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Author Topic: No Hot Water!  (Read 1267 times)

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Sir Tigger QC

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No Hot Water!
« on: 09 January 2019, 09:30:11 »

My boiler has been kettling and the rads not getting very hot, so on Monday I drained the system, filled it/drained it again, then filled and added a bottle of Sentinel X800 cleaner and left it for 24 hours.  I had the heating and hot water on for several hours on Monday evening and then left it to do its thing as normal via the timer.  :)

Yesterday I drained it, filled/drained it again and then filled and added a bottle of Sentinel X100 inhibitor.  The water came out with an orange tint so I guess the X800 did its job.  The rads now get nice and hot and the boiler is running a bit quieter.  :y

However.  ::)  The boiler dosn't come on when I switch on the hot water, and if I switch on the hot water when the boiler is running the central heating it shuts down.  :(  I can hear the motor in the 3 way valve whirring, but then the boiler shuts down.  :-\

'dangle berries'!  >:(

Any ideas chaps?  ???  I'm wondering if some crud has lodged in the 3 way and it's jammed.  :-\

TIA!  :y
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Kevin Wood

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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #1 on: 09 January 2019, 09:52:31 »

3 way valves are pretty crude things at the best of times. Maybe it's got a bit of crud stuck in it, or the microswitch inside has died. There's also normally a resistor and a diode that applies DC to the motor to "stall" it in the central position when both heating and water are on which sometimes burns out (I told you they were crude!).

If it's not working in HW mode, I would say it's either jammed and not returning to the "HW" position or the microswitch is dead.

First thing to do is to find the position indicator on the side of the valve and see if it's moving to the correct positons when commanded by the heating programmer. If not, remove the motor and give it a good waggle by hand.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #2 on: 09 January 2019, 10:17:03 »

When three way valves start going wrong, you can usually get away with giving them a whack to start them moving. Of course, this method only works for a short time, until they give up altogether.
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #3 on: 09 January 2019, 10:41:26 »

The motor whirs, but the position switch dosn't move.  I can move it by hand though....

I gave it a whack, but it's still not behaving.
 
I guess I'll have to take the head unit off and manipulate the valve by hand?

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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #4 on: 09 January 2019, 10:47:24 »

The motor whirs, but the position switch dosn't move.  I can move it by hand though....

I gave it a whack, but it's still not behaving.
 
I guess I'll have to take the head unit off and manipulate the valve by hand?
Why not just replace it? They're cheap enough and it's only a couple of compression joints and a bit of simple wiring. Just make sure you make a note of which wires go where.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #5 on: 09 January 2019, 10:49:40 »

Sounds like something has broken in the drivechain between the motor and valve, then.

The motor normally runs until the valve is open and then stalls, once the motor is de-energised, a spring returns the valve to the opriginal position.

Might be worth taking it apart and checking that the gear on the motor is meshing with the valve.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #6 on: 09 January 2019, 10:50:51 »

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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #7 on: 09 January 2019, 11:01:45 »

Just watched the video that Uncle STEMO posted (I like that guy, he explains things very well.  :y) and I have the same Honeywell 3 way valve as he does.

When I move the position switch, there is no resistance.  When he moved his in the video, you could hear the motor moving?  ???  :-\

Strange though that this has happened after running the system with a cleaner and draining/flushing a few times.  :-\
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #8 on: 09 January 2019, 11:10:28 »

Hot Water is the standard position on a 3-way valve, so if it is ok when the programmer is only calling for central heating, then it is working, but it sounds like you have some crud blocking it from springing back to the default position.
If you are getting 240v through the orange wire to the 3-port valve when the hot water is calling for heat, then the electrics are ok.

I would drain down again (assuming you don't have isolators either side of the 3-way valve), take it apart and clean it through, if that doesn't work, just replace it, as Stemo says, they are not expensive.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #9 on: 09 January 2019, 11:24:01 »

Just watched the video that Uncle STEMO posted (I like that guy, he explains things very well.  :y) and I have the same Honeywell 3 way valve as he does.

When I move the position switch, there is no resistance.  When he moved his in the video, you could hear the motor moving?  ???  :-\

Strange though that this has happened after running the system with a cleaner and draining/flushing a few times.  :-\
As Kevin said, the linkage between the motor and the valve has broken. You can fiddle about with it but I doubt it would last long, even if you got it to work.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #10 on: 09 January 2019, 11:31:31 »

I think on the Honeywell valves, you can just replace the motor, meaning you don't need to drain it.

Given that the failure seems to be between the motor and the valve, and that you've just filled it with inhibitor, I think that would be worth doing.

