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[omega2018]

after about 20 minutes happy driving the engine just stopped, i glided to a stop and re-started it, fine then 5 minutes later same again. And again.  No pedal trick codes or eml light either time.   will put my cheap scanner on it tomorrow but any ideas?  doesn't seem similar to the crank sensor that went 12,000 miles ago. cam sensor perhaps?  or oil in the plugs?  half tank of petrol.  car now done 102K. 

[Migv6 le Frog Fan]

Sounds very similar to what happened to mine a couple of months ago. It was the crank sensor.

[Nick W]

Disconnect the MAF sensor and see if that helps. The EML will be on, but it will go out once the MAF is reconnected

[omega2018]

Sounds very similar to what happened to mine a couple of months ago. It was the crank sensor.

thanks could be that but when mine went before there was  a warning sign - failure to start on first turn about 1 in 10 goes, then when it went it was an hour after I had parked the car from a long run  and it would not fire at all.  then another hour later, with the recovery truck attending, it fired straight away.  this time it has different symptoms. 

only slightly out of the ordinary thing today was hot weather, air con on full and start stop traffic driving before it died , temperature gauge was a bit high - will try unplugging MAF but how long to run without it connected?

[Doctor Gollum]

Until you plug it back in

[omega2018]

forgot to mention the engine was at low revs (<2000) each time it died so I think so MAF could be the problem.

[omega2018]

plugged in the cheapo elm scanner today, no error codes no problems showing but more data than i know what to do with.  anything i should look for?  air flow looks ok, increases with revs as you'd expect. unable to reproduce stall problem but this was just testing while stationary:

OBD-II Diagnostic Report
     
   Phone:
   Fax:
   Email:
   Internet:
Customer Address    Vehicle Info
   Make:
   Model:
   Year:
   Registration-No:
Vehicle Information (Mode 09)
Description   Count
System Status (Mode 01)
Description      
OBD Type       
     OBD Type    EOBD    
Trouble Codes       
     MIL Status    Off    
     Number of DTCs    0    
Continuous Monitoring tests       
     Misfire    Supported    Complete
     Fuel System    Supported    Complete
     Comprehensive Components    Supported    Complete
non-Continuous Monitoring tests       
     Catalyst    Supported    Complete
     Heated Catalyst    Not Supported    
     Evaporative System    Not Supported    
     Secondary Air System    Not Supported    
     A/C System Refrigerant    Not Supported    
     Oxygen Sensor    Supported    Complete
     Oxygen Sensor Heater    Supported    Complete
     EGR System    Not Supported    
Fuel System Status       
     Fuel System 1 Status    closed loop    
     Fuel System 2 Status    closed loop    
Diagnostic Trouble Codes (Mode 03, 07, 0A)
Description
Stored Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 03)
     No Trouble Codes
Pending Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 07)
     No Trouble Codes
Permanent Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) (Mode 0A)
     No Trouble Codes
Freeze Frame Data (Mode 02)
Description   Value   Units
Location of Oxygen Sensors
Location of Oxygen Sensors   State
Bank 1 - Sensor 1    Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 2    Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 3    Not Present
Bank 1 - Sensor 4    Not Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 1    Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 2    Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 3    Not Present
Bank 2 - Sensor 4    Not Present
Oxygen Sensor Test Results (Mode 05)
Description   Value   Min   Max   Units   Result
Monitored Test Results (Mode 06)
Description   Value   Min   Max   Units   Result
TID $01, CID $05 - Values defined by manufacturer    55       140       Pass
TID $01, CID $06 - Values defined by manufacturer    56       140       Pass
Live Data (Mode 01)
   Description   Value   Units   Min   Average   Max
   03 - Fuel System Status                
        Fuel System 1    closed loop    -    2.00    2.00    2.00
        Fuel System 2    closed loop    -    2.00    2.00    2.00
   04 - Calculated Load Value    2    %    2.35    2.35    2.35
   05 - Engine Coolant Temperature    208    °F    208.40    208.40    208.40
   06 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1    -1.6    %    -1.56    0.65    3.13
   07 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1    1.6    %    1.56    1.56    1.56
   08 - Short Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2    -3.1    %    -3.13    -3.13    -3.13
   09 - Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2    0.8    %    0.78    0.78    0.78
   0C - Engine RPM    665    rpm    643.75    655.25    664.75
   0D - Vehicle Speed    0    mph    0.00    0.00    0.00
   0E - Ignition Timing Advance for #1 Cylinder    2    °    2.00    3.20    4.50
   0F - Intake Air Temperature    136.40    °F    136.40    136.40    136.40
   10 - Air Flow Rate    0.46    lb/min    0.46    0.46    0.46
   11 - Absolute Throttle Position    2.0    %    1.96    1.96    1.96
   14 - Bank 1 - Sensor 1                
        Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage    0.110    V    0.09    0.19    0.51
        Short Term Fuel Trim    -0.8    %    -0.78    0.47    1.56
   15 - Bank 1 - Sensor 2                
        Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage    0.710    V    0.60    0.67    0.71
        Short Term Fuel Trim    99.2    %    99.21    99.21    99.21
   18 - Bank 2 - Sensor 1                
        Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage    0.120    V    0.09    0.23    0.71
        Short Term Fuel Trim    -0.8    %    -1.56    0.00    1.56
   19 - Bank 2 - Sensor 2                
        Oxygen Sensor Output Voltage    0.690    V    0.59    0.66    0.71
        Short Term Fuel Trim    99.2    %    99.21    99.21    99.21
   21 - Distance Travelled While MIL is Activated    0    miles    0.00    0.00    0.00

