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Lizzie Zoom

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BT Broadband Fight
« on: 29 June 2019, 16:23:49 »

I have, in the past with my husband and 'the business' been with BT since 1973.  They have been very good as far as I am concerned with straightforward telephone services.

But recently I have become unhappy with my Broadband speed after originally going from the standard package years ago, through to Affinity fibre, then to Superfast Fibre 1 Unlimited.  I have been checking my speed a lot recently after my other PC / iPad issues, with it seeming to slow down, and I came out two weeks ago with a download speed, with the BT test, of 35.4 Mb/s.

When I was offered on my log in page a chance to upgrade to Superfast Fibre Plus with an "up to" 79 MB/s speed I, like the naive person I am at times on these IT things, thought that will do me.

Two weeks ago I upgraded online and within 24 hours I was informed it was all set up.  Then last Monday I checked my speed; still 35.4 Mb/s.

I then went into "bring the supplier to book mode", and complained.  Eventually getting through to a person who could help me, the line was checked at their end, with her stating there was a fault in the line / green box "in the street".  Within two hours BT / Openreach contacted me to make an appointment to come and check my lines INSIDE MY HOME;  I went along with it!

Tuesday finds an engineer inside my home checking my line and stating "everything is fine, you cannot expect higher speeds on your line ; in fact you have not been upgraded to the new package"  !!!!!! :o :o :o

The engineer got an ear bashing from me about what 'centre' had told me, and what the hell was any check on my internal wiring to do with a fault "in the street?!!"

After controlling my emotions, the following morning I eventually got through to a few BT 'agents' who gave me different stories of what was happening, with one cutting me off.  I checked my speed again and it had gone DOWN to 32.7 Mb/s!!!! I was actually told that I was "lucky" to get over 25 Mb/s on my line (I am within 3/4 mile from their main town exchange)!! They also kept on repeating the "added benefits" of my new BB package.  I made it clear they mattered not, it was the principle of being sold something as a key feature of the package, taking my money, and not being able to deliver anything like the speed being advertised.

After this I then 'blew' and made contact with the account closure department and ripped them apart stating very clearly that "I have been conned by false advertising and seeking financial gain by that practice".  You are advertising speeds for the Superfast Fibre Plus that cannot be attained even by half (Some of the BT staff, and Openreach engineer, eventually, when pushed, even admitted to that fact and could understand my point of view).  The agent for the account closure department was good, and she started a process to resolve all issues as much as possible.  After another 40 minutes on the phone they agreed to a credit for all the inconvenience and a failure to meet my expectations.  "Please could I stay with BT?"  I said I will see, but I at least would degrade to my previous Broadband package.  I left it with them.

That afternoon I checked my speed again and it had, at last gone UP to 37.9 MB/s the best I have ever seen.  I rang BT back up and told them I will keep to the new package on the understanding that the higher speed will be maintained, with them highlighting the new package will guarantee a 20 refund for every day the speed stays below 25 Mb/s (!!!!!)

Anyway, today a 30 credit has been applied to my account, but it has not stopped me from reporting BT to Ofcom about alleged "False Advertising to gain commercial advantage and financial reward".  As I told many of the BT staff, in retailing if we tried to sell a product that we knew could not meet the specifications advertised and the requirements of the customer, with additional payment being taken, then we risked prosecution.  This should apply to BT and all these telecommunication companies that promise the consumer the Earth when knowingly not being able to provide that level of service! >:( >:(
« Last Edit: 29 June 2019, 16:27:13 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Kevin Wood

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #1 on: 29 June 2019, 17:12:30 »

Broadband packages aren't honestly marketed by any of the suppliers, I'm afraid. It's as simple as that. If OFCOM weren't such a useless bunch of self-abusers the situation might be better.

Speed checks can also be misleading, though, and are meaningless unless you're using a machine that has a cable connection to the router.

