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Author Topic: Another piece of history...  (Read 527 times)

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BazaJT

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Another piece of history...
« on: 09 February 2019, 18:50:24 »

...has been found.The wreck of first Japanese battleship to be sunk in WWII has been located off the Solomon Islands.Much like H.M.S.Hood she was originally built as a battlecruiser and was later upgraded to battleship.The Hiei served in both world wars and was finally sunk in 1942 after damage sustained by both ship to ship actions and air attacks which finally led to her being cast adrift from a rescue attempt and left to her fate.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #1 on: 10 February 2019, 15:32:38 »

Yes, an interesting find. 8) 8) :y

Another example of course of the age of the battleship coming to an end due mainly to air power.  As a fast battleship, rebuilt from a battlecruiser, originally designed by a British marine architect, she was flawed as much as the rest of the battlecruisers were and, even with some reinforcement of the deck armour, it was too light to sustain significant levels of falling shells from ships or bombs from aircraft.  Just like HMS Hood in WW2 along with HMS Invincible, HMS Indefatigable and HMS Queen Mary during The Battle of Jutland 31st May to 1st June 1916 in WW1, the Hieiwent due to this fundamental weakness, supported by a report at the time that a magazine blew up, just as with the others. :(
« Last Edit: 10 February 2019, 15:34:38 by Lizzie Zoom »
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kingshott50

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #2 on: 10 February 2019, 17:58:04 »

Our grandad was in the royal marines in ww1 ,we only recently found out he was at the battle of jutland and zeebrugge raid which
He received DSM for taking out the gun turret at the end of the mole only a few made it back to the ship invincible.He then trained our
boys in ww2 . Of course he told no one what he had done WILLIAM KINGSHOTT. He was nominated for VC.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #3 on: 10 February 2019, 18:12:12 »

Our grandad was in the royal marines in ww1 ,we only recently found out he was at the battle of jutland and zeebrugge raid which
He received DSM for taking out the gun turret at the end of the mole only a few made it back to the ship invincible.He then trained our
boys in ww2 . Of course he told no one what he had done WILLIAM KINGSHOTT. He was nominated for VC.

I think you mean the cruiser HMS Vindictive, as the battlecruiser HMS invincible was lost at Jutland.

Your Grandfather was indeed a brave man, and as I understand he was one of the whole 4th Battalion of Royal Marines  that due to their outstanding bravery during the raid were nominated for the Victoria Cross.  However, with so many being nominated it was normal practice then for a ballot to be held to select the final participants of the Medal. Although this allowed for 4 medals to be awarded, strangely only two were finally given.  That does not take away anything from what those men achieved. :y :y
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kingshott50

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #4 on: 10 February 2019, 18:38:58 »

Your right lizzie,we received a letter from a writer who is writing a book about the zeebrugge raid,he sent us his service records.
As long as you arm,he started 1914 age15. I will have a look for it ,its got a list of the ships he served on .my memory is not the best lately.
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BazaJT

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #5 on: 10 February 2019, 20:11:26 »

I think a lot of people who "were there" "did that" were very reticent of talking about what they actually had done.Whether this was so as not to revive the memories of war or a modesty as to their part over and above others who took part in the same battles[some of whom will have died in the attempt]or a mixture of reasons I don't know,but your grandad sounds like he saw more than his fair share kingshott.Long may they all be remembered for the sacrifices[both physical and mental]they made for future generations :y
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Raeturbo

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #6 on: 11 February 2019, 12:31:26 »

Wasn’t the hood sank by a lucky shot by the bismark that landed up in the main ammunition store?
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #7 on: 11 February 2019, 17:03:12 »

Wasn’t the hood sank by a lucky shot by the bismark that landed up in the main ammunition store?

