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Author Topic: Misfire  (Read 1353 times)

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Ray Austin

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Misfire
« on: 03 February 2018, 17:08:51 »

Over the last couple of weeks our 2.2 diesel omega (2002) has become un-driveable and the exhaust emission light has come on. This is only when my wife has been driving it so she has lost confidence in the car she called the AA the first time it played up she said it would not start at all I got to the car before the AA and was able to drive it the mile home but the AA still came to our home  and checked for fault codes which there were done.

It ran fine when I was driving blamed her driving but it finally did it when I was driving it misfired a couple of time the warning light came on for a few seconds then it seemed to settle down again drove fine.

What could be causing the problem?
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Bigron

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #1 on: 03 February 2018, 17:25:03 »

This may be a silly question, but where do you buy your Derv?

Ron.
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #2 on: 04 February 2018, 10:15:37 »

If EML comes on, there should be a code...
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #3 on: 04 February 2018, 13:13:07 »

It finally died with me driving the car left home it hesitated a couple of time then died then would not restart it then restarted went a couple of hundred yards then dies again and got it restarted did that 3 times until it completely wont start at all. Left for about 20 minutes while waiting for AA before they came got it to start and took it the 400 yards back home. When it was playing up it was very smokey.

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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #4 on: 04 February 2018, 15:56:40 »

Think it sorted now this is the report from the AA.

Patrol found the following fault code/s:System : Engine control - 73L / Diesel EDC 15C4P1220 - Unknown fault. Error Message : .P1345 - Unknown fault. Error Message : .find crank sensor multiplug had water ingress, clean, ok.

Water in the multiplug for the crankshaft sensor hope it fixed now.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #5 on: 19 February 2018, 18:40:41 »

Well it run fine for 2 weeks now has died completely. The codes have been read and there are 2 codes  P1220 START OF INJECTOR CONTROL. P1345 ROTARY ANGLE SENSOR.

The aa say the fuel pump gone.
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addy

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #6 on: 19 February 2018, 18:45:54 »

Sorry to hear about your bad luck.  I hope you manage to sort it.  My 2.2 petrol kept missfiring and playing up, I changed cam and crankshaft sensors, coil pack and new plugs. It ran great for a while but started playing up again, my error code again was for the camshaft sensor. I lost all confidence in it as unknown when it would play up, so have bit the bullet and scrapped it, got a 2.6 now.
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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #7 on: 19 February 2018, 20:02:25 »

Well it run fine for 2 weeks now has died completely. The codes have been read and there are 2 codes  P1220 START OF INJECTOR CONTROL. P1345 ROTARY ANGLE SENSOR.

The aa say the fuel pump gone.

Not necessarily.

Something in the back of my memory says fuel flow problem which is caused by a blockage due to crud at the tank pick up. You can disconnect the pipes to the fuel chamber under the back seat and blow back down them. You should hear the air bubbling in the tank. As these pipes are prone to rust there's a source for blockage along with any sediment that might have been picked up if the tank ran a little low.



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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #8 on: 19 February 2018, 21:41:16 »

Is there a pump in the fuel tank or does it rely on the pump on the engine to draw fuel from the tank.

Taken up the cover in the boot to expose the fuel tank 2 pipes going to it but will look again the daylight.

Its a shame to scrap the car but not going a spend a grand on it nor worth for a car that 16 years old.
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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #9 on: 20 February 2018, 08:34:34 »

There is a pump there, and I think there may be an additional strainer to stop bigger bits of crud from passing through the pump. Not certain about this second bit as I've never had to take mine apart.
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henryd

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #10 on: 20 February 2018, 11:18:25 »

I'm pretty sure the Dti does not have an intank fuel pump,fuel is drawn by the main pump at the engine :y
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #11 on: 20 February 2018, 12:28:31 »

I'm pretty sure the Dti does not have an intank fuel pump,fuel is drawn by the main pump at the engine :y

I've just dropped the tank on a DTI and sure looks like there is a pump
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #12 on: 20 February 2018, 12:59:33 »

I'm pretty sure the Dti does not have an intank fuel pump,fuel is drawn by the main pump at the engine :y

I've just dropped the tank on a DTI and sure looks like there is a pump

I'm sure Fuse 19 will confirm :y
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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #13 on: 20 February 2018, 16:58:57 »

Sorry, my mistake, I was working off the parts catalogue - mine is currently not in a position to be dismantled to check. 2.5 DTi has a pump, 2.2 DTi does not. but there should still be a strainer assembly to get blocked and pipes to and from the tank as well.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #14 on: 20 February 2018, 20:50:02 »

Tried to start it this morning just turned over came home from work mid afternoon and got it to start left it ticking over when we rang a garage we have used in the past drove it the 2 miles to them with no problem they are now going to see if they think its the pump has gone as well.

