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Please play nicely.  No one wants to listen/read a keyboard warriors rants....

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Author Topic: Wheel of misfortune  (Read 1222 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #60 on: 15 June 2019, 19:37:08 »

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle ??? ???
Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion. :-X

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained... ::)

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept ;)

Sorry, but explain how even an experienced HGV mechanic ( the one who 'maintained' that was one of those), that I do give all due respect to, be an expert in law? :o ::)

In addition when has ignorance or young age stopped a full prosecution when others have been killed with a conviction and heavy penalty when that person has been a driver, especially of an HGV that carries additional responsibility ? ::)
« Last Edit: 15 June 2019, 19:41:36 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #61 on: 15 June 2019, 21:18:33 »

That you ask the question suggests that you believe all mechanics to be corrupt or inept. Or both. And I am angry that you would even deign to suggest either even if Tilda doesn't take offense.  >:(

There was nothing to suggest the the truck in Bath had had any actual maintenance or actually been inspected by a qualified mechanic... Let alone undergone a six weekly inspection in accordance with VOSA/DfT and Operator licensing requirements.

Oh, and the 20 year old driver was found not guilty by a jury, not the judge and had he had a bit more self respect he could have refused to drive the truck which he knew to be defective and would have prevented him from ever being involved.

Of course, being a legal expert you would already know all of that. :-X

By the way, here's a link to the reporting of the verdict...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bath-tipper-truck-crash-mitzi-steady-haulage-lorry-out-of-control-hill-somerset-matthew-gordon-a7550526.html
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Entwood

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #62 on: 15 June 2019, 22:20:26 »

I think in this case, the drivers age was taken into consideration. being a young lad working for a dubious employer.

Had it been an experienced driver, the situation would have never arrived.

He was 20, so a man.  Do you really believe that anyone who has killed 4 people when driving an HGV can be cleared of all charges just because they are 20, if the facts of the legal case are such that he in fact considered reasonably guilty of driving a mechanically unroadworthy vehicle ??? ???
Tilda is, iirc, an HGV mechanic so I would defer to his expertise/opinion. :-X

Besides, as a new driver, the chap wouldn't have had the experience or knowledge to deal with that scenario in a car, let alone a truck and especially not one found to have been woefully maintained... ::)

Back on track, Entwoods' findings from yesterday should serve as reason enough to pay more attention to rechecking (or even routine checking of) wheel nuts, even if you don't entirely agree with the concept ;)

Can I just say, for the sake of extreme clarity, that the 3 nuts on the "bad" wheel were not "loose" as such .. I got about 10 degrees of turn at 120 Nm on my torque wrench .. so at a guess they were probably done up to around 100/110 Nm (?) so might never have moved at all. It might be why many people who don't check the nuts never have a problem, because the nuts are tight "enough" without being to the correct torque.

After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   :)
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Nick W

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #63 on: 15 June 2019, 22:42:28 »


After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   :)


sums it up nicely.


Checking wheelnuts has been best practice for decades: my grandfather suggested it to me when I started working on cars in 1987, which was 15years after he retired and stopped driving.


When the difference in work between probably good enough and as good as can reasonably be expected  is so small you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #64 on: 16 June 2019, 00:05:02 »

That you ask the question suggests that you believe all mechanics to be corrupt or inept. Or both. And I am angry that you would even deign to suggest either even if Tilda doesn't take offense.  >:(

There was nothing to suggest the the truck in Bath had had any actual maintenance or actually been inspected by a qualified mechanic... Let alone undergone a six weekly inspection in accordance with VOSA/DfT and Operator licensing requirements.

Oh, and the 20 year old driver was found not guilty by a jury, not the judge and had he had a bit more self respect he could have refused to drive the truck which he knew to be defective and would have prevented him from ever being involved.

Of course, being a legal expert you would already know all of that. :-X

By the way, here's a link to the reporting of the verdict...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/bath-tipper-truck-crash-mitzi-steady-haulage-lorry-out-of-control-hill-somerset-matthew-gordon-a7550526.html

What!!! :o :o :o :o

Please come on DG, look at how I just stated, after originally talking through the legal approach, that with all respect to Tildaas a mechanic, he is just that and not a lawyer which would be very useful to all of us to explain the legal situation in a case of mechanical failures or wheels falling off.

Where, prey, did I imply that all mechanics are either corrupt or inept? How was insulting Tilda?

No, once again you are for some reason taking umbrage with how I want to approach the Varche situation, and that is THE point of this thread, which has all the way through in my posts been about the legal implication of a mechanic / technician / fitter being neglient, problems with materials / parts or just failing to use tools correctly -( you know, this does happen does it not, or are you claiming that never transpires?! ) and the responsibily of the driver when things go wrong out on the road.

