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Author Topic: 4x4  (Read 2282 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #30 on: 03 March 2018, 14:19:07 »

No one has commented on my post above, and I was hoping someone could explain one thing.

Why is the Range Rover so unstable at high speeds, but the BMW X5, that the police do use as a pursuit car, is not and regularly taken up to high speeds?  What different handling characteristics does the BMW X5 have over the Range Rover, or other differing specifications that makes them so different? What could they do to the Range Rover to bring it up to X5 standards please? ??? ???
 :y :y
Having driven both the X5 (a mongrel cross between a later 90s 5 series, and a BMW era Range Rover, and one of the key reasons BMW bought Rover) 4.8 flat out and a 4.2SC L322 RR flat out, handling is not hugely different.

The RR has a bit more body roll at lower speed, the X5 has the usual rock hard BMW setup, compounded with RFTs.

Both are pretty rapid to 100mph, and both start to run out of steam at about 120-130mph.

Both take some stopping, due to weight, but will stop from 100mph reasonably quickly, clearly not as quickly as a lighter, luxury saloon.

Both exhibit understeer under heavy acceleration, and the RR does under heavy braking, where the X5 oversteers.

Both are horrific on fuel when pushed, and simply bad when cruising.


Owning either makes no difference to what people think of you - you're a knob jockey in either.  I'd prefer the RR due to a better ride, easier maintenance, and better reliability from the drivetrain.

Thanks TB :y :y

That is very interesting to me as I have neither driven a Range Rover or BMW X5 so have always wondered how the differed.  I must say, in my humble opinion, the RR has far more street presence than the X5, especially as (you are absolutely right TB! >:( >:( >:()  some 'knob jockey' comes right up to your rear (yet again!) in a bid to intimidate me as I was doing the speed limit on a local road after he tried to cut me up on a roundabout >:( >:( >:(  On that occasion he come unstuck, as I puled a police type stop maneuver on him and highlighted his driving deficences to him; he was not happy, but  went very quietly indeed, with him driving very carefully after that behind me until I pulled off the main road! :D :D ;)
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #31 on: 03 March 2018, 14:20:36 »

And I thought you were intelligent.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #32 on: 03 March 2018, 14:31:13 »

And I thought you were intelligent.

Here we go again!! ::) ::) ::)

I am intelligent, so you tell me how I may not be! ::) ::) ::) :-* :-*
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TheBoy

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #33 on: 03 March 2018, 14:33:34 »

When I worked in the Ambulance Service we got our Bedford ambulance stuck one winter & they sent the ECV Land Rover to pull us out & it was totally useless
The driver was a first class prat then.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #34 on: 03 March 2018, 14:50:15 »

.. and "fast pursuit" in a Range Rover?  :o No, thanks!

Ah, that is "fast" in the context of the early 1970's when Range Rover patrol arms were introduced. Even by then most cars on the road dated from the 1950's and fist half of the 1960's, and in those you were lucky to reach 60 mph, and just maybe 70 mph.  My A40 was lucky to do 50 with the wind behind it! It is my belief, correct me if I am wrong, but it was only in the late 1960's and early1970's that even the average Ford Cortina could start to do 80, 90, or even 100 mph, with new cross flow engines, and Gt, XLS, etc badges. Later that decade the really faster average car came into being, and started to do 125-130+ mph. This challenged, and still does, the Traffic police to match their patrol cars to the top speeds of even the lowly boy races hatchbacks.

It was in the mid-1970's that the limitations of the traffic police Range Rover for "fast" pursuits became apparent.  It was also when my police chum lost his two colleagues in one. ;)

No one has commented on my post above, and I was hoping someone could explain one thing.

Why is the Range Rover so unstable at high speeds, but the BMW X5, that the police do use as a pursuit car, is not and regularly taken up to high speeds?  What different handling characteristics does the BMW X5 have over the Range Rover, or other differing specifications that makes them so different? What could they do to the Range Rover to bring it up to X5 standards please? ??? ???
 :y :y

Figures taken from road tests published by Autocar magazine in 1973, Lizzie.

Cortina 1300.....85 MPH

Cortina 1600.....92 MPH

Cortina 2000 GXL.....102 MPH

Capri 3000E.....122 MPH.