You can always buy the whole valve, swap the motor part and keep the plumbing half for when you next have the system drained.

As to why it failed, maybe the gears were getting weak, and some crud got into it as part of the flushing process and this was the last straw?
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #11 on: 09 January 2019, 12:20:01 »

I've just removed the head off the valve and the valve moves freely, but not very far about 20 degrees or so? or in others words from 3.30/9.30 to 2.30/8.30 on a clockface.... If you see what I mean?  ::)



Does that sound right?
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #12 on: 09 January 2019, 12:23:43 »

I've just removed the head off the valve and the valve moves freely, but not very far about 20 degrees or so? or in others words from 3.30/9.30 to 2.30/8.30 on a clockface.... If you see what I mean?  ::)



Does that sound right?
I've no idea  ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #13 on: 09 January 2019, 12:26:40 »

I've just removed the head off the valve and the valve moves freely, but not very far about 20 degrees or so? or in others words from 3.30/9.30 to 2.30/8.30 on a clockface.... If you see what I mean?  ::)



Does that sound right?
I've no idea  ;D

Thanks!  :y
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #14 on: 09 January 2019, 12:30:33 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #15 on: 09 January 2019, 12:43:09 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....
This is a forum full of bodgers repairers.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #16 on: 09 January 2019, 12:52:03 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....

Go wash your mouth out with soap and water BG!  :o  :P
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #17 on: 09 January 2019, 13:02:45 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....

Go wash your mouth out with soap and water BG!  :o  :P

Yes, you should pay through the nose for a professional to bodge it.

(P.S., remove the Honeywell valve head and actuate the valve manually to see if its sticking)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #18 on: 09 January 2019, 13:16:57 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....

Go wash your mouth out with soap and water BG!  :o  :P

Yes, you should pay through the nose for a professional to bodge it.

(P.S., remove the Honeywell valve head and actuate the valve manually to see if its sticking)

Done that and the valve moves freely, but not very far.  Not sure if this is normal or not (see above), so I'm off to the local plumbing supplies to inspect theirs. Maybe buy a new one.  ::)

I'm being told elsewhere (diynot.com) that it's my thermostat, as that's what instructs the boiler not the 3 way.  :-\  Can't see how draining down etc could affect the thermostat though....  :-\
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #19 on: 09 January 2019, 13:42:10 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....

Go wash your mouth out with soap and water BG!  :o  :P

Yes, you should pay through the nose for a professional to bodge it.

(P.S., remove the Honeywell valve head and actuate the valve manually to see if its sticking)

Done that and the valve moves freely, but not very far.  Not sure if this is normal or not (see above), so I'm off to the local plumbing supplies to inspect theirs. Maybe buy a new one.  ::)

I'm being told elsewhere (diynot.com) that it's my thermostat, as that's what instructs the boiler not the 3 way.  :-\  Can't see how draining down etc could affect the thermostat though....  :-\


On the the next episode of cowboy landords sir Tig from wuzelshire.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #20 on: 09 January 2019, 14:15:31 »

It's about time sir Tig that you paid a professional to fix your heating, instead of continually bodgeing it....

Go wash your mouth out with soap and water BG!  :o  :P

Yes, you should pay through the nose for a professional to bodge it.

(P.S., remove the Honeywell valve head and actuate the valve manually to see if its sticking)

Done that and the valve moves freely, but not very far.  Not sure if this is normal or not (see above), so I'm off to the local plumbing supplies to inspect theirs. Maybe buy a new one.  ::)

I'm being told elsewhere (diynot.com) that it's my thermostat, as that's what instructs the boiler not the 3 way.  :-\  Can't see how draining down etc could affect the thermostat though....  :-\

If the valve motor was running constantly in any scenario, then there's a problem with the valve. :y
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #21 on: 09 January 2019, 14:39:43 »



Done that and the valve moves freely, but not very far.  Not sure if this is normal or not (see above), so I'm off to the local plumbing supplies to inspect theirs. Maybe buy a new one.  ::)

I'm being told elsewhere (diynot.com) that it's my thermostat, as that's what instructs the boiler not the 3 way.  :-\  Can't see how draining down etc could affect the thermostat though....  :-\

Far be it from me to cast aspersions on another forum user (but I will anyway), but the DIYnot advice sounds like bobbins. The thermostat is a simple beast, when heating or hot water is "on" (be it by timer or always on) it checks the actual water temp vs target temp and calls the boiler to fire (if required), triggers the pump to spin and triggers the change in the relevant diverter valve. The diverter valve then goes from closed to open and sends a signal back to say its done it. I *believe* that the thermostat looks for this signal, and will lock out your system as a safety measure if it doesn't get the response its expecting. Hence why there are a number of wires to the valve head, otherwise all that would be required are +ve and -ve and ground.