[TheBoy]

Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up

[Andy H]

Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up

10 - Air Flow Rate    0.46    lb/min    0.46    0.46    0.46

about 12.5 kg/hr if my maths is up to scratch (x 60min / 2.2 lb/kg)

[omega2018]

well spotted and good maths
                          min   avg    max
 0.46    lb/min    0.46    0.46    0.46

here are the Nov 2013 figures, same engine at 78K miles (currently 102K)
                         
0.40    lb/min    0.36    0.38    0.43
0.36    lb/min    0.36    0.37    0.40
0.36    lb/min    0.36    0.37    0.40

All figures would have been at idle I think.  So up a bit from 2013, maybe the colder air in november?  i have some graphs from 2013 for a run I did , 13 variables (fuel trim, ign timing, oxy sensor etc..) but missing air flow unfortunately.  as i said though this time the air flow seemed to rise with revs as you would expect.

Just took the MAF out, looks clean but will spray with contact cleaner.  tried to remove the actual sensor from the large tube, i have some security bits to undo the poled screws but they are 5 sided not the usual 6 so can't undo them .

[TheBoy]

but will spray with contact cleaner

DONT!!!

[TheBoy]

Before you unplug, can you get a MAF reading (ideally in kg/hr) at idle, and post up

10 - Air Flow Rate    0.46    lb/min    0.46    0.46    0.46

about 12.5 kg/hr if my maths is up to scratch (x 60min / 2.2 lb/kg)

Seems about right for a smaller variant v6


So, I'd be suspicious of crank sensor in this case

[omega2018]

just took it for a 28 mile motorway run after the MAF clean, no problems in fact mpg looks slightly better but on return I left it idling, lumpily, and it stalled. twice.  plus now an error code at last

PO305 cylinder 5 misfire on my scanner and on the pedal trick 2 codes:

P0300 random misfire and P0305 cylinder 5 misfire. 

i suspect MFL might cause that but i need to check the plug wells for oil leaks, looks like i have to undo the cover on the fl, before it was just pull the plug leads.

doesn't feel the same as the last crank sensor failure, it always seems to start ok.

[Doctor Gollum]

Two bolts frees the cable tray and two more frees the coilpack... hardly difficult

All six plugs can be changed in half an hour, including a cuppa assuming of course that the plug wells aren't full of oil/water

[omega2018]

Two bolts frees the cable tray and two more frees the coilpack... hardly difficult

its not difficult but its a lot more hassle than the 5 secs it takes on a pfl and more than you describe above .  Fl - undo two bolts, get two slightly larger bolts and screw them what looks like the thread of the ones you have just removed, pull on both bolts to half pull out the coil pack, now try and unplug the coil connector which is fiddly you have to press a latch you can't see, now unclip the two cooling pipes in two locations and push the pipes out of the way, now undo two bolts to try and move the fuel pipes which don't move anyway, now try and manoeuvre out the coil pack. Done.  but now you have to replace.  and that's just the drivers side without having to move a cable tray.

anyway i have now checked the drivers side, cylinder plug 1 is bone dry, 3 and 5 had a tiny amount of oil at the bottom, maybe 1/4 teaspoon or less.  the rubbers look fine.  surely not enough to cause a misfire is it, not to mention the stalling problem?

I cleaned out the oil and connectors , and slightly upped the torque on all the cam gasket bolts from 8 to 9nm (two are pigs to get at).   i don';t have the gaskets or the will to replace them at the moment but i will check it again later.