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Author Topic: Yet another shooting at an American school ....  (Read 782 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #30 on: 15 February 2018, 20:37:14 »


The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.
  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.


People living in other vast countries with dangerous wildlife and crazy people seem to manage without having an arsenal in their house.  ::)

Canada, Russia, China, Australia, the 'Stans' and various African countries spring to mind.  ;)

I agree, but Americans have gone through fighting the native Americans, fighting the British for Independance, fighting each other to win the Wild West, then fight a very bloody Civil War, fighting in gangs which became the Mafia, and fighting to gain criminal power during Probition. They were trained to fight in the Great War, before having another full bash in WW2, followed by Korea and Vietnam, with the need to train to fight when the Cold War went hot. In addition the USA established itself as a World power from 1900, and developed in that context for the American Century, with a great round off with the First Gulf War, Iraq, and Afganistan.  Even Russia with it's revolution has not had that kind of development with the intense need to take up arms over 300+ years, with the forming of a total military State being the cornerstone of American power.  Even the British never had the type of military resource and over whelming military mind of the American.

All my contact with the Americans since my childhood has been through the military route. It is everywhere. The power of the American State is through the military, National Guard, totally armed police, along with even civilian security guards of all types being armed. Unlike the other countries named, the United States is outstanding with it's military orientation, and massive fire power from the kid on the street who can acquire guns, the average suited businessman who buys his guns in Walmart whilst buying milk, to the not so hidden militia who are sworn to fight for their families and State. The official military take it all from there.  No other country to my knowledge has this historical mix and continuing outlook on life.

The Second Amendment protects and encourages all that, and as I have already stated, that will not change in our lifetime, or unless the real and perceived threats to their national identity recede.  I cannot see that happening whilst there's a federal government...
Don't forget, the individual states have their own constitutions and several are commonwealth states in the purest sense of conception. The threat is often perceived to be from Washington DC rather from overseas  ;)

You are right there DG. My American friends hated their politics and so many of their politicians.  They saw the whole system driven by Dollars; that is what got politicians into the system, far more than their beliefs and the need to do the right thing, always. Washington is a threat to many Americans in it's policies and how people like Trump negatively portray their country, that hurts them as they are very proud of the USA.

It is also the fact that certain States can derail the aims of Congress and the President, and hence why so little changes in policies and, crucially with the subject of this thread, to the Constituation such as the Second Amendment.  :(
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #31 on: 15 February 2018, 20:50:57 »

To be honest I think that's all froth and an attempt to justify what's going on over there.  ::) 

It's the only country where this sort of thing happens on a regular basis and apparently the US has something like 5% of the world's population, but 50% of the guns in civilian hands globally!  :o  And we can waffle on about Militias and the 2nd Amendment as much as we like but the fact is that if they had the sort of gun control laws like other countries, then this would happen less often.  ;)

I went to a gun show once in Texas held in a local community centre and it had the atmosphere of a local church fete!  :o Families wandering around looking at the stuff for sale, kids running around the stalls..... But I wouldn't have let most of them handle a fickin pea shooter.....  :-X  ::)

Window lickers!  :-X. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic!  :(
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #32 on: 15 February 2018, 22:13:35 »


The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.
  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.


People living in other vast countries with dangerous wildlife and crazy people seem to manage without having an arsenal in their house.  ::)

Canada, Russia, China, Australia, the 'Stans' and various African countries spring to mind.  ;)

.. and specifically, I wonder what you're likely to encounter that requires a firearm when you're at School. ::)
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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #33 on: 15 February 2018, 23:30:17 »

Beyond a hormonal teenage lad with rejection issues...
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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #34 on: 16 February 2018, 08:42:41 »

These shootings are almost always carried out be students or recent former students who are also almost exclusively male.

You've found the answer. Stop any male who has ever attended school from owning a gun...
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #35 on: 16 February 2018, 10:20:35 »


The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.
  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.


People living in other vast countries with dangerous wildlife and crazy people seem to manage without having an arsenal in their house.  ::)

Canada, Russia, China, Australia, the 'Stans' and various African countries spring to mind.  ;)

.. and specifically, I wonder what you're likely to encounter that requires a firearm when you're at School. ::)

A nutter who comes in to shoot up the school, and that is how Americans think.

Like it or not, and I certainly do not like it, that is the reality of the USA.  You can make comparisons, discuss moral ideals, and advise from a far on what Americans should do, but it makes damn all difference.  It is their nature for all the reasons I suggested, and probably more like their amazing insecurity that I have noted on many occasions over the years.

I always recall the incident my husband and family almost got involved in outside JFK Airport, New York.  A white redneck objected to a black man taking his place on an a overcrowded hotel bus and without hesitation produced a handgun and said "If you get on that bus you fxxking nxxxxr I'll fxxking shoot you!!"  He meant every word.  That is how easy it is for the gun to be of second nature in any confrontation.  I have seen other examples in the USA, which my ex-military American friends were horrified about, but they just said this is the United States of America and this is what our society is.  They did not possess guns even though they were fully trained to use them, but they were resigned to the status quo.

After all that though I LOVE the USA, and would live in Colorado like tomorrow.  So envious of Guffer! 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Kevin Wood

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #36 on: 16 February 2018, 10:30:50 »

A nutter who comes in to shoot up the school..

Yebbut.. If people didn't bring guns to school... ::)

I must be missing something.

Quote
.. and that is how Americans think.

You sure about that? ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #37 on: 16 February 2018, 11:02:56 »

A nutter who comes in to shoot up the school..

Yebbut.. If people didn't bring guns to school... ::)

I must be missing something.

Quote
.. and that is how Americans think.

