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Author Topic: Isofix anchors to facelift estate  (Read 1159 times)

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mandula

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Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« on: 27 April 2019, 20:54:11 »

Just installed Isofix anchors to my estate. Found good ones from ebay just about 50 euros for two + post. Job took about 2 hours with all the thinking process and actual job.

Here is a link to finnish Opel forum, you can find pics detailed the process. Also explained it, but in finnish, maybe I can translate it later here with pics.

Easy job and works better than from factory, I believe  :y

https://www.opelclubfinland.fi/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=254105#p2415054
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #1 on: 27 April 2019, 20:59:57 »

That looks to be a good mod .... I didn't know that  kind of modification existed. Kids seats fit far better with ISOfix than just with a seat belt.
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #2 on: 27 April 2019, 21:51:05 »

Yep, that was the reason for this mod. Way better selection of seats and more secure.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #3 on: 27 April 2019, 22:58:24 »

Agreed with the principle of the idea, but question the integrity of the attachment points following bending in a vice...

Not sure that I would be comfortable with my kids attached to them in a decent smash :-\
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Nick W

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #4 on: 27 April 2019, 23:01:32 »

Agreed with the principle of the idea, but question the integrity of the attachment points following bending in a vice...

Not sure that I would be comfortable with my kids attached to them in a decent smash :-\


It's only a small bend in a  mild steel bracket. That's bolted to a sheetmetal structure.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #5 on: 27 April 2019, 23:03:47 »

The loops look to be welded to the bracket, and it's the loops that have to be bent in relation to the bracket* ;)

*AIUI looking at it on the phone.
« Last Edit: 27 April 2019, 23:07:01 by Doctor Gollum »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #6 on: 27 April 2019, 23:04:15 »

I did the research and bought one of those Ford isofix brackets when my 4 year old was born with the intention to see if would fit in my 2003 Elite saloon but never got round to it.

The isofix mounts fix the child seat much more securely than a belt - having used both types a lot over the past 4.5 years I am still unsure which is 'better'. The isofix seats we have won't stop beeping until safely clipped in whereas the belted ones can be insecurely fitted without it being obvious. None are actually easy to fit but the isofix ones do have bases that stay in the car which allowed is to quickly remove the baby seat and carry it into the house with sleeping baby in the seat.

In a crash the rigid fixings will accelerate/decelerate the child seat as quickly as the bodyshell but the belted seat will benefit from some cushioning from the belt and seat cushions :-\
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Andy H

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #7 on: 27 April 2019, 23:12:46 »

Agreed with the principle of the idea, but question the integrity of the attachment points following bending in a vice...

Not sure that I would be comfortable with my kids attached to them in a decent smash :-\


It's only a small bend in a  mild steel bracket. That's bolted to a sheetmetal structure.
I can't really work out what was being bent :-\ I wouldn't be happy bending the hoops due to the risk of weakening them.

If the hoops were too high/low then it would have been better to drill the holes in the body in the right place first time.

If the gauge of the sheet metal is a concern then spreader plates (ie big washers) should be used to spread the load.

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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #8 on: 28 April 2019, 07:27:24 »

Bending the loops was necessary as the fixing surface on car was tilted so loops would be pointing too much upwards when bolded in.

Bending angle is so small that I dont see risk of weakening the loops.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #9 on: 28 April 2019, 08:28:19 »

....

Not sure that I would be comfortable with my kids attached to them in a decent smash :-\

In the next stage seat that my 3yr old grand daughter uses, the Isofix fittings just hold the seat in place and she's restrained by the car's seat belt. But I understand where you're coming from with some of the seats for younger kids where they're strapped to a seat that is then held in place with Isofix loops.
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #10 on: 28 April 2019, 09:04:53 »

Just calculated that loops would hold about 1600 kg's if weakened by half from original tensile strength.

Hitting 200 km/h to wall would produce about 266 g-force causing 33 kg of child+seat weight about 900 kg's.

So probably some other things broke before those bended loops.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2019, 09:09:00 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #11 on: 28 April 2019, 09:30:34 »

When I we're a lad, sat in the back of dads van, we relied on gravity.
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #12 on: 28 April 2019, 09:30:45 »

Just calculated that loops would hold about 1600 kg's if weakened by half from original tensile strength.

Hitting 200 km/h to wall would produce about 266 g-force causing 33 kg of child+seat weight about 8800 kg's.

So probably some other things broke before those bended loops in "normal" crashes. Even unbended loops would not hold against that 200 kmh crash. But usually there are also car belds helping when child is past 3 years old.

Some thinkingmistakes edited.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #13 on: 28 April 2019, 11:22:19 »

Just calculated that loops would hold about 1600 kg's if weakened by half from original tensile strength.

