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Author Topic: Pensioners....get yer wallets out  (Read 2321 times)

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STEMO

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #60 on: 11 May 2018, 13:40:37 »

Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.
Its supposed to be a welfare state to help those who cannot help themselves, once we had universal; benefits then it became a way of buying votes with other peoples money.
The only excuse that could be found for this, at the time, was that it would punish poor people because of the stigma around claiming benefits, so they could end up freezing or starving because they were too proud to claim.
Imo, there is no stigma whatsoever around claiming benefits these days, in fact its a badge of honour for quite a few, so that excuse is gone.
The political problem with doing the right thing is huge though.  This was demonstrated when the coalition introduced a cap on benefits per household, which equated to approx. 1.5 times the average wage, the noise was deafening. Which is more than Ive ever earned in my life.
Cries of "taking food out of childrens mouths", "driving the poor deeper into poverty" etc. etc.  ::)
It takes a politician with big balls to do the right thing these days, and they are as common as a sack full of hens teeth, buried in a mound of rocking horse sh1t.
Have you quite finished?  ;D You're only talking like this cause you know you'll fall of your perch before you reach pensionable age.  :P
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #61 on: 11 May 2018, 13:41:09 »

Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.
Its supposed to be a welfare state to help those who cannot help themselves, once we had universal; benefits then it became a way of buying votes with other peoples money.
The only excuse that could be found for this, at the time, was that it would punish poor people because of the stigma around claiming benefits, so they could end up freezing or starving because they were too proud to claim.
Imo, there is no stigma whatsoever around claiming benefits these days, in fact its a badge of honour for quite a few, so that excuse is gone.
The political problem with doing the right thing is huge though.  This was demonstrated when the coalition introduced a cap on benefits per household, which equated to approx. 1.5 times the average wage, the noise was deafening. Which is more than Ive ever earned in my life.
Cries of "taking food out of childrens mouths", "driving the poor deeper into poverty" etc. etc.  ::)
It takes a politician with big balls to do the right thing these days, and they are as common as a sack full of hens teeth, buried in a mound of rocking horse sh1t.

I broadly agree with this. The Liberals (not Lib Dems) introduced the first state pension in 1909. This amounted to five bob a week which is equal to 15 today.

To get this you needed  to be over seventy. In 1909 the average life expectancy of the working man was 47. Pensions were not much of a burden on the taxpayer way back then......unlike today.

Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and 300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

We are close to tipping point where there is not enough people working to pay for the ever increasing number of pensioners.
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Field Marshal Dr. Opti

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #62 on: 11 May 2018, 13:42:12 »

......so STMO should do 'the right thing' and give his pension to the poor and needy. ::)
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STEMO

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #63 on: 11 May 2018, 13:43:27 »

I am the very personification of poor and needy. I haven't got a pot to piss in  :'(
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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #64 on: 11 May 2018, 13:47:25 »

I am the very personification of poor and needy. I haven't got a pot to piss in  :'(

You can't live in  Barnsley or Chelsea and be considered poor. :)

You are part of a wealthy elite. :)
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LC0112G

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #65 on: 11 May 2018, 14:33:52 »

Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and 300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

Because, as I intimated earlier, the cost of employing civil servants (with their expensive gold plated pensions) to decide who does and who does not get these benefits far exceeds any possible cost saving. And then there are the lawyers and barristers required to defend the boarder-line cases which get taken to court. A single case could end up costing millions.

In the overall scheme of things, these benefits cost peanuts. Fractions of a fraction of a percent of govt spending. There are much bigger fish to fry when trying to save money.
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LC0112G

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #66 on: 11 May 2018, 14:43:21 »

Back on topic - I have always ben a firm believer that all state benefits should be means tested.