No, the German Battlecruiser Prinz Eugen was first fired on by HMS Hood as she closed in on her and the Bismark, which Hood initially misidentified as the Prinz Eugen and fired on the leading ship, Prinz Eugen from her 'A' and 'B' forward turrets.   The German ships held their fire for at least two minutes as both HMS Hood and the accompanying HMS Prince of Wales fired off salvos.  Although HMS Hood's error in attacking Prinz Eugen and not the Bismark was soon realised, HMS Hood still continued to fire at the battlecruiser whilst the Prince of Wales fired on Bismark  It is believed from witnesses of the time that Prinz Eugen fired off two salvos at the Hood after the initial delay, HMS Hood was still turning to port to allow her aft guns to lay fire on the German ships by allowing more of her starboard side so as to present her main X and Y turrets turrets to a fire position. But as she executed this turn the Bismark landed a salvo over the Hood exactly where Prinz Eugen had landed her last salvo, at the base of the aft mast. 

The Prinz Eugen salvo had immediately set off explosions over this portion of the deck, when the Bismark's 15" shell hit.  Witnesses on HMS Prince of Wales reported seeing a giant shaft of fire going up in the air, without any noise, like a massive torch. Then immediately the rear decks exploded, the stern blew off and with the whole ship enveloped by smoke, the bows blew off.  The middle section sank, and the stern and bow sections disappeared two minutes later.  Within 3 minutes 1415 men had been killed, with just 3 left bobbing in the water as survivors, one of whom my father knew well, a CPO Ted Briggs.

The Hood had the defects known from Jutland days with the British battlecruisers, with weak deck armour so she was a "fast battleship", just like the Japanese HieiHMS Hood had 8 times 15" main armament, that matched Bismark's, but although when Hood was built in 1917 her top speed was considered fast, at 32 knots, for such a large war ship, she paid for that by having the aforementioned weak deck armour, added to that by 1941 her top speed was reduced to 30 knots, which was equal to the top speed of Bismark.  Therefore, although the Hood was a good match for the Bismark in so many ways, the latter had the massive advantage of having heavy armour on her decks along with her hull plates, let alone being a very modern battleship.

No, it has to be said that the lessons that should have been learnt at Jutland were not followed through with, due to no doubt the continuing arrogance of the Senior Service, the Royal Navy.  Although her fire control may have been greatly improved since the Great War, that caused the loss of the three battlecruisers at Jutland, it was still not sufficient to stop what is now considered as a catastrophic flash over on HMS Hood from the aft magazine to the forward one that took off both stern and bow sections, and would have instantly killed any man below decks, probably about 1200 of the 1415 killed, instantly.

A sad day, only revenged by the sinking of the Bismark by the likes of the battleships HMS King George V and HMS Rodney, combined first with the crippling of her by air power, on 27th May 1941 which cost the lives of 2,131 German sailors.

May all 3,546 British and German sailors lost be remembered. RIP.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2019, 17:09:12 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Raeturbo

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #8 on: 11 February 2019, 17:48:02 »

Wow, nice reply. As said, RIP to all the poor souls.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #9 on: 11 February 2019, 17:53:09 »

Wow, nice reply. As said, RIP to all the poor souls.

My pleasure :y :y
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kingshott50

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #10 on: 11 February 2019, 18:10:27 »

Nice one lizzie, they were all heroes  :y
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #11 on: 11 February 2019, 19:19:07 »

Technically, the Bismark was sunk buy a single torpedo (fired from an Ark Royal StringbagSwordfish) finally being detonated by the forces exerted on it following several hours of being jammed in one of the rudders. This blast split the hull at a seam approximately 20ft forward of the stern crippling the stern gear and flooding the aft end. Together with the flooding forward from the earlier relatively minor damage sustained in the exchange with Hood/PoW, she became a sitting duck and following a close range pounding, eventually foundered, rolled over and sank.

Had the Bismark lookouts been a bit sharper, the torpedo would have missed as she accelerated forwards. The Royal Navy came close to losing a lot more than HMS Hood. In spite of the limited steering and speed, she almost made it to the relative safety of Brest.

Dr Robert Ballard, of Titanic fame, located and surveyed Bismark and found the hull to be fundamentally complete. His book detailing both the events leading upto the final battle and then the search and discovery of the wreck is a fascinating read :y
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STEMO

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #12 on: 11 February 2019, 19:22:24 »

I've just had a right old google, and........
Technically, the Bismark was sunk buy a single torpedo (fired from an Ark Royal StringbagSwordfish) finally being detonated by the forces exerted on it following several hours of being jammed in one of the rudders. This blast split the hull at a seam approximately 20ft forward of the stern crippling the stern gear and flooding the aft end. Together with the flooding forward from the earlier relatively minor damage sustained in the exchange with Hood/PoW, she became a sitting duck and following a close range pounding, eventually foundered, rolled over and sank.