At no stage did I suggest, imply, or actually state that ALL mechanics, or even a high proportion of them are corrupt or inept!!

But hey, let's not miss a chance to be difficult with the only lady on this forum to post!  Like one other person at least on here, you just do not like an opinion that is out of line with yours, whether from a lady or a man. ::)

Come on DG, relax and don't take everything so personally, often reading between the lines things that simply are not there.  This is only a car forum, albeit a great one where we can (should)'be able to express our views without fear or failure 8) 8)

« Last Edit: 16 June 2019, 00:11:21 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Sir Tigger QC

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #65 on: 16 June 2019, 01:28:45 »

I wonder whether Varche has got home OK without his wheels falling off?   :-\  ::)  ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #66 on: 16 June 2019, 09:21:24 »

Quote from: Nick W link=topic=145084.msg1906798#msg1906798 up date=1560634948

After 38 years as a Flight Engineer where adherence to procedures, limits, specifications, etc are extremely important some may think I'm a bit OTT on things like this, but thats the way it is for me .. its either right or its wrong ... especially when it only takes a few minutes to check ..   :)


sums it up nicely.


Checking wheelnuts has been best practice for decades: my grandfather suggested it to me when I started working on cars in 1987, which was 15years after he retired and stopped driving.


When the difference in work between probably good enough and as good as can reasonably be expected  is so small you'd have to be an idiot not to do it.

Yes you are right, and I must admit throughout my driving life I have never checked the wheel bolts, after even me replacing wheels, so is it stupidity or ignorance?  With me it is propably both! ;D ;D ;)

Although I have always known the vital imortance of tightening bolts to the correct torque around the engine - that was because I was blessed with training from an uncle who,was a chief mechanic back in the day - I do not ever remember anyone saying you MUST keep checking wheel nuts.

Perhaps that was due to the fact I had company maintained cars and just let the professionals look after them (or my husband sometimes!! :D) and I just drove them.  Was it also due to those early cars for me having steel wheels, not alloys, so we did not have to think of such things as tightening wheel nuts? I would personally welcome views on that one.

Now we have had this thread I would certainly be stupid not to regularly start to check the wheel nuts! ;D ;D :y
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TheBoy

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #67 on: 16 June 2019, 11:07:30 »

I suspect part of the issue is that dads no longer know how to open the bonnet, and thus never teach their kids.

Take tunnie's mates at work - whom I don't know at all, so making assumptions based on tunnie's age - I would wager none of them know how to do basic maintenance.  I think as millennials go, tunnie is quite unusual in being able to do this.

In fact, taken a step further, as everyone knows, I work "in IT" (whatever the hell that means), and because my generation were playing on their Spectrums and C64s, I reckon in my office only a couple of people could do a basic service.


One of the convoy going over to France was a young, bright teenage lass who had not been driving long.  As we got off the ferry in France, I noticed one tyre was way down on pressure and the 2 fronts were very borderline tread. So as I was putting air in (it was 18psi, car was fully loaded with 3 adults and luggage/booze for 10 days), I asked her what prep she had done. "Kissed the bonnet and tapped the steering wheel" was the reply.

I suspect that car, like so many others, gets a 99 "service"/MOT annually (ie, an oil change), and no other work. 
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ronnyd

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Re: Wheel of misfortune
« Reply #68 on: 16 June 2019, 12:52:53 »

I suspect part of the issue is that dads no longer know how to open the bonnet, and thus never teach their kids.

Take tunnie's mates at work - whom I don't know at all, so making assumptions based on tunnie's age - I would wager none of them know how to do basic maintenance.  I think as millennials go, tunnie is quite unusual in being able to do this.

In fact, taken a step further, as everyone knows, I work "in IT" (whatever the hell that means), and because my generation were playing on their Spectrums and C64s, I reckon in my office only a couple of people could do a basic service.


One of the convoy going over to France was a young, bright teenage lass who had not been driving long.  As we got off the ferry in France, I noticed one tyre was way down on pressure and the 2 fronts were very borderline tread. So as I was putting air in (it was 18psi, car was fully loaded with 3 adults and luggage/booze for 10 days), I asked her what prep she had done. "Kissed the bonnet and tapped the steering wheel" was the reply.

I suspect that car, like so many others, gets a 99 "service"/MOT annually (ie, an oil change), and no other work. 
Got the same sort of reply from one of my granddaughters when i asked her about how she maintains her car. Even worse Quikshite did the MOT. ::)
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