: 25 September 2017, 05:42:32 »

I think Doctor Gollum is seeking problems where there is not any.

- Bush is perfectly supported for any forces that are directed to it. It is one mold piece and needed to be forced through arm and is very tight fit to arm. Will not pop off, because of tight fit to arm and also flanges of attaching points are holding polybush in place.

- On emergency braking or cornering, there is more bushing material (cross section area) taking the force than on original rubber bush. I can not think any force directed to arm that original rubber bushing could handle but this polybush could not. It is more likely that rubber bush would tear up before this polybush.

- Movement of arm is ensured, because material is soft enough and bushing is shaped to allow movement. This is the thing that will break the arm if movement is prevented because of too hard material and/or shape of bushing. Nothing else, if arm is as good quality as it should.

- Bushing is molded to one piece PUR so it will not tear apart in any circumstances and also polybushes are proven to be more durable than rubber bushes. More likely arm will destroy original rubber bushing than poly bushing.

- I've seen old rear rubber bushing, teared little bit as it normally does when it ages. That is much more security risk that this polybushing. And people are driving with bad condition rubber bushes many thousands of kilometers still with no arms to tear apart themselves or bushing.

I've been driven with this current setting about 25000 km. Last MOT was two months ago with no notes and week ago I was under the car checking for idler arm condition and checked arms (in place) but it was possible to see that both arms were OK (no cracks or bends).

I do like to drive corners fast (because current settings allow this with no trouble) and also I often need to drive un-coated roads (gravel roads) with big potholes so I could say arms are driven in very harsh conditions and i believe something would been shoving by now if there's any problems with that rear polybushings.
« Last Edit: 25 September 2017, 05:58:37 by mandula »
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #38 on: 25 September 2017, 05:58:50 »

Double deleted.
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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #39 on: 01 October 2017, 22:46:15 »

Both rear and front bushings installed to wishbone. Strongflex yellow (sport)
Didn't hammer or heat while taking old ones off only used saw. Wishbones were in good condition as changed just last year.

Result was good, steering changed to more precise. We'll see in future what happens.
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Vega

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #40 on: 02 October 2017, 11:06:01 »

I am running them now for about 15.000 Km.

Powerflex at the front.
Strongflex at the rear.

No problems so far, not even on the German highways  ;D or the Italian Dolomites.  :)
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B-Buster

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #41 on: 02 October 2017, 23:21:45 »

Like Vega I am running the Powerflex + Strongflex Yellow combination and so far no complaints. I like the design of the Strongflex better as these don't have the metal ring, so I assume it does not stress the wishbone as much as some of the other designs I have seen.

From Powerflex front bushings + new OEM rear bushings (for +/- 30k km's) to the current setup (+/- 8k km's) has proven to be a very great upgrade. The car feels much more stable in corners and especially at roundabouts the handling is so much better. Also with the Brembo brakes it is also more stable if those are put to the test.

I would advice to be smart with the wishbones that are being used, I've seen PU mods being put in pretty rusty arms.. not the best idea.
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Andy A

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #42 on: 11 May 2018, 19:01:28 »

Both rear and front bushings installed to wishbone. Strongflex yellow (sport)
Didn't hammer or heat while taking old ones off only used saw. Wishbones were in good condition as changed just last year.

Result was good, steering changed to more precise. We'll see in future what happens.

What wishbone make did you put in?
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #43 on: 14 May 2018, 06:43:50 »

Last week replaced strut mounts + bearings and ball joints so was able to check wishbones. No cracks or other faults found, all good with both front and rear polybushings fitted.
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Andy A

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #44 on: 14 May 2018, 09:13:53 »

Last week replaced strut mounts + bearings and ball joints so was able to check wishbones. No cracks or other faults found, all good with both front and rear polybushings fitted.

Good to here that all is still good.  :y How long have you had them fitted?

Is this still correct, you have Powerflex in the front and Strongflex yellow for the back bush of the wishbone?

What make of wishbone did you use?

Thanks
« Last Edit: 14 May 2018, 09:18:43 by Andy A »
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106pete

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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #46 on: 14 May 2018, 09:41:40 »

Last week replaced strut mounts + bearings and ball joints so was able to check wishbones. No cracks or other faults found, all good with both front and rear polybushings fitted.

Good to here that all is still good.  :y How long have you had them fitted?

Is this still correct, you have Powerflex in the front and Strongflex yellow for the back bush of the wishbone?

What make of wishbone did you use?

Thanks

I fitted first Powerflex to front bush (if I remember correclty, over 2 years ago).
Then fitted Strongflex to rear bush over 1.5 years ago and (again if I remember correctly) near that time replaced front polys to Strongflex yellow ones that are a bit stiffer than Powerflex purples (90 ShA vs 80 ShA).

So now I have both front and rear bushes Strongflex yellows fitted.

