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Author Topic: Next doors phones & tablets  (Read 824 times)

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Next doors phones & tablets
« on: 31 October 2018, 09:03:31 »

Appearing on Win 10 network.

I know they're harmless, as they're not accessing my router - but is there anyway to block them?

Internet not much help.

Do I just live with it?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #1 on: 31 October 2018, 09:35:57 »

Appearing how?  As WiFi hotspots or as devices on your network?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #2 on: 31 October 2018, 09:52:08 »

Appearing how?  As WiFi hotspots or as devices on your network?

Under phones - MAC address, no IP address, not connected to my router or home network.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #3 on: 31 October 2018, 09:59:10 »

Sounds dodgy to me. Not sure why they would be visible in Windows (other than as unpaired wireless devices)  if they aren't connected to your router, but, then again, Windows. ::)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #4 on: 31 October 2018, 10:00:07 »

Appearing how?  As WiFi hotspots or as devices on your network?

Under phones - MAC address, no IP address, not connected to my router or home network.

File Explorer> Network
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #5 on: 31 October 2018, 10:16:49 »

Solved it, you have to turn WPS off at router.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #6 on: 31 October 2018, 10:31:02 »

Solved it, you have to turn WPS off at router.

 :o Erm, yeah.  Also change the default passcode for the WiFi....please......
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #7 on: 31 October 2018, 10:44:44 »

Solved it, you have to turn WPS off at router.

 :o Erm, yeah.  Also change the default passcode for the WiFi....please......

No need to do that, as I said, they are not connected to the router.

WPS when pressed on the router, enables quick access to your WiFi without divulging your password, mainly used for visitors to have temporary use of your WiFi.

WPS scans for local nearby devices, but does not connect them to your private secured network.

Now I've turned it off, all of next doors phones and tablets no longer show.

If you met my neighbours you would quickly realise that they are not IT literate.
« Last Edit: 31 October 2018, 10:47:08 by Auto Addict »
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #8 on: 31 October 2018, 10:48:45 »

Reading more indepth discussions on the internet, it's a common but not serious problem.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #9 on: 31 October 2018, 11:02:13 »

Awaits TB to contradict all of the above.... :'(
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #10 on: 31 October 2018, 11:04:30 »

My phone 'sees' several networks from the house, near end of terrace. Obviously can't connect without password, but on 3, so have no need to connect to any one else :D
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #11 on: 31 October 2018, 11:13:32 »

WPS has some major security vunerabilities.  Not all of them are easy to implement but it is generally accepted that best practice is to turn WPS off wherever it has raised its ugly head.  Unless you have a specific need for it, turn it off....please....
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #12 on: 31 October 2018, 15:05:33 »

What is this WPS?Where do I find it?How do you know if it's on or off and if on how do you turn it off?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #13 on: 31 October 2018, 15:27:08 »

Login to the admin interface on your router, it'll be under wireless or security settings.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #14 on: 31 October 2018, 16:55:50 »

WPS should only be enabled when you actually use it (either via web interface or the press button), and should disable itself when a client connects, or a short timeout.


At no point should you see other devices in Windows File Explorer, as it means they are able to broadcast/beacon on a network your Windows machine is also connected to.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #15 on: 31 October 2018, 16:58:40 »

WPS should only be enabled when you actually use it (either via web interface or the press button), and should disable itself when a client connects, or a short timeout.


At no point should you see other devices in Windows File Explorer, as it means they are able to broadcast/beacon on a network your Windows machine is also connected to.

So, what causes it, seems quite common if you read the forums?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #16 on: 31 October 2018, 17:03:22 »

A fundamental security flaw somewhere.

Is it on all Windows devices or 1 specifically. That will help you decide where the security flaw is.


And you know the solution...   ...wifi is fundamentally insecure.  And most routers and consumer devices, at best, only support WPA2. And virtually every WPA2 implementation is flawed as well.  Disabling wifi is a viable option.  In the meantime, never run with Administrative accounts (on any OS), and don't reduce the UAC settings in Windows (quite the opposite in fact).
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #17 on: 31 October 2018, 17:12:42 »

A fundamental security flaw somewhere.