Your boiler fires and power is getting to the valve head. Sounds pretty much like its doing its job to me...If the motor spins but the arm doesn't move, then that's your culprit.

Personally I don't think resistance in the valve is a factor, but you could test this by unscrewing the valve head from the body then setting the hot water going. If you get the same result (ie motor spins for a bit, the arm on the valve head doesn't move then the boiler locks out), which I bet you will, then you've eliminated the valve body from your enquiries.  :y

I've only installed pipework for combi systems up to now. So I only have experience with the 1 in 1 out type valves that are used on central heating systems with multiple zones. But they work on an identical principle and the amount of articulation you are getting from the valve head sounds about right to me.

« Last Edit: 09 January 2019, 14:42:45 by jimmy944 »
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #22 on: 09 January 2019, 14:52:13 »

Thanks Jimmy and yes I agree with you on the thermostat.  :y

I checked a 3 way valve in the local plumbing supplier and they don't move very far, so I think the actual valve is OK and as we've been saying all along its the motor.

They had the same one in stock at the plumbing shop........ 101.something!  :o  That was including VAT though.  :y  ;D

I think I'll shop around and use the immersion heater for a while.  :)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #23 on: 09 January 2019, 15:07:11 »

Worth trying BES. I find them great for plumbing stuff.

https://www.bes.co.uk

Actually, I see they have the Honeywell replacement motor heads.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #24 on: 09 January 2019, 15:09:11 »

Don't use pattern parts, and check that you inform your insurance afterwards as it could be classed as modification.. :D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #25 on: 09 January 2019, 15:40:03 »

If you've got a multi-meter, rule out the thermostat.

There should be 5 wires going into the 3-way valve; they are normally coloured, blue, green/yellow, white, grey and orange.
The 2 that deal with the hot water side are the orange and white wires.

If you open up the wiring box and are ok with a multimeter, you can very quickly check.

With the programmer set to turn the hot water on, check the voltage between neutral and the orange wire - if the thermostat is calling for heat, you should get 240v.  If the Thermostat is not calling for heat, then you should see 240v between the neutral and grey wires.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #26 on: 09 January 2019, 17:38:55 »

Having recently changed the head on my 3-way valve it is a fairly simple thing to check ..(mine is a Myson) ..

With the head removed the backplate shows where to position the D shaped spindle for either DHW (Domestic Hot Water) - D Vertical in my case, CH (Central Heating) - D horizontal - or both - D at 45 degrees .. so the total maximum movement of the valve spindle is 90 degrees.

Still with the head removed, but with the system powered, playing with the heating controls and the tank thermostat you should be able to get the motor to drive between the required positions  (the Myson has 2 neon lights which helps).

In my case the head was not moving the D shaped socket despite the motor whirring and the neon lights changing ... so my guess was the drive had either sheared or the gears had stripped. A new head unit solved the problem easily, and heating / hot water works as they should.

Nice thing about the manual selection indications was we could still have a manually selectable system, using no more than a pair of pliers, to give us what we needed whilst awaiting the new head units arrival and me fitting it ...... :)

HTH
« Last Edit: 09 January 2019, 17:41:01 by Entwood »
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #27 on: 09 January 2019, 17:41:13 »

In fact, the end diagnosis is very similar to that of your BMW. Motor not attached to anything useful any more. ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #28 on: 09 January 2019, 17:49:00 »

The motor whirs, but the position switch dosn't move.  I can move it by hand though....

I gave it a whack, but it's still not behaving.
 
I guess I'll have to take the head unit off and manipulate the valve by hand?
Why not just replace it? They're cheap enough and it's only a couple of compression joints and a bit of simple wiring. Just make sure you make a note of which wires go where.

Sounds simple in isolation. In reality it means water pissing everywhere and poor old Tigger's demise due to electrocution.  :)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #29 on: 09 January 2019, 17:52:57 »

It would be a fitting tribute to bury him with his elderly and recently demised BMW. :)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #30 on: 09 January 2019, 17:55:00 »

The motor whirs, but the position switch dosn't move.  I can move it by hand though....

I gave it a whack, but it's still not behaving.
 
I guess I'll have to take the head unit off and manipulate the valve by hand?
Why not just replace it? They're cheap enough and it's only a couple of compression joints and a bit of simple wiring. Just make sure you make a note of which wires go where.