Hitting 200 km/h to wall would produce about 266 g-force causing 33 kg of child+seat weight about 900 kg's.

So probably some other things broke before those bended loops.


you can't use actual numbers on an internet forum :o
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #14 on: 28 April 2019, 11:34:36 »

Just calculated that loops would hold about 1600 kg's if weakened by half from original tensile strength.

Hitting 200 km/h to wall would produce about 266 g-force causing 33 kg of child+seat weight about 900 kg's.

So probably some other things broke before those bended loops.


you can't use actual numbers on an internet forum :o

Sorry  ::)

But anyway, bending those loops slightly wont affect safety or strength unless you are going to drive rally on a mountain with your childrens in car.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #15 on: 28 April 2019, 11:48:22 »

When I we're a lad, sat in the back of dads van, we relied on gravity.
Oh yes, those were the days.  ;D Luckily there wasn,t the amount of traffic/crap drivers there are today. :(
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #16 on: 28 April 2019, 12:40:17 »

Bending the loops was necessary as the fixing surface on car was tilted so loops would be pointing too much upwards when bolded in.

Bending angle is so small that I dont see risk of weakening the loops.
It depends on the grade of steel used. Chances are that Ford used a grade with good ductile characteristics and no harm done.

The problem that you might have is that safety equipment is normally inspected for signs of deformation and condemned if deformation is visible.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #17 on: 28 April 2019, 13:40:33 »

And a 200 km/h impact is a head on on country road or spinning into the barrier on a motorway... Neither of which has ever happened...  :-X

Not against the idea, just questioning the execution (no pun intended)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #18 on: 28 April 2019, 13:52:06 »

No pun taken, I get the questioning but when handling the actual product it could be noticed that there wont be any issues recarding to safety. Wich you cannot notice from pictures taken.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #19 on: 28 April 2019, 14:39:29 »

The glare on the post bending picture makes it difficult to see much of anything, but the only way to be certain that bending the loops has had no effect would be to xray the piece before and after bending.

Still not sure that I would chance it with my kids :-\
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #20 on: 28 April 2019, 16:20:22 »

This is all very theoretic discussion going on here, but I don't believe Ford xrays those loops after bending them in shape before welding and they bend them 90 degs several times. But of course everyone handles this as they please, I see no safety issues here.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #21 on: 28 April 2019, 16:31:42 »

This is all very theoretic discussion going on here, but I don't believe Ford xrays those loops after bending them in shape before welding and they bend them 90 degs several times. But of course everyone handles this as they please, I see no safety issues here.
Your own maths suggest that they won't survive a solid impact at speed...

It would be interesting to see what your insurers position is as well. They're your kids though...
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #22 on: 28 April 2019, 16:43:01 »

Once the seat is secure enough to survive a collision that will impart more decelerative G force than the body can withstand it has done its job so no need to over think it .
Arguably, you might be better off with it leaving the vehicle like an ejector seat by then.
For practical purposes, that mod looks good enough and a favourable alternative to just using an adult seatbelt to secure the seat, from a perspective of both convenience and safety. :y
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #23 on: 28 April 2019, 18:23:21 »

This is all very theoretic discussion going on here, but I don't believe Ford xrays those loops after bending them in shape before welding and they bend them 90 degs several times. But of course everyone handles this as they please, I see no safety issues here.
Your own maths suggest that they won't survive a solid impact at speed...

It would be interesting to see what your insurers position is as well. They're your kids though...

They would not survive even without modifications based on my math. Of course my maths do not know all the conditions and are very rough. Maybe lower speed would give some better perspective for outcome.

As said, they do the job and if they dont then I have made some serious overspeeding that my insurance would not like.

By the way, Im now more comfortable to put my kids to seats as they are now really attached to car. Once you isofix them, there is no going back.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2019, 18:25:05 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #24 on: 28 April 2019, 19:18:17 »

I hope you never find out.  ;)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #25 on: 28 April 2019, 20:46:09 »

This is so intersesting case that I ordered one more isofix anchor for testing to hang test load from unmodified and from modified (bent) anchor loop to see is there any difference.

I have tractor I can use to lift and hang 1000 kg's load from each loop one at a time, this is same load that 33 kg child+seat (max load isofix should withstand) causes with g force of 60 (total of 2000 kg on two loops -> 2000 kg / 33 kg = 60,6).

So if one modified loop can withstand 1000 kg of load, two modified loops can withstand 2000 kg and that is far more g force than human body can withstand in crash.