Is it on all Windows devices or 1 specifically. That will help you decide where the security flaw is.


And you know the solution...   ...wifi is fundamentally insecure.  And most routers and consumer devices, at best, only support WPA2. And virtually every WPA2 implementation is flawed as well.  Disabling wifi is a viable option.  In the meantime, never run with Administrative accounts (on any OS), and don't reduce the UAC settings in Windows (quite the opposite in fact).

On both laptops - wifi connected.

Disabling WPS on router, they disappear, as I said earlier, my next door neighbours are not computer literate so they're not trying to hack.

I don't run as administrator unless something warrants it.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #18 on: 31 October 2018, 17:18:38 »

So clearly the router is shit.  Use the available workarounds for that model, or get a decent one (though suspect this is a HH, so replacing router means loss of BT Wifi)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #19 on: 31 October 2018, 17:26:32 »

HH6, but reading the forums, it happens on different makes of router, never happened on HH5.

WiFi is much better on HH6 than HH5.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #20 on: 31 October 2018, 17:51:20 »

HH6, but reading the forums, it happens on different makes of router, never happened on HH5.

WiFi is much better on HH6 than HH5.
Put the hh5 back in, and use cables ;)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #21 on: 02 November 2018, 10:01:39 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #22 on: 02 November 2018, 16:46:55 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.
So either that adapter was connected to neighbours powerline network (and not yours), or (if it had built in wifi) was set to allow anyone and everyone in?


This tech might appear to look to be an easy solution to a (non existent, really) problem, but in essence they are all universally shite, insecure, problematic and never maintained.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #23 on: 02 November 2018, 17:07:14 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.

Are you also paying their 'leccy bill? ::)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #24 on: 02 November 2018, 17:21:14 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.

Are you also paying their 'leccy bill? ::)

No, I'm plugged into their garage - they haven't found out yet ::)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #25 on: 02 November 2018, 17:26:23 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.
So either that adapter was connected to neighbours powerline network (and not yours), or (if it had built in wifi) was set to allow anyone and everyone in?


This tech might appear to look to be an easy solution to a (non existent, really) problem, but in essence they are all universally shite, insecure, problematic and never maintained.

I've set MAC address blocking on the extender, it's stopped the two phones and tablets showing on the windows network map.

After checking that, changed my router and extender passwords just to make sure.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #26 on: 04 November 2018, 09:30:13 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.
So either that adapter was connected to neighbours powerline network (and not yours), or (if it had built in wifi) was set to allow anyone and everyone in?


This tech might appear to look to be an easy solution to a (non existent, really) problem, but in essence they are all universally shite, insecure, problematic and never maintained.

I've set MAC address blocking on the extender, it's stopped the two phones and tablets showing on the windows network map.

After checking that, changed my router and extender passwords just to make sure.
The fact is, to show under Windows under Network, your computer is receiving valid Computer Browser broadcasts from those devices. To receive them, they must have a valid, usable path for the broadcasts to get through...   ...ie, they *ARE* on the same network. Period.

Blocking MACs etc isn't the answer, there is something more fundamentally wrong.  Maybe the hub is allowing unauthenticated/unencrypted connections. Maybe the extenders are.  Maybe something is wrong with hub, and its allowing BT Wifi onto your private network, rather than VPN'd off to BT? Maybe the device you are seeing this shit on has a poor driver and is connecting to their network.


I think you need to work out what is going on, and educate the faulty device with a sledgehammer.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #27 on: 04 November 2018, 10:42:24 »

Problem solved, one of the powerline adaptors was picking up the phones and tablets.
So either that adapter was connected to neighbours powerline network (and not yours), or (if it had built in wifi) was set to allow anyone and everyone in?


