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Author Topic: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot  (Read 822 times)

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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #45 on: 08 July 2019, 18:26:21 »

Just when I thought I had a plan!! :o :o :o

So, to recap I have bubbles showing around that flat area around the wheel arches before it goes to the rounded part of the quarter panel.

The rust on the surface is always coming from within - I have often been informed - so whatever you do on the surface, unless you treat the inner area I will be wasting my time.

But actually the rust is coming up from the lip that goes around the leading edge of the arch, which should be cut out for a permanent solution. The rust is not coming from within the skins of the panel.

Now which one is right please, as I have got mixed messages here.

Is there actually a correct way of doing any work on the bubbles, apart from cutting out the affected lip which I cannot do, and I am not prepared to spend 1,000 this year to get the work done professionally by a specialist bodywork guy?

And no, this Omega is too good to scrap or walk away from! :D :D

But I certainly do have a thumping headache now!! ::) ::)

 :-\ :-\ :-\ ::) ::) ::) ;)

« Last Edit: 08 July 2019, 18:28:50 by Lizzie Zoom »
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Nick W

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #46 on: 08 July 2019, 19:02:29 »


But actually the rust is coming up from the lip that goes around the leading edge of the arch, which should be cut out for a permanent solution. The rust is not coming from within the skins of the panel.


Is there actually a correct way of doing any work on the bubbles, apart from cutting out the affected lip which I cannot do, and I am not prepared to spend 1,000 this year to get the work done professionally by a specialist bodywork guy?



First - paint doesn't adhere well to edges. So grot gets under the edge of the flange, and creeps up. It doesn't just do that on one side of the panel! It's much more likely to creep between the welded together panels and stay there. If you have rust bubbling through the paint, it is already much worse than you can see. Rust is ALWAYS worse than you can see, it's just a matter of how bad.


Second - the cutting and welding is the cheap part of the job, it's finishing the repair and painting so that it doesn't show that's expensive. If it shows, it looks shit and you'll wish you had never bothered.


This arch isn't rotten(it's accident damage), although the part under the bumper was and needed welding.





Note how far up the panel the repair is sanded - I painted the whole quarter to get a decent finish. A welded repair would have taken more. I could have
done it to the bodyline, but that would have just been different work and made for a metre long paint blend, rather than a tiny one on the roof pillar.
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dave the builder

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #47 on: 08 July 2019, 19:18:07 »

Differing opinions

my rust treatment kept my carlton arches fine , when I sold it last year they where fine , along with never being welded anywhere on the car (other than when it was built obviously)
Daily driver , not garaged , had a hard life carrying all my stuff and i towed too, mileage was about 160k IIRC

so 10 years older and double the mileage of the omega


if it is pointless  treating, painting and under-sealing then what do people put on the new steel  :-\ or is it magic metal  ;D
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #48 on: 08 July 2019, 20:33:15 »

Differing opinions

my rust treatment kept my carlton arches fine , when I sold it last year they where fine , along with never being welded anywhere on the car (other than when it was built obviously)
Daily driver , not garaged , had a hard life carrying all my stuff and i towed too, mileage was about 160k IIRC

so 10 years older and double the mileage of the omega


if it is pointless  treating, painting and under-sealing then what do people put on the new steel  :-\ or is it magic metal  ;D

Agreed :y

I think I will just have to do what I think is right for me. ;)
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #49 on: 08 July 2019, 20:37:20 »


But actually the rust is coming up from the lip that goes around the leading edge of the arch, which should be cut out for a permanent solution. The rust is not coming from within the skins of the panel.


Is there actually a correct way of doing any work on the bubbles, apart from cutting out the affected lip which I cannot do, and I am not prepared to spend 1,000 this year to get the work done professionally by a specialist bodywork guy?



First - paint doesn't adhere well to edges. So grot gets under the edge of the flange, and creeps up. It doesn't just do that on one side of the panel! It's much more likely to creep between the welded together panels and stay there. If you have rust bubbling through the paint, it is already much worse than you can see. Rust is ALWAYS worse than you can see, it's just a matter of how bad.


Second - the cutting and welding is the cheap part of the job, it's finishing the repair and painting so that it doesn't show that's expensive. If it shows, it looks shit and you'll wish you had never bothered.


This arch isn't rotten(it's accident damage), although the part under the bumper was and needed welding.