Define state benefit though. Is the State Pension a benefit? Or access to the NHS? Or free schooling for your children? They're definitely benefits of living in this state/country, but you ain't gonna get much support from middle England if you attempt to restrict free access to these to those that fail some arbitrary means test.
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STEMO

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #67 on: 11 May 2018, 14:54:54 »

As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D
« Last Edit: 11 May 2018, 15:06:46 by STEMO »
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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #68 on: 11 May 2018, 15:47:04 »

The rich elites don't drive GM tractors, but cars with a bit of prestige like Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaags. There ought to be a 50k a day tax on all Jaaag owners applied retrospectively to fund a 10k one off mobility allowance at 70 to all non Jaaag owners. :P :P :P
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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #69 on: 11 May 2018, 17:04:46 »

As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs :-*   ;D ;D

This information alone could mean he may consider hanging himself. :)
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jimmy944

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #70 on: 11 May 2018, 17:06:30 »

Why wealthy pensioners (and there are plenty of them) are given free prescriptions, free TV licence, free eye tests, free travel pass, and 300 winter fuel allowance is beyond me.

Because, as I intimated earlier, the cost of employing civil servants (with their expensive gold plated pensions) to decide who does and who does not get these benefits far exceeds any possible cost saving. And then there are the lawyers and barristers required to defend the boarder-line cases which get taken to court. A single case could end up costing millions.

In the overall scheme of things, these benefits cost peanuts. Fractions of a fraction of a percent of govt spending. There are much bigger fish to fry when trying to save money.

Is it really that hard though? surely the very people you're targeting are those that already complete a self assessment (I don't think pensions get paid net of PAYE do they?), so for those pensioners who a re higher rate tax payers, you just levy a 100% tax on their benefits payments.

I acknowledge this doesn't cover all bases, but it would hit a rump of people. And it was a good enough mechanism to take away working age benefits (child support).  :y
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LC0112G

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #71 on: 11 May 2018, 17:20:53 »

Is it really that hard though? surely the very people you're targeting are those that already complete a self assessment (I don't think pensions get paid net of PAYE do they?), so for those pensioners who a re higher rate tax payers, you just levy a 100% tax on their benefits payments.

State pensions are paid gross with no tax deducted, so yes SP is paid outside of PAYE. The govt then reduce your tax code by the amount paid as SP, and that code is then used for any/all other sources of income (private pensions, job income, etc).

You may be targeting higher paid pensioners, but you can't just dream up a tax for them. You would have to find a way of reducing their personal allowances. However reducing or otherwise fiddling with personal allowances to compensate for benefits will drag a lot of low/middle income pensoners into the Self Assessment regieme, and that is a recipe for disaster. It also has the potential to create lots of traps where earning 1 extra results in a 2 drop in income.

Your other issue is that many millionare pensioners are sensible enough to have their money in tax free shelters like ISA's or their houses. Almighty fuss if you attempt to raise tax from them.
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STEMO

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #72 on: 11 May 2018, 17:25:00 »

As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs :-*   ;D ;D

This information alone could mean he may consider hanging himself. :)
Hope not, we need his contributions.  ;D
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LC0112G

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #73 on: 11 May 2018, 17:29:52 »

As you've explained before, Malcolm, no one has 'paid in' to the state pension, the people who are contributing now are paying for the current pensioners. I get a warm feeling inside knowing that Albs is paying to keep me warm in my dotage. Thanks, Albs  :-*   ;D ;D

Yes, but I would further argue that virtually no-one, and probably on-one on this list, ever pays anything in nett. We're all takers of govt benefits one way or another. Govt spending in 2017 was 1726 Bn. So for a population of 65 Million, that represents about 26.5K in per man woman and child. Personal taxation (Income tax, NI,  VAT and a few others) make up about  70% of govt income, so accounting for that I suppose you could argue that it's about 18.5K per man, woman and child.

So unless you pay 18.5K in taxes per year for every person in your household, you're a benefit scrounger living off the taxes paid by others.  ::)
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STEMO

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Re: Pensioners....get yer wallets out
« Reply #74 on: 11 May 2018, 18:49:49 »

I like my analogy best. Keep working, Albs.  :y
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