Range Rover...91 MPH.......zero to sixty.....13.9 secs......15 MPG. :-* :-* :-* :-*

Thanks Opti! :y

That confirms what I thought.  I know my 1100 Escort Mk1 in 1973 could just about reach 85 mph, and my later Cortina's Mk3,4 &5 1600's could get me to 100 mph and hold it for a bit. The Vauxhall Cavalier 1800 SRi was the first that I got to 130 mph in 1986. 8) 8) :-* :y

We managed the exact same (130 MPH indicated) in a 1.8i Belmont (Mk2 Astra with a boot but same engine as the Cav) on a private road not a million miles from the M6 at 3 AM. ::) True speed was probably in the 118/120 mph region.  :)
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #35 on: 03 March 2018, 15:19:25 »

Quote
some 'knob jockey' comes right up to your rear (yet again!) in a bid to intimidate me as I was doing the speed limit on a local road after he tried to cut me up on a roundabout On that occasion he come unstuck, as I puled a police type stop maneuver on him and highlighted his driving deficences to him; he was not happy, but went very quietly indeed, with him driving very carefully after that behind me until I pulled off the main road!

Where do I begin?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Such a reaction to aggression in that way is likely to get you slapped, or worse. It is not your, or my, job to 'police' crap driving, our only defense is just that, defensive driving.

At best, your behaviour was twa-tish, at worse impersonating a police officer, which last time I looked was an offence... careless or dangerous driving being somewhere in the middle: which one depends the outcome of the situation, but rest assured deliberate actions leading to a collision would be considered dangerous.

All of your alleged training should teach you not to react to other drivers shortcomings, especially not whilst driving. Your first mistake was allowing yourself to be intimidated, the only response to this is to slow down and move left,turn left if you have to to remove yourself from the situation. Your second mistake was to react and respond to the situation in the way that you did.

Say what you want, you know I am right whether you admit it or not*.

*Before replying to this post, do yourself a favour and stop, consider the situation and run through the possible outcomes had anything happened differently regardless of whether positive or negative.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #36 on: 03 March 2018, 15:57:28 »

Quote
some 'knob jockey' comes right up to your rear (yet again!) in a bid to intimidate me as I was doing the speed limit on a local road after he tried to cut me up on a roundabout On that occasion he come unstuck, as I puled a police type stop maneuver on him and highlighted his driving deficences to him; he was not happy, but went very quietly indeed, with him driving very carefully after that behind me until I pulled off the main road!

Where do I begin?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Such a reaction to aggression in that way is likely to get you slapped, or worse. It is not your, or my, job to 'police' crap driving, our only defense is just that, defensive driving.

At best, your behaviour was twa-tish, at worse impersonating a police officer, which last time I looked was an offence... careless or dangerous driving being somewhere in the middle: which one depends the outcome of the situation, but rest assured deliberate actions leading to a collision would be considered dangerous.

All of your alleged training should teach you not to react to other drivers shortcomings, especially not whilst driving. Your first mistake was allowing yourself to be intimidated, the only response to this is to slow down and move left,turn left if you have to to remove yourself from the situation. Your second mistake was to react and respond to the situation in the way that you did.

Say what you want, you know I am right whether you admit it or not*.

*Before replying to this post, do yourself a favour and stop, consider the situation and run through the possible outcomes had anything happened differently regardless of whether positive or negative.

Ah at last a full explanation instead of one cynical sentence! ::) ::) ::) :D

You have read so much into what I said and assumed soooo much as you often do.

In this case you have centred everything on "impersonating a police officer".  Right, let's take that on first.  I didn't actually say I was enacting a police stop, but a "police style".  Big difference.  I work alongside the Police service, and have had police officers explain what they do and how they do it for many decades.  So I will NEVER, and have NEVER impersonated a police officer.  In fact although I have a pass to go into any police establishment in the County, I have to tell some very vulnerable people that I am definitely NOT a police officer and never have been; I am a civilian who acts as an advisor for the police and have seemingly worked alongside police officers most of my professional life.  In fact, having had many police family members and friends, let alone going out on patrol with police officers, I know how much responsibility they carry on their shoulders which they can only do after much training and years of on the job experience.  Therefore, I well know what the difference is between me as a civilian advisor and them as police officers. 