It does sound to me that they shouldn't have sold you the upgrade, though, as it seems that your line is probably already at its limit, and they probably could have figured that out.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #2 on: 29 June 2019, 18:08:18 »

Broadband packages aren't honestly marketed by any of the suppliers, I'm afraid. It's as simple as that. If OFCOM weren't such a useless bunch of self-abusers the situation might be better.

Speed checks can also be misleading, though, and are meaningless unless you're using a machine that has a cable connection to the router.

It does sound to me that they shouldn't have sold you the upgrade, though, as it seems that your line is probably already at its limit, and they probably could have figured that out.

Yes indeed Kevin, and one of the better agents I spoke to actually admitted to that!!  They just could not defend BT and these advertised speeds, and even the Open reach guy specifically, after he backed up my speeds tests with his equipment with a load of technical guff that I quickly translated for him, stated the "limit of the line is just not up to those speeds" and "Few peoples lines are without the fibre connection to the green box which is still copper"!!!!!  That really got me fired up! >:( >:(


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STEMO

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #3 on: 29 June 2019, 18:40:48 »

I'm (supposedly) getting over 50Mbs, which is good, for 29.99 a month with free BT sport. But there's no way I'll be staying after the 12 months is up, it's just not done.
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dave the builder

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #4 on: 29 June 2019, 18:53:21 »

Sky recently did a "free upgrade"* for us from 35 to 75 Mb/s
just did a u switch check ,says 74 mb/s down, 19 mb/s up
that's copper telephone lines , not fiber to the door or whatever it's called

thing is, don't all suppliers use the same wires and networks anyway  :-\
 so whoever you go with ,your only going to get what the wires will do  :-\

*free upgrade if you don't count the 100 a month they get  ;D :D
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TheBoy

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #5 on: 29 June 2019, 18:56:31 »

The fact that you couldn't get the max speed from a lower service (was it 38M or 55M?) means that the 78M service wouldn't give faster downloads (but may boost uploads).

Your beef is with BT, not with Openreach, as your contract/service is with BT.  Remember, BT are not allowed to talk directly to Openreach (good ol' OFCOM, making everything worse for everyone).


Its highly likely that the speeds your are seeing are the best you can get - distance from exchange makes bugger all difference, its distance from the cab. Plus the age/condition of the copper wires between you and the cab. Plus what shit you have on the end of it, including phones.


The ISP can ask Wholesale to bugger around with profiles that can adjust the speed v stability ratios.
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #6 on: 29 June 2019, 18:58:07 »

Also, the number of other users in the same cables - as this has increased, my speeds have dropped from >70Mbps to under 60Mbps  (using the sync speed as a measurement, as speedtesters are all like cheap watches)
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STEMO

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #7 on: 29 June 2019, 18:58:29 »

With the stuff I actually do, I reckon 5 would be fine for me.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #8 on: 29 June 2019, 19:04:18 »

The fact that you couldn't get the max speed from a lower service (was it 38M or 55M?) means that the 78M service wouldn't give faster downloads (but may boost uploads).

Your beef is with BT, not with Openreach, as your contract/service is with BT.  Remember, BT are not allowed to talk directly to Openreach (good ol' OFCOM, making everything worse for everyone).


Its highly likely that the speeds your are seeing are the best you can get - distance from exchange makes bugger all difference, its distance from the cab. Plus the age/condition of the copper wires between you and the cab. Plus what shit you have on the end of it, including phones.


The ISP can ask Wholesale to bugger around with profiles that can adjust the speed v stability ratios.