Will scrap it if it is the pump, only cost us 240 5 years ago 16 years old now with 140,000 on the clock. :'(
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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #15 on: 21 February 2018, 08:43:18 »

Being positive, if the pump unit had failed mechanically it most likely wouldn't work at all. If the failure is electrical it could be intermittent but can be fixed by a diesel pump/Bosch specialist, there was a recent thread with this type of problem. Often DTis are scrapped with pump failure which is no more than a broken wire or soldered joint.

Even so, repair is likely to be way less expensive than replacement. My bet is still a flow problem with the fault at the back end of the car rather than the front.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #16 on: 22 February 2018, 18:13:16 »

Car has been with garage for 2 days they cant find anything wrong with it starts fine. So took it out to try and get it to play-up did about 6 miles and just as we got on the bypass it died got it a layby left it 10 minutes got it to the next island it  missed a few times but did not want it to go onto the island in case it died again and caused traffic chaos. Left it 20 minutes got it restarted  and drove back to garage.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #17 on: 22 February 2018, 18:51:24 »

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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #18 on: 22 February 2018, 20:08:13 »

Happy to bow to the wisdom of others but that really sounds like fuel starvation to me. The pump controls the delivery of the fuel and engine timing and you have both. I seems to me that it misfires after you rev it which is what makes me think starvation. I assume the mechanics have checked the fuel pipes and strainer at the tank end and pronounced them all clean and free from debris? If not can I suggest they look there, if so what about checking fuel pressure at the injectors. What about reading live data to rule out sensor issues as you are driving along. All simple stuff really and a cheap fix if that's where the problem is.

The few instances of pump failure I have encountered are just that, failure.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #19 on: 01 March 2018, 14:31:06 »

It was with the garage for a week, they could not really find anything wrong with it they moved the crankshaft sensor cable as it was rubbing up against a block and a water hose. They were saying that they had a corsa in that had a misfire and they came to the conclusion that it was the way the cable was routed that it was picking up a false reading. They drove it around and could not get it to misfire at all. We collected it put some more diesel in it and as we drove away it played up for a couple of seconds then settled down. At home took out the sender unit in the fuel tank and cleaned out the filter which had some bits in it but it was not to bad.

Just have to try it now that the problem with intermittent faults. The garage have not charged us but we have said we will come to some arrangement if it is solved.
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Automaticman

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #20 on: 01 March 2018, 19:53:07 »

I have a similar tedious fault on my 306 Roadster, most vexing  :-\
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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #21 on: 01 March 2018, 20:52:08 »

It was with the garage for a week, they could not really find anything wrong with it they moved the crankshaft sensor cable as it was rubbing up against a block and a water hose. They were saying that they had a corsa in that had a misfire and they came to the conclusion that it was the way the cable was routed that it was picking up a false reading. They drove it around and could not get it to misfire at all. We collected it put some more diesel in it and as we drove away it played up for a couple of seconds then settled down. At home took out the sender unit in the fuel tank and cleaned out the filter which had some bits in it but it was not to bad.

Just have to try it now that the problem with intermittent faults. The garage have not charged us but we have said we will come to some arrangement if it is solved.

Always best to rule out the simple stuff first. Hope it's a permanent fix. Just a matter of using it to get the confidence back that it's now fine. Assume you also blew back down the pipes to the tank just to make sure they are clear too.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #22 on: 04 March 2018, 17:54:24 »

It died again has been ok for a few days. Took it on the local bypass got to 80 and then it started to play up. Going to replace the crankshaft is there a camshaft sensor cant seem to find any info. Wish haynes did a manuel for it.

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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #23 on: 05 March 2018, 07:23:47 »

Yes, it does have a cam sensor. Haynes manual is for the Vectra C.
Failing sensors should give error codes. I assume when it plays up there's no flashing EML light, however brief?
How methodical were the garage that looked at it. Section by section, system by system is the only way you'll find a seemingly random problem.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #24 on: 05 March 2018, 08:23:56 »

This car is now getting on my nerves going to try some petrol and a match.

A few months back we cleared out the part where the air intact is for the heater it gets full of leaves etc it has a vent at the bottom just put a hose pipe in to it to flush it away (cant get your hand in) that may be where to water came from that was running onto the multiplug on the crankshaft sensor. It was running from the scuttle onto the multiplug that is at the point that we started getting trouble with the car.

I just don't know whether that was the problem when it played up yesterday the  EML light did come on.
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #25 on: 05 March 2018, 09:37:02 »

If the EML came on then you need to get the codes read to find out what it's complaining about. :y
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #26 on: 05 March 2018, 13:15:21 »

If the EML came on then you need to get the codes read to find out what it's complaining about. :y
P1220 START OF INJECTOR CONTROL. P1345 ROTARY ANGLE SENSOR.