This tech might appear to look to be an easy solution to a (non existent, really) problem, but in essence they are all universally shite, insecure, problematic and never maintained.

I've set MAC address blocking on the extender, it's stopped the two phones and tablets showing on the windows network map.

After checking that, changed my router and extender passwords just to make sure.
The fact is, to show under Windows under Network, your computer is receiving valid Computer Browser broadcasts from those devices. To receive them, they must have a valid, usable path for the broadcasts to get through...   ...ie, they *ARE* on the same network. Period.

Blocking MACs etc isn't the answer, there is something more fundamentally wrong.  Maybe the hub is allowing unauthenticated/unencrypted connections. Maybe the extenders are.  Maybe something is wrong with hub, and its allowing BT Wifi onto your private network, rather than VPN'd off to BT? Maybe the device you are seeing this shit on has a poor driver and is connecting to their network.


I think you need to work out what is going on, and educate the faulty device with a sledgehammer.

None of the devices are connected to my router.

None of the devices are showing an IP address.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #28 on: 04 November 2018, 10:47:01 »

How are you determining that they don't have an IP?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #29 on: 04 November 2018, 10:48:34 »

Unless you have enabled other protocols beyond IP of course...
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #30 on: 04 November 2018, 10:53:20 »

File Explorer> Network> right click on device> properties> shows MAC address, no IP address.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #31 on: 04 November 2018, 18:13:53 »

File Explorer> Network> right click on device> properties> shows MAC address, no IP address.
You are categorically on the same network.

No point diagnosing further, the device that is allowing it needs to go to landfill.  No matter id settings can apparently resolve it - clearly the designers have cocked up on a major way
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #32 on: 05 November 2018, 07:37:45 »

I've renamed my network as GCHQ-Street-Spy 8)
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #33 on: 05 November 2018, 08:53:14 »

If you find the device can I get the make/model to do some research?  Or could I buy the item off of you for a few beer tokens?
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #34 on: 05 November 2018, 10:12:35 »

The confusing thing is, our own phones and tablets don't show on the windows 10 network, everything else does - pc's, printers, tv.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #35 on: 08 November 2018, 18:15:52 »

If I disable 'Windows Connect Now' they disappear. :y
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #36 on: 09 November 2018, 17:19:35 »

If I disable 'Windows Connect Now' they disappear. :y
You are completely and utterly missing the point.

If your hardware is allowing other people on your network, it needs replacing. If your PC drivers are looking for non connected Wifis when its connected to a known network, it needs changing.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #37 on: 10 November 2018, 08:48:43 »

If I disable 'Windows Connect Now' they disappear. :y
You are completely and utterly missing the point.

If your hardware is allowing other people on your network, it needs replacing. If your PC drivers are looking for non connected Wifis when its connected to a known network, it needs changing.

Windows Connect Now searches your network not only for devices that are currently connected, but also for any devices that may potentially be capable to being on your network (if you give them permission.)


These ghost devices in a sense have been on your network, and are continously so.  Here's why:  Phones and some other WiFi devices, but especially phones, are continously scanning for available networks, even when they are connected to one, to try and findpossibly a better one (there's some technical babble of what's they are doing, but basically in laymans terms this is the best way to describe it.)   Because of this, your WiFi network is continously being scanned intermittently by these devices, and yourWiFi network is acknowledging of course that it is available.  This will even occur if your network is a hidden one by the way.  This is how a phone (or any other WiFi device for that matter) can actually even begin to connect to a WiFi network. 


When you are out and about, and you may need to connect to a WiFi network at say a friends house, or Restaurant even, you first have  to pull down the list of available networks to actually connect to it.  If you ever notice, depending where you are at thattime, there usually is at least one more, and often times, numerous other networks besides the one you're trying to connect to available.  Most of the time those devices are listed very quickly for you.  This is not because your phone is the fastest searcherin the world.  This is because in the background while you were doing other things, or it was in your pocket, it was also searching the area for these, so it could have it available to you at a moments notice.  This feature on some phones can be turned off,and those wishing to save battery power even more may look into that, however, that for another post.