Sounds simple in isolation. In reality it means water pissing everywhere and poor old Tigger's demise due to electrocution.  :)

At least it would be a quick end!  :y

And the Beemer will probably out live you M'lud!  :)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #31 on: 09 January 2019, 18:07:03 »

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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #32 on: 09 January 2019, 18:17:34 »

This should be suitable!  :)
Nine grand. You could probably get a plumber to do the job for you for that amount, what with living outside London.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #33 on: 09 January 2019, 18:17:56 »

This should be suitable!  :)
Does it come with a free replacement BMW? Two birds with one stone... ::)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #34 on: 09 January 2019, 18:18:39 »

This should be suitable!  :)
a bit pricey at 9 grand  ;D
i can sell you one including fitting for half that  :P
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #35 on: 09 January 2019, 18:31:32 »

This should be suitable!  :)

At that price obviously a reputable supplier with 79.2% positive feedback on 14 sales. :o :o :o

Lord Opti would order a brace just to keep a spare one on the shelf, like he keeps the Signum as a backup car for his Indian made Oxford Ambassador. :P :P :P
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #36 on: 09 January 2019, 18:47:42 »

This should be suitable!  :)

At that price obviously a reputable supplier with 79.2% positive feedback on 14 sales. :o :o :o

Lord Opti would order a brace just to keep a spare one on the shelf, like he keeps the Signum as a backup car for his Indian made Oxford Ambassador. :P :P :P

I believe they still manufacture the Royal Enfield 500cc single. At least it can be fixed by the side of the road. :y
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #37 on: 09 January 2019, 19:55:03 »

This should be suitable!  :)

At that price obviously a reputable supplier with 79.2% positive feedback on 14 sales. :o :o :o

Lord Opti would order a brace just to keep a spare one on the shelf, like he keeps the Signum as a backup car for his Indian made Oxford Ambassador. :P :P :P

I believe they still manufacture the Royal Oilfield 500cc single. At least it can be fixed by the side of the road. :y

FTFY where it is an old British design. ::)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #38 on: 09 January 2019, 21:11:45 »

This is more like it, a pattern part!  :)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #39 on: 09 January 2019, 21:20:42 »

This is more like it, a pattern part!  :)
Cheapskate.
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #40 on: 10 January 2019, 07:49:51 »

You do realise a pattern part will leak/break/both approx. 3 milliseconds after fitment,the system will go into meltdown,your house will blow up and you will die don't you? :D ;D ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #41 on: 10 January 2019, 09:40:45 »

You do realise a pattern part will leak/break/both approx. 3 milliseconds after fitment,the system will go into meltdown,your house will blow up and you will die don't you? :D ;D ;D

At least it's only the electrical bit, so can't leak (anything other than electrons ;D) .. cheap 1/4 turn ball valves are nothing but a pain in the arris in my experience, they always manage to start weeping..
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #42 on: 15 January 2019, 18:47:26 »

So it turned out to be the thermostat afterall....  ::)
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #43 on: 15 January 2019, 19:21:26 »

So it turned out to be the thermostat afterall....  ::)
I thought that might be the problem  ::)

 ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #44 on: 15 January 2019, 22:42:53 »

So it turned out to be the thermostat afterall....  ::)
I thought that might be the problem  ::)

 ;D

Unlike you to keep it to yourself like that Uncle STEMO?  :-\  ::)  ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #45 on: 15 January 2019, 23:35:31 »

So it turned out to be the thermostat afterall....  ::)

That's surprising! -50 man points for me!

Any idea how/what it was doing or not doing to cause the fault?
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #46 on: 16 January 2019, 00:21:05 »

So it turned out to be the thermostat afterall....  ::)

That's surprising! -50 man points for me!

Any idea how/what it was doing or not doing to cause the fault?

Don't know Jimmy.  :-\

It was either a coincidence that it packed up at the same time I ran the cleaner through the system, or the cleaner give the coil in the cylinder a good scour and it now heats the water so quickly that the thermostat died of shock!  :o  ::)  ;D

The old thermostat was 24 years old so....
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #47 on: 16 January 2019, 07:43:21 »

24yrs old and it's broken ??? Tsk,tsk,they just don't make things like they used to :D ;D
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #48 on: 16 January 2019, 09:35:27 »

24yrs old and it's broken ??? Tsk,tsk,they just don't make things like they used to :D ;D

Are we talking about thermostats or millenials?
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Re: No Hot Water!
« Reply #49 on: 16 January 2019, 09:55:32 »

24yrs old and it's broken ??? Tsk,tsk,they just don't make things like they used to :D ;D

Are we talking about thermostats or millenials?

Hookers..
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