My wishbones were replaced about 5 years ago when I purchased my car, job was done by local garage and I dont know what brand they used.
About 50 euros each.
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Nick W

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #47 on: 14 May 2018, 09:42:52 »

That's an excellent example of why that type of poly bush isn't suitable for the application: you're moving the flex from the part that is designed to accommodate it, into one that isn't. And making a metal part work as a hinge is always going to end badly for the part.


Reinforcing it like that has not solved the problem, but is just reducing the symptom of it. On a racecar which is(or at least ought to be) subject to regular, frequent, detailed inspections that's just one the necessary compromises that might solve another problem. But for our sort of usage? Absolutely not for me.
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #48 on: 14 May 2018, 11:11:35 »

Did anyone see nick bonds solution? https://www.facebook.com/TheBodgeShop/posts/1774395092587610
https://www.facebook.com/TheBodgeShop/posts/1774199165940536:0

It looks rusty/dirty inside that bushing.

What I've read, poly bushing binding can cause problems like that when there is no grease or not suitable grease used (some may consider it as installation fault).

I could easily move my wishbones up and down with very little friction and no noise coming from bushings when I removed struts out of the way. I bet there is much more resistance with regular rubber bushings when comparing movement against (properly installed) poly bushings.

So far I can say that these bushes are not moving the flex from the part that is designed to accommodate it, but are even making it easier to flex.
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Andy A

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #49 on: 14 May 2018, 12:24:14 »

Did anyone see nick bonds solution? https://www.facebook.com/TheBodgeShop/posts/1774395092587610
https://www.facebook.com/TheBodgeShop/posts/1774199165940536:0

It looks rusty/dirty inside that bushing.

What I've read, poly bushing binding can cause problems like that when there is no grease or not suitable grease used (some may consider it as installation fault).

I could easily move my wishbones up and down with very little friction and no noise coming from bushings when I removed struts out of the way. I bet there is much more resistance with regular rubber bushings when comparing movement against (properly installed) poly bushings.

So far I can say that these bushes are not moving the flex from the part that is designed to accommodate it, but are even making it easier to flex.

What grease did you use?

Did you find any difference after changing the front bush from Powerflex to Strongflex?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with just the front poly bushed changed and rear left standard?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with both the front and rear poly bushed poly bushed?

Thanks
« Last Edit: 14 May 2018, 12:34:52 by Andy A »
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #50 on: 14 May 2018, 13:30:13 »


What grease did you use?

Did you find any difference after changing the front bush from Powerflex to Strongflex?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with just the front poly bushed changed and rear left standard?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with both the front and rear poly bushed poly bushed?

Thanks

I used the grease that came with Strongflex bushes. I used it plenty to all surfaces where metal to bush contacted.

I found some improvement how steering and handling felt when replaced front bush from Powerflex to Strongflex because different in stiffness. It felt a bit more steady to drive overall.
But I must say that Strongflex was better design. There was grid groove where centre metal tube is inserted. This helps greasing it better. At Powerflex there was nothing, only flat surface that wont hold any grease on it when you push that centre tube in place.

I had pretty new rubber bushings before I fitted polys, so I think there was not so much noticeable difference that I wished for. Maybe when cornering difference between rubber and polys could be noticed most. And of course in time, when rubber loosen up polys show why they are better.

Same thing with rear bushing. I did not even wanted any improvement for steering and handling when I changed rear bushing, all I wanted was not to worry about rubber bushes to wear out.
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Andy A

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #51 on: 14 May 2018, 14:19:08 »


What grease did you use?

Did you find any difference after changing the front bush from Powerflex to Strongflex?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with just the front poly bushed changed and rear left standard?

What improvement did it have on steering and handling with both the front and rear poly bushed poly bushed?

Thanks

I used the grease that came with Strongflex bushes. I used it plenty to all surfaces where metal to bush contacted.

I found some improvement how steering and handling felt when replaced front bush from Powerflex to Strongflex because different in stiffness. It felt a bit more steady to drive overall.
But I must say that Strongflex was better design. There was grid groove where centre metal tube is inserted. This helps greasing it better. At Powerflex there was nothing, only flat surface that wont hold any grease on it when you push that centre tube in place.

I had pretty new rubber bushings before I fitted polys, so I think there was not so much noticeable difference that I wished for. Maybe when cornering difference between rubber and polys could be noticed most. And of course in time, when rubber loosen up polys show why they are better.

Same thing with rear bushing. I did not even wanted any improvement for steering and handling when I changed rear bushing, all I wanted was not to worry about rubber bushes to wear out.

Would you say that the yellow Strongflex bushes are the same stiffness as the Powerflex ones or do you think the red would be a better match? 
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mandula

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Re: Polybushing
« Reply #52 on: 14 May 2018, 18:16:00 »

https://www.strongflex.eu/en/content/6-red-or-yellow

https://www.powerflex.co.uk/road-series/product-details/Powerflex+Material+Shore+Demonstrator+/11710.html

Red Strongflex and purple Powerflex have same hardness 80 ShA. From first above links it says that it is a similar hardness as rubber bush would have.

For the price of one purple Powerflex you can buy one red and one yellow Strongflex to compare  :P
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