The thing is, in order to get the device list, the phone/device sends out a 'packet' of data requesting devices info, that other WiFi devices and routers recognize, and respond to with information that is appropriate, in the case of a router for instance,it SSID (the WiFi network name) and type of security challenge that will be needed if that device wishes to join.  The initial sending out the information will almost always include it's MAC address, which is USUALLY assigned to a Manufacturer.  I could goon and on about this, however, it's Googly information that is even longer winded than I am.


With Windows Connect Now, it goes and does some further work so you don't have to.  It's does similar to what the phone does when you click on the Network in your 'File Explorer', Windows Connect Now, sends out a 'packet/beacon' to not only get a list ofthe current devices connect to your network, but also 'POTENTIAL' other devices that respond back to it's request via whatever WiFi outlet was available to send the beacon.  Also, it reads the logs you usually can not see yourself from a router to see whathas within a certain amount of time send out one of those packets, to try and give you the fullest list available of all possible devices you may connect to, if you, and that device BOTH have the proper authority to do so.  With Windows Connect Now off/disabled,you only see the actual devices that are currently on your network.  In this regard, WCN is not necessary as a feature, so it does not hurt at all to have it off, however, it does make it convenient when you want to connect to a tablet or other WiFi devicethat really is on your network, or at least you want it to be, then it shows you at a glance if the device itself is at least throwing off it's own beacon.


I know this is long winded, sorry for that, but hopefully in it's entirety it will help someone understand why they see these devices.

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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #38 on: 10 November 2018, 10:15:42 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #39 on: 10 November 2018, 11:28:41 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.

I'm not talking about networks, it's in Win 10 File Explorer > Networks.

There's 1000's of threads about this on the forums, seems to be a worldwide problem.
« Last Edit: 10 November 2018, 11:38:41 by Auto Addict »
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STEMO

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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #40 on: 10 November 2018, 12:34:46 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.

I'm not talking about networks, it's in Win 10 File Explorer > Networks.

There's 1000's of threads about this on the forums, seems to be a worldwide problem.
I said 'I don't care'.  ;D
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #41 on: 10 November 2018, 17:12:41 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.

I'm not talking about networks, it's in Win 10 File Explorer > Networks.

There's 1000's of threads about this on the forums, seems to be a worldwide problem.
There's a lot of shit kit out there. Shit kit* is a global problem.


*shit as in insecure. Ask Gaffers, keeps him gainfully employed :D
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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #42 on: 10 November 2018, 17:17:51 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.

I'm not talking about networks, it's in Win 10 File Explorer > Networks.

There's 1000's of threads about this on the forums, seems to be a worldwide problem.
There's a lot of shit kit out there. Shit kit* is a global problem.


*shit as in insecure. Ask Gaffers, keeps him gainfully employed :D

As well as employees who keep making very avoidable mistakes*.  Both of which for I am truely grateful  ;D ;D

(*that's 'mistakes' spelt L-A-Z-I-N-E-S-S)
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Auto Addict

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Re: Next doors phones & tablets
« Reply #43 on: 10 November 2018, 17:21:49 »

My iPad picks up next doors router. In fact, it picks up every router within about 100 metres, as well as BT FON and BT WIFI X of course. But the routers are all padlocked.
Don't know if that's good or bad, and don't really care.

I'm not talking about networks, it's in Win 10 File Explorer > Networks.

There's 1000's of threads about this on the forums, seems to be a worldwide problem.
There's a lot of shit kit out there. Shit kit* is a global problem.


*shit as in insecure. Ask Gaffers, keeps him gainfully employed :D

As well as employees who keep making very avoidable mistakes*.  Both of which for I am truely grateful  ;D ;D

(*that's 'mistakes' spelt L-A-Z-I-N-E-S-S)

I am confident that my network is secure as can be.

Only MY devices are attached to my router.

The fact that windows can see other devices is explained above.

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