Did I say any different TB? ::) :D
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Jimbob

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #9 on: 29 June 2019, 19:30:10 »

Out of interest, can you post the results of putting your phone number into this site : https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #10 on: 29 June 2019, 19:34:10 »

Out of interest, can you post the results of putting your phone number into this site : https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

I have, but I am using my iPad and cannot copy the page of results without showing my telephone number.  I will do it in the morning when I am using my PC and can edit out the number ;)

« Last Edit: 29 June 2019, 19:36:35 by Lizzie Zoom »
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STEMO

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #11 on: 29 June 2019, 20:12:00 »

Out of interest, can you post the results of putting your phone number into this site : https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

I have, but I am using my iPad and cannot copy the page of results without showing my telephone number.  I will do it in the morning when I am using my PC and can edit out the number ;)
Hmmm......you need a few lessons on your iPad. Here's mine from my iPad:

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Jimbob

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #12 on: 29 June 2019, 20:13:29 »

Out of interest, can you post the results of putting your phone number into this site : https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

I have, but I am using my iPad and cannot copy the page of results without showing my telephone number.  I will do it in the morning when I am using my PC and can edit out the number ;)
Hmmm......you need a few lessons on your iPad. Here's mine from my iPad:



A very good line!

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #13 on: 29 June 2019, 20:23:07 »

 ;D ;D ;D

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #14 on: 29 June 2019, 21:13:44 »

After controlling my emotions.....

[Lord Opti Mode On] This is difficult for most females! [Lord Opti Mode Off]

Well done Lizzie!  :y                                                                                                   :D ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #15 on: 30 June 2019, 09:08:42 »


Probably went the long way round, and what an effort it was, even on my PC!!:



I hope after all this these figures mean something to someone; they mean sweet FA to me!!!!

PS Us women can do anything.  Just watch how good the football is in the current World Cup!! 8) 8) ;D ;D ;D ;)
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #16 on: 30 June 2019, 10:24:07 »

Out of interest, can you post the results of putting your phone number into this site : https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

I have, but I am using my iPad and cannot copy the page of results without showing my telephone number.  I will do it in the morning when I am using my PC and can edit out the number ;)
Hmmm......you need a few lessons on your iPad. Here's mine from my iPad:



My iPad has a habit of freezing when dealing with anything complicated that on my PC I can do.  That is why I will always have the latter! :D :D :D ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #17 on: 30 June 2019, 14:27:11 »

Yes, that shows your line is poor quality, wheres as STMO's was as good as FTTC (inifinity) lines get, yours very much isnt, and your lucky to get the speeds you told us of, getting 30mbps on that line is quite good going to be honest!

Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #18 on: 30 June 2019, 14:53:11 »

Yes, that shows your line is poor quality, wheres as STMO's was as good as FTTC (inifinity) lines get, yours very much isnt, and your lucky to get the speeds you told us of, getting 30mbps on that line is quite good going to be honest!

Yes Jimbob, after studying the two reports I now understand what the situation is 8) :y

It really does reinforce my argument with BT that they should never be selling these Broadband upgrade packages on the key issue of dramatic increases in speed when they must know they are not achievable.

I certainly deserve that 30 credit I have been given, but Ofcom really should do more about this, what I would call, a national IT scandal!! How can a company sell the same service to two people, STEMO and me, at the set price when one is short changed / provided with half of the 'product'?  So it would be ok for a garage to sell a half a gallon of petrol for the same price as advertised for a whole gallon?!! What 'dangle berries'!!! >:( >:(

Twice today I have tried to get a BT Speed Test result, but I eventually get to the message:
"Can't fetch results
We weren't able to get speedtest results from your device.

Don't worry we'll continue and carry out some further checks."
>:( >:( >:( >:(
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #19 on: 01 July 2019, 10:14:10 »

Test reading this morning again gave me 37.9 Mb/s.

So, given everything said, I suppose I should at least be happy with that ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #20 on: 01 July 2019, 13:35:12 »

Lizzie

The problem ISPs have is that the speed you get is dependent on the cable-run distance of your router from the green cabinet in the street.  It all works like this for copper wires (fibre is probably similar but I don't know):

1  The electronics in the green cabinet can run up to about 100 Mb/sec.

2  If you live next door to the cabinet you can get 100 Mb/sec.  You get the following speeds where the left is from the Ofcom 2014 report and the right from increasebroadbandspeed.co.uk:

250m  65 Mb/s    77 Mb/s
500m  38 Mb/s    62 Mb/s
750m  30 Mb/s    40 Mb/s
1km    25 Mb/s    28 Mb/s
2km    12 Mb/s    16 Mb/s

Note this is the cable run distance and cables usually follow the roads.  I live 750 cable-metres from my green cabinet and BT gave me 39 Mb/s.