Note how far up the panel the repair is sanded - I painted the whole quarter to get a decent finish. A welded repair would have taken more. I could have
done it to the bodyline, but that would have just been different work and made for a metre long paint blend, rather than a tiny one on the roof pillar.

Sorry Nick, but that example in your picture is far worse than mine. Also my rust is just a few bubbles alone the edge of the arch, with your example looking far worse along that area, although you say that is accident damage.

I do take your points on board though, thanks, but now I must do what I have to do ;) :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #50 on: 08 July 2019, 20:55:00 »

.....anyway thanks to all who have given advice and guidance, which is very much appreciated 8) 8) :y

But, this is my challenge and now I must make the decisions right for me and my Omega. That is my responsibility, God help me!! :o :o :o ;D ;)
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Nick W

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #51 on: 08 July 2019, 22:16:56 »


if it is pointless  treating, painting and under-sealing then what do people put on the new steel  :-\ or is it magic metal  ;D

Agreed :y

I think I will just have to do what I think is right for me. ;)


It's pointless applying treatments after the rust has started. Paint on a car is there to preserve the metal. That it looks pretty is a secondary consideration.


The specks you see along the lower edge of the arch in my picture are rust. I didn't know they were there until I ground off the paint. It's not unusual to find what looks like worm trails of rust under perfectly good paint. If rust is bubbling under the paint, imagine how much worse the metal is.
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Doctor Gollum

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #52 on: 09 July 2019, 01:24:50 »

Seconded...

The specks on Nick's flange are the precursor to your rust bubbles.

Also you forget that each sheet of metal has two sides ::)

Those flange specs are on the outside panel...  ;)

Either replace the arch/quarter or wait until you have to (and then need to do the inner wing as well)  ;)
« Last Edit: 09 July 2019, 01:28:02 by Doctor Gollum »
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #53 on: 09 July 2019, 09:16:30 »

Thanks Nick and DG :y :y
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #54 on: 09 July 2019, 10:31:12 »


if it is pointless  treating, painting and under-sealing then what do people put on the new steel  :-\ or is it magic metal  ;D

Agreed :y

I think I will just have to do what I think is right for me. ;)


It's pointless applying treatments after the rust has started. Paint on a car is there to preserve the metal. That it looks pretty is a secondary consideration.


The specks you see along the lower edge of the arch in my picture are rust. I didn't know they were there until I ground off the paint. It's not unusual to find what looks like worm trails of rust under perfectly good paint. If rust is bubbling under the paint, imagine how much worse the metal is.

Thanks Nick. :y 

So once you had rubbed the paint off, which I at the very least must do with mine, what did you do after that please? :-\ :-\
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johnnydog

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #55 on: 09 July 2019, 11:07:16 »

Those black speckles in the photo on the lower edge if the wheelarch are corrosion in the metal. I have seen body places rub down surface rust (the actual brown rust that we all know as corrosion) but then paint over the remaining black speckles as the surface is smooth after sanding. The owner gets his car back all nice and shiny, only to find within a few weeks bubbles appear again. These black speckles in the metal have caused this. They need to be ground out if just surface rust, cut out if from underneath or at the very least treated, or any paint applied, no matter how good, will bubble in a short space of time. The black speckles can be very very miniscule, but need to be fully removed by whichever method is appropriate before painting.
Being honest Lizzie, from your questions, I would leave it as if is for the time being or you will end up with a wheelarch looking far worse than it already is, and whenever you are able, get the job done professionally, enduring that a proper job is done, rather than cosmetic.
Unless you have a good deal of experience in bodywork, whether that be DIY or professionally, especially with metallics which are two  coat systems (base / colour coat and then laquer, and that's after primers etc)  the result will not be what you expect, and you will regret attempting it! It is an art getting a perfect unblemished finish that comes with plenty of practise and experience.
When you are out and about, have a look at older cars say in a supermarket car park - there are certain to be some where the owner has attempted a repair, and see what you think of the result.
Alternatively if you can get your hands on an old door panel for example, put a couple of dents in it, and practise repairing and painting that first before your own car! Then make your decision about your abilities before starting your own!
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #56 on: 09 July 2019, 11:33:30 »