On the question of what I did in the case I highlighted with the Range Rover driver, I will now give you the details to replace your cynical assumptions.  It was a local urban road crammed with traffic and many people in cars.  It was daylight, and I had many witnesses around if any trouble had arrupted. I was ahead of the RR after he tried to race on the inside down a dual carriageway, past others, at a speed above the 40 mph limit, then take the wrong approach to the third exit on the roundabout, almost forcing some young women driver into the roundabout. He arrived behind me at full speed, on a mobile phone, and then tail gate me within inches of my rear bumper. As I approached a central reservation with bollard, with a queue of traffic coming the other way, I braked him down to a stop, and swung the Omega across the road so he had no-where to go. I had nowhere to go, left or right! I then got out with many witnesses watching and spoke to him in my nice, professional voice, in a matter of fact way as a member of the driving public, explaining what he had just done that was so wrong.  He accepted that, grudgeling, and said "sorry".  Within two minutes I had got back in the car and we were all on our way.  It was handled in a safe and controlled manner, with at NO STAGE me pretending to be a police officer.  I am professionally trained to risk assess, and this is one rare occasion where I could as a female driver take the action I did to potentially save other drivers their property from damage, or worse still, personal injury. I did what a responsible member of the public can do when, as I am acutely aware knowing what I do about Kent Police, there are just not enough police officers to go around and sometimes us civilians have to step up to the plate and not be the "snowflakes" that so many on the OOF moan about.  The police need our help when it is SAFE for us to do so; in this case is was perfectly safe and all under control.

I have replied to your post without having to consider what could have gone wrong as I DID THIS BEFORE MY ACTION ON THE DAY.  I have had the displeasure of dealing with some hardened criminals during my retail career, when I had to take action bringing in the police to assist, but after they COULD have taken me out; some had knives, heavy fists, and even firearms.  But I had a job to do to protect the company's monies and stock, let alone the jobs of my thousands of staff.  So, I have the experience, knowledge, and total commitment to do what is professionally necessary in a safe and controlled manner.  You should have recognised by now DG I am no shrinking violet of a women, but one who is large built and can hold her own when physically attacked; yes that happened to me as well on quite a few occasions.

So, DG stop worrying about me (if ever that was the case ;D ;D :-* :-* :-* :-*) and cease reading so much into simple statements made on the OOF. 8) 8) 8) ;)
« Last Edit: 03 March 2018, 16:06:24 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #37 on: 03 March 2018, 16:07:45 »

I get tailgated and carved up on roundabouts every single day. No matter how irritating both of these things are, not once would I consider shutting down a dual carriageway a rational response, regardless of how polite, capable or  experienced I might consider myself to be or how many witnesses that I might think I have...
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #38 on: 03 March 2018, 16:10:35 »

I get tailgated and carved up on roundabouts every single day. No matter how irritating both of these things are, not once would I consider shutting down a dual carriageway a rational response, regardless of how polite, capable or  experienced I might consider myself to be or how many witnesses that I might think I have...

Who said I shut down a dual carriageway? ::) ::) ::) ;)
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #39 on: 03 March 2018, 16:28:44 »

You implied it...

Anyways, nowt I say will make you stop and actually consider your actions, so that's all to be said about that.

Back to the original question... ::)

The X5 is a performance suv, that's why it has wide, low profile tyres. The Range Rover is an expensive way of retrieving a horse from a muddy field, that happens to scrub up enough to be used in Chelsea.
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henryd

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #40 on: 03 March 2018, 16:32:48 »

You implied it...

Anyways, nowt I say will make you stop and actually consider your actions, so that's all to be said about that.

Back to the original question... ::)

The X5 is a performance suv, that's why it has wide, low profile tyres. The Range Rover is an expensive way of retrieving a horse from a muddy field, that happens to scrub up enough to be used in Chelsea.

The difference being that the Range Rover could and the X5 couldn't as worse than useless offroad :y
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Re: 4x4
« Reply #41 on: 03 March 2018, 16:50:17 »

I frequently disagree with Dr G .... but on this occasion I agree whole heartedly. It's not Joe Public's job to police other road users what ever you do to a living. You'd have had a 2 word reply from me. What the other driver did was wrong, but not your concern.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #42 on: 03 March 2018, 16:53:01 »

I frequently disagree with Dr G .... but on this occasion I agree whole heartedly. It's not Joe Public's job to police other road users what ever you do to a living. You'd have had a 2 word reply from me. What the other driver did was wrong, but not your concern.

Ah, right.  When he has just forced another driver out of the way and been a few inches from my rear end whilst on the mobile phone............. ::) ::) ::)
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Kevin Wood

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #43 on: 03 March 2018, 16:59:36 »

It's easy for the red mist to descend in such situations, but the best policy is to let him go and crash into some other sucker IMHO.
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Nick W

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Re: 4x4
« Reply #44 on: 03 March 2018, 17:03:19 »

Pull over, let him pass, and watch his crash rather than be part of it. Or the partial cause of it. There's enough bad tempered cretins driving for you to become another one.
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