3.  When the electronics in the cabinet starts working it does so at a low speed because it does not know how distant you are.  It then keeps upping the speed until too many errors occur.  It then backs off the speed a bit.  It continuously monitors the line for errors and continuously adapts to the fastest possible speed.

4  If the ISP sells you a 38 Mb/s package the ISP puts a limit on the electronics saying "Don't go above 38 Mb/s even if it is possible because this person is paying for 38 Mb/s".  This limit is called the IP Profile for your line.  First level support don't know about it - when it got wrongly set for me (at 0.1 Mb/s!!) I had to go to managers to get it fixed.

So, if you are not getting what you think you should be getting, you need to check each factor.

5.  Be very careful with broadband filters.  If you connect them up incorrectly it can have the effect of randomly disconnecting the internet.  The best method is to use a "BT socket with integrated filter" as the master socket.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #21 on: 01 July 2019, 14:16:21 »

Thanks John, that is most useful! :-* :-* :y

I aim to keep on top of BT over this, and will be monitoring those speeds ;)

Funny how my speed test results have gone up to 37.9 Mb/2 when I was told I would be "lucky" to get over 30 Mb/s by at least two BT agents!! ::) ::)
« Last Edit: 01 July 2019, 14:17:54 by Lizzie Zoom »
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TheBoy

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #22 on: 01 July 2019, 18:03:18 »

Despite want has been said above, the technical maximum for most Openreach provided FTTC is 79Mbps down, 19Mbps up.

But as I said earlier, the maximum speed you can get is dependent on the length of the wire from the router to the FTTC cab, the layout of wiring in the house (it it uses a star config, you get too much signal bouce), whether or not you have the ringer wire connected (its a ficking good antenna to pick up interference and add it to your line), how many other users in your same underground (or aerial if rural) cable are heavy users (crosstalk) and the profile applied to you line (basically which compromise you want between speed and stability), and what shit you have plugged in to your line.


Its a legal Ofcom requirement that these services state an "up to xxMbps" speed, and a voluntary code of practice that most ISPs have signed up to to give a reasonable estimate of what you will get.  Obviously estimates are challenging due to the nature of the beast, so need a little leeway either way.

I personally get above my estimate on both my lines, one Zen, one BT Business.  But then my internal wiring is absolutely bang on geared up for best possible DSL speed.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #23 on: 01 July 2019, 18:12:15 »

Despite want has been said above, the technical maximum for most Openreach provided FTTC is 79Mbps down, 19Mbps up.

But as I said earlier, the maximum speed you can get is dependent on the length of the wire from the router to the FTTC cab, the layout of wiring in the house (it it uses a star config, you get too much signal bouce), whether or not you have the ringer wire connected (its a ficking good antenna to pick up interference and add it to your line), how many other users in your same underground (or aerial if rural) cable are heavy users (crosstalk) and the profile applied to you line (basically which compromise you want between speed and stability), and what shit you have plugged in to your line.


Its a legal Ofcom requirement that these services state an "up to xxMbps" speed, and a voluntary code of practice that most ISPs have signed up to to give a reasonable estimate of what you will get.  Obviously estimates are challenging due to the nature of the beast, so need a little leeway either way.

I personally get above my estimate on both my lines, one Zen, one BT Business.  But then my internal wiring is absolutely bang on geared up for best possible DSL speed.

And that covers the point I have raised with the BT staff, who not once, confirmed what limits I had on my line. Ofcom has now also confirmed BT should have done so before I agreed to the upgrade, but. as you know they are weak and feeble, and just referred me to the Ombudsman - Communications as BT accepted the "error" and have given me a credit!!