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ajsphead

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #27 on: 05 March 2018, 20:25:04 »

These are not uncommon combined fault codes on DTi engines. I've done a bit of digging and come up with the following from collected wisdom.

"both of those codes refer indirectly to the pump speed the p1345 is the one that will stop the engine, p1220 will eventually but is more to do with the actual and desired injection quantity, and the pump speed, if you have swapped the pump from another vehicle and the fault is still there i would expect it to be a wireing [sic] fault my hunch would be one of the connectors onto the pump i think you would have to do a drag test on each of the connectors many holes to see if one or more has spread, bit of a bugger but the only way forward i think"

"Maybe, could also have been dirty connects on that electrical connector for the fuel pump!"

"The pump camshaft speed sensor is the small sensor thats attached to the pump control unit via a small ribbon, this sensor detects the pump speed by using a sensor wheel that is attached to the pumps main shaft, if this wheel becomes loose or broken then the pump may need to be replaced BUT the sensor could be faulty and sending a bad signal. Replaced sensor, unsoldered from my edc and replaced with one from a breakers pump edc" - needs a diesel injection specialist to sort out unless you're good with a soldering iron.

"Hi this whole state of affairs, points to lack of fuel, either the injector pump can not suck the fuel through or there is a restriction. You could try a few cheap options first, replace the small valve on the return pipe from the injection pump. The fuel inlet pipe is 17MM the outlet/return pipe is 19mm. keep your vectra above 10L, change the fuel filter top cap for cracks, (you get it separately from the whole unit), check the hose from the fuel filter to injection pumps for air leaks"

"Although most people seem to think that the fuel pump was on the way out and it might well have been, but where the crank sensor went in to the bottom of the engine, the contact where the sensor is was extremely dirty and clogged with oil/greasy black crap. So I think because of how dirty it was down there, the sensor was probably not working correctly and would cut the engine out"

"For anyone else with this code I think I have fixed the problem now. I was on the verge of getting replacement pump and paying to get it fitted but didn't in the end. I didn't want to spend the money on a fault where it might be something as its alot to spend. In the end I think there was a blockage in the sender unit. I read about there being a sort of plastic mesh on the bottom and that gets all blocked up so the fuel pump can't get the fuel quick enough.
Im yet to take mine out but I lifted the seat and disconnected the pipes and blew down them into the tank. One of them took alot of blowing before I could hear bubbles in the tank. So I had a bit of a blockage in the one pipe. 

Also the code description is a bit of a giveaway - P1220 injection timing control Insufficent/excessive flow detected"

Only one of these things is remotely expensive, but I still want to know what the mechanic who looked at it actually checked.

Without ruling some things in or out it's a bit difficult to know where to direct you.



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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #28 on: 07 March 2018, 21:20:14 »

We replaced the crankshaft sensor cost 24.00 done 45 trouble free miles then it starts again, had enough now going to scrap it.

In those 45 mile ran perfect mix of driving on the local dual carriageway and local roads so was able to give it a good test.
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ronnyd

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #29 on: 08 March 2018, 12:03:45 »

That crankshaft sensor sounded a bit cheap. Was it a genuine VX one from a dealer that you got yourself? After market ones are very hit and miss.
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #30 on: 08 March 2018, 12:07:50 »

Yup, I'd say cheapo-crapo cam sensor, fact it ran fine for a while suggests this as well. Seen time again cheap non-genuine sensors cause this, with GM sourced ones being far more reliable.

Normally around 70-80 for it.
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Ray Austin

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #31 on: 08 March 2018, 12:53:30 »

The Crankshaft sensor was a Lucas one. The problem is do I spend 80 on a Vauxhall sensor with no guarantee that's the problem.

The car is driving me mad now. Feel like beating it with a tree branch like John Cleese in Faulty Towers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

Now our transit wont start.
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #32 on: 08 March 2018, 14:39:44 »

With a problem like this, just chucking bits at the car has no guarantee of success. Methodical section by section, system by system is the only way. I assume all the things in my last post have been checked and are all fine. If so, that's the end of my knowledge and I hand it over to others who know more.

If not, I'd be damned if I scrapped a car for the sake of a spread or corroded connector block or a cracked filter housing lid.
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Re: Misfire
« Reply #33 on: 08 March 2018, 14:44:08 »

is there any way you can monitor fuel line pressure whilst driving it to see if it drops when it goes gaga
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Keith ABS

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Re: Misfire
« Reply #34 on: 08 March 2018, 15:39:33 »

 Have you tried fuel filter.
Not read complete thread so sorry if it has been done

Keith ABS
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