Those black speckles in the photo on the lower edge if the wheelarch are corrosion in the metal. I have seen body places rub down surface rust (the actual brown rust that we all know as corrosion) but then paint over the remaining black speckles as the surface is smooth after sanding. The owner gets his car back all nice and shiny, only to find within a few weeks bubbles appear again. These black speckles in the metal have caused this. They need to be ground out if just surface rust, cut out if from underneath or at the very least treated, or any paint applied, no matter how good, will bubble in a short space of time. The black speckles can be very very miniscule, but need to be fully removed by whichever method is appropriate before painting.
Being honest Lizzie, from your questions, I would leave it as if is for the time being or you will end up with a wheelarch looking far worse than it already is, and whenever you are able, get the job done professionally, enduring that a proper job is done, rather than cosmetic.
Unless you have a good deal of experience in bodywork,
whether that be DIY or professionally, especially with metallics which are two  coat systems (base / colour coat and then laquer, and that's after primers etc)  the result will not be what you expect, and you will regret attempting it! It is an art getting a perfect unblemished finish that comes with plenty of practise and experience.
When you are out and about, have a look at older cars say in a supermarket car park - there are certain to be some where the owner has attempted a repair, and see what you think of the result.
Alternatively if you can get your hands on an old door panel for example, put a couple of dents in it, and practise repairing and painting that first before your own car! Then make your decision about your abilities before starting your own!

Thanks! :y

I am fast realising it is best for me to do very little, as, NO, I am no good at body work repairs beyond a very basic standard ametaur level. My once brother-in-law, who I saw build his car body shop business from a back street in Bromley to running a company with contracts to rebuild, respray and generally work on the bodywork of top of the range cars, such as Bentleys and Rolls Royces, with contracts with major dealerships (Jack Barclay) and insurance companies, he tried to teach me the basics of his profession, which incidentally my husband could certainly never do, but I just could never get to those levels even!! ::) ::) ::)

So, I do what I can!! :D ;)
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Nick W

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #57 on: 09 July 2019, 13:29:16 »


Thanks Nick. :y 

So once you had rubbed the paint off, which I at the very least must do with mine, what did you do after that please? :-\ :-\


By doing exactly what I've repeatedly written. But I had caught it at the start of the process, so a wire brush on my grinder removed the rust, and revealed shiny but slightly pitted metal. Which I filled, primed and painted as part of the car park damage that had made me start the job.


The rust had started because the paint on the flange inside the arc was poor, and moisture crept up underneath. Once I'd finished the paint I made sure the edges were well sealed with sealant and underseal.


The time to apply the rust treatments to your car was abiut 15years ago.
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Lizzie Zoom

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #58 on: 09 July 2019, 15:55:07 »


Thanks Nick. :y 

So once you had rubbed the paint off, which I at the very least must do with mine, what did you do after that please? :-\ :-\


By doing exactly what I've repeatedly written. But I had caught it at the start of the process, so a wire brush on my grinder removed the rust, and revealed shiny but slightly pitted metal. Which I filled, primed and painted as part of the car park damage that had made me start the job.


The rust had started because the paint on the flange inside the arc was poor, and moisture crept up underneath. Once I'd finished the paint I made sure the edges were well sealed with sealant and underseal.


The time to apply the rust treatments to your car was abiut 15years ago.

How very true!! :y :y 

We can only blame the manufacturers for that one.  There again that was obviously a business decision of the many as it kept a cost factor to almost non existent, their prices competitive and gave built in obsolescence to ensure demand for new cars continued apace.  They, no doubt, never thought our Omega's would still be on the road almost two decades later! ::) ;D ;D ;)
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Nick W

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Re: Infamous Rear Wheel Arch Rot
« Reply #59 on: 09 July 2019, 16:31:30 »


We can only blame the manufacturers for that one.  There again that was obviously a business decision of the many as it kept a cost factor to almost non existent, their prices competitive and gave built in obsolescence to ensure demand for new cars continued apace.  They, no doubt, never thought our Omega's would still be on the road almost two decades later! ::) ;D ;D ;)


did you have a liquid lunch ??? ?


Cars are made of steel sheet welded together. Most of the resulting structue gets coated when it's dipped. Then the bits that can be reached are painted. The car spends its life outside in the weather with very little attention.


Put all that together, and it's not going to last forever. Look around and count just how few cars make it past 25 years.


Omegas are better than most cars of their contemporaries - the body is from the seventies, so that's Granadas, 5 series, CXs, Renault 30, MB200 etc which are all notorious rotboxes.
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