I have my 30 credit, and my Broadband speed is keeping at 37.9 Mb/2, so I have achieved whatever I could.  :D ;)   
« Last Edit: 01 July 2019, 18:13:48 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #24 on: 01 July 2019, 18:26:47 »

Despite want has been said above, the technical maximum for most Openreach provided FTTC is 79Mbps down, 19Mbps up.

But as I said earlier, the maximum speed you can get is dependent on the length of the wire from the router to the FTTC cab, the layout of wiring in the house (it it uses a star config, you get too much signal bouce), whether or not you have the ringer wire connected (its a ficking good antenna to pick up interference and add it to your line), how many other users in your same underground (or aerial if rural) cable are heavy users (crosstalk) and the profile applied to you line (basically which compromise you want between speed and stability), and what shit you have plugged in to your line.


Its a legal Ofcom requirement that these services state an "up to xxMbps" speed, and a voluntary code of practice that most ISPs have signed up to to give a reasonable estimate of what you will get.  Obviously estimates are challenging due to the nature of the beast, so need a little leeway either way.

I personally get above my estimate on both my lines, one Zen, one BT Business.  But then my internal wiring is absolutely bang on geared up for best possible DSL speed.

And that covers the point I have raised with the BT staff, who not once, confirmed what limits I had on my line. Ofcom has now also confirmed BT should have done so before I agreed to the upgrade, but. as you know they are weak and feeble, and just referred me to the Ombudsman - Communications as BT accepted the "error" and have given me a credit!!

I have my 30 credit, and my Broadband speed is keeping at 37.9 Mb/2, so I have achieved whatever I could.  :D ;)
No, useless and incompetent.

TBH, given your are borderline between your old (presumably 39/9 service) to getting faster speeds, I can accept the attend to boost it, particularly if you want better upload speeds.  But it didn't improve sufficiently, so the ISP did the correct thing and regraded back down (presumably?), and compensated you for messing you about slightly.
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #25 on: 01 July 2019, 18:47:58 »

Despite want has been said above, the technical maximum for most Openreach provided FTTC is 79Mbps down, 19Mbps up.

But as I said earlier, the maximum speed you can get is dependent on the length of the wire from the router to the FTTC cab, the layout of wiring in the house (it it uses a star config, you get too much signal bouce), whether or not you have the ringer wire connected (its a ficking good antenna to pick up interference and add it to your line), how many other users in your same underground (or aerial if rural) cable are heavy users (crosstalk) and the profile applied to you line (basically which compromise you want between speed and stability), and what shit you have plugged in to your line.


Its a legal Ofcom requirement that these services state an "up to xxMbps" speed, and a voluntary code of practice that most ISPs have signed up to to give a reasonable estimate of what you will get.  Obviously estimates are challenging due to the nature of the beast, so need a little leeway either way.

I personally get above my estimate on both my lines, one Zen, one BT Business.  But then my internal wiring is absolutely bang on geared up for best possible DSL speed.

And that covers the point I have raised with the BT staff, who not once, confirmed what limits I had on my line. Ofcom has now also confirmed BT should have done so before I agreed to the upgrade, but. as you know they are weak and feeble, and just referred me to the Ombudsman - Communications as BT accepted the "error" and have given me a credit!!

I have my 30 credit, and my Broadband speed is keeping at 37.9 Mb/2, so I have achieved whatever I could.  :D ;)
No, useless and incompetent.

TBH, given your are borderline between your old (presumably 39/9 service) to getting faster speeds, I can accept the attend to boost it, particularly if you want better upload speeds.  But it didn't improve sufficiently, so the ISP did the correct thing and regraded back down (presumably?), and compensated you for messing you about slightly.