Sorry that I used again actual numbers on internet forum  ::) But just to get clear is there any difference between theory and practice.
« Last Edit: 28 April 2019, 20:48:20 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #26 on: 28 April 2019, 22:16:30 »

This is so intersesting case that I ordered one more isofix anchor for testing to hang test load from unmodified and from modified (bent) anchor loop to see is there any difference.

I have tractor I can use to lift and hang 1000 kg's load from each loop one at a time, this is same load that 33 kg child+seat (max load isofix should withstand) causes with g force of 60 (total of 2000 kg on two loops -> 2000 kg / 33 kg = 60,6).

So if one modified loop can withstand 1000 kg of load, two modified loops can withstand 2000 kg and that is far more g force than human body can withstand in crash.

Sorry that I used again actual numbers on internet forum  ::) But just to get clear is there any difference between theory and practice.
Are you intending to test it until it breaks?

I would be interested to know what happens if you bend the loop to 45 degrees and then pull it straight with your tractor test rig.

I suspect that the grade of steel chosen should accommodate a lot of deformation before any cracking occurs but the danger zone will be near the welds as electric welding (mma/mig/tig) tends to cause hardening of the steel in proximity to the weld.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #27 on: 28 April 2019, 22:25:40 »

If one loop breaks at 1,000kg, the so will the second. Also you are only measuring static load rather than a dynamic shock load such as an accident would produce. Besides it isn't just the loading from a frontal impact you need to consider ;)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #28 on: 29 April 2019, 05:31:06 »

If I can get enough mass gathered, I'll try to get it break. Also it was on my mind to bent other loop even more after first test.

That static 1000 kg load is the dymanic shock load that peaks when 33 kg mass decelerates at 60 g's. . Based on constuction of isofix, all other directions where connection can move are "flexible"/jointed/hinged so most pulling force is caused to loops on frontal impact on car.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #29 on: 29 April 2019, 06:54:14 »

If I can get enough mass gathered, I'll try to get it break. Also it was on my mind to bent other loop even more after first test.

That static 1000 kg load is the dymanic shock load that peaks when 33 kg mass decelerates at 60 g's. . Based on constuction of isofix, all other directions where connection can move are "flexible"/jointed/hinged so most pulling force is caused to loops on frontal impact on car.

Sorry, meant to say "That static 1000 kg load on one loop is the dymanic shock load that peaks when 33 kg mass decelerates at 60 g's." So if one loop does not break when hanging 1000 kg on it, two loops can hold 2000 kg without breaking. But we will see.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #30 on: 29 April 2019, 11:35:50 »

Can't that complicated to make your own bracket that fits perfectly to the car?

Or do they have to be approved by some authority?
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #31 on: 29 April 2019, 11:45:22 »

Can't that complicated to make your own bracket that fits perfectly to the car?

Or do they have to be approved by some authority?

I think that is the safest way to buy premade, price is so low and it is just bolt-on basicly.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #32 on: 29 April 2019, 12:06:31 »

Can't that complicated to make your own bracket that fits perfectly to the car?

Or do they have to be approved by some authority?
I suspect this, and that they're subjected to much more than a single static load test :-\
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #33 on: 29 April 2019, 23:08:18 »

Anyone have the link to the ebay fitting kit for an Omega?
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #34 on: 29 April 2019, 23:27:30 »

Anyone have the link to the ebay fitting kit for an Omega?
I don't think there is one.

The Omega was never type approved for isofix mounts (as far as I know) so you won't get any help from Vauxhall.

Ford sell a retrofit isofix bracket for the focus. Search for Ford 1 357 238. This bracket is a simple symmetrical bracket with two sensibly placed mounting holes. The standard seat belt buckles are attached to the body somewhere behind the rear seat so there is definitely some solid structure there. Your task is to safely attach the Ford bracket to the body.......

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORIGINAL-Ford-ISOFIX-Halterung-Befestigung-Kindersitz-Focus-II-MK2-1357238/181671899904?hash=item2a4c7d3300:g:K3kAAOSwW8RbKKNz

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #35 on: 30 April 2019, 08:20:13 »

Can't that complicated to make your own bracket that fits perfectly to the car?

Or do they have to be approved by some authority?
I suspect this, and that they're subjected to much more than a single static load test :-\

Actually they not only make one, but they do two static load tests (with less load I'm intended to do):

Quote
6.6. Static test requirements.
(...)
6.6.4.2. Forces shall be applied to the static force application device (SFAD) in
forward and oblique directions according to Table 1.

