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Author Topic: Next Thursday evening  (Read 274 times)

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BazaJT

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Next Thursday evening
« on: 15 September 2018, 18:34:51 »

On Channel 5 at 8pm a new series of six programmes under the title Great British Ships begins.First in series is about H.M.S. Victory.I shall definitely be watching that one :y Hopefully they'll be decent serious programmes and not some wishy washy dumbed down affair.
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kingshott50

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #1 on: 15 September 2018, 19:57:07 »

Right up my street ,i will be watching thanks for the heads up ,i was in the merchant navy in the 70s&80s 👍
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #2 on: 15 September 2018, 20:01:41 »

Yes, one to watch that's for sure :y :y
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BazaJT

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #3 on: 21 September 2018, 07:49:59 »

Rather disappointed in that.Obviously she'll always be linked with Nelson and Trafalgar but there was rather more about those than there was about the ship herself which for me would have made it a better programme.
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tunnie

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #4 on: 21 September 2018, 09:37:31 »

I'm never impressed by Channel 5's stuff really, not sure if it's the adverts meaning it can only be ~40 mins. But they never really go into much detail into any of their docs and just like a brief overview.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #5 on: 21 September 2018, 13:09:58 »

Rather disappointed in that.Obviously she'll always be linked with Nelson and Trafalgar but there was rather more about those than there was about the ship herself which for me would have made it a better programme.

Yes, it was a simple, rather glossy production that skimmed the surface of the full story of the battle; rather like a glossy magazine compared to a book with a detailed historical account. It failed to give the full details that historians must have. But what can be expected for a production that lasted just 1 hour.

One serious omission for me, that was a crucial fact of the Battle, was in explaining the speed of the (Professional) Royal Navy gunners.  Yes it was said they could fire their cannon at a rate 4/5 times faster than the (part time) gunners of the combined fleet, due to their continual practice that was a result of always being at sea whilst the combined fleet crews spent far more time moored up in harbour. But there was no mention of the fact that the Royal Navy cannon of the likes of Victory and the other First, Second and Third Raters of the fleet, were equipped with flintlock firing mechanisms that resulted in the gunners being able to fire instantaneously, and not waiting for a burning fuse, as employed still by the French and Spanish, to ignite the powder.  Accuracy and rate of fire was substantially improved by this, and added to the true professionalism of the well trained Royal Navy gunners, making all the difference.  That is why (I believe not mentioned in the programme) by the end of the Battle 18 combined fleet ships had been forced to surrender (no RN ship did so), with one other blowing up, with in total of over 4,000 killed, compared to 448 RN deaths. Some combined fleet ships were witnessed to have 3-400 bodies piled up on their decks. Nelson had aimed to overcome 20 combined fleet ships before the end of the Battle, so he was almost spot on with his prediction. So, in all, the programme failed to emphasise how the Royal Navy proved their superiority and how advanced the whole service was.  They were many decades ahead of the French and Spanish in their ships and how they used professional sailors who often started their service as boys. That is why Trafalgar was so important and proved the long term superiority of the whole Royal Navy fleet around the World.

For anyone who wants to research the Battle, I would highly recommend this book  Pocock. T (Editor) Trafalgar The Folio Society (2005).  This is a compilation of numerous prime eye witness accounts who were there on the 21st October 1805, and is one of the best books on the Battle I have read. ;)
« Last Edit: 21 September 2018, 13:15:17 by Lizzie Zoom »
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BazaJT

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #6 on: 21 September 2018, 19:02:03 »

They did mention the human casualties of Trafalgar but not the number of ships taken-many subsequently lost to the gales that followed shortly after the battle ended.The programme did more or less begin with an inaccuracy when it was stated that H.M.S. Victory won the battle of Trafalgar ??? No she didn't she was one of a fleet of ships that won it.As I said though my main gripe was[that for a programme titled Great British Ships]not much was mentioned of her long career apart from a very brief mention of he being the flagship of Sir John Jervis[later Earl St.Vincent] at the battle of Cape St.Vincent it then centred upon Nelson and Trafalgar,where they made another error by stating that Nelson made a bee-line for Bucentaure[flagship of the combined fleet]yes Nelson was looking for just that vessel but it was only at basically the last moment that she was recognised and then Victory made for her breaking the line directly aft of her and crossed the bows of Redoubtable.When upon doing so Victory let loose her broadside[some guns double shotted and some even treble shotted]straight through the stern galleries of Bucentaure before hauling round to lie alongside Redoubtable.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #7 on: 21 September 2018, 21:34:16 »