Had the Bismark lookouts been a bit sharper, the torpedo would have missed as she accelerated forwards. The Royal Navy came close to losing a lot more than HMS Hood. In spite of the limited steering and speed, she almost made it to the relative safety of Brest.

Dr Robert Ballard, of Titanic fame, located and surveyed Bismark and found the hull to be fundamentally complete. His book detailing both the events leading upto the final battle and then the search and discovery of the wreck is a fascinating read :y
Fixed
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #13 on: 11 February 2019, 19:23:27 »

I've just had a right old snooze, and........
Technically, the Bismark was sunk buy a single torpedo (fired from an Ark Royal StringbagSwordfish) finally being detonated by the forces exerted on it following several hours of being jammed in one of the rudders. This blast split the hull at a seam approximately 20ft forward of the stern crippling the stern gear and flooding the aft end. Together with the flooding forward from the earlier relatively minor damage sustained in the exchange with Hood/PoW, she became a sitting duck and following a close range pounding, eventually foundered, rolled over and sank.

Had the Bismark lookouts been a bit sharper, the torpedo would have missed as she accelerated forwards. The Royal Navy came close to losing a lot more than HMS Hood. In spite of the limited steering and speed, she almost made it to the relative safety of Brest.

Dr Robert Ballard, of Titanic fame, located and surveyed Bismark and found the hull to be fundamentally complete. His book detailing both the events leading upto the final battle and then the search and discovery of the wreck is a fascinating read :y
Fixed
:P
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Another piece of history...
« Reply #14 on: 11 February 2019, 19:54:05 »

Technically, the Bismark was sunk buy a single torpedo (fired from an Ark Royal StringbagSwordfish) finally being detonated by the forces exerted on it following several hours of being jammed in one of the rudders. This blast split the hull at a seam approximately 20ft forward of the stern crippling the stern gear and flooding the aft end. Together with the flooding forward from the earlier relatively minor damage sustained in the exchange with Hood/PoW, she became a sitting duck and following a close range pounding, eventually foundered, rolled over and sank.

Had the Bismark lookouts been a bit sharper, the torpedo would have missed as she accelerated forwards. The Royal Navy came close to losing a lot more than HMS Hood. In spite of the limited steering and speed, she almost made it to the relative safety of Brest.

Dr Robert Ballard, of Titanic fame, located and surveyed Bismark and found the hull to be fundamentally complete. His book detailing both the events leading upto the final battle and then the search and discovery of the wreck is a fascinating read :y

You are right about the torpedoed damaging Bismark's twin rudders, which actually forced her to follow a circular course.  Before that the engagement with Hood and Prince of Wales had caused a massive fuel oil loss on the Bismark and the speed of her had been greatly reduced.  The accompanying Prinz Eugen was ordered to leave Bismarkto her fate and speed on to the safety of her port. Hitler was not interested in any rescue attempt and would not allow the Luftwaffe to launch any counter attack. He doubted the worth of these battleships. Admiral Donitz had convinced him that more U-Boats were what was needed to win the Battle of the Atlantic, not vulnerable surface ships, a point that would have proved exactly right if the additional, and advanced U-Boats had been built in the numbers required from 1940.

So, the aforementioned torpedo did badly weaken the Bismark and cripple her, but it was finally the battering from the Royal Navy battleship and cruisers that fatally damaged her, with additional torpedo strikes from the RN ships doing significant damage, along with the decision of Hitler's that finally sealed her fate. In addition German survivors have claimed they actually scuttled their ship to rob the British of a claim of complete victory, although that is what it was, although so many factors were involved to achieve it.

The Bismark was no where near the safety of Brest as she had no chance to make it to that port, some 600 miles from where she was sunk. At even her top speed of 30 knots, she had no time or means to reach there. ;)
« Last Edit: 11 February 2019, 20:03:08 by Lizzie Zoom »
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