Table 1
Directions of test forces
Forward 0° +- 5°
8 kN +- 0.25 kN

Oblique 75° +- 5° (to both sides of straight forward, or if
any worst case side, or if both side are symmetric,
only one side)
5 kN +- 0.25 kN
https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/doc/2016/wp29grsp/GRSP-60-05e.pdf

Ok, I don't have that fancy static force application device (SFAD), but I'm sure my "test rig" will be good enough  :y
« Last Edit: 30 April 2019, 08:22:36 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #36 on: 30 April 2019, 10:05:00 »

2.22. "Static force application device (SFAD)" means a test fixture that engages the
vehicle ISOFIX anchorages systems and that is used to verify their strength
and the ability of the vehicle or seat structure to limit the rotation in a static
test. The test fixture for lower anchorages and top tethers is described in the
Figures 1 and 2 annex 9, as well as an SFADSL (Support Leg) to assess i-
Size seating positions with regard to the vehicle floor strength. An example
for such an SFADSL is given in Figure 3 of Annex 10."

It is tested in position in the vehicle as the test is as much of the vehicle structure as it is of the isofix attachment.

Ford will have designed the fitting point of the Focus chassis/floorpan to support the brackets in the same way as a manufacturer might design in the attachment points of a towbar.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #37 on: 16 May 2019, 18:48:32 »

Ok, I did some testing. Bolted brand new isofix anchor to IPE-beam, attached 1000 kg's to one unmodified loop and to modified=bent loop (one at a time as my "test rig" cannot lift 2000 kg's  ::) ).

Result: no matter is the loop bent or not, it will not brake and it seems that they behave similar to each other. So it will handle at least 2000 kg/33  kg = 60,6 G-forces and I still believe it is safe to attach my childrens to it.

Here are some pics also:


Assembly to IPE-beam


Bent loop at front and unmodified at back


Test rig


1000 kg's mass


Control lift with unmodified loop


And it is up


Unmodified loop after lift


Now with bent loop


And it is up also


Bent loop after lift


This is the only situation I want to see isofix anchor looking like this..


Same from side


Unmodified loop


Unmodified loop


Bent loop (that paint is peeling off, not metal cracking)


Bent loop (same here, only paint peeling off)

Edit. Resized some pics.

I did not have time to scrape those paints off, I might do that later to check is there any hidden cracks under the paint.
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 18:52:22 by mandula »
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dave the builder

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #38 on: 16 May 2019, 18:56:32 »

By the time you have all argued,tested and decided , the kids will have grown up and left home  ;D
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mandula

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #39 on: 16 May 2019, 19:02:05 »

By the time you have all argued,tested and decided , the kids will have grown up and left home  ;D

Not at all, they have been happily sitting in the car  8)

And this is part of the hobby  :y
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #40 on: 16 May 2019, 19:16:22 »

That's not a dynamic load test... ;) also that beam is alot thicker than the Omega floor pan ::)
Both Ford and Opel suggested consulting the local dealership for advice, which was somewhat more positive than I had expected.

As I said before, they're not my kids...  ;)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #41 on: 16 May 2019, 19:44:59 »

This was not testing floor pan, only does bending the loops cause any harm. It does not.
Also back seats act also as attachment, they are press fitted over anchors so they would not move forward even if I take the bolts out.

What is the difference between dynamic test where peak value would be 2000 kg's mass vs static test with mass of 2000 kg's?

Btw, here is your original worry. Nothing to do with floor pan  ::)

"Agreed with the principle of the idea, but question the integrity of the attachment points following bending in a vice..."
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #42 on: 16 May 2019, 20:12:17 »

That may have been the first concern that sprung to mind, but it is far from the only consideration  ;)

I hope you never find out whether they will hold up in a serious impact.

BTW, what did your insurers say on the subject?
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #43 on: 16 May 2019, 21:20:31 »

I did not ask insurers, I dont know why should I. Would it prevent any crashes?

It is enough that those will hold far more than they normally be tested. And they are safer than only with belt hold seats for 0-2yrs.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #44 on: 16 May 2019, 21:40:44 »

If something serious happens and your car is inspected, the authorities will know that the Omega B was never offered with ISOFIX. Your insurers will wash their hands of any claim as a) it is an un declared modification, and b) is a retrofitted safety device that the car structure was never designed to secure.

But, it's your kids...

Some food for thought...

https://www.verywellfamily.com/is-latch-or-seatbelt-safer-for-car-seat-installation-4135880
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #45 on: 16 May 2019, 22:05:02 »

And a video just to put your mind at ease...

Fast forward to about 26 seconds if it helps...

Now tell me how satisfied you are with your test ;)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #46 on: 17 May 2019, 04:36:15 »

Im still very satisfied with my test and also with my isofix installation. As I have mentioned.

Do you think anyone, with or without isofix, would have survived in that Omega crashing 200 kmh basicly to wall?