What I didn't hear during the programme was the fact that Vice Admiral Lord Collingwood on HMS Royal Soveriegn leading the rear, second column of the fleet was the first ship to go into action, after the French ships commenced fire on the British at about 1130 hours. Royal Soveriegn was the first RN ship to cut through the rear of the combined fleet at about 1200, targeting the huge 112 gun Santa Ana, flagship of the Spanish Rear Admiral Alava as planned by Nelson. This caused the first heavy casualties within the combined fleet.  Nelson in HMS Victory was in action some 20 minutes after Collingwood commenced his fight, with the combined fleet firing on Victory at 1221. The huge, 140 gun, Santissima Trinidad, was the target that Nelson was aiming for, as Baza stated, but due to the light wind blowing the British fleet into battle, combined with the closing up of the ships to the flagships stern, Victory was sent to the stern of the 80 gun Bucentaure flagship of the French Admiral Villeneuve .  As Baza stated, terrible carnage followed on Bucentaure as Victory fired full broadsides, that included 32 pounder cannons, not just the 18 pounders quoted in the programme,  through the ship from stern to bow, taking out everything in between, cutting up hundreds of men and women (powder monkeys, and general helpers).

Indeed, it was not just HMS Victory that won the battle; all men and ships of the Royal Navy present that day achieved the victory.  However, one ship is outstanding on the day; HMS Temeraire, now known as "The Fighting Temeraire", and the subject of a famous painting by Turner.  She was of 98 guns and followed Victory into battle, giving covering fire to the flagship and soaking up a great amount of shot intended for Victory, whilst continually firing devasting broadsides into the enemy.  Indeed, at one stage she had a French ship on one side of her and a Spanish ship on the other, but it was her who defeated both, striking their national colours.  ;)
« Last Edit: 21 September 2018, 21:40:07 by Lizzie Zoom »
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BazaJT

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #8 on: 22 September 2018, 18:35:30 »

The Victory we know today is officially the sixth ship to bear the name[although I believe there's only a few feet of her keel that is part of the ship that was launched with the rest being replaced during various refits/restorations] Victory#1 was part of the Elizabethan Navy Royal[as it was then known]and part of the fleet that saw action against the Spanish armada under the command of John Hawkins-a cousin of Sir Francis Drake-later it was broken for scrap.Victory#2 was in fact a re-named ship previously known as Royal James,later paid off and laid up awaiting her fate she was then subject of a huge refit[when the need for ships arose once more]it was deemed the refit and changes warranted her being classed as a new ship and thus re-launched to become Victory#3,again subsequently broken for scrap.Victory#4 came along and after some while refitted emerging as the Royal George a name she carried for about a year before being once more named Victory-thus becoming #5 it was this ship that became subject of a programme some while ago[her remains having been found]about her running onto rocks during a storm and foundering with the loss of all hands.Finally came Victory#6 that everyone knows and unless at some point she is de-commissioned then she will be the last to carry the name.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Next Thursday evening
« Reply #9 on: 22 September 2018, 18:47:17 »

The Victory we know today is officially the sixth ship to bear the name[although I believe there's only a few feet of her keel that is part of the ship that was launched with the rest being replaced during various refits/restorations] Victory#1 was part of the Elizabethan Navy Royal[as it was then known]and part of the fleet that saw action against the Spanish armada under the command of John Hawkins-a cousin of Sir Francis Drake-later it was broken for scrap.Victory#2 was in fact a re-named ship previously known as Royal James,later paid off and laid up awaiting her fate she was then subject of a huge refit[when the need for ships arose once more]it was deemed the refit and changes warranted her being classed as a new ship and thus re-launched to become Victory#3,again subsequently broken for scrap.Victory#4 came along and after some while refitted emerging as the Royal George a name she carried for about a year before being once more named Victory-thus becoming #5 it was this ship that became subject of a programme some while ago[her remains having been found]about her running onto rocks during a storm and foundering with the loss of all hands.Finally came Victory#6 that everyone knows and unless at some point she is de-commissioned then she will be the last to carry the name.

Great info there Baza :y :y

Yes, Victory#5 was lost and no one knew exactly where until the divers featured in that programme found her remains :D
« Last Edit: 22 September 2018, 18:49:26 by Lizzie Zoom »
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