I cannot say they did TB, as I have stayed on the upgraded Broadband, BT have increased the speed (as far as I can tell by repeated speed tests) from a best of 35.4 to 37.9 Mb/s** and given me the credit.  As stated I will continue to monitor the situation closely and may well be in touch with BT if any deficiencies with speed appear and claim the "guarantees" they promise if the service falls short of 20. ;)

I am certainly going to get BT's confirmation of the Guaranteed Speed they can promise me, and the kick in of the credits plus immediate assistance to put right.

** Just re-tested and right now I am getting 40.1 Mb/s 8)
« Last Edit: 01 July 2019, 18:49:52 by Lizzie Zoom »
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TheBoy

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #26 on: 01 July 2019, 19:07:24 »

Over the first 10days of a regrade, the speed will fluctuate, as the DSLAM experiments with the best speed for the profile
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #27 on: 01 July 2019, 19:17:55 »

Over the first 10days of a regrade, the speed will fluctuate, as the DSLAM experiments with the best speed for the profile

Right, thanks TB! :y :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #28 on: 02 July 2019, 13:21:20 »

Over the first 10days of a regrade, the speed will fluctuate, as the DSLAM experiments with the best speed for the profile

Right, thanks TB! :y :y

Well it is holding this morning at 40.1 Mb/s, so that is a big improvement on my worst reading a week ago of 32.7 Mb/s 8) 8)

So TB, if I understand you correctly, the more I use the internet and download the better the average speed will get? :D ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #29 on: 02 July 2019, 17:47:46 »

So TB, if I understand you correctly, the more I use the internet and download the better the average speed will get? :D ;)
No.
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #30 on: 02 July 2019, 18:14:38 »

So TB, if I understand you correctly, the more I use the internet and download the better the average speed will get? :D ;)
No.

Well, how then pray can I ensure they maintain the higher speeds if they are monitoring use and adjusting whatever they adjust, as you stated? ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #31 on: 02 July 2019, 18:18:10 »

So TB, if I understand you correctly, the more I use the internet and download the better the average speed will get? :D ;)
No.

Well, how then pray can I ensure they maintain the higher speeds if they are monitoring use and adjusting whatever they adjust, as you stated? ;)
You can't.  Its an automatic relearning process.  The DSLAM may decide your current speed is too unstable, so notch it down a bit to gain stability.
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #32 on: 02 July 2019, 18:20:31 »

don't they look at the cat video counter  ;D
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #33 on: 02 July 2019, 18:49:32 »

So TB, if I understand you correctly, the more I use the internet and download the better the average speed will get? :D ;)
No.

Well, how then pray can I ensure they maintain the higher speeds if they are monitoring use and adjusting whatever they adjust, as you stated? ;)
You can't.  Its an automatic relearning process.  The DSLAM may decide your current speed is too unstable, so notch it down a bit to gain stability.

Right, thank you TB! :y

Remember I have little understanding of these IT matters and what seems simple for you is bloody hard for me!! ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #34 on: 02 July 2019, 18:51:03 »

don't they look at the cat video counter  ;D

If they noted how often I used Broadband to be on the OOF I would be up to maximum speed, but of course that is not how it works apparently! :P ;D ;D ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #35 on: 02 July 2019, 20:23:36 »

Best thing you can do, is not to reboot / unplug your router.  Leave it on and dont touch it unless you have problems.

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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #36 on: 03 July 2019, 10:16:27 »

Best thing you can do, is not to reboot / unplug your router.  Leave it on and dont touch it unless you have problems.

Thanks Jimbob, my router does remain on constantly as a matter of course,so I will now definitely ensure that remains the case :y
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #37 on: 03 July 2019, 10:32:41 »

.........and the speed is holding at 40.1 Mb/s!! 8) 8) 8) :D ;)
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Re: BT Broadband Fight
« Reply #38 on: 11 July 2019, 14:52:49 »

Today the speed has hit 43.8 Mb/s!

They completed whatever they had to do, finally, this morning at 0900.

With a 30 credit in my pocket I have now no complaints.  Will do me - for now! ;D ;D ;)
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