Do you already understand is there difference between static load and dynamic load test with the same maximum loads (static and peak load are same)?

Have you inspected how that isofix anchor is fixed to sheet metal and also between back seat and sheet metal and noticed how well it is fixed?

This is pointless discussion if you dont understand the basics in this matter.

Sure I can make another test by pulling that anchor installed in car with load of 800 kg as it is tested (static load test), but then I need spare car for that. Anyone want to donate one?

And I do know they are my kids, dont need to mention it on every post  :P
« Last Edit: 17 May 2019, 04:38:27 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #47 on: 17 May 2019, 08:44:41 »

Whilst that might be a fairly brutal test, it is pretty much how your car will behave if you stuffed it into the back of a pile up on a motorway :-X

My repetition is to remind you that they are your flesh and blood, not luggage. But then you know that. and whilst I might not entirely grasp the maths involved, I have an uneasy feeling that neither do you.

I maintain that whilst the appeal of what you are trying to achieve is understandable, the practical application is not and I hope you come to your senses before it's too late.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #48 on: 17 May 2019, 09:39:44 »

Ok, so if you don't understand it, then I wont either.  :y

This is pretty much like changing brake pads or doing other safety related maintenance to your car. If you are not expert (I mean like educated car mechanic specialist), then you should not do it. Or would you do it anyway? I bet you are not calling your insurer to be sure can you change your brake pads or wheels by yourself, what if brakes fail or wheel drop of at high speeds..

Common sense is usually what it takes, it is same here. Little engineering skills will also help.
When you install that isofix anchor in, you can inspect that installation and think it through and then decide is it safe for use or not. That is what I did here and I decided that it is safe for use.

So I'm very much in my senses from the beginning.
I'm happy to receive advises and tips, but I don't need any guesses with no or very little knowledge behind them (like why I should do dynamic load test instead of static load test, as I know the result is the same and also I know how it is tested by authorities = by static test). I understand it is sometimes hard to get all the info and facts out from the pictures provided, maybe this might be also a problem here.

No offence.
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #49 on: 17 May 2019, 10:16:08 »

That you don't see the need to inform your insurance company suggests that deep down you know that they would probably have something to say on the subject.

I can't believe that I am the only person here who thinks that it's a bad idea, regardless of the thought behind it :-\
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #50 on: 17 May 2019, 11:10:06 »

Well of course insurance company cannot give approval for isofix anchors fitted to car that does not have them from factory.
They don't even give approval for seat belt installation for old car where they are not fitted from factory (or, they cannot stop you putting them but insurance may not be valid for those).

We can end this discussion to conclusion that if you do not have made certified tests for any installation or repair you have made to your car AND also have approval for that from your insurance company, you should not do it. I see no point going through these bizarre arguments that have nothing to do with real world.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2019, 11:13:49 by mandula »
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #51 on: 17 May 2019, 11:11:28 »

<looks at calendar>

Is it time to start talking about winter tyres again yet? ;)
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #52 on: 17 May 2019, 11:15:18 »

<looks at calendar>

Is it time to start talking about winter tyres again yet? ;)

 ;D
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #53 on: 17 May 2019, 11:51:43 »

<looks at calendar>

Is it time to start talking about winter tyres again yet? ;)
I'll put some trays of water in the freezer (for testing tyre purposes) :y
it could be winter 2020 before we find and test some black round ones though  :P
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #54 on: 17 May 2019, 13:27:00 »

<looks at calendar>

Is it time to start talking about winter tyres again yet? ;)

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #55 on: 17 May 2019, 13:43:22 »

<looks at calendar>

Is it time to start talking about winter tyres again yet? ;)


Even grumpy cat has succumbed to the tedium now. :(

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/17/grumpy-cat-dies-at-the-age-of-seven-after-falling-ill-9585649/
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #56 on: 17 May 2019, 13:56:18 »

Poor grumpy cat - grumpy no more!

I wonder if it really did net the owners ~$100m, or if that's just Internet sensationalism .. I mean, nobody is paying them for each meme impression..

* aaronjb awaits the lawsuit for posting the image above ;D
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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #57 on: 20 May 2019, 10:18:57 »

I used to ride in seats like this when I was a kid. Apparently I survived.

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #58 on: 20 May 2019, 11:11:58 »

I used to ride in seats like this when I was a kid. Apparently I survived.



Better than this  ;D

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Re: Isofix anchors to facelift estate
« Reply #59 on: 20 May 2019, 12:24:12 »

Oh, I had a proper child seat when I was a lad, but it was bolted to a Triumph Herald, so might as well have been cardboard in all likelihood. ;D
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