You sure about that? ;D

But there is every chance American pupils will bring guns into school because their society outside the school often involves guns.  We in the UK are facing a rise in school children bringing knives into school for the same reason as the American kids; for defence defense.  It is the nutters (and I get your mirth! ;D ;D) on the outside and inside of their schools that produce this fear factor.  Probably why Trump emphasised "Mental Health" in his speech and did not mention guns, or gun control.  You see the American mind is blaming other factors, and not the elephant in the room as that goes to the heart of their culture.

The American kids and the parents are worried about the defense of themselves, which is being echoed in some of the interviews with adults coming out of Florida. Americans think "Defense" about themselves as well as their nation, linking that to possessing guns. That to them must come first beyond everything else, and we in the UK are now not far behind that over stabbings and shootings taking place, although we do not have the gun culture of the USA.   ;)
« Last Edit: 16 February 2018, 11:09:22 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Bigron

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #38 on: 16 February 2018, 11:09:21 »

Our take-up of weaponry isn't home grown, but due to uncontrolled immigratuion and the undesirable elements that it brings with it.
BTW, Lizzie, defenCe = noun; defenSe = verb.

Ron.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #39 on: 16 February 2018, 11:13:25 »

Our take-up of weaponry isn't home grown, but due to uncontrolled immigratuion and the undesirable elements that it brings with it.
BTW, Lizzie, defenCe = noun; defenSe = verb.

Ron.

But to Americans it is defense every time :D ;)
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Bigron

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #40 on: 16 February 2018, 11:15:16 »

I know, but WE are not Americans and I can't help their ignorance/laziness!

Ron.
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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #41 on: 16 February 2018, 11:27:34 »

The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.

Bigron is spot on in saying now more Americans will buy guns. With every shooting the average American thinks he must improve his "security" and will not only buy another gun, but probably even upgrade to an AK47, or similar, whilst circumventing State laws on automatics /semi- automatics! That is the American way, and from my experience in the States they will use those guns if provoked.

Many moons ago when those pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians were out to attack your trusty wagon and horse, I might agree but, things have moved on in the world considerably.

Of course those Pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians then became armed due to the quantity of arms being carried by the people with the wagon and horse which they ultimately obtained as a prize......and from there it appears to have escalated....all be it the basic reason to have firearms has long since been consigned to history!
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #42 on: 16 February 2018, 12:18:08 »

The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.

Bigron is spot on in saying now more Americans will buy guns. With every shooting the average American thinks he must improve his "security" and will not only buy another gun, but probably even upgrade to an AK47, or similar, whilst circumventing State laws on automatics /semi- automatics! That is the American way, and from my experience in the States they will use those guns if provoked.

Many moons ago when those pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians were out to attack your trusty wagon and horse, I might agree but, things have moved on in the world considerably.

Of course those Pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians then became armed due to the quantity of arms being carried by the people with the wagon and horse which they ultimately obtained as a prize......and from there it appears to have escalated....all be it the basic reason to have firearms has long since been consigned to history!

In quoting me you have missed out all this, which is way beyond anything to do with cowboys and indians, but is all part of their frontier protection history:
"Americans have gone through fighting the native Americans, fighting the British for Independance, fighting each other to win the Wild West, then fight a very bloody Civil War, fighting in gangs which became the Mafia, and fighting to gain criminal power during Probition. They were trained to fight in the Great War, before having another full bash in WW2, followed by Korea and Vietnam, with the need to train to fight when the Cold War went hot. In addition the USA established itself as a World power from 1900, and developed in that context for the American Century, with a great round off with the First Gulf War, Iraq, and Afganistan.  Even Russia with it's revolution has not had that kind of development with the intense need to take up arms over 300+ years, with the forming of a total military State being the cornerstone of American power.  Even the British never had the type of military resource and over whelming military mind of the American.

All my contact with the Americans since my childhood has been through the military route. It is everywhere. The power of the American State is through the military, National Guard, totally armed police, along with even civilian security guards of all types being armed. Unlike the other countries named, the United States is outstanding with it's military orientation, and massive fire power from the kid on the street who can acquire guns, the average suited businessman who buys his guns in Walmart whilst buying milk, to the not so hidden militia who are sworn to fight for their families and State. The official military take it all from there.  No other country to my knowledge has this historical mix and continuing outlook on life."


Now that is a far fuller picture Fuse 19 :y
« Last Edit: 16 February 2018, 12:20:31 by Lizzie Zoom »
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redelitev6

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Re: Yet another shooting at an American school ....
« Reply #43 on: 16 February 2018, 12:34:03 »

The difficulty is this is the United States of America with their history, culture and very huge area of open land where you need some form of defence against wild life, including some crazy people.  In the context, and that is what we in Britain must consider, of the USA it is sensible and logical to carry arms.  When you drive for hundreds of miles through vast areas of open terrority the Second Amendment makes every sense.  You are effectively alone without any security but what an American citizen carries in their automobile.  They have grown up relying on the gun to defend themselves and their family. They always have done, and no matter what us Europeans think and say, will always do so no matter what.

Bigron is spot on in saying now more Americans will buy guns. With every shooting the average American thinks he must improve his "security" and will not only buy another gun, but probably even upgrade to an AK47, or similar, whilst circumventing State laws on automatics /semi- automatics! That is the American way, and from my experience in the States they will use those guns if provoked.

Many moons ago when those pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians were out to attack your trusty wagon and horse, I might agree but, things have moved on in the world considerably.

Of course those Pesky bow and arrow wielding Indians then became armed due to the quantity of arms being carried by the people with the wagon and horse which they ultimately obtained as a prize......and from there it appears to have escalated....all be it the basic reason to have firearms has long since been consigned to history!
You mean these pesky Indians ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RghKdGn8h5A , couldn't resist that blast from the past  :D
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